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A
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Summer smells like salt in the air and warm sand. Restore your sense of place with Pura's new summer fragrance collection. Discover transportive clean scents@pura.com
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A
hello, Mariana.
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C
Hello.
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A
Here we are in the same studio at the same time. For us, we are for a special project.
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C
Yeah. We are talking about one of my favorite topics. Football and the World cup may be one of your favorite topics.
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A
Well, it's about to be. Yeah. I mean, I always get into it when it is the World Cup.
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C
Yeah. And also I think that this World cup is particularly interesting, which is why we're talking about it, because it's obviously happening in the U.S. mexico, Canada, and there is lots to discuss in terms
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A
of geopolitics and there's a lot going on between a lot of countries at the moment and a lot of those countries are going to be meeting in the three host countries, the U.S. canada and Mexico. And we're gonna have a bit of a theme of threes because we've brought together three podcasts.
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C
There's mine, Newscast, there's ameracast, and I'm not alone.
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D
Not alone, Anthony here in Washington D.C. in America for the American World cup show.
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A
And joining us from the third legendary podcast is John Murray from Football Daily. Hello, John.
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E
Yes, hello, everyone. Yes, And I know I'm going to be going straight to Mexico. I know I'll be in the United States and depends what happens in terms of who goes through, who goes out, whether get to Canada or not. But I'll certainly be going to two of the three.
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A
And for those of you who cannot see John, he's got his proper football commentary lip mic, so I feel like he's in the commentary booth already.
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E
Well, in the football, in the Football Daily, in the Commentators View podcast, we always do it on lip mics, just I think, give it that extra little bit of football commentator feel. So old habits die hard.
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A
It's making me want to talk very, very closely into my microphone. But that probably will not sound as good and certainly my content will not be as good as yours, John. Anyway, welcome aboard because we're going to do three episodes looking at lots of elements of the World cup, not necessarily the actual football. There's plenty of that elsewhere. But all of the interesting aspects around the politics, the money, the relationships and some of the things that might happen. And we're doing this in a combo miniseries of Newscast americast and Football Daily Newscast.
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C
Newscast from the BBC. It's going to be the world's Largest sporting event ever hosted.
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D
But when the time is up, they'll have to go home.
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C
FIFA is making $11 billion off of this.
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F
If somebody buys a ticket for the final two minutes, I would personally bring him a hot dog and a Coke.
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D
It is such a unifying event. It is also about winning. I may put on shorts.
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F
I look extremely good in shorts.
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D
Enjoy the play.
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A
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.
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C
And it is Marianna sitting next to Adam in the newscast studio.
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D
And it's Anthony in the BBC bureau in Washington dc.
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E
And this is John sitting at my desk where I am putting my final preparations to what I'm planning to use once I get to the World cup for our commentaries.
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A
John, does that mean you have a big binder? That's a stationary item very close to my heart.
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E
I'm looking around my desk here, Adam, and I've got piles of paper. I've got the current edition of World Soccer, I've got Diego Maradona's autobiography, and I've got various other books and files.
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A
So the answer is yes, Mariana's just got her phone, which has fallen out of her pocket.
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C
That was.
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A
That little thud was. She's got everything on one device.
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C
No books or bookshelves, unfortunately.
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A
Right. We're recording three episodes. This is the first one. We're doing it on Thursday 4th June, and it is the afternoon. Just so you know what the world looks like. As we're recording this episode right now, and this first in our three part series, we're going to look at kind of the genesis of this World Cup. How did it end up being in Canada, the USA and Mexico, which is a quite an unusual situation. And also this intriguing relationship. I don't want to call it a bromance because that's a bit of a cliche. Now between the two presidents, Donald Trump and Gianni Infantino of FIFA, because that's an interesting story in itself. So, John, when did you realize you would be spending this summer in North America?
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E
Yeah, well, it was when it was announced that it would be the very first World cup that was to have three hosts in the United States, Canada and Mexico. And the reason for that is it is the biggest World cup that there's ever been. So it's been expanded by FIFA to include 48 teams. So it'll take place over 39 days. That's as opposed to the 32 days it would take under the previous format. And I think as well, more significantly, in terms of the Number of matches now, 48, Team World cup means 104 matches compared to 64 in the previous recent editions of the World Cup. So teams these days will have to get through eight matches to win it instead of seven. So that's it. It is very simply the biggest that there's ever been.
