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- [00:00]
Dominic Casciani
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- [01:38]
Adam Fleming
Big news on the royal front. So we've assembled some big news makers. Here in the studio is Johnny diamond, our royal correspondent. Hello, Johnny.
- [01:45]
Johnny Diamond
Hello, Adam.
- [01:46]
Adam Fleming
And also on the line, making a rare weekday appearance because so big is the news, it's Laura Kay. Hello, Laura.
- [01:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, Adam. What a story.
- [01:54]
Adam Fleming
Well, I remember last autumn, Laura, when this was all sort of starting to brew again. You and I having a conversation about, ooh, will the taboo about even talking about the Royal family in the House of Commons be broken? And this now just seems like a whole other universe to that.
- [02:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah, that seems a lifetime ago, doesn't it? And, yeah, we talked about that, we wrote about that. At the time. There was this sense of is that shift beginning in politics where after decades of being allergic to making the merest tiny word comment about the royal family in any way, shape or form, well, taboos have been broken all over the place. Not least this arrest, which, unless there's something that isn't out there in the public domain that none of us know about, is the first time there's been an arrest of a royal or somebody in line for the throne was since King Charles was arrested back in the 17th century.
- [02:42]
Adam Fleming
And actually, Johnny, if you look back at the long, long history of the country talking about the royal family, there was an era when there'd be a bit of tiptoeing around. That era ended a long time ago. But this is such a long way from that, that sort of the deference times.
- [02:56]
Johnny Diamond
No, this is. I mean, this is. It's absolutely astonishing and I appreciate everyone's been rifling through history books and looking up trials of dukes and things like that. None of that matters. None. Because these times are different times. These are completely different times. All that stuff from whatever before the war or whenever it was, it's totally unimportant. This, the proximity of this to the monarch, to the institution of both the royal family and of the crown, because they are sort of curiously separate. I know it sounds a bit bonkers, but the proximity is just astonishing. This is the King's brother, this is the son of the late Queen. It's astonishing.
- [03:36]
Adam Fleming
So much to talk about around the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, which we are going to talk about in this episode of Newscast, which we're recording on Thursday at 1:30 in the afternoon newscast.
- [03:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
Newscast from the BBC.
- [03:49]
Adam Fleming
Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons. I was the tattletale in the classroom. Can I have an apology, please?
- [03:54]
Dominic Casciani
I trust almost nobody that Daddy has
- [03:57]
Adam Fleming
to sometimes use strong language. Next time in Moscow.
- [04:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
I feel Delulu with no Salulu.
- [04:02]
Adam Fleming
Take me down to Downing Street. Let's go have a tour.
- [04:05]
MyFico Advertiser
Blimey.
- [04:07]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
- [04:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
and hello, it's Laura on the phone
- [04:10]
Adam Fleming
and Johnny diamond, our royal correspondent, is here in the studio. Hello, Johnny.
- [04:13]
Johnny Diamond
Hello, top team.
- [04:14]
Adam Fleming
And we'll be joined at some point by Dominic Casciani, our home and legal correspondent. First of all though, Laura, let's just talk about how this news emerged. Our colleague Lucy Manning breaking it mid morning on Thursday that Thames Valley police had arrested Andrew Mountbatten Windsor as part of their investigation into misconduct in public office.
- [04:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's right. And Thames Valley police had already said they were assessing a complaint over the alleged sharing of confidential material by the former prince with the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. So we knew, knew that the police were looking at Claims they were looking at some of the information that has emerged after the avalanche of information that had come out from those millions of documents connected to Jeffrey Epstein. But goodness me, when the news actually was broken, it still felt absolutely epic. And it is, as Johnny's been saying, an incredible moment. And I think because it's so big, let's just take you through the statement from the police because these things can be very, very sort of bold and shorn of any, any real kind of detail or colour. But I think it's really important actually today to go through the statement line by line. So shall I do the first bit
- [05:24]
Adam Fleming
or do you go ahead?
- [05:25]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah. Okay. So, as part of the investigation, we have today arrested a man in his 60s from Norfolk on suspicion of misconduct in public offices and are carrying out searches at addresses in Berkshire and Norfolk. The man remains in police custody at this time. So as things stand, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, who still has a place in to the throne, is being held by police who are searching what we can assume are properties where he has stayed on the royal estates in Norfolk and in Berkshire.
