Ray Winstone (1:47)

AmericasT.

Marianna Spring (1:49)

AmericasT from BBC News.

Ray Winstone (1:51)

You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World World War three.

Justin Webb (1:57)

President Trump's message is very simple.

Anthony Zurcher (1:59)

We are done being taken advantage of.

Marianna Spring (2:00)

Mr. President, in the name of our God, have mercy upon the people who are scared.

Sarah Smith (2:05)

Now, are you supportive of these onesies?

Ray Winstone (2:08)

I'm supportive of vaccines.

Sarah Smith (2:09)

What is happening?

Marianna Spring (2:11)

Like, this is not America. This is a terrible nightmare.

Sarah Smith (2:14)

This is what victory feels like. Yeah.

Marianna Spring (2:28)

Hello, it is Marianna, AKA Misinformation, in the worldwide headquarters of Americas in London.

Sarah Smith (2:33)

Hello, it's Sarah here. I'm at home in Washington D.C. and.

Justin Webb (2:37)

It'S Justin also at home in South London.

Sarah Smith (2:39)

And we're hoping Anthony will join us later.

Justin Webb (2:41)

Yeah, and it's quite right that we have some element of surprise, potential surprise during the course of the next few minutes because that's what we're talking about, surprise. I mean, some not surprised in one sense, I suppose, guys, because we sort of assumed this was going to happen. But let's talk first about what actually has happened because the extent of it is what has really caused jaws to drop, isn't it? So it starts with, well, with this. Let's hear the klaxon, Elon, perhaps the.

Marianna Spring (3:17)

Most important use of the, of the Elon Musk klaxon that has ever occurred because we may have been talking a little bit about soft launches of the breakup and oh, has it actually, was it conscious uncoupling and it was all going to be okay between Donald Trump, obviously, and then Elon Musk, the richest man in the world. And lo and behold, it's not really been okay at all. There has been this very, very big falling out and breakup and I don't know how we want to stop start. It's a bit of a tit for tat, really, that becomes very memeable very quickly.

Sarah Smith (3:50)

Well, I think there was a clear point at which it started, Mariano, because Elon Musk had for a few days been criticizing what Donald Trump calls his big beautiful bill, the spending bill. And Elon Musk was complaining that tax cuts were going to add to the deficit. And what was the point of him doing all of this cutting of government spending if Donald Trump was just going to spend all this money on tax cuts and raise the deficit? And it was really noticeable that there wasn't much response at all from Donald Trump. Then there he is in the Oval Office on Thursday sitting beside the German chancellor, Frederick Merz, and he's asked about it and then just suddenly he goes for it. So have a listen. This is the first thing he said.

Ray Winstone (4:30)

But I'm very disappointed because Elon knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody sitting here, better than you people. He knew everything about it. He had no problem with it. All of a sudden he had a problem. And he only developed the problem when he found out that we're going to have to cut the EV mandate because that's billions and billions of dollars and it really is unfair. We want to have cars of all types.

Marianna Spring (4:53)

And it's probably fair to say that Elon Musk didn't take too kindly to those comments and as is his modus operandi, decided to take to X his social media platform and begin this kind of war of words where you've got Donald Trump posting on truth Social and him posting, posting on X, going from very explicit criticism of the bill to then very explicit criticism of Donald Trump.

Sarah Smith (5:17)

It must be the first time two people have gone to war on social media. When they both own their own social media platform, which is. I mean, that's quite something. And it shows you the scale of this row when you're talking about the richest man in the world, probably the most powerful man in the world, both of them with their own social media sites to launch jabs at each other from.