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A
And Marianna, because it's America and it's so polarized and Trump is so dominant as a political figure, this is like, I don't. The Oscars, the Met Gala, whatever. There's a Trump element to it, irrespective of what we're actually talking about as the substance of the thing.
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C
Yeah. And I think that's actually why so many people are quite engaged with this, even who aren't that fussed about football. I mean, I say this is like, I'm very obsessed with football, but quite a lot of people I've been talking to and getting messages from who've been spotting stuff on their social media feeds and saying, oh, like this is coming up about the World Cup. So much of that content is about the politics rather than the sport itself. And I think it'll be quite interesting to see when the World cup actually gets going, how much the politics eclipses the football or not. Maybe everyone will just love the football and the politics will end up being separate. But I think some of the tensions we're expecting mean that that might not be the case.
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A
And Anthony, obviously, I mean, it's exciting that it's coming to your home turf, but I just wonder, has this come to your turf as a political journalist as well?
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D
Absolutely. I've been keeping my eye on this ever since the United States was announced as one of the co hosts of the World Cup. And then when Donald Trump was reelected in 2024, it occurred to me very early on that he's going to be president not only during the Olympics in 2028 and America's 250th birthday celebrations this July, but also the World Cup. He loves being center stage. He loves being the person, particularly with sporting events. He's been had a connection to sports for most of his adult life, owning the sports, football, American football franchise, being involved in boxing. So you knew he was going to inject himself right into the middle of this. And with Donald Trump comes all of the divisiveness, all of the politics, all of the chaos that, that he has brought to politics ever since he first ran for president in 2015.
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A
Although, John, I just wonder with you as a veteran, and I mean that in a nice way, that actually this is maybe nothing new, because loads of World Cups take place against a backdrop of controversial things, usually in the host country.
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E
Yeah, I'll take that in the manner intended. Yeah. As I say, I have personally been to seven of the, of the World Cups. This is the 23rd and really actually since the very first one in 1930 in Uruguay, I mean, politics played a big part in, in that, in the fact that it was decided to be in, in Uruguay who had one of the strongest national teams at the time. But if you think back the next one, 1934 in Italy, Mussolini was all over that one. And the first one I can properly remember watching on the television when Scotland were famously there, Ali's tartan army in 1978. And I've actually got my World Cup 78 panini sticker book here with me as well, which I almost filled up. But I remember as an 11 year old watching, being absolutely wrapped by it on the television with the ticker tape coming down and just the feel of it and the sort of blurry television pictures, it felt like such a long way away. But of course, in later years, you know, I've learned that Argentina was being run by a military junta at the time. It was a dictatorship. And, you know, they really ran the show and, you know, it was almost as political as any World cup had been at the time in 1978.
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A
Other brands of stickers and collectibles are available now. When I think back to the World Cups that have happened while I've been a professional journalist, I think of Qatar in 2022, where quite a lot of migrant workers died when they were building the infrastructure, and then the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014, which was obviously before the World cup happened in Russia in 2018. And when you talk to people about their memories of those tournaments, they talk about, they talk about the football, they don't talk about the controversies in the build up to the tournament.
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C
Yeah. And I think that, you know, in the build up especially, there's a lot more kind of analysis and critique and reflection on the politics and what it'll mean and how it will unfold. And we saw that in the build up to both Russia and Qatar. But once the football gets going, I think the question, I think this is the big question for the United States. And I'm sure, Anthony, you've got lots to say about this. You know, thinking about where there could be flashpoints, if there's any gun violence, if there are any issues around, around ICE and immigration raids and that sort of thing. I think it's, it's whether there's any aggro that unfolds during the tournament itself, that could dictate whether we talk about politics. Because if you think of Russia, for example, or Qatar largely, although there was controversy before those tournaments, they ran pretty smoothly and there weren't any problems.
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A
And Anthony, we'll dig into some of those issues in this episode and in future episodes as well, because this is a three part miniseries we're doing, so we've got, we've got plenty of time. But Anthony, just give us this kind of the origin story of this World Cup. Like, why did, why did the three countries get together in the, in the first place?