- [05:58]
Adam Fleming
And Jonny, we've seen some pictures of what looks like police cars arriving at those various venues.
- [06:03]
Johnny Diamond
It is, it's the, it's the sheer sort of banality, the kind of normalness, you know, police going up to a house, knocking on the door, someone going around the back, we hear to make sure whoever it is doesn't scarper out the back. And then that statement that Laura's just read out, a man in his 60s from Norfolk, well, blow me down. That's not how we normally refer to members of the Royal family, senior members of the Royal family. It's the very plainness, the kind of normalcy that is so breathtaking alongside all the legal, constitutional and moral implications as well.
- [06:35]
Adam Fleming
And we'll talk about the statement that we got from the King in a second. Cause that's also worth looking at line by line. But just. Johnny, in terms of what we know, do we know anything more about what actually happened this morning beyond those pictures?
- [06:47]
Johnny Diamond
I mean, not much apart from.
- [06:50]
Adam Fleming
Well, we know that the Royal Family weren't contacted by.
- [06:52]
Johnny Diamond
No, we know. So we know, we, we know that. We, we understand that is the case that, that there was no kind of tip off. No, not, not even a sort of polite. This is what we're going to get up to. Which again is a reminder quite where Andrew lies within the orbit and defections of the Royal Family, but also a reminder of the sort of way in which the machinery of, of the country is sort of straining to. To make this abnormal event so very normal. So, no, they didn't get advice. We understand that it was, what, around 8 in the morning, you see a whole load of cars go up. I mean, it's. It. And, and it is a man being taken away, a man in his 60s from Norfolk.
- [07:35]
Adam Fleming
And when Dom turns up in a second, we hope we can talk a little bit more about what actually happens when somebody is arrested, what being in police custody actually means. And we'll look a bit more about what the law says about. About the crime that's being considered here or being investigated by. By Thames. And then, Laura, the rest of this statement. There's then a quote from Assistant Chief Constable Oliver Wright saying, following a thorough assessment, we've now opened an investigation into this allegation of misconduct in public office. It's important that we protect the integrity and objectivity of our investigation as we work with our partners to investigate this alleged offence. We understand the significant public interest in this case and we will provide updates at the appropriate time. And I suppose, Laura, there's two things going on there. The police saying, actually, journalists, members of the public, be careful what you say about this, because if it goes to court, it needs to be watertight. And what people say can affect the court process. But also the police acknowledging that everyone wants to know what's going on, so maybe they would give us more information than if this was just a normal member of the public.
- [08:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think that's exactly right. And newscasters might think there's something that's a quirk of our system here and they'd be right in that, actually, when there are high profile cases, if it's the sky high profile, as in this case or some other dreadful crime or something that's taken place in the blaze of publicity, it is very unusual for police actually to say, yes, this is Mr. Miggins, or this, in this case is Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. So there's this sort of mysterious element where they say, aha. We're not naming them, but then the clue, we know there's lots of public interest. So sort of by the back door, the authorities are confirming that the person in question is indeed the person in question who's going to be subject of all these headlines. But the police carefully and deliberately making that very important point, not just for us, but anybody who fancies going on social media and, you know, saying what they think about this this afternoon. We have a pretty strict set of contempt of court laws in this country. They differ a bit in different parts in the uk, but they're pretty strict. This is not a time for people to be wildly speculating about exactly what someone has done or not done. And we will be careful in that across the BBC, in terms of the reporting of this, and that's an important reminder from the cops that that has to be the case.
- [09:54]
Adam Fleming
And Johnny, we haven't heard directly from anyone representing Andrew Mobatten Windsor today. What we've got to kind of fall back on is things he's let it be known previously.
- [10:04]
Johnny Diamond
Yes. So he has always strenuously denied the allegations of sexual impropriety that have been placed in front of him. He has always denied that he made any financial gain from his various roles and positions. And he's always denied breaking any law. So, you know, that's. That, that's where we are with all of this.
- [10:26]
Adam Fleming
And it's important to stress, I mean, we don't know the details of the police investigation, but from their statements and the potential crime they're looking at, that's nothing to do with, say, Jeffrey Epstein's young female associates. This is misconduct in public office. So this would be a person's role as a public figure? Yes, yes. Working on behalf of the public.
