What No 10 Will Really Be Like For Andy Burnham

Summary

---

Newscast — What No 10 Will Really Be Like For Andy Burnham

BBC News — July 19, 2026
Main Host: Paddy O’Connell
Cohosts: Laura Kuenssberg
Guests: Stuart Wood (former Gordon Brown/Ed Miliband advisor), Lucia Hodgson (former Boris Johnson/Andrea Leadsom advisor), Lucy Powell (Deputy Labour Leader), David Blunkett (former Home Secretary)

---

Episode Overview

The episode examines what life inside 10 Downing Street will be like for Andy Burnham, set to become Prime Minister the next day. Drawing on the lived experiences of senior special advisers from previous administrations, the podcast explores the emotional, political, and practical transitions of leadership; Burnham’s early policy decisions; and the pressures and opportunities facing a new prime minister.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Human Realities of No. 10 Transitions

• Emotional, not just political, change: Both guests highlighted the personal toll and sense of closure for staff and leaders on their "first day" and "final day" in Downing Street.
  • Stuart Wood: “When we arrived in 2007, after 10 years of Tony Blair...all our kind of assistants were lined up...they all had tears in their eyes...Three years later when we left, I realised why. They just said goodbye to people they'd worked with twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week for years.” (02:27)
  • Lucia Hodgson: “Some of the civil servants have been very moved and upset by the goodbyes and they've got no time to sort of dry their eyes and sort of welcome the new team.” (03:06)

2. Burnham’s First Policy Announcements & Priorities

• Digital ID Scheme dropped: Burnham’s team immediately scraps the digital ID policy, signalling a clear break from Keir Starmer’s approach.

  • Lucy Powell: “This is an opportunity to reset, to refresh...the Digital ID scheme is one such example. It might not have cost a huge amount of money, but will have cost some money over time...It takes attention away as well.” (04:39–05:15)
  • David Blunkett (critical): “Within ten years...there will be a coherent, well-protected identity system...It will be necessary...But one of Andy Burnham's first decisions is wrong.” (05:47–06:27)

• Likely Thames Water intervention: A form of ‘special administration’ for Thames Water expected, leaning into Burnham’s stated desire to end “forty years of neoliberalism.”

  • Stuart Wood: “He wants something totemic to show that he’s reversing what he thinks has been a terrible settlement for the country that started with the Thatcher privatisations.” (08:24)

• Showcasing change: Anticipation that Burnham will use symbolic gestures (e.g., first cabinet meeting outside London) and a rapid cascade of announcements to establish his difference from predecessors.

  • Stuart Wood: “The first Cabinet meeting will not be taking place in London, for example...that would be the kind of thing you do to show this is a different kind of follow.” (11:37–11:45)

3. The Tension Between Continuity and Radical Change

• Manifesto vs. Revolution: Burnham told voters he’d stick to the 2024 manifesto but also hinted at bold reversals of policy.

  • Laura Kuenssberg: “Andy Burnham says, don't worry, I'm going to stick to the manifesto that you voted for two years ago...then says, I'm going to try and reverse everything that's happened in the last four decades. How are those two things both going to be true?” (10:24–10:49)
  • Stuart Wood: “That is the tension...you’re both. Andy Burnham's got a little bit more permission to be a change Prime Minister, because, sad to say, Keir Starmer has not been popular.” (10:51)

• Laser focus on cost of living: No matter the narrative, the public cares most about cost of living—Burnham must show effort and progress fast.

  • Stuart Wood: “The public's decided what the big issue is...It's cost of living...They've got to show that they're trying to do something like cost of living.” (12:31)
  • Lucia Hodgson: “If you want to talk about ten things, people aren’t going to remember what they are and they’re going to be wondering why things still feel expensive...remain laser focused on the biggest difference electorally.” (40:45)

4. What Makes a Successful New PM

• Visibility, authenticity, and storytelling: Burnham’s strengths are noted as an “explainer in chief”—direct public communication, high visibility on visits, and authentic engagement.

  • Laura Kuenssberg: “He's very easy in different settings...he knows he's good at [communicating], whether it’s a class of kids or a big senior politician, equally at ease.” (21:02)
  • Stuart Wood: “We haven’t really had public explanation...I think Andy will be a better sort of narrative giver...but you’ve got to explain and then respond.” (19:32)

• Pressing need for quick impact: The panel agrees Burnham may have as little as 3–6 months to prove he’s making change, especially with Parliament going into recess.

  • Laura Kuenssberg: “His allies reckoned he has maybe six, maybe eight months to show an impact...how pressing do you feel it is for him to show not just that he's in charge, but he's doing things that will make a difference?” (14:37–15:24)

• Strategic control and delegation: The lack of a robust 10 Downing team means the PM must learn to rely on Cabinet and departments.

  • Stuart Wood: “In number 10 there aren’t many people there at all...that means they have to rely on the departments to get their stuff done...it’s a very strange way of working for a lot of the people.” (31:55)

5. The Physical and Cultural Realities of No. 10

• No. 10 as an imperfect workplace: Both guests describe its physical constraints, impractical layout, lack of food or signal, and how the building itself is a metaphor for the government’s bureaucratic challenges.
  • Stuart Wood: “There’s this café in the basement...it’s a first world problem if you're a special adviser...very difficult to get food.” (30:00)
  • Lucia Hodgson: “Signal is a big problem, actually...you could get a decent slice of toast in the morning and then you would just go out of the building to try and find something.” (30:31)
  • Laura Kuenssberg: “None of them think the government works well...the UK government that spends more than a trillion thinks that...it works well on behalf of citizens.” (33:03)

6. Personal Challenges for Burnham

• Maintaining connection and authenticity: Now as PM, Burnham will find it harder to keep direct public engagement, an important source of ideas and motivation for him.

  • Laura Kuenssberg: “Some of the people close to him, Stuart, have said they’re worried he might lose that connection...that he might lose that.” (26:46–27:20)

• Pressures on family life and personal privacy: The scrutiny and adaptation required for Burnham’s family is underscored:

  • Stuart Wood: “Think of Andy’s wife and kids...their world is about to be absolutely transformed: a mixture of enforced privacy and unrelenting scrutiny.” (40:15)

7. Transition Rituals & Political Theatre

• Cabinet reshuffles and staff transitions: The episode describes “Transition half hour”—the literal reshuffling of rooms, staff goodbyes, and arrival of the new team.

  • Stuart Wood: “There’s this extraordinary moment...Transition half hour, 45 minutes...reshuffle the furniture...you say, oh, we’ll have that room ready and get rid of that...quite extraordinary moment.” (34:02)

• First announcements and theatre of change: The choreography and optics of “day one”—who is appointed, who appears on camera, how the Cabinet is assembled—is all part of projecting a new administration’s purpose.

