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- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
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John Murray
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Adam Fleming
to get free items.
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- [00:21]
Chris Mason
Wanna be a star?
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Premier Protein Advertiser
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- [00:39]
Adam Fleming
Chris, should we explain the slightly jigsaw nature of this latest episode of newscast?
- [00:43]
Chris Mason
Well, help me out.
- [00:44]
Adam Fleming
Oh yeah, because you don't actually know.
- [00:45]
Faisal Islam
No.
- [00:46]
Chris Mason
And also you are something of a jigsaw aficionado, aren't you? So.
- [00:49]
Adam Fleming
Oh, in the era when we all had less to do. Oh no, it's hard to find the time.
- [00:57]
Chris Mason
Can't you get like a 50 piece one or something?
- [00:59]
Adam Fleming
I've developed far too small. I still want, I still want a challenge. Anyway, the challenge in tonight's episode which we're recording on Thursday evening is that the first half we're recording now and you will hear me and Chris talking about the Question Time by Election special that came from Makerfield and we'll play some clips from that and then the second half will be what me and Chris recorded earlier on on Thursday, which is our regular look back at event of the week with Alex Asyth and Faisal Islam, which was broadcast on BBC One ironically after Question Time but recorded before Question Time. Yeah, but we'll play out in the right order now.
- [01:38]
Chris Mason
I see what you mean about the jigsaw. I'm with you.
- [01:40]
Adam Fleming
Yes, exactly. That was a three piece jigsaw.
- [01:43]
Chris Mason
Good luck with the 2000 piece one.
- [01:46]
Adam Fleming
Newscast.
- [01:47]
Alex Forsyth
Newscast from the BBC.
- [01:48]
Adam Fleming
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [01:51]
Faisal Islam
We are in the midst of a rupture.
- [01:53]
Chris Mason
Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [01:55]
TikTok Advertiser
Six, seven.
- [01:57]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor. Daddy has. Has also a special connotation thinking about
- [02:03]
Faisal Islam
it like a panto helped.
- [02:05]
TikTok Advertiser
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:07]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
- [02:09]
Chris Mason
and it is Chris at Westminster and
- [02:10]
Adam Fleming
in case you didn't follow my convoluted explanation, we're recording this half of newscast on Thursday evening and it's just about 10:30 and this evening Chris and I have been glued to our TV screens because Fiona Bruce was in Makerfield hosting a classic film format of Question Time but in a non classic way because the panel was made up of five candidates in the Makerfield by election. There was Andy Burnham for Labour, Robert Kenyon for Reform uk, Michael Winstanley for the Conservatives, Jake Austin for the Liberal Democrats and Sarah Wakefield for the Green Party. And Chris, the first sort of 20 minutes of the programme was just all on one question about how could they restore trust in politicians.
- [02:49]
Chris Mason
Yes. And therefore ended up being dominated by two themes. Firstly, the most obvious theme, because you can see it from the International Space Station, which is, why is this by election happening and Andy Burnham's ambitions and the future of the Labour Party and who might be the next Prime Minister, et cetera, et cetera. And the extent to which that is either a noble thing to do or causing a by election unnecessarily. And there was a fair smattering of arguments in both directions there. And then for his principal rival in this contest, which is Rober Robert Kenyon and Reform uk, the whole slew of questions that have been that we were talking about on the last edition of By Election Cast after my conversation with Mr. Kenyon the other day around his extensive kind of social media posting history and you know what that says about him as a character.
- [03:45]
Adam Fleming
And then towards the end of that section, Andy Burnham then confirms something that basically everyone knew but he'd never actually said before, which is that it, if he wins in Makerfield, he would join a contest to succeed Keir Starmer as Prime Minister.
- [03:59]
Andy Burnham
I'm not somebody who gets ahead of myself. I can't do anything unless I'm lucky enough to get the support of people here. But if I get your support, I would seek to represent you at the highest possible level and give this constituency maximum power and influence. I think Wes Streeting seems to have launched a leadership contest, so if that is running, I would seek to join it, but I'd have to persuade members of the Parliament.
- [04:26]
Adam Fleming
So. Yeah, Chris, there we go.
- [04:28]
Chris Mason
Yeah. So look, how should we tease that apart? I mean, look, you know, Fiona Bruce wasn't in Ashton, in Makerfield, because the. The dart in the Question Time office had just happened at random to hit Ashton rather than Devises or Dundee or Carlisle or Ipswich. Look, clearly, obviously, Andy Burnham has ambitions, but he's been pretty coy, hasn't he, in. In public about those in the last couple of weeks? I think, firstly, grounded in a. In a genuine, I think, respect of putting one foot in front of another and taking one step at a time. In other words, look, it is obvious what his ambitions are, but he's got to persuade people in, make a field first and he doesn't want to either look presumptuous to folk in the constituency or necessarily in the wider Labour Party. But I think what was significant about what you just heard is he perhaps only by a smidgen, given that all of what is obvious anyway, he did go a little bit further. One thing I would emphasize, and certainly his team are emphasizing from that extract that you heard there is he talked about entering a contest which is different from triggering a contest. So lots of people have reflected in the last, not just the last month, the last six or seven months about the labor leadership, which is that in the end, for a Prime Minister to change, somebody has to. Either somebody has to stick their head above the parapet and trigger a formal contest and then a contest begins, or the Prime Minister has to say, I've had enough, and then the act of his resignation itself would trigger a contest. And Andy Burnham's language there was quite carefully chosen around entering a leadership contest, were there to be one, which is distinct from triggering it, which in theory
- [06:34]
Adam Fleming
gives Wes treating some leverage over Andy Barnum. Because if Andy Burnham would be relying on Wes to trigger the cont, then Wes can say, well, okay, what do I get if I do that favor for you? Just theorizing.
- [06:48]
Chris Mason
Exactly. Completely. All of that then becomes a sort of. Yeah, all of that is perfectly reasonable theorizing, I think. Yeah.