- [10:48]
Johnny Diamond
Yes. So the very strong presumption is that this reaches to the period where the then Prince Andrew was trade envoy or a special trade representative, that's between 2001 and 2011. And various allegations have been aired over the last few in relation to that role.
- [11:10]
Adam Fleming
And just to clarify, when I said Jeffrey Epstein's young female associates, I was trying to use that as a catch all term for people that he knew, people that would say that they were victims of his too. So I wasn't trying to downplay what was going on there. Dominic Cassiani is here. Hello, Dom.
- [11:25]
Dominic Casciani
Hello.
- [11:26]
Adam Fleming
We were just going through the Thames Valley police statement line by line, and I just wanted you to elaborate on some of it. For example, being in police custody. Paint a picture of what, what that means?
- [11:38]
Dominic Casciani
Well, I mean, it's a world away from what people would imagine from like the 1970s and, you know, crime dramas and stuff. Look, police custody is pretty basic, but it's not inhumane. And there are really strict rules around it to make sure that it's decent and there is dignity in it. But basically police custody, custody is now centralized in each force, so it's less about police stations and more about places called investigation centers. And within those you have a custody suite collection of maybe like 20 cells which are used 24, 7. And then there's like all the back operations of the interview rooms and then conference facilities where detectives sit around and sort of build the case. And then alongside that, medical facilities. It's really important for the police to ensure that people they're holding have appropriate medical care. You can have some exceptionally vulnerable people in care who, you know, God forbid, may want to harm themselves. So it's really important for the police to have those in place. And, you know, there are changes of clothing. You. Everyone will have seen clips from the news of people who've been put on trial and they're in tracksuits. In police interviews, it's not through choice, it's just that's the change of clothing you're given, that kind of thing. And there's also meals, proper meals, and also an opportunity to sleep. So you can't be literally brow beaten into interviews over the course of 24 hours until you finally confess to something you may not have done. It's very strictly controlled, the whole process.
- [13:01]
Adam Fleming
And a person can have their solicitor with them.
- [13:03]
Dominic Casciani
They can. And I think one of the intriguing things about this is we don't know at the moment whether Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has his own lawyers or whether he's taken the course, which many people do in the shock of the moments and hours after initial arrest of turning to the local duty solicitor who. There are rotors across all parts of England attached to each police force area. And these are incredibly hardworking, expert local solicitors. And I mean, they're amazing people when you meet them. I don't know how do the hours they do, and they literally are there at the drop of the hat to advise someone who's just been brought into custody, perhaps for the first time in their life, and saying, look, these are your rights. Have the police read your rights to you? Have they cautioned you and everything? I advise on the basis of what we know so far, what I've seen from the police, this is how we should conduct the interview. And very often they may advise a client not to say a great deal in the initial hours, if anything at all. Duty solicitors can then effectively hand over to a specialist solicitor. That's often common where somebody already has a solicitor because they've been involved in the police before, or perhaps, well, a good example would be like a really specialist criminal matter, like terrorism or white collar crime. There are only so many solicitors in the country who are specialists in those fields and ideally you need their help as well as the very, very important people who do the duty solicitor work.
- [14:26]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. And in a Minute I'll pick your brains about misconducts in public office, what the law actually says about. But Laura, let's do another statement then let's do the statement from, from the King, from Buckingham palace, because that's also quite, quite jaw dropping when you actually see it in black and white.
- [14:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
It is. And I was just as listening to Dom imagining Andrew Mountbatten Windsor being in police custody. Just the incredible nature of the fact that a member of the royal family is in police custody. And as you say, his family responded incredibly quickly. You know this. The time has gone by when the past used to keep their mouths and very, very firmly shut in times of crisis. Today, the palace has responded very, very quickly. And it's interesting, it's the statement from the King that is making headlines around the world. I've just been looking on sort of CNN and the States, Fox in the States, Sky News Australia. It's a statement from the King that is really, really making those global headlines. And here it is. He says, I have learned with the deepest concern the news about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities. As I have said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. As this process continues, it would not be right for me to comment further on this matter. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all. CHARLES R. Well, that is extraordinary. The King there issuing a statement about his brother being held by the police, issued within hours of his arrest. Not just backing the police to do whatever they think is appropriate, but also, I think in that last line, really trying to separate himself and the other members of the royal family from his own brother. My family and I will continue. This person is someone who the police must pursue.
- [16:40]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, Johnny. And interpret that statement for us. Not that she needs much interpretation, we just hear it.