8. Cabinet Predictions and Labour’s Inner Circle

• Speculation on Cabinet appointments: Listeners submit predictions on key roles; discussion about likely choices, including Ed Miliband, Rachel Reeves, Shabana Mahmood, and the tension for outgoing Keir Starmer’s allies.
  • Listener Trevor: “Chancellor Ed Miliband. Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood. Foreign Secretary Yvette Cooper...Consolation prize for Rachel Reeves, Chief Whip.” (37:10)
  • Stuart Wood: “None of the senior people know, as far as I can work out, what jobs...they’re keeping it to themselves...they’ve got huge power.” (22:35)

---

Notable Quotes

• “Years of therapy.”
  —Stuart Wood, on surviving political life in No. 10 (02:03)

• “It’s about being laser focused on the cost of living, laser focused on rewiring the economy...clearing the decks of all the other things that might distract and take away from that.”
  —Lucy Powell (05:15)

• “But one of Andy Burnham’s first decisions is wrong...He’s the Prime Minister now. I’m just a guy in the House of Lords giving advice when I’m asked.”
  —Lord David Blunkett (06:23)

• “The first Cabinet meeting will not be in London, for example...that’s the sort of thing...to show this is a different kind of follow.”
  —Stuart Wood (11:37)

• “The public is not tolerant of politicians right now.”
  —Laura Kuenssberg (14:37)

• “You don’t really know the full character of someone until they get the job.”
  —Stuart Wood (21:39)

• “He loves meeting people...it can be annoying because he’s sometimes late because he’s still having a conversation with someone that he bumped into on the way.”
  —Laura Kuenssberg (26:20)

• “It’s incredibly tough to fight for the time to be yourself. If that's your brand...I hope he's got people around him who just insist on it.”
  —Stuart Wood (27:19)

• “If you want to talk about ten things, people aren't going to remember what they are and they're going to be wondering why things still feel expensive. Remain laser focused on it.”
  —Lucia Hodgson (40:45)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:46 — Episode introduction, personal experiences of entering/leaving No. 10
• 04:08 — The scrapping of digital ID: rationale and reactions
• 05:47 — David Blunkett responds with criticism
• 08:01 — Discussion: Thames Water and utility intervention
• 09:18 — Burnham vs. Starmer: signaling radical change
• 12:31 — Cost of living: public priorities
• 13:04 — How Burnham might tackle cost-of-living policies (buses, VAT)
• 15:24 — The importance of pace: public impatience for results
• 17:16 — Being PM: Importance of personality and first acts
• 19:32 — Explainer-in-chief: public communication and accountability
• 20:54 — Comparison to Boris Johnson and the power of visibility
• 21:39 — Burnham’s capacity for leadership debated
• 22:35 — The secrecy and strategy of cabinet appointments
• 24:00 — Burnham’s key advisers and inner circle
• 28:29 — The dysfunctions of the No. 10 building
• 31:55 — How the set-up of No. 10 limits prime ministerial power
• 33:03 — The deep flaws in UK government’s machinery
• 34:02 — The rituals of prime ministerial transition
• 37:10 — Listener cabinet predictions and discussion
• 40:15 — The enormous, personal cost for PM’s family
• 41:19 — Final thoughts: focus, messengers, and comms strategy

---

Memorable Moments

• “He’s not the Messiah…naughty boy.” Quick-witted Burnham in the Commons, referencing Monty Python. (17:16–17:22)
• First acts ritual: The new PM’s handwritten nuclear letters—the solemn handover of national security responsibilities. (17:42–18:18)
• No. 10 sandwich runs: Staff lamenting the difficulty of getting a bite to eat in Downing Street. (30:11–30:31)

---

Summary

This episode offers an in-depth, candid exploration into the realities of becoming Prime Minister, using Andy Burnham’s imminent move into No. 10 as a prism. It draws expertise from those who have experienced the intense highs and lows of Downing Street, mixes sharp policy analysis (on the axed digital ID scheme and looming water interventions) with a real focus on the emotional and practical challenges of leadership, and outlines the vital first days—where symbolic and substantive decisions must harmonize if Burnham is to survive an impatient, cost-of-living-weary public. The need to balance authenticity, communication, and ruthless focus dominates; as does the shadow cast by dysfunctional government machinery and the personal toll on a leader’s inner circle. For listeners, it’s a rich, revealing guide to the crossroads of personality, power, and practicality at the heart of British politics.

---

Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK

[Stuart Wood]

Odoo providing tools for

[Paddy O'Connell]

businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, Odoo is committed to providing it.

[Stuart Wood]

Learn [e-mail] Close your eyes.

[Pura Advertiser]

Summer smells like sunshine, fresh citrus and salty air. What if your living room could feel just like that? With Pura's new summer collection, it can restore your sense of well being with fragrances designed to move with your day. From bright, energizing mornings to soft, relaxing evenings. Make the invisible unforgettable. This season, visit Pur.com to find your new favorite summer scent.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, we're learning more and more about andy Burnham's number 10.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We are. The day before he walks through the shiny black door for the first time as Prime Minister, we are going to try and tell you a bit what number 10 will look like with the benefit of a lovely duet of people. Two people who've gone through the doors themselves on the new Prime Prime Minister's first day and who've also had the horror of having to leave.

[Paddy O'Connell]

All on this Sunday's newscast.

[Lucy Powell]

Newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[Stuart Wood]

I will resign as leader of the Labor Party.

[Lucia Hodgson]

And what will you do?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Stare at a wall?

[Stuart Wood]

Humanity's next great voyage begins. You know, I like my bosses. I'll come on to them. It's supposed to be me as a doctor, thinking about it like a panter helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's Laura in the studio and with us. Would you like to introduce yourselves? My lord, I think we're meant to tell you.

[Stuart Wood]

Yeah, please doff your cap. I'm Stuart Wood, Labour member of the House of Lords, former special advisor to Gordon Brown for 10 years and then adviser to Ed Miliband for five years.

[Lucia Hodgson]

I'm Lucia Hodgson. I'm a former advisor to Boris Johnson and Andrea Leadsome during the Brexit years and I now am a co founder of Charles B Strategy.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And you both look remarkably well on having gone through those very traumatic and deep political experiences.

[Stuart Wood]

Years of therapy.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Stuart, were you there on Gordon Brown's day one and his final day?

[Stuart Wood]

I was, yes. I mean, Gordon actually had two final days because he left number 10 when the election happened and then there was the indeterminate result and he went back in squatting for five days and I was one of the few people he brought back in, which was weird because we weren't allowed to use our computers or plug things in.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So, you know the Keir Starmer and the Andy Burnham feeling.