- [06:57]
Adam Fleming
And then in terms of reaction to what Andy Burnham has been intending to do, Michael Winstanley, the Conservative Party candidate, said that this by election had been foisted on people in Makerfield because of Andy Burnham's ambitions. And Jake Austin for the Liberal Democrats said this was basically an election for a future Prime Minister via the back door. And that Andy Burnham had been saying the quiet part out loud. Finally. Right. Somebody who was watching it was Obviously a number 10 Downing street, though, Chris, because there was during the program being aired, a statement released basically saying, Starmer's going nowhere.
- [07:29]
Chris Mason
Yeah. So they were definitely watching in Downing street as the program played out on the BBC News channel and on the iplayer, because it went out then at nine o' clock and then it was going out on BBC one after the. After the ten o' clock news. And yeah, unsolicited, or at least I hadn't sought to solicit this response. Maybe others had. We got something at a quarter to 10 that we've heard this before, but it sufficiently goaded the clip we just heard of Andy Burnham had sufficiently goaded number 10 to put out a quote in the name of a number 10 spokesman, talking about what they see as Keir Starmer's achievements, talking about not getting distracted by Westminster debates. I mean, seems like they were Distracted by one tonight. But anyway, won't get too drawn into multitasking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can do more than one thing at once, can't you? And then they say, and this line will seem familiar, the Labour Party has a process for challenging a leader and it has not been triggered. The Prime Minister will not walk away from the mandate he was given just two years ago. And just to cap off that point, I was making a moment or two ago about some of the reflections I've heard in the last six, seven, eight, nine months about the Labour leadership. Is that the alternative to your hypothesis about, you know, where does that leave? Where? Streeting. In a scenario where Andy Burnham wins the by election, if nobody moves, nothing happens. And I'm not saying that that is likely. Who knows? Let's see how the next couple of weeks play out. There's so many different ramifications, but there is a central truth there. If nobody moves, nothing happens. And for all of the heat last month in the immediate aftermath of the elections, and there was a lot of it, nobody moved in the end. Now, West Streeting made an argument that he could have done, but chose not to. Others wondered if he had the numbers, etc. Etc. But there was no formal triggering of a contest. And given what Andy Burnham has said, the specifics of what he said. Yeah, let's see how it. Let's see how these next few weeks shake out.
- [09:26]
Adam Fleming
And because Team Starmer were watching this edition of Question Time so closely, they also will have heard a member of the Question Time audience give this quite withering assessment of Keir Starmer.
- [09:36]
Audience Member
It's close between both of you in the polls and I want you to win. So what, you want Andy Burnham? I do.
- [09:43]
Alex Forsyth
Right.
- [09:44]
Chris Mason
I want. The sooner, the better that Keir Starmer
- [09:47]
Audience Member
walks out of Downing street, the better for me and everybody else. We want him to go. Everybody wants him to go. We can't stand him, actually. But he's not for the people. Just say what you really think. Well, yeah, because he's not for the people. He doesn't listen. That's his downfall.
- [10:05]
Adam Fleming
Yes. So at least one member of the audience who is very, very angry and can't wait to get rid of Keir Starmer. So.
- [10:11]
Chris Mason
And just on that, Adam, just one little observation, because as. As she was making that observation, Robert Kenyon said, but he'll be gone anyway. And I think that's. It's an interesting interjection and it gets to an element of the conversations that the candidates, particularly the principle to reform and Labour are having with voters. Because how, if you are a voter in the maker field constituency, how are you meant to deal with the conundrum if you feel this as a conundrum of how do I vote if I want to see the Prime Minister change? Because it's almost counterintuitive to think I'm not happy with Labour and therefore I'll endorse Labour at the election, even though the pitch of the Labour candidate is vote for me because I want to change. Labour and Reform have just gone through a whole election cycle last month where they were saying, vote for us to get rid of Keir Starmer. And so, in response to a very bluntly put assessment, withering assessment of the actual Prime Minister right now from the audience member we just heard, who had also said, just in an earlier, earlier in that sort of paragraph or whatever out loud, that she was backing Andy Burnham. You had that chipping in for Mr. Kenyon, trying to say, to neutralize that point, to say that you don't effectively, you don't need to vote for him in order to get rid of the Prime Minister. Right.
- [11:30]
Adam Fleming
Then on to Robert Kenyon, the Reform candidate. And he was asked by a member of. Well, it was more of a comment by a member of the audience who said she'd rather have a career politician as the MP than a plumber who is a sexist. And that's a reference to some now deleted tweets that Robert Kenyon had posted many years ago. Some of them, including one that's become quite infamous where. And this is where it comes a little bit, bit convoluted. Somebody had posted a really sexist comment about Carol Vorderman's Anatomy. Somebody else had flagged that on Twitter and called it out. But Robert Kenyon had then replied to that person saying, yeah, along the lines of, yeah, but we're all thinking it. He's just saying what we're thinking. Robert Kenyon refused to apologize for that when he was challenged to by the Green candidate, Sarah Wakefield, who did one of those things that's quite an effective technique in debates, which is to say to the opponent, the look in the camera and apologize, and then if they don't do it, they don't look great in their eyes. That, that was a quite dramatic moment. But Robert Kenyon said. Said what he said before, which is that he'd said some crass things, but they were a long time ago and he wouldn't say them now.
- [12:35]
Chris Mason
Yeah, it was quite something. And in, in saying that she'd spoken to Carol Vorderman and as you said,
- [12:41]
Adam Fleming
yes, because Carol Vorderman had called her up.
- [12:43]
Chris Mason
Yeah, so, so they had, they had spoken. Carol Vorderman is at the heart of one of these, one of the, the number of rows that there's been that have led to this suggestion, sexism against Robert Kenyon, as you say, that invitation to look down the barrel of the camera, which is almost like a invitation to do the thing that Nick Clegg did way back in 2010 in that first set of prime ministerial debates where he tried to sort of address the audience at home rather than the audience in the room by staring down the, the barrel of the camera. But there's a, the broader point here, Adam, that I was reflecting on and, and I may have mentioned this on the last episode, so apologies if I'm repeating myself, but the, the, if we stand back and look in on that question time, you had Andy Burnham, who's been a politician in frontline politics for 30 odd years, and then the other people around the table, the Conservative, has been in local politics for a very long time, but a good number of the others are very new to politics. And then, you know, in the blink of an eye, find themselves on Question
- [13:42]
Adam Fleming
Time and taking questions from this quasi prime ministerial debate.