- [16:44]
Johnny Diamond
No, I mean, you know, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, this is the stuff of kings and queens and Shakespeare and the long history of these isles, but this division between the brothers, this forcing the King to speak as head of state, essentially forcing him to divest himself of a private life. I mean, this whole affair, this whole scandal, it goes to the heart of this tension that they always have between public role, private role, private life, and separating them and making it clear what is open, what is closed, it's hideous for them because it casts doubt on the divisions that they have cast. But you've got one, him acting as the head of state, where he says, look, nothing more to say, I'm the King, these are my police forces, my courts. But secondly, that reference to duty and service, which is the foundation stone of the modern monarchy, which is the mantra of the Royal family and which does not sit at all happily with the investigation and arrest of the King's brother, who was, until a matter of weeks ago, a very senior member of the Royal family and completely enmeshed in the institution itself.
- [18:10]
Adam Fleming
The things that jump out at me when Laura was reading that statement is first of all, just the fact he refers to Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. That's just an individual. There's no affection, kinship, familiarity, family stuff there at all. Like he's issuing a statement about a person that he doesn't even know. And of course, that's a sort of inference from hearing it, as opposed to me trying to psychoanalyze the King. Then the other thing where he says, let me state clearly, the law must take its course. The extent to which the Royal Family do not want to suggest there could be any kind of COVID up here or special treatment or kind of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, golden triangle stuff between all the different private secretaries, like this is this is going to happen in.
- [18:49]
Johnny Diamond
With.
- [18:49]
Adam Fleming
In a transparent way.
- [18:50]
Johnny Diamond
No, sure. And that, I mean, people, listeners, newscasters will have to, you know, make their own call on how they see that separation between Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, until very recently, Prince Andrew and the rest of the Royal Family. But, yeah, it's clear that that's the, the, the attempt that the King is making today. It's just, again, this is not, you know, Prince Harry lashing out drunk at the end of a long night as a teenager outside a nightclub. Nor is this, you know, someone's desperately unhappy divorce spread out over the papers and news bulletins over a decade. This is the intermeshing of the Royal Family, the monarchy and the state, the government. Prince Andrew was doing a government job and that makes this very different from previous palace scandals.
- [19:46]
Adam Fleming
And Laura cast our minds back for us to what the trade envoy job actually was that Prince Andrew was doing. It was 2001 to 2011.
- [19:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah. I mean, a trade envoy is a sort of slightly curious job. So governments tend to have rather a lot of them. They're often politicians. At the moment, there are 32 of them and essentially there are kind of best mate, kind of, you know, they're not, they're not officially a Diplomat. They're not an ambassador, but they are somebody who provides a connection between any British government and then governments overseas. And they're a kind of. They're slightly curious and frankly, sometimes the jobs are dished out. The suspicion is that they're kind of sweeties to people who've done something nice for the government who is in charge. But essentially what they're meant to do in a formal sense is be a link between a foreign government and its business community particularly, and the government at home. But it is something. It's one of these things. It's a bit odd, frankly. It's a voluntary job and it's unpaid, but it does carry with it a certain amount of status. But if you look at the list of people who've got them right now, they're mainly either MPs or peers or people who have, you know, done something kind of political. And they tend to be often friends of the current government.
- [21:09]
Adam Fleming
And also just on the timeline of it. This was a long time ago, Johnny, wasn't it? I was thinking I was a very, very junior political covering Prince Andrew. The pressure on him to be kicked out of the job in like 2010. That's when Bill and Sian were presenting breakfast news. That's how long ago that was.
- [21:26]
Johnny Diamond
Or even news cards.
- [21:27]
Adam Fleming
I mean, I'm still fairly junior in the organization, but I'm just trying to remind people about this is a long time ago.
- [21:33]
Johnny Diamond
No, it is a long time ago. It's worth remembering the longevity, the time he was in post.
- [21:43]
Adam Fleming
A decade.
- [21:44]
Johnny Diamond
It's very difficult. Funnily enough, it's difficult to get hold of the number of foreign trips he did. One figure I saw was 75 over 10 years, but I wouldn't bet my little finger on that. And of course, you know, Laura is right. The post is unpaid, but the expenses and the organization is provide are provided by the government. And I was talking to Andrew Loney at the weekend, who's this author of this absolutely brutal biography of Andrew and Sarah Ferguson. And he was saying, you know, how many people were involved in all those trips, enabling all those trips, sorting them out, organizing them? Do they have things to say? Because his implication was that they have lots to say. So it's a very long trail is all I'm saying.