[Stuart Wood]

I do, yeah.

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

Yeah.

[Stuart Wood]

It's very. It's very strange. It's very strange. When we arrived in 2007, after 10 years of Tony Blair, all the advisors queue up, go through what's called the link door. There's this sort of secret Star Trek door between the cabinet office at 70 Whitehall goes into the back of Downing Street. And we walked through and all the. All our kind of assistants were lined up and we were matched off like a kind of dating agency. Went to your room and they all had tears in their eyes. And we thought, oh, my God, they must really hate us. You know, it must be. All these Blairites have told us we held them at the Brat. And I thought, why? I. I realized three years later when we left, because they just said goodbye to people they'd work 24 hours a day with seven days a week for years.

[BBC Newscast Outro Host]

Yeah.

[Stuart Wood]

And it was a human thing and that's what it was about.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Similar. So, yeah, you're. I. I knew some of them from the May era and some of the civil servants that you would see up in the gallery and work with on a few sort of press releases and things like that. And you go in and it is that thing. They've sort of. Some of them have been very moved and upset by sort of the goodbyes and they've got no time to sort of dry their eyes and sort of welco the new team. But equally, I think it was easier that I did know some of them and I think they knew some of the personalities they would be getting through the door and that wasn't necessarily a bad thing for them.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So interesting. One of the things you always say, Patty, rightly, is that let's remember that politicians are human beings and their staffers are also human beings and they volunteer for public life with all the scrutiny and knocks and hard things that comes with it, but they are also human beings. So we are going to talk a bit about. A bit more about the changeover and what that's like, and you've given us a great picture of what it can really feel like. But we do know, Paddy, a couple of new things about some of Andy Barnum's plans this morning.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So he's going to scrap digital IDs altogether. Keir Starmer had come up with a mandatory digital id, which you could only get work from, especially if you'd come to the country in some form of migration. You could only get work with a digital id. Then they dropped the compulsory part and now Andy Burnham says he's Going to drop it altogether.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And this is what his ally, Lucy Powell, the deputy leader of the party, possibly the Deputy Prime Minister tomorrow, who knows, this is how she explained why they're making the change.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And then you'll hear Dave Blunkett, who was on Radio 4, who disagrees with the decision.

[Lucy Powell]

It's one small example of reprioritising. This is an opportunity to reset, to refresh, to look at those things that perhaps are not just taking resource, but are taking attention away for government and priorities. And I think the Digital ID scheme is one such example. Something that, yeah, might not have cost a huge amount of money, but will have cost some money over time, certainly, to build it, to develop it, to make it happen, to maintain it and all of that, those kind of things.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So how much money are you going to save?

[Lucy Powell]

It takes attention. It takes attention away as well. So it's about being laser focused on the cost of living, laser focused on rewiring the economy, rewiring the political system in this country and clearing the decks, if you like, from of all of the other things that might distract and take away from that in terms of the focus of the government. And I think that's absolutely right. This is a moment to have a reset, have a refresh look at those things. And I think we'll see more of that in the coming days and weeks as well.

[David Blunkett]

I'm quite sanguine because I believe within 10 years I might not be here to see it, but within 10 years there will be a coherent, well protected identity system, because it's happening all around us. It's happening with people who get driving licenses, it's happening with our passport. It will be necessary for age verification for a whole variety of reasons, from what we're doing to protect people online all the way through to people not being able to buy tobacco. So it's going to happen. I just hope it happens in a coherent fashion.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But one of Andy Burnham's first decisions is wrong.

[David Blunkett]

Well, it's his decision. You see, what I said to people on Friday is, he's the Prime Minister now or he will be tomorrow. And I'm just a guy in the House of Lords giving advice when I'm asked.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But you're sort of Yoda to him, so I like it.

[David Blunkett]

I've been amused under Yoda.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Just a normal man.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

David Blunkett, former Home Secretary, Cabinet Minister of many years, Andy Barnum's mentor. I'm just a normal. I'm just a normal bloke. What I say doesn't really matter, not really.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But we're into the meat and potatoes of being a Prime Minister because doing a thing and guess what, it's not always popular. Welcome.

[Stuart Wood]

Welcome to the job. Right, the first pre. Pre power briefing and you. You start to create tensions. I mean, that's the. That's the way it goes. It's an interesting issue because for years Tony Blair was very keen on an ID card, not pre digital age, but sort of pre digital age. And then the logic for ID and ID cards sort of came into its own, I think, with the digital era, because of protection, as David Blunkett said, protection of individuals, but also the idea of stop stopping illegal work. So there's all sorts of social policy functions that ID cards could serve. The problem is that you've got into this world of cost, you got into this world of intrusion into people's lives and you also got this problem of contracts with private sector providers that cause a lot of angst inside the Labour Party and inside the country. I suspect what's going to happen is they'll get headlines out of scrapping the high level commitment and probably some savings that have been allocated in the Whitehall trajectory. But actually, as David Blunkett says, over time we'll still accrue something like a digital ID card out of functional necessity.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

The other thing that has been, I suppose, winks have been tipped towards is that Barnum is likely to make the move to bring Thames water, which is in a lot of trouble, into a form of special administration. And that might have been something that the Starmer government was going to have to do anyway, or might have decided to do. So if you put those two things together. Stuart, what do they tell us about the kind of government that this might be?

[Stuart Wood]

Well, I think the second one is the sort of meat and potatoes stuff when it comes to Andy's commitment to ending 40 years of neoliberalism, as he calls it, because he wants something totemic to show that he's reversing what he thinks has been a terrible settlement for the country that started with the Thatcher privatisations and all the regulatory stuff that goes around it. What's interesting, in the late 80s, that settlement about privatizing our utilities was kind of the Thatcher heartbeat issue, right? And would have had a lot of support. Now you go well into the right of politics before you get people who support the current system on public utilities, massive public support for doing something.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, it's very hard when we spray sewage into the rivers, it's very hard to be a member of the public and back whoever's doing it, private or public, do. Is there a read across for you, seeing Andy Burnham arrive ditching a Keir Starmer thing? Because Boris Johnson basically campaigned not to be Theresa May in every way.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yeah. And that, I think, was actually easier at that time because there was one massive central issue that was dominating headlines, relations with Brussels and further afield, and of course, the general public wondering what on earth, when on earth this thing would get done. Brexit, how long that would take and what it would look like. So being able to focus on that single thing and, and outline very clearly how you would do that differently to the two years that had gone before was, I think, a much more straightforward job than what Andy Burnham has to do now. And I think what I found really interesting about Lucy Powell's comments, which I thought were pleasantly surprising, was this realization about what is your priority here? That I'm sure there's lots of things that Andy Burn and his team would like to do, but the reality is they have got to find a way to tell a story. And that I think you've seen a little bit today is, well, that's not going to be the story. Maybe it will be in the future, but we have other things that are a priority. And I thought actually if they walk into the building tomorrow and take that approach, they might be onto something.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Here, though, there's a clash, though. One of the other things I was asking Lucy Powell about, and I think it is quite confusing, maybe for humble members of the public like ourselves, wondering. It makes me scratch my head because Andy Burnham says, don't worry, I'm going to stick to the manifesto that you voted for two years ago, dear British public. Andy Burnham then says, I'm going to try and reverse everything that's happened in the last four decades. And this is going to be a dramatic change of direction.

