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A
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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When life changes in an instant, Families battling brain cancer shouldn't have to fight alone. The Darren Dalton foundation is here to help, providing financial assistance, emotional support and real hope to patients and their loved ones right here in our community. Inspired by Darren's strength, we stand with every warrior facing this diagnosis. Join us. Support the mission.
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A
This is the second episode of our three part miniseries we're doing as a collab. Oh, I hate saying that word. I sound like I'm in Amanda land. Although I like the idea of collaborating, the actual thing is good cause we're working with AmericasT and the football Daily to look at some of the issues around the World Cup. So not necessarily the actual football, but the things that we'll be talking in addition to the football and with Donald Trump involved, there's obviously gonna be some politics and some diplomacy happen there. And helping me out is somebody who watches a lot more football than I do, Mariana.
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C
Yes, I'm here to chat football and America and social media. And we are very lucky to also be joined by Anthony who presents Americas with me, and also by John Murray who presents Football Daily. And John, I wonder if because this, in this episode we're going to be talking about the tensions between the US and Iran. Are there other World Cups where the host nation has been or not even just the host nation, but where various teams have been at war with one another, I guess, particularly the host.
- [01:38]
D
I mean, United States and Iran do have history. This is not the first time that they've been involved in the World Cup. They've played each other at World Cups in the past, in, in the aftermath of the Iranian revolution and also the Iranian hostage taking crisis. You know, so they were still in the relatively recent memory. I can also remember the Euros when Denmark stepped in to replace Yugoslavia at the time of the civil in the Balkans in 1992. There were also tensions between Argentina and the teams from the UK at the World cup in 82 and still in 86 after the Falklands War. And as well, a very famous one was the match between El Salvador and Honduras in 1969, which helped along. It was the Hundred Days War between El Salvador and Honduras and tensions were raised by a World cup qualifier between the two of them. Just when things were really reaching boiling point. And after that match they spilled over and they actually went to war together.
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A
John, you are the least doucet of the football commentary box.
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D
Well, what, what a. There is no higher praise.
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A
Well, we'll be putting all those skills to use in this latest episode, looking at some of the political issues and the international issues and the issues of war and peace around the 2026 World Cup. Newscast.
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C
Newscast from the BBC. It's going to be the world's largest sporting event ever hosted, but when the
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A
time is up, they'll have to go home.
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B
FIFA is making $11 billion off of this World Cup.
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A
If somebody buys a ticket for the
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D
final two minutes, I would personally bring him a hot dog and the Coke.
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E
It is such a unifying event. It is also about winning. I may put on shorts. I look extremely good in shorts. And join the play.
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A
Hello, it's Adam from newscast and it
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C
is Mariana in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT, but currently this sort of collab station as we'll call it.
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E
And it's Anthony in the American headquarters of AmericaLand and home to World cup matches very, very soon.
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D
And John Murray sitting at my desk where I'm preparing for my commentaries at the forthcoming World Cup.
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A
And we're recording the second episode on Thursday 4 June, mid afternoon. So it reflects the world as it is as we're sitting here in the studio at our various home studios and international Euros as well. So first of all, let's zoom in on the situation with Iran and I don't mean the war between the US and Israel and Iran, I mean Iran's presence at the World Cup. And John, is it true that Iran, by sort of quirk of fate, were one of the first few teams to, to actually qualify?
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D
Well, they were, but obviously everything has changed over the recent months in the immediate buildup to this World Cup. And, and really this is, this is the, of all of the issues that we've got and there are many, many issues surrounding this World Cup. You know, this is top of the tree, isn't it, because of the proximity and everything that's been going on over the course of recent weeks.
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A
And Anthony, do we know if the Iranian football team are actually going to be allowed to play, whether they'll be able to play in the US Will they'll be able to enter the US what's the deal?
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E
At the moment it looks like they're going to play in the U.S. looks like they will be able to enter the U.S. it does not look like they are going to stay the night in the US during their matches. The, the Trump administration had said that it was not safe for them to be here overnight. And Claudia Sheinbaum, the president of Mexico, actually stepped in and offered to host the Iranian national team in Mexico between their matches. So it appears they're going to fly in, play their match, and then go back to Mexico, which can't be all that convenient for them. But as a way of sidestepping what has been a kind of a sticky political situation here.