Justin Webb (5:37)

And the scale of the escalation was just staggering, wasn't it? Because initially you had that stuff from Trump and it all sounded like sort of measured criticism. And you might have thought, well, maybe Elon Musk in the coming days, this is how politics used to work, isn't it? Might have used coded language to say, well, I'm not sure the President's quite right on that. Although I still think he's a jolly good fellow for all the rest of it. Because, after all, he did once say he loved him more than a man can love another man who is heterosexual. This is in the context of a pretty close relationship, a very close relationship until very recently. But no, Musk doesn't do that. He just goes completely, well, as Donald Trump would put it crazy, because Trump later used that word, didn't he? And you start to get a load of things, topped, Marianna, by this extraordinary and sudden bomb, as Elon Musk calls it, where suddenly in the middle of the night, he says, time to drop this bomb. And he kind of accuses Trump, in effect, of being part of Jeffrey Epstein, this, the sex offender's coterie of people who visited him. He said he's in the Epstein files, and that's why those files haven't been released. With absolutely no evidence, we should make clear that that is the truth. But, I mean. I mean, this is a staggering kind of escalation.

Marianna Spring (6:58)

Yeah. And, you know, lots of these topics and themes that Elon Musk has now evoked and started talking about are ones that his followers on X are particularly animated around. You know, concerns about Epstein, abuse, sexual abuse, all of the kind of really serious issues that arise from talking about him and everything kind of surrounding him. And so to kind of bring that up and evoke it in relation to Donald Trump is a pretty sort of extreme way to go. It's in lots of ways not surprising. Like, if you spend your time monitoring Elon Musk's feed on X, as I do, this is how he often falls out with people. And it does become quite extreme and quite personal. The White House, you know, as you said there, Justin, there's. There's no evidence to support what he's saying. It's unverified. And the White House came out to describe these kind of comments as unfortunate. I think one of the most interesting things is the way that, you know, if you think about it, Donald Trump used to use Twitter all the time. So perhaps in an, in an old world, you would have had him and Elon Musk sort of like having that ding dong quite literally on X, like replying to each other. But because Donald Trump has never quite taken the step to go back on X, he is back on X, but he doesn't use it in the way that he used to. And you wonder whether there's this element of paragon control that he decided like, right, I'm gonna stick to Truth Social because Elon Musk ultimately is the person at the reigns on X. And that means I kind of am relying on him to be able to communicate with people. And, you know, I don't want, I don't know, whatever could happen, my algorithm to mean that I'm not being pushed to people and so on and so forth. But it's certainly like a very, a very messy breakup. And one I would say that I think we did predict when we were thinking about what may or may not happen.

Justin Webb (8:32)

Yes, we need to get to our role in the breakup. Okay, this is now so serious that Anthony has now joined us. Anthony, it's war. And I suppose the question is whether it was inevitable right from the beginning, because we suggested some time ago to bang our drum for a second. We did suggest that it was inevitable, although we don't think we saw it quite going this nuclear this quickly. But it's not a surprise, is it, that it has happened?

Anthony Zurcher (8:59)

Not a surprise. We weren't the only ones to make this prediction. But like you said, this was particularly dramatic and particularly fast. And I guess, you know, in hindsight, these are two of the biggest personalities who live their entire lives in the public. They have two of the biggest megaphones in the world, the most powerful politician in the world, the most wealthy man in the world. This has been set up for a dramatic clash and now we're seeing it unfold. But we went from zero to Elon Musk talking about the Epstein files in about three hours yesterday. So even by modern standards, that's a breakneck speed.

Marianna Spring (9:36)

Yeah.

Sarah Smith (9:36)

Because in that particular X that he posted, Elon Musk said, time to drop the really big bomb. So that suggests that this is the biggest thing he's got. He thinks he's got over Donald Trump. So he was holding nothing back. I mean, it tells you quite something about his personality, doesn't it that once you've started a fight over a spending bill, you're dropping what you call the really big bomb quite so quickly.

Marianna Spring (10:00)