[Pura Advertiser]

Huh?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

How are those two things both going to be true?

[Stuart Wood]

That is the tension that every Gordon Brown had that in 2007, you know, how could he? Was he a continuer of Blair or was he a change from Blair? And the answer is, you're both. And I think Andy Burnham's got a little bit more permission to be a change Prime Minister, because, sad to say, Keir Starmer has not been popular. It has not been perceived to have worked. He's got a lot more latitude to do that. There'll be voices from the side saying, what about the manifesto commitment? I think as long as he sticks to the tax ones in particular, he has quite a lot of permission to do lots of things in between. I think this week you're going to see things which are totemic of a departure from the last two years. You'll see three or four things I suspect. And totemic of his new emphasis on politics outside London and shifting the centre of gravity. It's a racing certainty, in my view. You can throw this back at me when it doesn't happen.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We do that.

[David Blunkett]

We get.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We do that to ourselves.

[Stuart Wood]

Let me make myself a fool alongside the two of you. Love you both, as I do that. The first Cabinet meeting will not be taking place in London, for example.

[Lucy Powell]

Right.

[Stuart Wood]

That's the sort of thing that I suspect you'll see in the next few days. That's just a guess, but someone who used to work on these sorts of things, that would be the kind of thing you do to show this is a different kind of follow.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Tuesday morning, Avanti, West Coast, Houston 6:15 on the way to.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Henry and Laura were yesterday telling me to brace for a slew of announcements. Have you been in a sort of vacuum? Are you about to say the same thing? Get ready for a flurry of announcements.

[Stuart Wood]

I think you'll get three or four. I think you'll get three or four. Well, you've already had intimations of the. On water, on Thames water. You've had intimations on stuff on North Sea oil. I think you'll get something on that I very much suspect. I mean, if you look at opinion polling, Luke Trill, my former student, brilliantly taught by me.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I see your former student, Luke Trill, friend.

[Stuart Wood]

He was nothing until he got into my head. Now he's fantastic. Runs more common polling company. He says, look, the public's decided what the big issue is. Doesn't matter what you politicians think, it's cost of living. Cost of living is up there way above everything else. They have to do something on cost of living. It's very difficult thing to do because it takes a long time to shift the cost of living. But they've got to use the Westminster wonky term. They've got to have politics of trying. Right? You've got to show that you're trying to do something like cost of living. So those are three things you'll see, I suspect. And then something on devolution politics outside of London.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And what might that cost of living measurements look like?

[Lucia Hodgson]

So, well, I think the energy bills cut to vat.

[Paddy O'Connell]

They might take the standing charge out of gas bills, for instance. I've read in the papers today also this Keir Starmer administration, which is in power for another day, rises on train fares. Andy Burnham's obsessed with buses. He could give free bus travel or cap bus travel and it would look like a through line for Manchester.

[Lucia Hodgson]

And apparently that. That's one of the things they're thinking about is sort of the two pound cap or whatever.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But of course was Louise Hague policy. She was the Transport Secretary and she fought to have the cap on buses continued. There was a big hoo ha about it.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I can't say enough as a posh radio 4 voice how important talking bus is to talk bus and don't talk wonk. I just think if in early, early days bust not wonk. Yeah. If he talks bus, that's totally different.

[Lucia Hodgson]

The thing is, obviously they're about to have a very long summer recess, so the more they can do and. And you'd hope they've been using the last couple of weeks to plot out what they do with this otherwise empty spots where Parliament's not sitting. So they will have to try and demonstrate through these announcements and possibly a tour of some description.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think he's gonna.

[Lucia Hodgson]

That they're diving straight in. Otherwise I think unfortunately, like Starmer, you end up with another early period of dissatisfaction. Nothing's changing fast enough and it will be hard to demonstrate change fast enough without Parliament sitting, I think. So it'd be interesting to see what happens.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

One of his allies, Stuart, said to me that they reckoned he has maybe six, maybe eight months to show an impact. How would you characterize the. Because like the public is very unhappy with politicians at the moment. Millions of people have felt skinned for a very, very long time. The public is not tolerant of politicians right now. How long? And I'm not trying to be a ridiculous journalist actually like a dead ringers. This week was there was a sketch about everybody slagging off Andy Barnum for being a disappointment before he even walks into Danny Street.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But it's a genuine question. The polling suggests that people are willing to give Andy Barnum a hearing. Yeah, but that thing about pace, how pressing do you feel it is for him to show not just that he's in charge, but he's doing things that will make a difference to people.

[Stuart Wood]

I agree. Well, he's lucky in some respects. The timing of the transition is actually very good for him because he's got this week when Parliament's not sitting much to Kemi Badenoch's fury to set out some things, tram lines, as it were then he's got, as you say, he's got Six weeks of, he'll still be up and about, but politics does take a little bit of a backseat until the beginning of September. Then he's got party conference season in Liverpool where I think he'll get a hero's welcome and he gets to set out more agenda there. So for three months he can set out agenda. But you're right that, I mean, you can't turn around the cost of living crisis in six months. Six. Six months. But you can do things which are plausibly connected to it.

[David Blunkett]

Right.

[Stuart Wood]

Both long term changes, maybe things like the way our energy prices are way too high, looking at that. But also some short term things, maybe on buses, maybe on energy. We've got an energy price cap coming in in September. That's a moment. So, yeah, there's all sorts of levers you could pull. And so by Christmas you can say, you see, I've made a start on these things.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What is it like becoming Prime Minister when you witness Gordon Brown become Prime Minister? When you witness Boris Johnson become a. Can you tell us how you think it'll change Andy Burnham?

[Lucia Hodgson]

I think he has to capitalize on the genuine excitement of the moment amongst the team as well. And I think that pulling on people's, you know, the work they've done to help him get here, I mean, it's a shorter period of time. For Burnham it's come around so quickly. Whereas obviously for Boris it was probably something he wasn't just thinking about for a long time. But they had the longer.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

In the age of four.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yes. World King, I think was. Was the. The phrase.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So you mean take the mode. He's got the mode. Go with it?