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D
Well, I think part of it was because the scope of this World cup was much bigger with, as John mentioned, more teams that this was going to be one of the, or the biggest World cup in the tournament's history. They needed to be able to produce it over a much wider piece of real estate. We had had joint World Cups before. Obviously Japan and South Korea hosted a World cup, but this one with the United States, with Mexico, with North America, they all pitched the idea together. They thought this would be a unifying type of proposal. These three countries that were closely connected geographically, but also by their trade relationships that they would be able to put on the kind of show that would befit this much larger World cup undertaking. So it was quite a proud moment for I think all three countries in the beginning. I think they saw this as an opportunity to put together a unified front and put their best foot forward.
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A
And when you read the original bids document, which is this huge doorstopper of a book that they put together to win the bid a few years ago, the theme that just keeps coming out of that you don't need to be a football expert is just that all the stadiums or stadia, we should say stadium, are already built. There's loads of hotels, there's loads of airports. This is ready to go. Pre packed World cup venues, set of venues that Morocco, who were competing in that bidding process just couldn't match. Really, John?
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E
Yeah, that's right. It's a little bit like a political manifesto, isn't it? The bid document. You can always go back, can't you, and say, well, what about this, what about that? What's in the bid document doesn't always turn out to be exactly what happens on the ground. But you know, with the USA as the main day of the bid against Morocco, who tried and tried and tried and failed and failed and failed. And actually since then, they will be hosting the next World cup along with Portugal and Spain, so they will get their chance next time around. But yes, that was the, the infrastructure that existed in the United States and in Canada and Mexico, you know, was a, was a, a strong deciding factor. I feel, particularly when you look back to other recent World Cups when it's been a real rush, the stadiums finished. Although in saying that, I do know that in Mexico City they've updated the Azteca Stadium. And I know that's a little bit of a race against time to get that ready for the start of the World Cup.
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A
Good, good. There's a challenge. Annika subplot, because you do need that in the build up to all major sporting events, even if the hosts claim everything's ready to go. Anthony also in that bid book, the kind of the big slogan that they keep pushing is unity, certainty, opportunity. Well, certainly two of those three things have been in short supply in North America in the two Trump presidencies.
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D
Yeah, it's been a difficult time for US Mexico, Canada relations even in Donald Trump's first term with what he was doing on the US Mexico border and the crackdown and the call to build a wall. But particularly now in this second term, which started in January of last year because Donald Trump focused on tariffs and trade. And the two countries or two of the first countries he targeted with tariffs were Mexico and Canada, two of the United States biggest trading partners, that alone would have been disruptive and that alone would have cast a shadow over this tournament. But you throw in Donald Trump calling for Canada to be America's 51st state, referring to then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as Governor Trudeau, and the back and forth between these two countries where Canada took all of America's liquor products off their shelves, the United States reprised with their own additional tariffs. And it has made for some unfriendly relationships. And you actually see it with some of the Canadian attitudes towards other countries. Mark Carney, the current prime minister, giving speeches abroad that directed his country to move in a different direction than the United States and start exploring other relationships outside of what had been the close U.S. canada relations. Relations with Mexico are still tense because of border concerns, immigration concerns and crackdowns of undocumented migrants who have come into the United States through Mexico. So all of that puts the relations not on a unified kind of footing that I think they had hoped that this World cup would produce.
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E
I would say, Adam, by the way, that having been at the draw in Washington for the finals, which planned out the whole schedule, that we have typical politics. They were all on the stage Together Donald Trump, Mark Carney, Claudia Sheinbaum, Gianni Infantino. You know, you'd think that they were the greatest of mates. And that was just a few months ago. And so, you know, they have to get along for the sake of the World Cup.
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A
Also, Marianna, I'm just thinking if you were Gonna watch all 104 World cup matches and if anyone was gonna do that or was able to do that, it would be you. That I know. 78 of those matches are in the U.S. 13 each in Canada and Mexico. So actually it's going to feel like a very USA heavy World Cup.