One of the most interesting things that he did suggest Musk on X was that actually essentially Donald Trump couldn't have won the election without me. I'm instrumental to that. And, like, what's he kind of going to do now? And I think that's the really interesting thing, thinking about this, because this breakup has been very explosive and it's worth saying that as a consequence, it has very much caught the Internet's attention. Like the undercover voters have all not escaped like the memes. There's all sorts of tiktoks of people saying, you know, all kinds of things like, the girls are fighting, it's a falling out. It's, you know, some Internet memes all about, like, men aren't emotional. Well, maybe they are. All that kinds of stuff. And then you've also got conspiracy theory activists online who are suggesting it's actually just a fight for show that it's. It's a, it's a fake fight, it's not actually real. And then you've also got loads of memes of Baron Trump, Donald Trump's son, with people suggesting he's the one pulling the levers and saying it's time to cut off Musk now. This is what we're doing, and so on and so forth. But on a serious point, beyond those jokes and memes and everything else, which are kind of engulfing all sides of the political spectrum, but certainly some very happy people who don't like Donald Trump and Elon Musk very much, I think, is. Is that question of, like, Elon Musk has been a very useful person to Donald Trump in terms of the way he succeeds in reaching. Reaching certain groups of people on social media. This idea of being kind of not woke or opposed to those ideas and how Elon Musk certainly sort of helped him in that. That idea of being like, a bit more modern, perhaps, but then also like, too sort of like serious or not accessible or not reaching different audiences. And whether you dislike or like Elon Musk, like, he has been useful in that sense. Like, is it that Donald Trump has genuinely decided that Elon Musk is no longer of use to him, or is it that this actually is just a breakdown of a relationship that actually could backfire kind of for both of them?

Justin Webb (11:54)

Oh, I think it's a massive, massive deal, actually, for. I mean, and it is a really serious. You're quite right to Say it's serious because it's okay to look at the memes and all the rest of it. And some of the madder ones are quite fair, funny. But this really does matter politically, it seems to me, potentially. And you can see that already with people like Steve Bannon, the Trump advisor from the first term and certainly through campaigns, and he's even been to prison for contempt of Congress. I mean, he's a really keen Trump man and he is absolutely celebrating. And a lot of MAGA world is celebrating because they always saw Musk as an outsider and they always saw Musk potentially as a threat to the project, as someone who is fundamentally libertarian in his outlook. You remember Vivek Ramaswamy, the guy who himself ran for the Republican nomination for a bit sometime around Christmas, I think it was on Christmas Day, suddenly announced that he didn't think Americans were up to much anymore, particularly American children. They're having too many sleepovers and all the rest of it. And Ramaswamy, remember, was part of the kind of muscle. Well, originally was part of Doge, wasn't he? And there's this sense that these people, these sleek, wealthy people, have a view of America that actually isn't the view of a lot of MAGA supporters. And they are very, very pleased to see the back of them. And, you know, I think there is going to be some considerable amount of celebration potentially as well, actual changes in what really happens as a result of Musk going.

Anthony Zurcher (13:31)

Well, I think Elon Musk did exert an influence from within the White House, within the administration, maybe tempering some of these pushes for higher tariffs, obviously targeting parts of the government for cuts that the people who are in charge of those departments, like Marco Rubio in the State Department, didn't want with him out of the picture. Now, I think they're. There is a very real chance that policy could shift. I mean, we've talked about what Donald Trump can do to Elon Musk, and I think it's pretty clear he could cut funding for Elon Musk's programs, which are heavily dependent on government contracts. He could renew investigations into Elon Musk that the Biden administration was pursuing. He could oust all of the Musk allies who have nestled their way into government agencies. But I think it's also important that we talk about what Musk can do to Donald Trump. And you touched on this. Justin Musk can steal the spines of Republicans in the U.S. senate and help derail this spending bill. He can provide financial and political air cover for them, essentially make sure that they have the funds they need to run for reelection, even if they cross Donald Trump. Because that was a big concern among a lot of Republicans about breaking with Donald Trump. What would they do? Would Trump support insurgent candidates running against them? Musk changes that dynamic. And Musk can also threaten Donald Trump's allies with their own insurgent funded primary candidates. And Musk also can be a vocal mouthpiece for all of the things he was trying to do within the administration. Now he can argue for outside the administration and he has hundreds of millions of followers on X and can generate news cycles on his own in a way that really only Donald Trump can right now in American politics.