[Lucia Hodgson]

I think so. And. But also, you know, I'm interested to see what, you know, we haven't had a Prime Minister with such a, you know, authentic personality in a while. I think he can lean on that a little bit. We saw when he walked into the Commons and had that moment across the dispatch box. There's a few. A lightness of touch to him that I think we've lacked. I think he can lean into that

[Laura Kuenssberg]

a little bit and that just to remind people, somebody said he's not the Messiah and he, quick as a flash said, naughty boy.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And what's your answer to how it changes people? What effect will it have on him?

[Stuart Wood]

I mean, with Gordon Brown it was because he was at the treasury and even if he didn't like Gordon Brown, he was successful politically at the treasury for 10 years. It was difficult for him to get out of treasury mode. And become a Prime Minister. That's Andy Burnham won't have that problem, I think.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Although how he's a mayoral mode.

[Stuart Wood]

That's true, he's a bit of that, but he's had different jobs, jobs in. In central government as well. It's very moving moment, I think, especially if you've been loyal. We're talking earlier on about people who've been loyal to Andy for years and years, and that's a very move. The first thing you do is famously, you sign letters, handwritten letters, to the people who are in charge of our nuclear subs in the event that communication is cut off and there's a conflict. And this is what you open the letter to. To know what to do with your missiles in the event. And it's an extra. It's a real concentration of the mind because it is a conscience moment, but it's also a national security moment. And it makes you realize the magnitude of your job straight away. You get brought into number 10, the door shut opens and people in military uniforms are there. The flunkies like me get shut out and there's a half hour of just those people. And I think that concentrates the mind and then you're straight into the agenda. And the key thing about being a number 10 is you could just let events and appointments overwhelm you every day, unless you have the strategic nous to take a grip and try and direct the machine.

[Lucia Hodgson]

He's also got sort of the phone calls with foreign leaders, which I think for him will be really important, actually. I mean, they are more almost a ceremonial thing. But actually, for someone who is wanting to demonstrate that he can be effective, that he can actually take that mantle from Keir Starmer, who has done better on the world stage, that's one of sort of the things he's done and performed well on. He will want to replicate that a little bit, I think. But also some of what you were saying about the cost of living will be determined by events that we don't know about. And I think setting that. That tone with world leaders early on and being clear about how he intends to deliver on the cost of living agenda and what some of the international community, how that will play into being able to lower prices for people, I think is really important because for as

[Laura Kuenssberg]

long as there's boats stuck in the Strait of Hormuz, yeah, there's a massive.

[Lucia Hodgson]

There's not as much he will be able to do.

[Stuart Wood]

Well, I think this is a really important point. I think Andy will be a better. I hope And I expect him to be a better experience explainer in chief of what's going on. We haven't really had public explanation. For example, the fact that we are borrowing in order to pay back old borrowing because of COVID a decision we all supported across parties. Why aren't we explaining that in public? Much, much more. I think Andy will be a better sort of narrative giver. It was a weakness of Keir Starmer's, let's be honest. I think he'll be much better at that. But you've got to explain and then respond rather than just explain.

[Lucia Hodgson]

And actually, I always wondered why Keir didn't make more use of. Of. You will know, Laura, the sort of press function that's been developed in number 10 so you can host. One of the things that was successful during COVID was the use of that room to tell the public what was going on. I always thought, why don't you keep doing that? But on cost of living or NHS waiting times, I think that not telling the public where you've come from and where you're going, hopefully that's a good. You know, you're working to make that a positive story to tell. But there's so much opportunity to have that dialogue with the public that I think, unfortunately, Kier just did not do at all. And I feel like Burnham would be better at it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, maybe explainer in chief might be something that we see and I think we will see him more than we saw Keir Starmer. I think we will see him also in lots of different settings. I think that's quite clear. And he's very easy in different settings, which is very.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Boris. Like, put him down a high street or in a hospital, you knew you'd get great clips. And I think Burnham will have a little bit of that about him as well.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

One of his close allies said to me, that's one of the things he knows he's good at. And whether it's communicating to a class of kids or whether it's communicating to a big senior politician, he's equally at ease in both of those situations. But, Stuart, there are, though there are doubts in parts of the Labour Party about whether or not he is going to have the chops and the gravitas to deal with some of what comes with being Prime Minister. That is there, of course, at the moment, people are fighting their way towards microphones to say how he's going to be. There are people who doubt that he really has got the chops to do this.

[Stuart Wood]

I'm sure there are and in a way, I think, as with Boris, actually, obviously I wasn't a fan of Boris politically, but I think that you don't really know the full character of someone until they get the job. Even with Gordon Brown, who I'd worked with for seven years, it's a different kind of challenge. The range, the incessantness, and it's way worse than it was when I worked with Gordon Brown in number 10. Of course, because of the change in the way the media works and social media in particular. So we just don't know the answer to that. I think you just gotta have. You gotta have company. You've got to play to your strengths. You've got people around who compensate for the things you know, as the boss, you don't have. I mean, a Prime Minister who knows what they don't know, and it has the courage to have people around them who can plug gaps for them, both on style, substance and other things is really crucial. And I actually think Andy's good at that. He's. He knows his limits on certain things and he knows the team he needs to have around him to have a full range of skills.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What role for your friend Ed Miliband?

[Stuart Wood]

I don't know. I mean, I'm with you. I'm not waiting to hear the appointment.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, you're not with me because you're a friend of his.

[Stuart Wood]

You could ring him now you're desperate to have a cup of tea with him. I mean. I mean, I think what Andy with James Pannell, his Chief of Staff, who was appointed a couple of weeks ago. What they've done is they've realized that they've got two weeks, which is a difficult two weeks because everyone's speculating about everything they'll make. They've kept things really close to their chest, really close to it. All the senior people, none of the senior people know, as far as I can work out what jobs it's not. The jobs have been distributed and they're keeping quiet. They are really keeping it to themselves. They've got huge power. They've decided they want to set the agenda out first. This is what Andy Burnham's about. And people are appointed to an agenda filled Andy Burnham administration. I think that's quite smart, tough as it is for all the senior Cabinet people and by the way, all the advisors who don't know whether tomorrow they've got a job or not or where they're going to be. But put that to one side. I think that's quite a smart thing politically to do. Even Though it's really squeaky bum territory for the senior ranks of the Labour Party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It is a demonstration of power and at the moment, and tomorrow he has it at his most powerful.

[Stuart Wood]

That's exactly right.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it may fade quickly. We just don't know whether or not it will fade quickly. And of course, if the team all explodes and someone says, oh, I'm not doing that job, thanks very much. It could all, you know, ministerial appointments often go wrong.