- [22:30]
Adam Fleming
Well, and of course, Laura, any government or government adjacent job, and especially something that involves foreign travel and embassies and ambassadors and meetings with minutes, there is a huge potential document trail to be looked at there.
- [22:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, there is. And notwithstanding questions about Andrew's role As a trade envoy, there have been from time to time concerns about the transparency of trade envoys. What they are up to, how much they cost, are they really providing bang for buck? Are they just going around the world having a nice time at the taxpayers events? You know, it's one of these things. It's hard to quantify the value that they might actually bring in. Successive governments have defended the work that they do, but it is one of these areas where there's a slightly kind of mysterious sense of what they're really about. And as things stand currently, I think, as I understand it, they are sort of officially run by the business department, but of course that's alongside the diplomatic service, which is run by the Foreign Office. There is quite a lot of sort of room for confusion, shall I say? And there have been questions about whether or not there's enough transparency about these roles at all.
- [23:44]
Adam Fleming
And what I think is interesting is that, okay, the Royal Family is one institution. We're not used to seeing emails between different members of the Royal Family being entered into the public domain. But you and I, as political journalists, are very used to seeing emails that people thought were private, then ending up in public for whatever reason, and are seeing in black and white how business is conducted. That's kind of what I was getting at.
- [24:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, that's absolutely right. I mean, you know, how, how things happen, how things are made. This document trail and this astonishing trail of documents from the Epstein files has already had profound implications for all sorts of different people in big jobs around the world. It has also both dragged out, but also been what some of the victims of Epstein wanted to see. You know, Sunshine is always said be the best disinfectant. People have always said. Many campaigners have always said, until this is all out there for everybody to see. Every bit of communication that that man conducted between him and his network of powerful, influential and often wealthy people around the world. That push has been going on for many, many months, saying until all of this is out there in the public domain, it will never be possible to understand the extent of what really went on. And, you know, just for a moment, and it's worth acknowledging, there are many different people in powerful positions in different countries whose careers have had consequences as a result of this massive document dump. You know, hear the story around Andrew, and who knows if there'll be criminal charges and who knows where that will all end. But that's only one of the outcomes of this astonishingly enormous cache of documents that has been coming out into the public domain in the last few weeks. And there's another thing we haven't even touched on. Gordon Brown, a former Prime Minister who seems to have sort of turned into half Woodward, half Bernstein, rather than former Prime Minister in the last few weeks. He's put a statement out today talking about other information that he's submitted to different police forces based on his understanding of what's happened.
- [25:51]
Adam Fleming
And, Johnny, my understanding is you've got to go and do other news outlets, so I'm going to let you go, but have a parting. No, don't worry, but leave us with a parting word.
- [25:59]
Johnny Diamond
Oh, I watch this space. I mean, this has the capacity to be very bad for the Palace.
- [26:06]
Adam Fleming
Well, that's a very good point on which to leave. Johnny.
- [26:10]
Dominic Casciani
Thank you very much.
- [26:10]
Adam Fleming
I'll let you move the microphone out the way and scoot around the coffee table in the newscast studio. Thank you very much. Right, Dom, you were tapping away furiously on your laptop there. I noticed misconduct in public office. I know you've spent a lot of time looking into what the law says about that as a potential crime, and there's a lot to say about it.
- [26:28]
Dominic Casciani
Yeah. I think it's also just worth noting before we get into that, given that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has been arrested and that means he has to have been taken to a police station, the police have the right to take his photo, custody shot, his DNA and his fingerprints. Can you imagine that moment? I mean, that must have been an extraordinary moment actually for that to happen. Happen. So misconduct in public office. Yeah, look, it's really complicated offense and I first came across it, gosh, years ago when we had all the allegations of news organizations paying public officials the stories which came out of the downfall of the News of the World. And in essence, what it means is it's basically not an offence which was created by Parliament, which meant nobody sat down and kind of drew this up. It effectively evolved over the centuries. And in essence, it means it's the crime of somebody who's carrying out some kind of public role on behalf of the public, and they do something seriously wrong as part of that role, knowing that it was wrong to do so. And in the context of the newspaper cases, as we're referring to, those cases came down to very often situations where you had a police officer or a prison officer or some other official, and they had private information, such as information from the police national computer, and they were accused of passing it on or selling it to journalists or giving it to them as a tip, knowing that that particular piece of information was protected and shouldn't have been in the public domain. Those were the kind of allegations. So you can see there you've got someone who's acting as a public official,
- [28:14]
Adam Fleming
got to prove that they're a public official in the first place. Capacity that they're acting in.