- [13:47]
Chris Mason
Well, yeah, yeah, no, well, exactly. And you know, they've got Carol Voldemort on the ph, and that's just, it's just quite a thing. And that asymmetry could cut both ways because you could have, there were people there on the panel for whom it would have been a kind of blimey, what am I doing here kind of thing. And yet for Andy Burnham, there would have been a danger if he imagined it was a Question Time, like the many, many others he's appeared on, where he's alongside, broadly speaking, other politicians of similar kind of clout or experience or national profile or whatever of the danger of being, I don't know, patronizing or, or coming across as seeking to stand above others when, you know, they're all contesting the same seat and barely a vote has been cast, et cetera, et cetera.
- [14:32]
Adam Fleming
Although Andy Burnham sort of almost acted like the other candidates weren't there, apart from the Conservative who was right, sat next to him at the desk and also is somebody he's known in local politics for a long time.
- [14:43]
Chris Mason
Yes.
- [14:44]
Adam Fleming
Then in terms of other issues, there was a big conversation about people's reactions to the death of Henry Novak, a subject we discussed quite a lot on newscast this week after the emergence of the police body cam footage. Robert Kenyon was asked about it, and I thought his response here was interesting because it was slightly different from how Nigel Farage had reacted to it in Parliament on Wednesday. Here is Robert Kenyon being asked about that by a member of the Question Time audience.
- [15:09]
Alex Forsyth
I'd just like to ask, in terms of Nigel Farage not condemning the violence that went on the other evening, would Rob Kertu condemn it this evening?
- [15:18]
Audience Member
Okay, let me just briefly allow you to do that. If you want to. Do you. You're being asked, do you want to
- [15:22]
Alex Forsyth
condemn the violence that took place in Southampton?
- [15:24]
Robert Kenyon
100% condemned violence. Violence is not the answer to this. What we need to do is make sure we do it politically. And we, you know, reform policy Is to get 30,000 extra police officers on the streets, you know, and ban knives, regardless of, you know, religious background, that we ban knives completely.
- [15:43]
Adam Fleming
And, Chris, the point of difference I felt there with Farage, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that on Wednesday in Parliament, when Farage was asking his question to Keir Starmer about this about two tier policing, so called, in his view, lots of the MPs around him were saying, condemn the violence that happened in Southampton that some people say was a product of what Farage had said on Tuesday morning, Robert Kenyon actually seemed to be much more explicitly condemnatory of
- [16:09]
Chris Mason
that, without question, and not in a mild mannered way. He said 100%, you know, violence is not the answer. And that he condemned what the scenes that we saw in Southampton the other night. So he maintained an argument that he believed there was, as he put it, two tier policing, but was absolutely unequivocal in condemning that violence. And I think it speaks to a trend that we've seen. And, you know, different voices in Reform will say different things or put it in their own words, et cetera, et cetera. But if you sort of run a trend line through Reform's remarks in the last few days around all of this, in the last 24 hours or so since Prime Minister's questions, I do think there's been an attempt to just dial things down a bit and, you know, rewinding to earlier on Thursday when the Novak family had been to see Cami Badenoch and been to see the Prime Minister Reform statement acknowledged that they'd been in touch with the family, but they hadn't yet had a, had a meeting. And clearly there's been a bit of a backlash from some about reform and Nigel Farage's choice of language and his approach. You know, their argument is that, of course, they're going to get ganged upon in Parliament in particular, because there's hardly any of them versus everyone else. But perhaps out in the country they are speaking to a chunk of the electorate who would say, absolutely right, they're on the right track.
- [17:33]
Adam Fleming
And then Andy Burnham's response to all of that was to talk about the record of Greater Manchester Police because of course he's got some responsibility for that as the Mayor of Greater Manchester.
- [17:40]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I thought this was interesting because there was a, there was a nuance here around Andy Burnham's perspective, grounded in his recent experience. He was full of praise, went out of his way to praise Sir Stephen Watson, who's Manchester's Chief Constable. Talking about him being one of the outstanding police leaders of his generation made me wonder if one day were Andy Burnham to become the Prime Minister, whether we could see Sir Stephen running the Met. But I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here. I wonder if Mark Rowley was watching Question Time. Anyway, and what was interesting about Andy Burnham's pitch here was that when Sir Stephen had been recruited to run Greater Manchester Police, he had made a pitch, the new Chief Constable then, this is going back a few years ago, that he didn't want, for instance, rainbows related to pride, for instance, on police cars. He wanted to be absolutely certain that the accusation of two tier policing could not stick in Greater Manchester. And some were uncomfortable with that because they might reflect on their own experiences with the police and think that that was a viable and sensible thing to do, that sort of leaning into some of those arguments and campaigns. But it was Sir Stevens view that that was a mistake and he pulled back from it. And Andy Burnham said he backed him when he was meeting resistance and that that's how you deal with it. So I think Andy Burnham was attempting to make an argument that said, in his view, it doesn't exist in Greater Manchester, but he could understand why there might be a perception that it, that it exists elsewhere.
- [19:21]
Adam Fleming
And of course, Keir Starmer famously took the knee in his office in Parliament with Angela Rayner.
- [19:26]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And he did say, did, did Keir Starmer yesterday on Wednesday, that he didn't believe there was two tier policing in the uk.
- [19:36]
Adam Fleming
And then for Liberal Democrats, Jake Austin was quite passionate about the eu, but a bit like Andy Burnham, not as passionate as maybe would have sounded before. And his emphasis was on the fact that the Liberal Democrats want to rejoin the Customs Union or have a Customs Union with the EU to boost economic growth as opposed to going all the way back in as A member which maybe they want to do ultimate ultimately much further down the line. But Jack Austin then said that hadn't been coming up on the doorsteps very often. And in fact, rather than kind of big foreign policy things as might challenge a future prime minister, we had more talk about the new houses being built by the Sainsbury's. By the. Which junction was it? They said it was Junction 25.