- [05:28]
A
Well, yeah. Cause Anthony, there was that post on Truth Social from Donald Trump in March that was actually sort of a bit ambiguous or maybe a bit contradictory where he says the Iran national soccer team is welcome to the World cup, but I really don't believe it's appropriate that they're here for their own life and safety. What's he actually getting out there? What's the threat to them?
- [05:46]
E
That's a good question. And as you mentioned, it's kind of vague what the life and safety threat threats are. I think that the Trump officials kind of walk that back after the fact. I talked to Andrew Giuliani, who Trump put in charge of security at the World cup, and I asked him about that true social post. He said, well, no, Iran is welcome here. They're welcome to play their matches here. And that Donald Trump later clarified that they could do it. But it did seem kind of like a veiled threat. Right. And also Donald Trump trying to encourage them not to come because he didn't want the, the optics, the, the visual images of Iran playing World cup matches on American soil at a time when the United States and Iran were in the midst of hostilities on the battlefield.
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A
And it also sounds like there's an issue because some of the people in the squad or who might end up being on the team had served in the irgc, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is a banned terrorist organization in the U.S. so there's a question about ability to enter the country.
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D
Well, that's right. And I think from a, you know, from the point of view of the individuals who are involved, quite apart from what's going on back in the Middle east, you know, for the players who are involved in this, there is so much uncertainty. And, you know, you bring together a squad of 26, plus all of the rest of the staff that you would normally expect to be there with a, with a World cup squad, and, you know, there'll be a whole range of opinions and feelings. I think we saw this with the women's team, the Iranian women's team, at the Asia cup in Australia earlier in the year. But we don't, you know, so much uncertainty. What sort of reception will this squad, will the team get when they actually get to the venue? So they're going to play the first two matches in Los Angeles against New Zealand and Belgium and then the third group match against Egypt in Seattle. You know, everything that will be going on around those matches, it's a total unknown. And also what will be happening politically, how will this war develop over the course of the time that they're there, and I think physically and mentally as well, to be based in Mexico, in Tijuana, and making those journeys back and forth to Los Angeles and then the long trip to Seattle as well, that will take its toll. And I know there are much more important things than what is happening in the sport, but. But if they do, if they're able to get a point at this World Cup, I would be amazed just because
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A
they'll be having such a hard time logistically. And John, I mean, we talked about Gianni Infantino, the FIFA president in the previous episode. He, to me, seems like somebody who does not want politics, diplomacy, conflict to interfere with his giant, some might say money making jamboree. But I wonder if he, like lots of people, are discovering in this era that you only have so much control and actually, once things start happening, it's in the hands of lots of other people.
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D
Yeah, but if there's one thing we know about Gianni Infantino is that he is not easily swayed. And he has been adamant from the outbreak of the conflict, from the point the war started, all of the various discussions about whether Iran would be involved. He has been unswerving that Iran would be a part of this and will play at this World cup and visa permitting, as we speak now, it looks as though we will, which is a remarkable situation. We'll be talking about this and referring back to Iran playing at this 2026 World cup for years and years to come.
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F
I sold my car in Carvana last night.
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G
Well, that's cool.
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F
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.
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G
So what's the problem?
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F
That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.
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B
Maybe there's no catch.
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F
That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
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G
Wow. You need to relax.
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F
I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?
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B
I think it's laminate.
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F
Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.
- [09:53]
G
Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. These may apply Premier protein. It's for getting after life, not just fitness. Because life isn't lived only in the gym. It's lived in the Moments that matter most. That's where Premier Protein shakes come in. With 30 grams of protein, just 160 calories and no sugar added, they're made to help people fuel their joyful lives. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. But with Premier Protein, you can say yes to more. Yes to crushing that big presentation at work, yes to building an epic fort with the kids. Yes to hitting the hiking trail with friends and still having energy left to laugh at the top. And with a wide variety of flavors, from cafe latte to cake batter, from chocolate to cookies and cream, it never feels boring. Premier Protein makes it easy to keep going strong no matter what your day looks like. Find your favorite flavor@premierprotein.com or pick them up at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers. Premier Protein, fuel your life and say yes to more.
- [11:01]
C
Also, John, there's a possibility, isn't there, that Iran could actually play the U.S. yeah, that's right.