Sarah Smith (15:22)

It was really interesting, I thought what kind of briefings were coming out of the White House yesterday? So as these two men are slagging each other off on social media, there's an explanation being dripped into reporters ears from Trump acolytes. And they were saying, look, what this is really about is two things. That Elon Musk is upset that the big beautiful bill cuts subsidies for electric vehicles and therefore for his Tesla cars. And that he didn't get his choice to be appointed as the head of the space agency NASA. And obviously if he had a friend at the top of NASA, that would help his company SpaceX. And I mean, that may or may not be true, but it's clearly trying to signal to people, look, he was just in it for his own self interest. All he really cared about in government was making money for his companies. So don't listen to this man as the leader of any kind of movement. Don't ally yourself to him as a politician because actually it was just selfish self interest that he was trying to get out of the government. And then you hear, you were talking about Steve Bannon, Justin. I mean, he's probably the happiest man in America because he really hates Elon Musk. I think personally and politically. He thought that, yeah, as a tech oligarch, he couldn't speak for the working class.

Justin Webb (16:35)

Yeah, and it's not a new thing, is it?

Sarah Smith (16:37)

Oh no, not a new thing at all. But he has gone so far as to suggest that SpaceX, the Elon Musk company that makes them rocket, should be privatized, should be seized by the government and that Elon Musk's immigration status should be investigated because he likes to run a conspiracy theory that Elon Musk, who was obviously born in South Africa, isn't now an American citizen. So I mean, that's how far they're prepared to go. In terms of suggesting action. But I think it's not a stupid strategy to try and undermine Elon politically by saying it was just, you know, when he didn't get his way for his companies, that's when he walked out.

Justin Webb (17:14)

And of course, one of the big questions now is whether Musk. Never mind. I mean, he's not now going to fund, is he challenges to Republicans in Congress when Republicans in Congress are doing what he wants them to do. In other words, to object to the bill and not get it passed. They're pretty safe to do that now. And that might have a political impact, but further down the line, I mean, the guy is, as both of them are quite capable of doing anything now. You'd think they are remarkable, you know, remarkable in their ability to move on and to move positions. And you wonder, possibly might even fund Democrats. I mean, he's got a lot of money. It can do something in American politics. It doesn't always win. He was up in Wisconsin, wasn't in that judicial race, and he spent a ton of money there and didn't have any influence at all. So we should keep it in context. But you know, what if he goes completely rogue and starts funding Potentially in the 26 midterm elections, people to knock the Republicans out.

Anthony Zurcher (18:20)

And he used to fund Democrats. I mean, he was a Democratic donor before his heel turn last year, supporting Republicans. So in theory, he could go back. Although I think there are a lot of Democrats, probably most Democrats, who wouldn't want his money. There's a handful of them like Ro Khanna of California, who's a friend of his, who has been, who have been taking to social media, calling out for an outreach to Elon Musk. But he's been getting a considerable amount of pushback from that. So it's interesting also to think about when you talk about Donald Trump punishing Musk and what Trump could do. All of this is remarkable because it's punishing Elon Musk for expressing political viewpoints. It's punishing Elon Musk for not being loyal, for not toting the party line. And it's taken it out on his companies that have signed contracts with the federal government. I mean, it seems normal now for us to talk about this like, oh, how is Donald Trump going to get back Elon Musk? But it fits in with what Donald Trump has done to, say, Harvard as well, where there are political differences. And Donald Trump is using the power of the federal government, the purse of the federal government, to punish people who he doesn't agree with politically. And that is a remarkable turn of events to do it so overtly and, and in such huge measures.

Marianna Spring (19:37)

I think it's worth saying as well that this is a real test of the influence that Elon Musk does or doesn't have without Donald Trump. Like, before he'd endorsed Donald Trump anyways, he was already seeming to affect like what people were talking about as per what is recommended on X. And the way that, you know, a social media platform on its own now that social media platforms have in some ways like eclipsed the traditional media in lots in, in a, in a certain sense, you know, the ability to like distort and change what people care about or put things on people's agenda that they weren't talking about. It's kind of a test of the ability of Elon Musk to do that versus what Donald Trump can do. You know, he's, he's got a very good in with quite a lot of the podcasters, the streamers, the kind of alternative media world that we've chatted about a lot like, will he capitalize on that? There have been quite a few funny memes saying things like, you know, who gets Joe Rogan, the podcaster in the divorce? Like, you know, ultimately, where do all these people fall down? Do they decide? Actually they're not very happy with some of the things Donald Trump is doing and so they side with Elon Musk and they want a new party and they want new politics and all that kind of thing. Or is it tactical from Donald Trump and actually, you know, Elon Musk is perceived to be this kind of like slightly more out of touch, very rich man who runs all sorts of businesses, including a social media company. And actually this is Donald Trump's way of kind of losing him because he's not that valuable in that world anymore.