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C
Yeah. And I would say as well that a lot of the kind of outward, a lot of the content we're seeing and the messaging, I mean, to be honest, if you were Mexico and Canada, you might be a bit annoyed really, because it's kind, you've kind of been slightly lost in the, I think particularly because of the political context and because Donald Trump is such a sort of advocate for the US hosting the World Cup. The noise that I'm seeing certainly in the social media world, but beyond is very much focused on the USA and not really on the other places. And you're suddenly like, oh, hang on a second, this matches in Mexico City or this is happening in Canada and, and if you were them, you'd be thinking, hang on a sec, we are actually a bit involved, but. But like you point out, less involved than the U.S. and that kind of explains why so much of the focus is on America.
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A
Although, John, I mean, Mexico, I mean, they've got their own place in World cup history. Host the history books.
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E
Yep. This is the first time that any country will hold matches in three men's World cup tournaments. And actually they've held a women's World cup as well. So that is also a record to host four senior World cup tournaments. And the Aztec Stadium where the opening match will be played is one of the, the iconic venues for the World Cup. If you were to put together a showreel of, I don't know, the top 20, 25 moments of the World cup, probably four or five of them would be inside the Aztec Stadium, which is where we saw the Diego Maradona Hand of God goal in 1986. Both Pele and Maradona have won the World cup in that stadium. You know, England have a great history there as well because they played there during the, of the 86 World cup before that match against Argentina. And you know, it is one of the iconic venues.
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D
Yeah, I'm here in the United States. And I remember the Hand of God goal in 1986. That was one of my first World cup memories. It made headlines here in the U.S. even before soccer really took off in the United States. It's something that people, rank and file people paid attention to.
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A
Although, Anthony, America's history of hosting the World cup, mainly in my teenage mind, was Diana Ross missing a penalty at the very lavish opening ceremony in 1994. I'm sure there was much more spectacular football than that in the following weeks, but the thing that lodged in my mind was that image.
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D
Yeah, that wasn't the best start to it, obviously, but it was the first chance for America to see a World cup up close. And I will say that a lot of Americans really got into it and enjoyed it. America usually doesn't pay attention to the rest of the world unless it's right in front of their noses. And this put soccer right in front of our noses. And it helped launch the mls, Major League Soccer League that is still going on and has expanded and has quite a following here in the United States now. And I remember There was a July 4th knockout round game between the United States and Brazil in that tournament. And on the 4th of July, the United States playing it was, you know, quite a celebration. And I actually went to a game here in Washington, D.C. because it hosted some opening round games and a knockout round game. I saw Spain be Switzerland in the knockout round. And so it pulled a lot of Americans in, despite the kind of rocky start that it got off to with those opening ceremonies.
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A
And I rewatched the clip of Diana Ross doing the penalty. And in defense of Diana Ross, she actually is not that wide of the goal. It's pretty close. And also she is singing live in a massive ceremony, and then she goes onto a stage to do the rest of the show. So she had other things on her mind. And also she didn't present herself as like, like, top female athlete. She was like top, top singer. Anyway, so that's my defense of Diana Ross.
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E
It was the tournament. It was the tournament that started and finished with a missed penalty because Roberto Baggio missed the penalty that decided it for Brazil. And it started with Diana Ross's missed penalty in the opening ceremony.
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C
Poetic, John.
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A
Pop and football, our two passions combined. Right. Talking of celebrities, John, just introduce me to the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, who is actually becoming, I feel, sort of more and more of a global character.
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E
Yeah. And I think part of that is his very close relationship with Donald Trump. You know, he was seen as the man who would bring to FIFA. You know, he'd change everything after the set blatter years and everything that we associated with that and that he would clean up FIFA, clean up the world game. And he's very much done it his own way. And I don't think it would be an understatement to say that he enjoys the power and there is immense power of being the FIFA president. So, you know, I'm not sure when eventually his time in that role will come to an end. And I have a feeling that if he's able to extend it as long as he possibly can, he would do that. And anyone that has been circling who, you know, is seen as a potential successor just seems to have melted away. He is an extremely powerful man, possibly the most powerful man in world sport.