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D
Because it's such a big World cup with 48 teams and because that means that third place teams will be going through some of the third place teams in the group, it's very difficult to work out who will play who. But it is a possibility that they could end up playing each other in the, in the round of 16. Can you imagine everything that would surround that match?
- [11:32]
C
It would be, I mean, I think that's where it's almost impossible to avoid the politics. If they meet each other and they
- [11:37]
E
actually played in 1998, the US and Iran and there was a lot of prop political tension there. And that was just because of the Iranian Revolution in 79 and the various lower level clashes between the United States and Iran over the ensuing decades. So the stage would be set for something that would be very dramatic if it gets to that. And we'll see. I don't think it's likely, but you never know with soccer. Anything's possible, right?
- [12:07]
D
Yeah. And just to give you a little bit of an insight into what players might be thinking, I mentioned earlier about Argentina playing England in 86, which was four years after the Falklands War. But I've got my copy of Diego Maradona's autobiography next to me here because there's a paragraph where he talks about this, because I do remember at the time, you know, the Argentina players would say, well, you know, this is sport, this is not about the World Cup. But in his autobiography, Diego Maradona says, quote, of course, before the match we said that football had nothing to do with the Malvinas war. But we knew a lot of Argentinian kids had died there, shot down like little birds. This was revenge. It was like recovering a little bit of the Malvinas.
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A
Wow.
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D
So that was 86. And, you know, I think you can see into the minds of the Iranian players should that situation come about where Iran plays the United States at this World cup, can't you?
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A
And we should say there's reports that they don't have their visas yet. So actually that's why we're still in the zone of speculation about what might happen. And then in the next few weeks, Anthony, talking about the US Visa regime. It's been toughened up a lot in the last year or so, and there are some countries who have qualified for the World cup, but whose citizens and by extension whose football players are almost sort of effectively banned from entering the US Right.
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E
Iran, Senegal, Cote d', Ivoire, Haiti, all of these countries are covered by the visa bans that the Trump administration has instituted. So the teams will, you would imagine, be able to get in even Iran. I don't think they want to create a diplomatic incident where they block the visas of the players, but the fans who want to come and support their teams is going to be much more difficult for them to get in. Now, the Trump administration has made provisions for streamlining visa applications from World cup countries. If you have tickets, you have a special means of applying for visas. But there's still a lot of bureaucracy. And for those specific countries, it still seems like there's some pretty significant hurdles for anyone who wanted to come here from, say, Haiti and cheer on the Haitian team, which very rarely plays in a World cup, let alone one that is so close to their home country, and yet they are going to find it very difficult to get here and to cheer for their team.
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A
And Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, said in November, your FIFA ticket is not a US visa, which must sound great if you just paid 22 grand for that ticket. Also, Anthony, I'm a bit confused about the status of the kind of the border checks that you get now if you go to the US because this whole thing about, oh, they're going to rake through all your social media posts for years and years and years, and they might do it in front of you and you might get turned away at the airport. What's the status of all that stuff?
- [15:06]
E
They said they will look and there have been some high profile incidents where people have been prohibited from entering the country, but they are, they're high profile. I think if you're a fan who is not a famous personality coming in, I don't think you have to worry too much about them going through your social media profile at this point. But it has a chilling effect. All of this has a chilling effect for people who are looking at coming into the United States for what was presented back when they announced this as a huge event that would showcase the United States and be able to turbocharge American tourism for years to come. And now there is this shadow being cast over it based on the immigration policies of the Trump administration, the crackdowns on undocumented migrants throughout this country, many of which are from countries. Many of the people are coming from countries or here from countries that are participating in the World Cup. And so it is, yeah, if I were, if I had a ticket and I was coming from someplace, I would personally not be worried too much about it. But I can understand why it would be a concern.
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C
The social media profiles thing is quite interesting because I've been getting quite a lot of messages from people who are concerned about that. Like if you post criticism of Donald Trump or J.D. vance, will you be prohibited from entering the country? And what I would say is actually, although exactly like Anthony says, there are lots of high profile examples in the U.S. i mean there are also high profile examples here recently where people have had been denied entry to the UK
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A
who you can watch live streaming.
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but they can't speak to a smaller crowd of people etc, which is, is interesting in and of itself, but I think it's just become, you know, putting. And that's not to say that it's a, that is right in any way or to make a judgment call on it, but to put people's social media like handles on visa applications I think is just becoming sort of what everyone does now. And like Anthony says, it would take a lot of time to trawl through everybody's social media, including all the football fans.