Justin Webb (20:57)

The thing that really strikes me about them both, Marianna, and this is really your world because it sort of fits into your world in a way. They are remarkably disinhibited as individuals. There's something about Donald Trump, isn't there, as a politician that makes him unique? And we've discussed that in the past. And this ability to be less inhibited in anything than most people tend to be is mirrored, isn't it, in Musk and then that fits into the social media world because a lot of people are very disinhibited on social media because they don't think they're ever going to meet the people they're being nasty about. I mean, it really does. They fit this world horribly.

Marianna Spring (21:38)

Yeah. And I think it's actually worth saying that as well, because it is very possible that on the next episode of AmericasT, they've somehow like kiss and made up and like, they both enjoy these kind of like big feuds and falling outs. And, you know, there were even bits where Elon Musk was replying to accounts that basically don't have any followers saying, like, okay, yeah, fine, I won't do that to Donald Trump then, and that sort of thing. And Elon Musk is quite famous for his, for his trolling. I've been on the receiving end of it. And he doesn't like to take anything very seriously. So, you know, is there a world where they kind of both just like pretend that it was. Whether it was or wasn't, that it was just sort of like, oh, it's just a bit of a, a funny thing. But like, it's all okay now? I mean, after some of the various political rows that Donald Trump has had with J.D. vance and Musk, you know, with people like Zelensky, for example, like, again, those things were sort of brushed off later down the line and it was kind of like, oh, we're all okay again now. Like, could that happen here or is it more? Is it longer lasting?

Sarah Smith (22:35)

There's a lot of work going on in Washington right now to try and make that happen. I mean, because it is now. Well, it's not even 9 o' clock in the morning yet, but the, the story here has rather shifted. For a wee while. It looked as though actually possibly there was going to be a call between the two men. People are so eager to brush this under the carpet, but Donald Trump has spoken on the phone to a couple of reporters already this morning and said that he has. He said he asked if he had any intention to speak personally to Elon Musk this morning. He said, you mean the man who's lost his mind? And said he was not particularly interested in talking to him right now. But it does seem as though officials in the White House are very eager to try and at least take the temperature down on this. And it would suit both of them. I mean, we've just been running through the consequences it could have for either men. I think there will be a lot of diplomatic work going on today to try and ease the pressure. And Elon Musk was backing down a little bit late last night. There were some people posting things saying, look, guys, you know, this fighting is not good for anybody. Can you please try and make up? And Elon Musk was reposting or replying to some messages like that, indicating that maybe he did want to take it down a notch. So the next stage of this story could be watching how people try and patch this up rather than make it worse.

Anthony Zurcher (23:49)

That's exactly right. The two men, despite having huge egos, despite both wanting to have the last word and priding themselves on hitting back harder than they've been hit, they do still have political views that are aligned. They still want to cut the size of government, they still want to fund various tech policies, they want to realign the American economy to focus on America. They are against big cultural issues on the left as well. So you could see grounds for them to be able to reach some sort of reproach mount. But it's going to take one side or the other giving a little bit. And as you mentioned, Sarah, Donald Trump doesn't seem interested in that right now. And Elon Musk, even if he's taken a few steps back, he could very well start up to up the ampage again. Once you make Epstein allegations, it's hard to go back from that.