[Stuart Wood]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But I just wonder. Newscasters are gloriously interested in detail, just as we are. So when you say they, Stuart, who are the characters? Who are the three or four people? There's Andy Burnham, James Purnell. Who else is in that tight, tight circle around.

[Stuart Wood]

Around Andy Burnham? Well, I mean, Lou Haig, as you mentioned earlier on, is extremely important to Andy. There's Annalise Midgley, there's Lucy Powell, there's lots of other people from Manchester who he's very close to who wouldn't want me to name them because they're behind the scenes people.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's why I'm asking you to name them.

[Stuart Wood]

Okay, well, you know who they are, because I'm sure you chat to them. But, yeah, he's got. He's got a circle of people and he's been building it up. I mean, it's not like he arrived with this sort of Reservoir Dogs team, who. He's arrived and he's brought a few people in. Remember, Andy Burnham doesn't know, historically, a lot of the members of the Labour Party in Parliament that. Well, he left parliament 10 years ago. Most of the MPs are new since then, so he spent a lot of time getting to know them in different caucus meetings and groups. But he's accumulating a team. And James Pinell was, in a way, the sort of key appointment. His old friend James Purnell. Slightly surprising in the sense, but really smart because they're very good friends and represent different bits of a. The old Labour Party.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And Lucio, you've just given us a clue. But you did comms for Boris Johnson. And I think if I'm hearing you both correctly, you're saying Andy Burnham's got more about. More charisma about him. And Boris Johnson had charisma. You've said, why not do a daily news conference? Is that something maybe weekly.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Daily feels a bit intense, but you could do something like that. Yeah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What else would you do for the comms of this administration? Is it important to say to me as a voter very soon, I know you hate the churn In Downing Street. I know we said we wouldn't do it. Should they go through that door and say, those awful Tories, they changed, I'm done with that.

[Lucia Hodgson]

They need to not talk about the Tories. In my opinion, they've got to start talking more about the future and what they're doing now and thinking about how this went for Starmer in his first six months. People were saying, you know, okay, you've had your fill of blaming what's gone before you. I think that gets tiresome very quickly. If I were him, I would really be thinking about what he's doing now and talk more about that because I think that has been an issue for them to be able to outline that to people more in a way that they understand. And also I would get him out with members of the public. I mean, it did work very well for Boris. You knew that you'd get. There's risk with that and you'd get the sort of father in the outside the hospital complaining about wait times. But for every one of those, you do get something actually quite genuine and authentic and that's what can then tell the story for you. Rather than being locked up in Downing street, which it sounds like he doesn't particularly want to be anyway, so why not lean into what he actually wants to spend time doing?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I mean, that's certainly what he did in Makerfield world. Highly visible, highly present. And that's what everybody who is sort of in his camp, what that's what they will all tell you is he loves meeting people, he loves talking to people. It can be annoying because he's sometimes late because he's still having a conversation with someone that he bumped into on the way. But also some of the people close to him, Stuart, have said to me they're worried or concerned he might lose that connection because that's sort of where he gets some of his thinking sometimes.

[Stuart Wood]

His energy.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, and his kind of energy. And one of his. His old team said to me, he used to come into the office every week and tell us about something. Someone had come up to him in Morrison's and said. And it gave him a new angle on it. And they didn't mean that sounds like it could be a terrible place. Oh, yeah, someone said, wouldn't be in the supermarket. You'll never guess what my taxi driver was saying to me. But it was a. They, they said it was a genuine thing for him because it would give him an idea or an angle on something that he might not have thought about before. And they were kind of worried about that he might lose that.

[Stuart Wood]

Absolutely.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Connection.

[Stuart Wood]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Because once you're Prime Minister, your Prime Minister, you're taken away by the. The military to brief you or you're taken to this or take.

[Stuart Wood]

And you're told by security, you can't do. You can't do this many visits. It's a public security issue. So it's very hard to do that. You're consumed by a white hole machine that wants you to make decisions, to resolve disputes within departments. As you say with Defense, all sorts of things. You've got to travel abroad, which isn't the kind of travel that I suspect Andy would gets the energy from as much painful. It's incredibly tough to fight for the time to be yourself. If that's your brand and if that's where you get your ideas and your energy from, it's gonna be really tough for him to do that. I hope he's got people around him who just insist on it and are prepared to stand up to the machine.

[Lucia Hodgson]

We decided very early on that alongside Brexit, if Boris wasn't pictured with nurses or the police on some sort of visit talking about relevant things, then we'd failed. And you have to be that laser focused on it. Which is why I found Lucy Powell's remarks today interesting because I think you could do any number of things, you could go all over the place. But what's the common theme amongst that that shows visually as well that you are delivering on the things that people are, that people care about.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Tony Blair wanted, I think, to move the number 10 operation to the conference center opposite Westminster Abbey and not use number 10 with its Warren of hot little rooms. And. And we know, we know it's now true that Morgan McSweeney, Sue Gray did have desk that's been proven.

[Stuart Wood]

The person closest, she put him at

[Laura Kuenssberg]

the other end of the building.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And we know that's true now. At first we thought it was mad. So do you think number 10, spending time out of number 10 could be a really sensible thing to say to the public? The building doesn't work so we're not going to use it very much. And you've already said use the new bit. How did you. How dysfunctional did you find the building, the Georgian building?

[Lucia Hodgson]

I think it's well known now that it isn't. If you were designing what this place looked like, it would not be the place that it is. I have reservations about the number 10 in the north for a few reasons. Largely that set a civil service on a task like that and that's what they will do. What, what else are they going to do? And I just think in terms of that demonstration of delivery to people, is this their priority? And it will take a long time. I also think that, you know, you can't change the fact that power is derived from the Prime Minister. How you then split that between two locations I think could be very problematic. So yes, number 10 is imperfect. I'm not sure that number 10 in the north is an. Adding another layer of sort of, of that kind of setup is, is helpful but, but you can get out and be amongst people and go and see things or talk about things you care about without any of it being about number 10. You can just let that building sort of sort itself out whilst you actually focus on the, the priorities that matter.

[Stuart Wood]

It is a weird building, isn't it?

[Lucia Hodgson]

It is, yeah.

[Stuart Wood]

There's this cafe in the basement. I don't know if you ever used

[Lucia Hodgson]

it, but it's not great, is it? They definitely deserve coffee.

[Stuart Wood]

It's a first world problem if you're a, if you're a special advisor to the Prime Minister, I admit, but very difficult to get food.

[Lucia Hodgson]

It really is.