- [20:17]
Chris Mason
Yeah, it's a massive issue in the Patch. It's a really big issue in the Patch, and it's one of those where there will be a resonance for newscasters perhaps wherever you are listening to us, that that whole societal conundrum about, you know, do we build anywhere near enough homes? The whole question that can be sprung about, you know, why so many more homes are needed and then where do you put them and is the necessary infrastructure attached to them so that, you know, there are school places and doctors place, doctor surgery places and roads and parking and. And all of that. And, yeah, very significant contribution, I think, locally to a lot of the conversations going on. Robert Kenyon for Reform saying it's what got him into politics. Andy Burnham telling a story about some. A new housing development going back a while where there was a flood. There was a flooding of the housing development before anybody had even moved in. So, yeah, it's, you know, and the whole question about brownfield sites versus greenfield sites, et cetera, et cetera, really big talking point locally and a pretty passionate set of exchanges, albeit one requiring a pretty intense knowledge of the geography of those communities to the south of Wigan to entirely follow every twist and turn of it.
- [21:30]
Adam Fleming
And Michael Winstanley for the Tories gave us a very detailed explanation of the formation of the Greater Manchester Spatial Plan, which I was very, very.
- [21:37]
Chris Mason
It's the sort of thing you'd have in a fight in a lever arch file.
- [21:40]
Adam Fleming
No, I decided to go on some mapping software to see where the houses next to Sainsbury's are going to go.
- [21:45]
Chris Mason
I see.
- [21:46]
Adam Fleming
So I only had only had limited time between the end of Question Time at the start of this fair dose. Right, so that is almost it for this little extra mini bile action cast. In a second, what you will hear is me and Chris again, but joined by Alex and Faisal slightly earlier on Thursday evening, where we looked back at some of the big events of the week, some of which we've already alluded to in this little summary of the Question Time special that came from Makerfield. And as is tradition, we're going to end by election cast with a celebrity Reading out all the names of the candidates in that by election and I'm pleased to say today it is five live football commentating legend John Murray.
- [22:24]
John Murray
Hi Adam. And newscasters, it's John Murray and I'm here to read out the 14 candidates standing in the Makerfield by election on Thursday 18 June in alphabetical order. The candidates are Jake Austin, Liberal Democrats Count Bin Face Count Binface Party Andy Burnham, the Labour Party Dan Clark, the Libertarian Party John Dyer, Independent Ed Gemmel, Climate Party Paul Gould, Independent Alan Howlin, Lord Holp, the official monster Raving Loony Party Robert Kenyon, Reform UK Robert Pownall, Independent Rebecca Shepherd, Restore Britain Sarah Wakefield, Green Party Peter Ward, rejoin EU Michael Winn Stanley, the Conservative Party and that same full list of candidates plus loads more information about the Makerfield by election is available on the BBC website.
- [23:29]
Adam Fleming
Cheers, Adam. Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
- [23:38]
Alex Forsyth
and it's Alex in the newscast studio
- [23:39]
Faisal Islam
and it's Faisal in the Newcast studio
- [23:41]
Chris Mason
and it is Chris at Westminster.
- [23:43]
Adam Fleming
Right, lots to discuss this week. I mean the conversation at Westminster is being dominated by, by people's reactions to that body cam footage released by Hampshire police showing the death of Henry Novak. Very powerful bit of video where it looks like the police officers were handcuffing and arresting him as he lay dying and not doing the same to his attacker, who was then convicted of his murder, Vikram Digwa. It feels like the whole country has sort of been watching this video collectively and trying to process it. Chris, how has that translated into the kind of the atmosphere at Westminster? Have people there been sort of as moved and affected by it as kind of everyone everywhere?
- [24:24]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I think it has and on multiple levels, of course, all of the conversation and the significant conversation around policing and where it leaves policing and the questions for policing and then the wider societal questions that spring on from that around attitudes to race in particular. But I think on the most human level, given that for most people in this postcode, I guess like most people, most newscasters, where we're not doing jobs in the way that police officers are and others are, where you might find yourself in that kind of situation, the power of that footage, seeing in real time the last moments of someone's life stops you in your tracks, doesn't it? And then on top of that, everything that has followed around the actions of the police, the conversation that you hear during his arrest and then the question that we've had over the last couple of days, which is how useful, how helpful, how inevitable is it that what we have all collectively seen, will provoke or should provoke anger. And we saw an element of that and the different attitudes to that, if you like, playing out at Prime Minister's questions on Wednesday. And then today, as we record on Thursday, the Novak family seeing two political leaders, seeing Kemi Vadenok of the Conservatives and indeed the Prime Minister. I've just come back from Downing street, where Henry's mum and dad and stepmom went in to see Keir Starmer was in the building for around about an hour this evening. And therefore, if you like, that next step of the conversation, which is how does politics and how do the police and then how does society work out what to take from all of this and what changes as a result?
- [26:18]
Adam Fleming
And, Chris, we're recording this episode about quarter to seven on Thursday evening, and just after half past six on Thursday evening, we got a statement from Downing street about the Prime Minister's reaction to. To that meeting with the Novak family. What can we take from that, other than he was very moved by meeting them and hearing more about Henry's life and particularly he was a big football fan.
- [26:38]
Chris Mason
Yeah. So five or six paragraphs is a written statement from the Prime Minister saying he was profoundly humbled to meet Henry's family, Mark, Lucy and Katie in Downing street, talking about their dignity and their strength in the face of unimaginable pain, as he puts it, reflecting on Henry as a human being, his love of football and the future that he had in front of him. That's the, I guess, the central human reality here, isn't it, given how young he was. And then in terms of those wider questions, the Prime Minister saying there are difficult questions that need to be answered about the way the police handled Henry's murder. The Independent Office for Police Conduct are investigating. We will be unflinching, the Prime Minister says, in taking whatever action is required to right the wrongs in this case. It's our duty now to ensure that lessons are learned, that justice is delivered and that we choose unity and progress over division and hatred, that this is the only way, he says, to honour Henry's memory. So I think in those last two paragraphs, a nod to those wider questions around policing that I was mentioning, and then a nod to the nature of the political conversation in the last 24, 48 hours or so. And I note in the context of the meeting with the Prime Minister and the earlier meeting with Kemi Badenog, that Reform UK have put out a statement acknowledging Henry's death as a tragedy, saying that they have been in contact with members of the family to express their condolences and they hope to meet them soon. So there has not been a meeting, at least as of yet, between the family and Reform uk.