- [28:18]
Dominic Casciani
Yeah. So that's the first thing you've got to prove they're a public official. You've got to prove that the act that they are accused of carrying out, which was wrong, was something which was part of their actions as a public official. So just give you an extreme, ludicrous example. If you had a civil servant who deliberately knocks down his or her neighbour's wall, that wouldn't be misconduct in the public office. That's criminal damage. It's nothing to do with the fact they were a civil servant. But if that civil servant took information about their neighbourhood and then went away into, like, you know, government databases and started looking them up and then used that information against their neighbour, that would be misconduct in public office. To just give you two examples. Yes. Now, once you've got that, you've then got this really complicated test which basically says, if I can find it on front of my laptop here, I wrote this this morning. They've got. Detectives have got to look for evidence that the incident in question saw the suspect willfully neglecting to perform their duty or willfully misconducting themselves in some other way. Now, that's a really wordy definition and it's been a long source of legal debate, but by and large, what's happened in these cases is if the first two tests have been met, it's that kind of thing, which is basically put to the common sense of a jury, which is why misconduct in public office is in the jargon known as the indictable only offence, which means it goes to Crown Court, it goes to jury. Now, once the police are over those three stages of sort of considering what the evidence is, the final stage is whether somebody actually has a defence, did they do this without justification or some other good reason. And that's a really important part of the setup because it allows somebody to say, well, look, the information that I passed from A to B, in the example of the prison officer or the police officer in the newspapers or the act which you say was a crime, there was good reason for this and it's not actually what you think it is, and that's a really important part. So a lot of this comes down to really, really case specific, you know, really, really kind of like fine judgment calls. And it's. It's a really, really, really complicated offense at the end of the day. And because it's never been defined by Parliament, that has made it quite, quite difficult to prosecute. And it only really came into vogue again after the news of the world's collapse and became used a little bit more after that.
- [30:45]
Adam Fleming
And just to be really clear to newscasters, that's us talking about the law in a generic sense. Yeah. As opposed to applying it to any particular cases that we might be talking about today. And then, Laura, just expanding this out to the rest of the world. We've had a statement from the family of Virginia Giuffre.
- [31:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, they say at last today, our broken hearts have been lifted at the news that no one is above the law, not even royalty. On behalf of our sister, Virginia Robert Chauffre, we extend our gratitude to the UK's Thames Valley Police for their investigation and arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. He was never a prince. For survivors everywhere, Virginia did this for you. That statement's from sky and Amanda Roberts and Danny and Lynette Wilson. Now, we should say again that as we understand it, what the police are looking at here is not the allegations around the former prince's alleged sexual behavior with Virginia Giuffre. He's always denied that. And that is not what we think the police are looking at in this question. However, I think that statement from Virginia Giuffre, of course Epstein's most prominent accuser, who made allegations about Andrew over many years, will still be something that many people around the world find moving. So an extraordinary event today in the long running tangle of this enormous news story, but one that's not over by any stretch.
- [32:12]
Adam Fleming
And Dom, just before we wrap up, a couple of kind of technical questions for you. How long can it remind me how long a person can be held in custody before they have to be released or charged?
- [32:22]
Dominic Casciani
Oh, this is very complicated.
- [32:23]
Adam Fleming
I knew you were going to say that.