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A
And let's get a little flavor of his relationship with Donald Trump. This is a little bit of their conversation in the Oval Office, which was in August 2025, when there was a handover of some, some silverware, although it was probably actually goldware. Now that I think
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B
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F
That's why we brought as well this, which is the winners trophy. It is the trophy that the winner of the FIFA World cup wins. Only the FIFA president, presidents of countries, and then those who win can touch it because it's for winners only. And since you are a winner, of course you can as well touch it. It's pretty heavy. It's the winner trophy. The last one who lifted that is Leo Messi, Lionel Messi of Argentina. And here it is in the Oval Office in the White House. Can I keep it for you? Well, you can. We're not giving it back. This is.
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D
That's. Seriously.
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F
It fits well. That goes very well on the wall right over there.
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D
We'll put it right below the angel.
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F
It fits well here. I think it's beautiful. Yeah. Until we have to give it to the next winner. That's fine. That's a beautiful piece of gold. I will say. That's beautiful.
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A
Yeah. Gianni Infantino seems to be handing things over to Donald Trump every time he sees him.
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C
Well, I was going to say that I feel like Infantino and Donald Trump's relationship certainly. Well, people's discussion about that relationship really was turbocharged when this incredibly viral clip spread everywhere. When Chelsea won this competition, which is like the. The. What is it even called?
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E
FIFA Club World Cup. Yep.
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C
Not to disparage it, not to disparage
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A
it, but that's interesting because you love football and even go back into your memory banks, remember.
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C
Well, it's a sort of new. It's kind of a bit of a new thing. And so Chelsea won this competition and there were these clips of the team lifting the trophy and Donald Trump is just standing beside them and you can see, like, you know, really famous footballers like Cole Palmer and Rhys James of Chelsea being like, like, hang on, why is this man here? Because it's. That is not normal. Like, the president or whoever doesn't normally hang about on the side of the team lifting the trophy. And a lot of people found the clip really funny. Some people were also like, hang on a sec, is this. Is this football getting political? And quite a few of the footballers afterwards, like Cole Palmer, were asked, why did you react like that? And essentially their answer was like, we weren't quite sure why he was still there, but that all of that felt quite symptomatic of the closeness of the relationship between Donald Trump and Infantino. Eg, it's totally fine for him to hang about as they lift the trophy. And it felt like Donald Trump sort of getting into football. And I would say that Infantino, separately from Donald Trump, although both of this is the case for both of them, they quite. They are either sort of very hated or very loved online. They are very, very divisive figures who are very good at kind of playing the outrage machine in that way. And Infantino is probably the first person. I, I guess I don't know what you think, John, but that there, it doesn't feel like characters often FIFA or these football bodies feel very faceless. And he's certainly not faceless. And that's been quite interesting, seeing how that's unfolded and how people direct their anger and frustration at FIFA, at Infantino specifically.
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E
Well, that scene, which was in the same stadium where the World cup final will be this year in New Jersey, on the stage, went against all of the protocols that I'm used to seeing as an observer of football, as a football commentator. You know, that's the point where the suits leave the scene. And actually, at the time, Infantino tried to persuade Donald Trump to leave Chelsea on the stage with Rhys James lifting the trophy, and he wasn't for budging.
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C
And, yeah, you sort of saw him just kind of staring at them and they were lifting this trip.
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D
They were all, welcome, welcome to Donald Trump's America, where protocol does not matter. Going to do what he wants. And if it's a big stage, as I mentioned before, he is going to find a way to get on it and stay on it, even if it makes people uncomfortable.
- [24:51]
A
Although, John, I'm just wondering, with your knowledge of World Cup's past, are there actually that many opportunities for the leader of the host country to actually insert themselves into the events in a big way?
- [25:01]
E
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we've had this probably most notably with the last couple of tournaments in Qatar. And do you remember Lionel Messi coming forward and having that cloak put on him to go and lift up the trophy? I mean, that was unusual. But, you know, again, the dignitary stayed out of the way there. And, of course, Putin was front and center of the World cup in Russia in 2018, particularly when it came to the final. And do you remember as well the president of Croatia, because the. The presentation of the trophy happened during a torrential downpour.
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C
Oh, yeah.
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E
And he was given an umbrella. But the president of Croatia, who was brilliantly turned out, she was wearing the sort of red and white checkered outfit of Croatia. She was left out on her own without an umbrella with the rain pouring down.
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C
Yeah, absolutely soaked. I honestly think Infantino is the most kind of clippable person who's ever been related to FIFA. I just think I've rarely seen.