[Stuart Wood]

You see when, when you're on TV, people standing outside a shot outside number 10, you see all these people going in and out of the front door. I bet you 90% of them are just going for a sandwich and they have to walk quarter of a mile to get one. So that's my big complaint about the British state is there's not enough food options in number 10. But it's a weird building. You walk around, you try and get a signal with your phone and the

[Lucia Hodgson]

signal is a big problem, actually signals a big problem. The food was definitely lacking. You could get a decent slice of toast in the morning and then you would just go out of the building to try and find something. But for me, better coffee would be

[Stuart Wood]

some luxurious toilets in there. But I won't, I won't go into more detail. Probably the wrong hour for it. There's no hour for this, is there?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Anyway.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But one of the things about transition. So I was told that in Theresa May's government, when she moved in as Prime Minister there, the bit opposite her office was gents lose.

[Stuart Wood]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And the, the powers that be thought that was not very nice. So they decided to make it into a nice waiting area for when she was having people to come and visit her and they finished it it a couple of days before she got the boot.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Well, this is also possibly the problem with the number 10 north how, how quickly will all of this happen? But I do think that the setup of the building is problematic. You know, you, a Prime Minister might expect to be able to step outside of the office and have 20, 30 people, you know, determined by his priorities and who's actually there. You know, the diary person, the Chief of Staff, there is no room for them. And you know, the, the next available office is sort of of down one of the rabbit warrens and, and so on and it is imperfect. And I think that, I mean, I know the signal sounds like a silly point, but it's a really important point and that's one of my over overwhelming memories of, of coming in is not being able to respond to the people are supposed to be helping out in the press.

[Stuart Wood]

I think this, you put your finger on something which is really important, kind of secret of the way the British state works, which is if the Prime Minister has a majority, usually the last two years have been a bit of an exception, they can get what they want done, done pretty easily. That's the usual rule of British politics. But the thing that stops it becoming what someone once called an elective dictatorship, where the Prime Minister can just do anything they like for five years, is that there is no there there in number 10. Number 10 is not. If you go to the White House, which I've had the privilege to do a few times, luckily with Gordon Brown, there's a massive. Thousands of people work for the President and in number 10 there aren't many people there at all. And that means that they have to rely on the departments to get their stuff done. And that's the sort of saving grace, the check and balance, if you like, on the power of the British Prime Minister. Prime Ministers always reach for a kind of department. Gordon Brown used the Cabinet Office for that. I don't know how Boris built up some internal people. I know, but they're always looking for a power because they're used to pulling levers and getting things done. And in number 10 you don't do that, you work through other departments. It's a very strange way of working for a lot of the people.

[Lucia Hodgson]

I worry the solution could be quite sticking plaster though, like fundamentally what I think we're all agreeing is that the building is just so imperfect.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's a sort of metaphor for it though, isn't it? Because nobody. One of the things that I've found actually that continues to shock me is I've talked to a lot of people who've worked in government over many, many, many years. None of them Think the government works well? None of them. I don't have met anybody who's either been a politician or a staffer who thinks that actually the UK government that spends, what is it, more than a trillion, a trillion of our fine British pounds actually thinks that it works well on behalf of citizens. And that's a kind of accepted truth in the Westminster public.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Well, it's one of those things that the solution is so massive and expensive that nobody's particularly willing to take. Take it on. And you can understand when we're talking about cost of living being such a dominant concern for people that that will look quite self interested. But actually longer term, if you actually made that change and tried to change the machinery of government, you could actually address these problems much better.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So you told us tantalizingly you were there when Gordon Brown squatted for five days in Downing Street. What will Keir Starmer's final day be like, his final night be like?

[Stuart Wood]

Wow. Well, I guess the movers have already come and taken lots of the stuff away. Right. So I think tomorrow is a day of goodbyes, really. And there's lots of. There'll be lots of tears, there'll be lots of permanent staff there who have worked closely with KIYV for two and a bit years. Two years. And then there's this extraordinary moment. I always think there should be a sort of sitcom made about this. There's this sort of Transition half hour, 45 minutes when. And you wave goodbye to the old team. I was literally the last advisor to leave number 10 in 2010 when Gordon left. Finally, because I'd forgotten something, I had to go back in and get it. I had the distinction of being the last person to leave. And as I went back in to pick up my bag or whatever I'd left, all my friends were busily moving stuff around because they'd already had instructions from Team Cameron about what room should be used for what they were carrying desks out. It was extraordinary. There's this sort of 35, 40 minute period. I don't know how long it'll be tomorrow. Probably a bit longer.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Stuart Wood]

Maybe when you just reshuffle the phone furniture and you say, oh, we'll have that room ready and we'll get rid of that and you'll chuckle the old documents out. It's quite extraordinary moment.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And the Cabinet appointments tomorrow. That's such a bit of political theater.

[Stuart Wood]

It is.

[Paddy O'Connell]

You've obviously been inside and you've been outside. You've seen 10 administrations and you.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. And you see people walking up the street.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And then you think that's. That's the first time you'll know.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes. And the first person in will be the chat. Well, unless something really weird happens, the first person in will be the Chancellor, because that's always the first appointment. It's the most important appointment.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

And.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And then after that, maybe for. Well, there. Well, you're in the Lords, you could be a minister. There we are. Here's the scoop. Spirit Wood's going to be the Chancellor.

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

Exactly.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's a huge moment. I remember, actually, when Keir Starmer did it, they were so well organized for that first day. They had been planning it to the nth degree and they'd done all the waving and cheering and people wearing flags in the street. Waving flags, not wearing flags. It's a different kind of thing. But I remember seeing all the Cabinet ministers, they all came and lined up at the end, waiting for their moment to walk up in front of the. Of the cameras. And they were sort of one by one, they were so, like the kind of prefects arriving for the first day of school. They were all so delighted and so happy and so kind of ready for it. And I remember seeing them up, waiting at the end of the street to sort of get their cue and then walk up and it was kind of impeccably choreographed. But who knows what this is going to be like? I mean, it's, it's, it's fascinating because they've had to do it at speed and remember, you said the timing was good for them, but he wanted to wait till September. He wanted more time. He did and hasn't had it.

[Stuart Wood]

And he's got to do something normally. So when Keir Starmer won, he had a shadow team and he basically made the phone calls at all, had the conversations of appointing people. Andy Burnham's got to stand people down as well as appoint people. He's got to say to some people, I think he's probably gonna do this first. From what? From what?

[Paddy O'Connell]

What's today?

[Stuart Wood]

I have no idea. But he's got to tell people, I'm sorry, but you're not having a place. Right. And that's a really. So the, the toughest conversations will probably come first. He's not going to make appointments until he's created the spaces he needs. So he's got a slightly more tricky, or at least personally thing to do to start. Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Do you think you'll find that difficult?

[Stuart Wood]

I'm sure it'll be difficult. I hope it's difficult because it's a It's a weighty thing. I mean, I'd like him to think it's difficult, but it's what you have to do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right, go on your predictions, then.