- [32:24]
Dominic Casciani
There are whole books on this stuff. No, I mean, it's quite straightforward. Right, so, so Basically, up to 24 hours initially, then the police superintendent can authorise up to 36 hours. Now, after 36 hours, if somebody needs to be held longer or the police believe that person needs to be held longer, they can only be held for longer if it's a serious crime, which means the case going to Crown Court and that they've actually got the say so of the court, the magistrate to do so, and that can be up to 96 hours. So four days. Terrorism is different. That's 14 days, just per that's one side. In practice, though, what happens in a lot of cases, particularly where there is no issue of some kind of risk to the public, the police will arrest somebody, they will try and secure evidence. We know that the research is going on at properties relating to Andrew at the moment. They may, for instance, see someone's passport and say, right, we've held you for six hours, seven hours or whatever. We've done an initial interview with you, we're now going to. To bail you until March, April, whenever. Right. Whilst we continue our investigation, you are banned from leaving the country because we've got your passport. Come back, then that detention clock pauses at that point and then when they come back in, they can be basically taken back into custody. So it's quite a complicated situation. Can I just make one other point about misconduct in public office? Because I've been sent a very, very useful message from
- [34:00]
Adam Fleming
don't reveal your sources.
- [34:01]
Dominic Casciani
Yeah. No, no, no. Peter Stringfellow is a very, very good solicitor, deals with lots of complex stuff. And Peter Stringfellow makes the point that public office is primarily defined by its functions, not its status. So you can be in public office carrying out a role, but not actually have some kind of official title.
- [34:20]
Adam Fleming
Yes.
- [34:20]
Dominic Casciani
And this is important and it just shows how complicated it is. And it's one of the arguments why the current government, coincidentally has been pushing a reform of this whole crime through Parliament. Happens to be for Parliament to make a lot of this clearer, because when it gets to court, each of these cases is really hotly fought over.
- [34:38]
Adam Fleming
And then one last technical question. When there is a criminal prosecution and it goes to court in this country, it's listed as basically the King versus the person who's been prosecuted, because it's the King's legal system, it's the King's court.
- [34:51]
Dominic Casciani
Court.
- [34:51]
Adam Fleming
Rex.
- [34:52]
Dominic Casciani
Yeah, Rex. Rex V. So look, we're a world away from that, because before you get to that stage, you have to have the Crown Prosecution Service looking at a charging file where, if even one gets that far, you could get to a point where the police say there's no further action and the file doesn't even get to the Crown Prosecution Service. There is for newscasters, there's a really healthy, nerdy debate going back literally decades, which you can find all over the Internet, about whether the King can give evidence in his own courts. If you've got a sleepless night, go for it. It's a really, really interesting.
- [35:25]
Adam Fleming
Or even if you're just interested and I suppose, Laura, in terms. And I'm Just thinking about you doing, getting ready for your program on Sunday. There's a sense where this story could dominate the airwaves for, well, months or years, as Dominic was suggesting there. But equally there is, there is now an active police investigation which curtails what people can say about it. So actually it could, could fade a bit into the background while still being very important.
- [35:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, it might. And that would probably be the most convenient situation from the government because of course they obviously don't A, want to do anything to get involved in A, a criminal case in any way, shape or form. They also B, don't want to be seen to be criticizing the Royal family in any way, shape or form. But C, it ain't all going to be up to them. So we will have to see how brave or not opposition politicians want to be on this particular issue in the next couple of weeks. And straight out of the blocks is Stephen Flynn, the SNP Westminster leader, who has said this is a very serious development. It underlines why it was a bad misjudgment for Keir Starmer to block Parliament from debating action against Andrew back in October. The former prince should have been stripped of his titles and roles as quickly as possible. He goes on to say it underlines why Starmer must stop delays and bring forward legislation as fast as possible to remove Peter Mandelson's title peerage and his taxpayer funded payout in pension. There's no excuse for further delay. So what how opposition politician sees opportunity kicks ball, Whether it lands at the back of the net, we'll see.
- [37:04]
Adam Fleming
But the ripples are already spreading. Laura, good to catch up with you midweek.
- [37:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
Dominic, lovely to talk to you.
- [37:10]
Adam Fleming
Looking forward to getting your email and landing in my inbox at teatime this afternoon. Get scribbling. And Dominic, thank you for all your amazing legal Internet searching and analysis today.
- [37:21]
Dominic Casciani
Thank you, Adam, thank you.
- [37:23]
Adam Fleming
And that's all for this episode of Newscast, which we recorded on Thursday 19th February in the afternoon as we were processing the news that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, the King's brother, eighth in line to the throne, was arrested by Thames Valley police as part of their investigation into misconduct in public office. And we will be back with another episode of Newscast very soon.
- [37:41]
Dominic Casciani
Bye bye.
- [37:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [37:44]
Newscast Outro Host
Well, thank you for making it to the end of another Newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chats will miraculously make its way to your phone.
- [38:11]
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