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E
Well, Sepp Blatter gave it a good.
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C
He did, but he was not nearly exactly. But not even nearly as prolific, I would say, as Infantino. But maybe that tells us something about how social media has evolved rather than the people themselves.
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A
And, Anthony, I was talking about Infantino handing over gold things to Donald Trump. We alluded to the Peace Prize, which was newly created by FIFA, around about the time Donald Trump was at peak anger of not receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, and he handed it over to him in the draw at the Trump Kennedy center, which I remember watching that Friday afternoon and just finding a completely bizarre kind of event to watch, but quite compelling. Did that make any difference, that Peace Prize? Because I feel that is when Trump became sort of less interested in peace and actually the number of wars increased.
- [26:47]
D
And you remember he wrote that letter that was leaked to the Prime Minister of Norway saying, maybe if you're not going to give me the Peace Prize, I'm not going to do as much for peace as I had been. And lo and behold, now we've been in a war with Iran for over two months. But I think he was. I think he liked getting that World Cup Peace Prize. It was hilarious because they were so coy about who was gonna get it ahead of time. They announced there was gonna be this Peace Prize. And of course, everyone knew that Infantino was gonna give it to Trump, and he did. And Trump seemed visibly moved by that. I think they put the medal around his neck and he held the trophy and actually was in the Oval Office in December, so just maybe a week or two after that draw. And there was this Peace Prize trophy sitting right in the middle on the end of his desk, on the Resolute desk in the Oval Office. So it is. He kept it and he's kept it in the Oval Office. So it is a way. I think it illustrates how well Johnny, as Donald Trump calls him, Johnny Infantino, has been able to build this relationship with Trump, complete with Infantino, if you remember, in February, put on a red USA hat at a world. The Board of Peace, a Board of Peace meeting here in Washington, D.C. because Trump has invited him to all of these major diplomatic events. And I think that another sign that he knows how to connect with Donald Trump, he knows what Donald Trump likes, and he has been using that very effectively.
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A
Now, as we come to the end of our first episode of our trilogy of episodes of podcasts about the World cup and the issues around it and the politics and some of the themes, can anyone from my sister podcast help me out about why there's this LGBTQ Pride match? Cause of course, June is Pride Month around the world, where the two teams playing it are Iran and Egypt, which sounds like some kind of practical joke because homosexuality is not kind of famously promoted in those countries.
- [28:48]
D
Yeah, it definitely is remarkable that, that the stars have aligned for this to be this way. Now, it was a coincidence. The organizers, local organizers in Seattle are having Pride events that week. They designated us as the Pride match before we knew that Egypt and Iran were going to be the two countries playing there. But this has obviously become a bigger issue and it kind of shows how politics can inject itself sometimes by accident. And there have been objections from Egypt that this is going on during their match to no avail.
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A
Right. We have kicked off our three part series about some of the issues around the World Cup. We've looked at how it has ended up being in North America in the first place. We looked at the big personalities of two of the presidents involved, President of FIFA and Donald Trump, obviously President of the usa. Lots more to discuss in the next two episodes of our three part World cup miniseries which is a co product. Well, just like the World cup itself. What is it? What was it? What was the phrase in the bid document? Certainty, unity and opportunity. I don't know which of us which
- [29:52]
C
podcast is which country and motto newscast is. I think you're American.
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A
Yeah. I think we're all combinations of all three. Yeah.
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C
Which podcast is and then America is not America. America is not America. Weird.
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A
So much to discuss in this World Cup. John, thank you very much.
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E
Thank you.
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A
Mariana and Anthony, thanks to you too.
- [30:09]
C
Thank you.
- [30:09]
D
Bye all.
- [30:10]
C
Bye.
- [30:11]
A
And the other episodes in this series are coming your way right now.
- [30:14]
D
Bye.
- [30:14]
A
Bye. Newscast.
- [30:15]
C
Newscast from the BBC.
- [30:17]
D
Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast.
- [30:20]
C
You clearly ooze stamina.
- [30:22]
E
Can I gently encourage you to subscribe
- [30:24]
D
to us on BBC Sounds? And then without having to do anything
- [30:28]
E
else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.
- [30:32]
D
It.