- [28:18]
Alex Forsyth
I think what that body cam footage did was just prompt this really intense debate and what feels like quite a moment, actually, where there are two streams of thought. One is about the police, what the police do, what the police did, how the police go about their business. The separate one has been about the way people respond to a moment like this, when the country in large part probably at this point, has watched that footage. And whatever their reaction, it's going to pale into comparison by what you can only imagine the family felt when they saw that. What we had in the House of Commons during Prime Minister's Questions was a quite strange and unusual kind of moment and tone because it started off with the Prime Minister in his kind of opening remarks, as he often does, addressing this and talking about the Henry Novak case and almost paying tribute to the dignity of the family and calling for a moment of kind of calm leadership on this and not rage. A direct reference to what Nigel Farage had said earlier in the week. You then had Cami Badenoch, the leader of the Opposition, taking quite a similar tone, saying this was sort of a moment to come together, not to divide, although she did also say the police action should be a wake up call for the country. You then had the Liberal Democrat leader, Ed Davy saying something quite similar in tone. This is not a moment for division. All of it quite clearly aimed at the comments that Nigel Farage had made earlier in the week. It then came to Nigel Farage's moment because his name was on the list to ask a question in Prime Minister's
- [29:40]
Adam Fleming
question, which isn't always the case every
- [29:42]
Alex Forsyth
week, isn't always the case, and happened to be the case this week. And he stood up and almost immediately he stood up, the rest of the kind of mood in House of Commons changed. I wasn't in the House of Commons, I was watching this on, on telly, on the Parliamentary telly and other mps immediately were kind of waiting for what he said and he started to talk about the Henry Novak case and he said what Reform UK's position has been, which is they think there is what they call two tier policing in this country, whereby their view is that different groups of people are treated differently according to their race and they don't think that that should be. As he started to speak, the other MPs in the House of Commons kind of really did turn on him. They were Sort of shouting. They were saying, condemn the violence, referring to the protests that had taken place in Southampton. It was such a moment in the Commons. And I think that element of this discussion has now almost come to the fore a little bit about how politicians should respond in a moment like this. And we're seeing more of that continue now with the responses of Kemi Badenach and Keir Starmer.
- [30:40]
Adam Fleming
Let's hear how that sounded. Nigel Franz.
- [30:44]
TikTok Advertiser
Thank you. Mr. Speaker, following the horrendous circumstances of Henry Novak's death, can I urge the Prime Minister to consider this? It is now clear to growing millions in this country that we're living under two tier policing. The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink. It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways. That apart from the upset and the anger at the circumstances of his death, the anger that you saw spilling out in Southampton last night. And which is in danger, condemn the violence, which is in danger of getting considerably worse. Because if the public lose trust, if the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police, can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same?
- [32:08]
Keir Starmer
Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there's two tier policing in this country. I'm really shocked that he pretends to have respect for Henry's family and then acts in this way. They are a grieving thumb.
- [32:27]
Chris Mason
Mr. Blush, please. It's a very important question. I want to hear the Prime Minister. If you want to carry on, go outside, please.
- [32:34]
Keir Starmer
Prime Minister, the grieving family have asked us not to respond in the way that the leader of reform has responded. They've asked us not to. They have lost their son in the most appalling circumstances. They make a simple plea of us as human beings to please not exploit that. That is their plea to us. We all need to reflect on those words of Henry's father. My response and the response of others to be fair, has been focused on the lessons to be learned so we can deliver justice. His response has been to appeal for rage. Rage. That's his response to a father who's lost his son and ask for that not to happen. Exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances. But to do it when the family are expressly saying please don't is unforgivable. It shows exactly who he is.
- [33:45]
Adam Fleming
Chris, were you in the press gallery for that?
- [33:48]
Chris Mason
I was, yeah. And it was quite a moment. I mean, it was quite a moment that Kemi Badenoch pointedly chose that she was not going to ask her questions on this topic, having having said that, in her view, she didn't want to politicise the issue and she was praised publicly by the Prime Minister for that, Sir David, for the Liberal Democrats, similarly. And then there was that sense of anticipation because we knew Nigel Farage had a question of where the conversation might go. A couple of takeaway thoughts I came away with from that, which is one, we shouldn't be surprised on almost any topic, but particularly something as significant as this, that Nigel Farage would find himself in a very small minority in terms of supporters, because there's just very few Reform MPs relative to parliament as a whole. Then there's the knock on question, which is, how does that message go down more widely? Is there a greater proportion of sympathy, if you like, for his point of view beyond Westminster than there is here? And then I think, secondly, I notice in mild terms, reform have since, I think, tried to emphasize an element of toning things down a little. So, for instance, it was pointed out to me by some folk in Reform what a cold rage was, as opposed to its opposite, the suggestion that it pointed to a sense of control rather than its opposite. Now, plenty will seize upon the word rage, but I think there has been at least partly an attempt by Reform in the aftermath of Wednesday afternoon to try and just slightly bring the temperature down a little bit.
- [35:33]
Adam Fleming
And then I'm intrigued in that statement from Downing Street, Alex, where Keir Starmer says Henry deserves a legacy that goes beyond this awful tragedy. And I'm just wondering what, what that might mean.