Marianna Spring (24:46)

And I guess there are two different scenarios, aren't there for Musk here? Well, three if they do actually make up in the end. But there's a world where he just steps back from politics entirely and he focuses on everything, space and he kind of turns his attention to a whole new topic and he gives up on politics. He is known for doing that kind of thing and having fads of things he's interested in and not could happen. There is another world where he decides to set up a new political movement and to spearhead that and to try and stay in politics in some way, which to some extent with his social media platform and with the voice he has and the following he has like could be possible. Could he team up with like a Robert F. Kennedy Jr. In the future and it's this kind of anti establishment thing that they build on and maybe he gets Rogan and the other, you know, podcasters and like alternative media outlets on board. That's all a possibility. But then at the same time, like ultimately Donald Trump is the charismatic one, like Elon Musk is not known for his charisma. In fact, quite the opposite. So actually, is Elon Musk all the weaker without Donald Trump? Does he need someone else who's got that kind of charisma and that sort of perhaps slightly more light hearted approach, if that's the way of putting it, who people do find quite funny and likable, you know, in Some cases at least.

Anthony Zurcher (25:59)

You mentioned Joe Rogan, Marianna, and it is interesting. One of the reasons why Rogan ultimately endorsed Donald Trump was because he respected Elon Musk and said, well, if Elon Musk likes Trump, then he will like him too. So I could very well see Rogan moving over to a new kind of base of power around Elon Musk. But you know, in the end, Donald Trump is still the President and the president has considerable power and a platform that's even bigger than X. So he's probably positioned to be able to move on from this in the short term better than Elon Musk. But Elon Musk did post on X last night that he is going to be around for 40 years plus years. That's an optimistic view of life expectancy, but nevertheless. And Donald Trump is only going to be president for three and a half years. So we may see Donald Trump win the battle, but ultimately with Elon Musk sticking around and having all those resources, winning the war.

Sarah Smith (26:51)

Yeah. And let's see if Donald Trump does leave in three and a half years time, of course, because that's one of the other running stories of this presidency, his continual hints that he might like to serve another term. Elon Musk is not a good communicator though, is he? I mean, he knows how to manipulate the algorithm on X to get his views seen. He certainly knows how to make a splash with a social media post. But at the end of the day, he's not tremendously articulate. He's not really charismatic on television at all. And the idea that he could strike out, I think, and lead a political movement rather than just lend his, his weight, his tech savvy and his money to somebody like Donald Trump, who is a master communicator, I think he might find that he goes the way of Vivek Ramaswamy fairly quickly if he was to try and do it on his own.

Anthony Zurcher (27:37)

I think that's selling Vivek Ramaswamy short, who actually did manage to connect with crowds better than Musk.

Marianna Spring (27:42)

And then I think as well, it's the image that Donald Trump himself wants to project, isn't it? I mean, Trump, Trump always likes to kind of gamble on the right people and the right things. He likes to present himself as a, as a winner, as the hero, as the person who's sort of fighting the good fight. Things like some of the posts that Elon Musk is posting on X don't necessarily help his cause. And I think, and you wonder to what extent he's just decided that Elon Musk is no longer a winner in his view, and therefore it's time for him to be gone. Or whether that could backfire because the narratives that Elon Musk is so tied up with, the ones that Rogan likes, the ones around let's, you know, deal with the government corruption and the corruption in the system, et cetera, they're so tied to Musk. Is Donald Trump able to champion them while being seen in opposition to Musk? I don't know whether that's going to be that straightforward for him.

Sarah Smith (28:32)

Donald Trump really loved it when Elon Musk wore a baseball cap that instead of having Make America Great Again embroidered on it, had Donald Trump is always right. He was very, very tickled by that. And that is the point. Of course, he wants to be proven right at the end of the day. And I think it's going to take some kind of concession from Musk, maybe not wearing that hat again in public, but something Donald Trump will want to extract to make it look as though he has won this battle. It's almost certain that we will return at some point to Elon Musk and Donald Trump's relationship, whether it's the ongoing breakup or whether it's the start of the makeup. But until then, we'll see you all later. Bye bye.

Anthony Zurcher (29:19)

Bye bye.

Marianna Spring (29:24)

Ameracast from BBC News.

Justin Webb (29:27)

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an Americaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk, the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually, on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon, so until then, see you later. By.

Sarah Smith (30:15)

Foreign.

Justin Webb (30:27)

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

Ray Winstone (30:41)

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on.

Anthony Zurcher (30:46)

It almost feels like your eyeballs are.

Ray Winstone (30:48)

Going to come out of your head.

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