[Stuart Wood]

I think Liverpool will win the Premier League.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I give you. Can I start it off with a newscaster? Trevor Officers of State sweepstake Chancellor Ed Miliband. Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood. Foreign Secretary Yvette Cooper. So keepers are keepers. Wild card consolation prize for Rachel Reeves, Chief Whip. Love the podcast.

[David Blunkett]

Thanks.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What do you think of Trevor's predictions?

[Lucia Hodgson]

Not bad. I definitely think those are the people that are in the mix. But I think Shabana could be Chancellor. I think Ed could be given foreign. You will know much better than me, though.

[Stuart Wood]

I honestly don't know. I mean, I'm reading the same reports. I really am.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I've told Laura I'm fascinated by the Rachel Reeves attitude. Keir Starmer has behaved with good grace. He said it. And he's given permission to people to do this transmission without. Without him transition, without him sulking. But not in publicly.

[Stuart Wood]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So. So Rachel Reeves wasn't there in Downing street for Keir, but she was there in the House of Commons for Annie with her selfie. Then she said, you know, it's up to him. What? She's going to have a role, isn't she?

[Stuart Wood]

I hope so. I hope she's got a big role.

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

Yeah.

[Stuart Wood]

She's a very talented person. Yeah. And it's difficult because the last two years has not gone well, you know, for the government as a whole. And she's the number two person in that government. So it takes real courage and identity to sort of get another role and bounce back from that and redefine yourself in the next role. One of the things I like about Ed Miliband is that he's, apart from being my friend, he's someone who had the biggest slap in the face you can get. He lost an election and he decided to stay in Westminster politics and start again and come back through a cabinet role. I think that breeds in. Duncan Smith did the same sort of thing. I think that breeds courage and strength and the ability to make tough decisions. And I think Rachel will benefit from that. But I really hope she gets a senior job.

[Lucia Hodgson]

I think Theresa made this very well. She didn't go into a role, but she did take a very important role on the back bench and continued to turn up and take part in the sorts of debates that she was really passionate about. And I do think that.

[Stuart Wood]

And she does it in the Lords now as well.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yes. Exactly. And I do think that if, I mean, people like May who have such a commitment to sort of public service, I think there's definitely more in, in the Commons and Lords that you can do and, and continue to pursue the things that you care about.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Do you think Kirstarmer will do some of that?

[Stuart Wood]

Yes. I mean, again, I'm not privileged to what he's going to do. It feels to me like he's on the way out, that when he said, I mean, he said, this is the end of my political career.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Quite a loud and defensive time.

[Stuart Wood]

But, you know, Rishi, Rishi Tunak, as I remember, said, I'll continue to serve. He didn't say that. So it felt a little bit. Maybe that was his way of putting himself out of speculation for a job, I don't know. But it feels like he's thinking about the next thing and who can blame him? I mean, that may be exactly the right thing for him and his family.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, we're on our way. We've had such privileged access talking to you two. I think you two need your own podcast. What worries me.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Let us know when you're planning retirement.

[Stuart Wood]

We'll have you on for a short five minute snippet.

[Paddy O'Connell]

In such a competitive space, is there any big thing you haven't said that you want to tell newscasters before we bring this to an end?

[Stuart Wood]

Think of the family. Think of Andy's wife and kids and their world is about to be absolutely transformed. A mixture of enforced privacy and unrelenting scrutiny from a distance. Andy, I know, is thinking a lot about his family arrangements, particularly with the North. The north. And that whatever your politics, always have respect and thought for the family, of the people who take on the biggest job there is because it is extraordinarily pressured.

[Lucia Hodgson]

I think it's, for me, picking up on something that you, you said just a while ago, which is on the six to eight months, which I was like, God, that's actually quite long. I think it will be shorter where people, the public will be making their assessment of how well he's done. So I think it's to pick up on some of what we've already talked about, about that prioritisation piece. If you want to talk about 10 things, people aren't going to remember what they are and they're going to be wondering why things still feel expensive. And for me, it just is that sense of, of focus on the thing that's going to make the biggest difference electorally as well and remain laser focused on it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Three words, slogan so you very successfully you had get it done.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.

[Stuart Wood]

Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Podcast Promo Host]

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire?

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

From posting videos on Good Bad Billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber MrBeast made his fortune.

[Podcast Promo Host]

He's buried himself in a coffin for

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and

[Podcast Promo Host]

even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism

[Podcast Promo Host]

or is he just the king of the attention economy?

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

Find out on Good Bad billionaire listen

[Podcast Promo Host]

on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with Popping Boba to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.

[Stuart Wood]

Refreshers contain caffeine.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, well.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Get Brexit done.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Get Brexit done. Take back control. Rishi Sunak then had stopped the boats. Didn't go very well. But if you had to do three words because he's tried a few, it's like place, not politics, which I'm not sure that means things people hope. Well, hope.

[Lucia Hodgson]

Hope in every heart.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Hope in every heart doesn't really say

[Lucia Hodgson]

what it's going to do, though.

[Stuart Wood]

I would give back. Give back control he used the other day. And I think that maybe because obviously it feeds off the Brexit thing, but it's a. It's a generous message and it's a people in charge again message rather than these nasty Westminster elites.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Terrible, nasty elites.

[Stuart Wood]

With one exception.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What about you? Yeah, we say no. Stuart Wood Lord would. Thank you very much, Lucia Hodgson. Thank you very much indeed.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's been very, very nice privilege to have you guys with us, taking us behind the shiny black front door. We've got to say something else though, Paddy, before we say goodbye because we are saying goodbye to newscast for the next six weeks. Yes, old newscasts are not. Newscasts will be coming into your feed Newscast Taking a look at some big moments of the news in recent decades. So there'll be plenty for you to listen to and enjoy. And you're gonna have two newscasts tomorrow with all the events in Downing Street. I'll be there for some of it. Don't know if I'll be on newscast, but maybe I will. And we will be back the first weekend of September together. How should we. How should we. How should we survive? How shall I survive?

[Paddy O'Connell]

I'll send you. Without you. You have to send me whatsapps Deleting messages Thank you for listening. Thanks for being here. Goodbye.

[Lucy Powell]

Goodbye. Newscast Newscast from the BBC.

[BBC Newscast Outro Host]

Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

[Podcast Promo Host]

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire?

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

From posting videos on Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast, made his fortune.

[Podcast Promo Host]

He's buried himself in a coffin for

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and

[Podcast Promo Host]

even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism,

[Podcast Promo Host]

or is he just the king of the attention economy?

[MrBeast Podcast Narrator]

Find out on Good Bad billionaire.

[Podcast Promo Host]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast costs.