- [35:44]
Alex Forsyth
Well, I think in terms of any policy or anything that comes out of this, there are kind of two issues. One of them is about knife crime. And that is something that actually Henry Novak's father spoke about when he spoke after the sentencing at court. So the Prime Minister already talks about what they're doing on knife crime, but that's obviously one thing that I don't know. Are we going to see some further policy in that area, who knows? The government's got a pretty ambitious pledge to half life crime. And are they going to reach that? You know, it feels like if they're going to make that the real focus of their response and they're going to have to be sure they can really deliver on it. The second element about this is obviously the police and the Prime Minister himself has says that they said that there are questions to be asked about whether the, the allegation, the wrongful allegation of racism, whether that contributed to the police actions in this case. And we know that there's an investigation going on by the Independent Office of Police Conduct and the police government's take on that is you've got to wait for that to happen and then we'll sort of see what happens beyond that. But that is obviously where quite a lot of the attention is focusing. Nigel Farage, as we've mentioned, that's where he's attention, where he's, he's putting his focus. But also Kemi Badenok has also talked and the Conservatives have talked about how different groups of people shouldn't be treated differently by the police. Kemi Badenoch has suggested that perhaps there's been in her words an over correction in, in relation to some of the concerns there have been about the way that police treat people of different, different races or religions in the past. So again, I think that's going to be another area of focus to see if anything does come out of this. Although it's also worth saying the Prime Minister doesn't think that there is two tier policing in this country, as we
- [37:20]
Adam Fleming
heard in that clip from Prime Minister's Questions. Chris Then one of the other things that Keir Starmer has been talking about today is, well, he's been repeating his dislike for Elon Musk, world's richest man, but not because of his rocket business or what he's doing in America. But the fact that Elon Musk has been posting on social on his social network X a lot about this case and what Elon Musk based in America thinks is happening on the streets of Britain.
- [37:44]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And this is a, this has been a recurring theme, hasn't it, of the Prime Minister's time in Downing street actually, where at relatively regular intervals you've seen the Prime Minister in pretty sort of pungent tone criticizing Elon Musk. In fact, I noticed he just called him Musk. There was no sort of sense of.
- [38:04]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah.
- [38:04]
Adam Fleming
As if he was a defendant in a court case.
- [38:05]
Chris Mason
Yeah, yeah, it was. You know, the tone that the Prime Minister struck was, I am sure, intentional. And that sense, I think from Keir Starmer and we've heard this before, we heard it at the beginning of last year, so January 2025, when there was a big row in the news about grooming gangs and the prospect of an inquiry and a sense that a lot of that row was sort of leapt on and enhanced, if you like, by Elon Musk. And indeed before that, during the and after, in the aftermath of the horrific murders of the children in Southport. So, yeah, the Prime Minister clearly sees it as an irritant, sees it as irresponsible, said it's not who we are in Britain. But, but, but what can he do about it other than plea to his audience, if you like, to people in the UK that this is somehow something that they should sort of seek to ignore if they can. But it's, it's a reality of modern communication, isn't it? And particularly when you have a platform of excess significance owned by a guy who is more than willing to, to get stuck into plenty of British political debates and do it over and over and over again.
- [39:27]
Adam Fleming
Right, Chris, I've got to let you go because you've got some other stuff to do. So see you later on.
- [39:30]
Chris Mason
Cheers, guys.
- [39:31]
Alex Forsyth
Bye, Chris.
- [39:31]
Adam Fleming
Yeah, Alex, sorry to interrupt.
- [39:33]
Alex Forsyth
I also think that this fight, if you want to call that with Elon Musk, is one that Keir Starmer is quite willing to have. I think he, you know, I think he doesn't mind being seen as the man who's prepared to take on the tech billionaire who's pumping out a load of stuff on social media about British politics. I think Keir Starmer quite happy to find himself in that position, even though he might also fundamentally disagree with every. Everything that Elon Musk is saying.
- [39:53]
Adam Fleming
Oh, the Pfizer. We're gonna have to change our description of Elon Musk because billionaire won't cut it fairly soon.
- [39:58]
Alex Forsyth
What's he gonna be?
- [39:59]
Adam Fleming
Trillionaire?
- [39:59]
Faisal Islam
He's about to just. In the next week, his SpaceX company, which rolls in Grok and it rolls in X as well, will be floated for an approximate 1.8 trillion dollar value.
- [40:12]
Adam Fleming
And because he owns a big chunk of the company already, he gets a lot of that.
- [40:16]
Faisal Islam
Yeah, yeah, so. So, I mean, it's still pretty much leaves him where he is just even more entrenched in terms of that wealth. I am struck. I mean it. Although we've got used to it, it is very, very strange for a top US executive to be so engaged, shall we say, in the specifics of UK politics. I've always found it very intriguing how much you get stuck in with the UK and say, not France, no. Countries with similarish political kind of positioning in terms of the governments sort of set. You know, you could argue Macron's maybe a little bit more to the right than Gear Starmer, you have a discussion about that. But similar attitudes to multicultural society, you might say.
- [41:05]
Adam Fleming
And you.
- [41:06]
Faisal Islam
He just says very little about Emmanuel
- [41:07]
Adam Fleming
Macron and Yet is it just a bit because we're an English speaking country?
- [41:13]
Faisal Islam
Well, he's obviously, I mean, it's, it's, it's said that he obviously feels very kind of, you know, he, he, he is, was an Anglophile, I think his ex, you know, he wanted to build some factories in the uk.
- [41:25]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. Because when you read that Walter Isaacson biography of him that came out a little while ago, there's like, he's has been in Britain a lot. Just we haven't seen it.
- [41:33]
Faisal Islam
Yeah, but, but he's, you know, he's clearly got more involved than just commentary on individual events that we've seen on two or three occasions. Although interestingly, the volume went down when he was formally engaged with the Trump administration at Doge, which is quite interesting that, you know, raised the question, was he asked to sort of just chill out on this because Trump and Starmore getting on very well at that point
- [41:59]
Adam Fleming
or just too busy not saving any money?
- [42:01]
Faisal Islam
Who knows? But, but there is some signal value in the things that he is getting involved in, the things he's not getting involved in. It is said by people I've heard who are connected in France, for example, that you stand up to him, you stand up to him and he respects strength and maybe that is the strategy that we're seeing from the Prime Minister. Obviously he's not hugely. I don't know what the latest polls are. The last polls I saw were that he didn't have a huge. So he said he didn't have a huge following in the UK in terms of the polls. He's not thought of.
- [42:34]
Adam Fleming
Oh, the average British person does not like him and wants him to buy out.
- [42:38]
Faisal Islam
So, you know, they may think that they're sort of soaring with the grain of the wood, the, the government here, but it is, it is, it is deeply, is deeply unusual for somebody for the world's richest man to be so engaged and then engaged, remember, to the point of, even with reform, he's got, he's had a difficult, you know, Nigel Farage has had a difficult time with
- [42:57]
Adam Fleming
Elon Musk because they were mates and
- [42:58]
Faisal Islam
then they weren't and they fell out. And now he sort of hugely backs the Restore Party, which is trying to get reforms, vote share. So, you know, and then I, I raised, I've raised this with people like Rishi Sunak and others when I've interviewed them. Like, I've raised it with Jensen Huang, which is like. Got any advice?