- [17:10]
A
And John, when you look at your work in the past, they'll just be very impressed, I'm sure. Mariana, we're going to talk about ICE now. Who are the Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers who were big news a couple of months ago just remind us of the context of why there was so much concern and anger around the ICE agents.
- [17:28]
C
Yeah. So there were two very high profile killings of people in the U.S. by ICE, which is this U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. And I think one of the reasons why these were such sort of high profile cases is because they were American citizens who were killed and also because they seem like the average person. And because footage of those killings was also then made available, and a lot of people had filmed the aftermath and so on and so forth. And it was quite shocking and quite emotive. And it sparked this huge conversation about whether ICE officers were going beyond what they should be doing in terms of their jobs and using violence when it maybe wasn't necessary. And then people start talking about the World cup and saying, well, hang on a second, this is just happening on, you know, a random day. What about when there are loads and loads of fans here from all different places? Are they going to be carrying out these kinds of, like, raids and checks? And could it get violent? ICE has said it's, quote, a key part of the overall security apparatus for the World cup. And that means that they're kind of involved in security, but not necessarily in terms of enforcing immigration. But I think that people are still really worried that. Does that mean that, again, violence and force could be used in situations where it gets messy and horrible and people are killed?
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A
Yeah. Anthony, do we have any more clarity on what ICE are actually going to be doing? Because it sounds like they'll be there around the stadiums along along with the police.
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E
That's the way it sounds. And they've been presented as being there to support security and to contribute to making sure that the facilities and supporting events are safe. But when you have ICE agents there, the concern is that they might start to check people's papers, to check, to make sure that they have proper documentation. And that could, as Marianda suggests, create an environment for conflict. But the Trump administration has gone out of its way to say, no, this isn't going to be. There aren't going to be raids, there aren't going to be crackdowns around the stadiums. But if you were an Iranian national or you were a Haitian national who had been in the spotlight in American politics during the presidential campaign in 2024, and you're going to have a game watch maybe someplace even far from a stadium, a lot of people getting together from the Haitian community to watch there would be concern, cause for concern, because immigration officials have targeted communities and have targeted gathering locations for undocumented migrants in these immigrant communities before. So why would they believe what the administration is saying, that there isn't going to be any kind of stepped up enforcement this time around? It seems like a risk they may not be willing to take.
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A
And, John, you're heading to Mexico. Mexico has basically had a war between the government and the drug cartels, and then between the cartels too. And for the last few years has not felt like a very safe country. And I think some people will have been put off going on, on holiday there, even though lots of the holiday areas are very, very safe. What's your take on just the sort of the security situation and the stability of Mexico at the moment?
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D
Stories about crime, you know, the. The team that I'll be traveling with, we've had extra information given to us just to be on the safe side, to make sure that everyone's okay when they go there, just to be extra alert. But at the same time, you know, I've spoken to BBC colleagues, Will Grant, our correspondent in Mexico City, who has given us very, very good advice about what it will be like being there. And I think it will be different in Mexico City. That would be my perception. Because, you know, of all of the places at this World cup where I think you will get a feel of, in inverted commas, what the World cup is all about, it's Mexico City because they are football mad. And I think I get the impression as well that maybe the anger there is. And I know we'll come on to this in our third episode, but in my experience traveling to World Cups, one of the best supported teams is Mexico. They travel in their thousands. It's an amazing event to be at. When Mexico play at the World Cup. Now they've got matches in 2026 in their own country. And so many of the people who would have traveled to those matches in other countries on the other side of the world can't afford to go to the matches that are now being played in Mexico. So I think there's a little bit of anger there as well, which is something that we'll have to be watching out for.
- [21:57]
C
And football's obviously super popular in Mexico. Anthony, how. How is it faring in the US because soccer, as, as you call it is, is not the most popular sport in America. And I certainly see a lot of posts slightly taking the mick out of American fans and suggesting that they kind of don't quite get it. Like, they're very. They're very nice and friendly with their chanting in a way that certainly us British football fans are probably less. So I don't group myself among that.