- [43:18]
Adam Fleming
The boss of Nvidia.
- [43:20]
Faisal Islam
Yeah, yeah, Big tech company. How do you deal with this, how do you deal with this in government? There were actually. We're going to come on to this. There were some actual suggestions in the, in the Mandelson files about, about this. It's clearly a significant headache. In another world, they would have loved to be inviting him to like tech investment conferences, which Rishi Sunak did.
- [43:41]
Adam Fleming
They had a fireside chat.
- [43:42]
Faisal Islam
He did. And indeed he. Yeah, he, he did. And when I asked Richie soon act, you know, what would you say to try and like bridge any difference here? He just ran a mile away from the question. Didn't really want to go there at all. But yeah, I mean, it is curious. It continues. It's dozens of, dozens of tweets and
- [44:01]
Adam Fleming
one of them says send the video to everyone, you know, showing how heinously Novak was treated by the police in his dying mom and how the police cravenly kowtowed to his murderer legacy. Mainstream media, same ones who wrote about George Floyd. Millions of times are dead silent about Novak.
- [44:16]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah, I mean he's been, I haven't counted them all, but the FT did a little tot up of all of these tweets and they say there's been 110 in the past few days. So he's prolific when he decides he's get stuck into something and he's been tweeting incessantly about this.
- [44:28]
Faisal Islam
And I'd say it isn't just a personality thing. You know, there is no doubt and there is a subtle reference to this, I think in the national security strategy from last year. They're quite shocked at a national security level that influential and very wealthy people from our key ally actively, you know, they're always gonna have a political view. Right. But seem to specifically undermine an elected government. That's the way it's seen. It's really quite interesting and I think you're starting to see a more muscular response to that and one that I guess they perceive is popular with the electorate.
- [45:03]
Adam Fleming
And also, Alex, we should just say that in Westminster everybody is on X all the time. It's like the Westminster Intranet, isn't it? Like people just keep looking at it and so it has an outsized effect on kind of like the Westminster brain.
- [45:16]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah. Although I do wonder that people maybe take it with a bit more of a pinch of salt now than they did say a few years ago when I think X was just had maybe a little bit more traction in Westminster. But yeah, everybody's still on it and everybody's still looking at it. But I think most people now do so with the Knowledge that it still isn't the real world. However, something that gets a lot of pickup on X. And when Elon Musk. Musk. X's clearly it does because he's the boss of it, right? Then, clearly, then they're going to be paying attention to it. It's not the kind of thing that anybody's going to ignore, but like I say, I don't. Obviously, Keir Starmer will fundamentally disagree with what Elon Musk is posting about this case. In this instance, I don't think he minds being seen to stand up to Elon Musk.
- [45:52]
Adam Fleming
Now, Faisal, you very aptly previewed what we're going to do next, which is the latest saga in the fallout from Peter Mandelson being fired as the ambassador in Washington. So we had the humble address in Parliament where the Conservatives, and then actually a load of actual Labour MPs as well, compelled the government to publish all their WhatsApps and emails. And it turns out, even like Zoom teams Google hangout meeting requests related to Peter Mandelson. We got the first law a few months ago. We got the latest law at the start of the week and we did an episode of Newscast on Monday where we went through it in quite a lot of detail. But there's been a further twist today on Thursday. Alex.
- [46:28]
Alex Forsyth
Yeah. And the twist is not what was in that big data dump, it's what wasn't in that big data dump. And this is some messages that didn't appear in those documents, but have subsequently been leaked to the Spectator. And these are messages from Darren Jones to Peter Madison. Darren Jones, obviously a really key figure in Downing Street. He's the Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister. And these messages, basically a couple of things. So at the point of Peter Mandelson losing his job, Darren Jones texts him and effectively says, I'm so sorry. You were doing a great job there, mate. And then there's some other messages, which I'm pretty sure Darren Jones didn't necessarily want to be made public because he's not overly complimentary about some of his CA Cabinet colleagues, including the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, talking about the idea of her getting the economy moving and just basically casting some aspersions on her ability to do that. So these have all come out via a leak. Now, Darren Jones has said the reason they weren't in the original data dump was because he'd put on that disappearing WhatsApp message function. You know, when you can put the little swirly thing on your messages, drop off your WhatsApp after 24 hours or a week or whatever you set it
- [47:26]
Adam Fleming
to, so you can never remember where you've agreed to meet your mates ever again.
- [47:30]
Alex Forsyth
But, yeah, and I keep forgetting to turn on my disappearing WhatsApp. But now I might, given that apparently most of the government has their disappearing whatsapps turned on.
- [47:36]
Adam Fleming
Peter Mandelson, we learned from the introduction to the latest document dump, was asked to provide his messages from his personal phone and via his solicitors. They said no. Yeah, no, we understand. That's because their argument was, well, there's a criminal investigation into him and so it would not be appropriate to hand over messages to a third party, the government, while that's happening.
- [47:58]
Chris Mason
But.
- [47:59]
Adam Fleming
But, yeah, so we've. We're in a world where Peter Mandelson's messages are not available, apart from if you read the Spectator.
- [48:06]
Faisal Islam
Yeah, it's just like a giant fish trawler there, wasn't it? I don't know what the Labour mps that voted for this. I don't think this is what they expected to. To. To be. There seems to be very little about Epstein and quite a lot about.
- [48:17]
Alex Forsyth
Well, and also stuff wasn't in there about, you know, the actual appointment of. Of Peter Mandelson to the vetting document, for example, because it had been redacted because of the ongoing police investigation. So some of that kind of stuff. Stuff wasn't in there. But we just got a lot of this kind of strange interaction between Peter Manderson and certain Cabinet ministers who haven't had their disappearing whatsapps on.
- [48:37]
Adam Fleming
I wonder if history will judge that the humble address process, while audacious, has not quite worked in the way.
- [48:44]
Alex Forsyth
Well, and also a million quid.