- [22:23]
E
Yeah, I think, yes, obviously football, soccer, as we call it here, is not the most popular sport in the United States. That is American football and the NFL and basketball and maybe baseball as well. But it is a growing sport. It is the. Has the highest level of youth participation of any sport in the United States. Kids grow up playing soccer here. All across various communities, about 10% of the American public says that soccer is their favorite sport of all of them. So. And that has been a steadily growing number, in part because of the growing number of migrants in this country from places where soccer is the one big sport. So something like this, this event will have, will catch on quickly because Americans like cheering for an American team. And if the US does well, if it makes it to the knockout round, you only see that kind of fanaticism grow. Now after the tournament's over, it'll go back to being one of the lower tier sports here in the United States. Certainly nothing close to the NFL, but it does have a solid, reliable fan base. And if you go to these MLS soccer stadiums, whether it's Inter Miami down in Florida, or here in D.C. with D.C. united or across the country, you will find a loyal fan base of people in the tens of thousands showing up for games regularly. So, yeah, you can make fun of the United States and make fun of the soccer fanship here, but there are a bunch of us out there and we are sticking with the sport through thick and thin.
- [24:01]
D
And let's not forget that the interest in football in the USA is probably much greater than it was when they first hosted it back in USA 94. And another thing not to overlook is of all of the previous 22 World Cups, that in 94 was the best attended. The biggest crowds because it was played in the biggest stadiums, but nevertheless, they set the records there. And this year, because it's a bigger tournament, more teams played more matches, it'll break the records again. This will be the most watched World cup of all.
- [24:35]
C
One of the things I find quite interesting is how I feel like the sort of increased interest in football in the US has gone hand in hand with football itself changing quite a lot and people deciding to support, for example, specific players rather than clubs necessarily. And it reminds me of a interaction that happened when I was out with AmericasT covering the election. And we were, there were several of us, the production team, me, standing outside of a kind of pseudo pub bar place, and someone came up to us and asked, you know, if we were British and then asked if we like football and then proceeded to tell us that they we said sort of, who do you support? And he said, I support Jude Bellingham. And I'd like never heard anyone say anything like this. I was like, you can't support us, just the player. But I think that's quite interesting because it shows how players themselves have really grown their kind of individual profiles. And there'll be lots of people in the States who will have been following them specifically. And we'll be really excited to see, you know, their favorite player, not necessarily just their club, which is kind of a new dynamic.
- [25:34]
A
Although getting into famous England players, there's some famous England players not going.
- [25:37]
C
I know.
- [25:38]
A
Actually some of your pavement correspondents might be disappointed. Mariana.
- [25:41]
C
Yeah, although I would be incredibly surprised if there were loads of massive kind of Cole Palmer and Phil Foden fans say that.
- [25:47]
D
Mariana, Cole Palmer is absolutely massive.
- [25:50]
C
Yeah, he is. And actually also because of that funny clip of him with Donald Trump, he will very much be in the American kind of conscience in that way. So maybe, yeah, maybe. They're absolutely fuming at Thomas Tuchel. Who knows?
- [26:00]
F
Right.
- [26:01]
A
Revering into what's going to be the subject of our third episode, which is a bit more about how it will feel to actually be there, some of the practicalities and logistics, and also a bit about maybe how rich you're gonna have to be to be there. That's coming up in our third episode of our trilogy from our trio of podcasts looking at the World Cup 2026. Thank you very much for listening.
- [26:19]
E
Bye bye, bye, bye bye y'. All.
- [26:22]
G
Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [26:25]
H
From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 033-01-2390. Be assured, I promise you listen to everyone.
- [27:10]
G
Premier Protein. It's for getting after life, not just fitness. Because life isn't lived only in the gym. It's lived in the moments that matter most. That's where Premier Protein shakes come in. With 30 grams of protein, just 160 calories and no sugar added, they're made to help people fuel their joyful lives. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. But with Premier Protein, you can say yes to more. Yes to crushing that big presentation at work. Yes to building an epic fort with the kids. Yes to hitting the hiking trail with friends and still having energy left to laugh at the top. And with a wide variety of flavors, from cafe latte to cake batter, from chocolate to cookies and cream, it never feels boring. Premier Protein makes it easy to keep going strong no matter what your day looks like. Find your favorite flavor@premierprotein.com or pick them up at Amazon, Walmart, and other major retailers. Premier Protein Fuel your life and say yes to more.