- [48:45]
Adam Fleming
Yeah. Although maybe it did work in the way its authors intended in that it caused the Government a lot of hassle. And that's what opposition is about, is like making life difficult for the government. Because if you think about it, the big revelations from the Mandelson saga were the reports initially in Bloomberg about his relationship with Epstein lasting longer and being deeper than anyone had ever imagined. And things like the Birthday book and then the Scoop and the Guardian about whether the Foreign Office had told the Prime Minister about his vetting, which led to Ollie Robbins, the senior civil servant, being fired. That's the two revelations that have driven this whole story. A lot of the stuff that's come from the Humble address process is gossip and sort of some of it nibbles around.
- [49:29]
Faisal Islam
There were some quite interesting little.
- [49:31]
TikTok Advertiser
Little nuggets.
- [49:31]
Adam Fleming
Oh, yeah, you were saying there was some nuggets in there. That you'd spotted from, from on your beat.
- [49:35]
Faisal Islam
Definitely some insights into how the trade deal sausage is made. Right. All of like which companies matter in these sorts of negotiations. Peter Manilson was at the center of that and indeed I think, think if you're going to see that there were messages from cabinet ministers. They felt that he, he got them out of jail with that deal. The first deal with, with the Trump administration. But there's mentioning little nuggets too like amid like what was referred to as totally surreal Elon Musk attacks on the government. The first set, I think in December, no, in January of last year.
- [50:09]
Alex Forsyth
It's about the grooming gangs issue.
- [50:11]
Faisal Islam
That was about the group story. I, I forget which, which ones they were. The then number 10 director of comms forwarded an offer or a suggestion that a potential middleman to sort out this problem between Musk and the UK government could be none other than James Murdoch. James Murdoch who obviously son of Rupert Murdoch who happens to be on the board of Tesla and was one of the original investors in SpaceX. This is quite interesting to sort of see how those. I don't think anything came of that but like that shows that they were trying to look for back channels or somebody in number 10 thought well this is a possible back channel. It was forwarded to Peter Mandelson. I also, there was a, there was an involved reference where Peter Mandelson is users of advisor by a senior number 10 official trying to work out which economic advisor should be appointed to Keir Starmer. Remember this causes controversy and also should
- [51:03]
Adam Fleming
there be two, like an old wise one and a young cool one?
- [51:06]
Faisal Islam
Would it undermine Rachel Reeves, all this sort of stuff. Stuff and there's just a little phrase about this economist needed to be sort of clever enough to be able to quietly second guess the obr, which is interesting because the OBR is meant to be sacrosanct and you know, does all this forecasting and analysis of the economy. But it shows that certainly Mendelssohn's eyes, the sort of advisor on economics that the Prime Minister should have, should be able to just work out where the OBR is going. Be suggestive of some that it's been problematic for the government over the past 15 months.
- [51:39]
Alex Forsyth
I mean I think that's what we got from this whole data dump. Right? Yeah, you're right. The key moments in the Mandelson saga didn't come from all of the documents that have been released, but what they have done. And whenever you get this kind of level of information released from the Government, which you don't get very often. It shows the inner workings, it shows who's pulling the levers, who's the power brokers, how they communicate with each other. It lifts the lid on the behind the scenes of government in a way that we don't always get to see. And let's be blunt, it's not always very complimentary.
- [52:05]
Adam Fleming
And we also learned that Keir Starmer whatsapps in the same way that he talks, sticking to the script.
- [52:12]
Faisal Islam
Is it a situation? I remember there was this theory, wasn't there, that Peter Mandelson had outsized influencers being seen in Downing street and was, you know, in some way hugely influential,
- [52:22]
Alex Forsyth
even involved in the reshuffle, which was then later denied.
- [52:24]
Faisal Islam
But yeah, but when you look at those whatsapps as a close watch for these things, is that, does it feed that message?
- [52:31]
Adam Fleming
I came away from it because I read it all in one go on my laptop at home. So of course I'd massively square three volumes.
- [52:36]
Faisal Islam
Three volumes.
- [52:37]
Adam Fleming
I mean, a lot of it is also like very long lists of CCs at the tops of emails. So when you say it's 1500 pages, it's not like three volumes of Proust. There's lots of like, stuff you can scan through quite quickly. And I came away from it feeling that he seemed like a bit of a peripheral figure. And there was lots of emails, people just sort of politely batting off his observations about things, but they're like a. Yeah, yeah, I'll get around to reading your email later.
- [53:00]
Alex Forsyth
Maybe he was, Yeah, I think you're probably not wrong. I mean, he clearly had quite a lot of communications with very key figures in and around government. But how much of that was him wanting to, you know, kind of exert and exercise some influence?
- [53:11]
Faisal Islam
Fascinating. There was, there was a conversation with West Streeting about Israel, Gaza, which was like, oh, that's interesting. There was a conversation
- [53:20]
Adam Fleming
having a midlife crisis.
- [53:22]
Faisal Islam
Well, exactly. I mean, we really, I mean, this is the, the, we're getting the soap opera here. But more substantively, this is a bit of nerdier, but in terms of the central economic offer of the government, which was how close were you trying to get, get to Donald Trump's America and were you willing to sacrifice your relationships with Europe? You can see that playing out in the text messages in his chats with a guy called Michael Ellum. It's very, I, I've, I, I found it shed new light.
- [53:46]
Adam Fleming
Dull, not dull. So that is it for our combination by election cast and newscast. Looking back at the big events of the week, or in fact, just the big events of Thursday nights. We've got a real treat coming for you on Friday, a three part miniseries made in association with some of the BBC's other big podcasts looking at the issues around the World Cup. Not about the actual sport, but the politics, the conflict, the relationships and the money. We recorded it on Thursday. John Murray from Football Daily was on hand as our football expert. I've actually learned quite a lot about it and I'm now even more hyped for the news from the World cup up. So those newscasts coming your way very soon. Bye bye.
- [54:31]
Alex Forsyth
Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [54:34]
Newscast Outro Announcer
From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime at newscast@BBC.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on +4403301239480. Be assured, I promise you listen to everyone.
- [55:20]
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- [55:48]
Alex Forsyth
Com.