Andy Burnham Wants to Stand, Will Labour Let Him?

Summary

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Newscast: "Andy Burnham Wants to Stand, Will Labour Let Him?"

BBC News – January 24, 2026
Hosts: Chris Mason, Laura Kuenssberg
Guest: Gemma Bolton (Labour NEC Member)
Main Theme:
Examining Andy Burnham's bid to stand in the forthcoming Gorton & Denton by-election, the political stakes for Labour leader Keir Starmer, and implications for party unity and future leadership.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the surprise move by Andy Burnham, Greater Manchester Mayor, to seek the Labour candidacy for the Gorton & Denton by-election—a step with high political risk and the potential to reshuffle Labour's leadership future. Chris Mason and Laura Kuenssberg analyze the Labour Party's internal dynamics, plausible outcomes for Burnham, and the broader turbulence facing Keir Starmer. They also speak with Labour NEC member Gemma Bolton for an insider's perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Andy Burnham’s Ambition and the By-election Opportunity

• Background: Andy Burnham, long rumored to have leadership ambitions, seizes upon the resignation of Andrew Gwynne (current MP) to request permission from Labour’s National Executive Committee (NEC) to stand in the Gorton & Denton by-election.
• Procedural Quirk: As an incumbent metro mayor, Burnham uniquely requires NEC approval to run for Parliament—setting up a major internal test for the Labour Party.
  • "He has to get permission from the very powerful ruling body of the Labour Party. And that therefore puts the massive dilemma on Keir Starmer's doorstep." (Chris Mason, 03:57)

2. The Dilemma for Keir Starmer and Labour Leadership

• Double-edged Decision:
  • Allowing Burnham to stand gives an ambitious rival a platform but blocking him risks accusations of paranoia and party disarray.
    • "If he doesn't allow him to run...then it looks paranoid, petty, scared of a challenge from Burnham." (Chris Mason, 04:39)
  • Starmer’s allies note the cost and disruption of a mayoral election if Burnham vacates his role.
• Burnham’s Framing: Burnham’s letter frames the by-election as a fight against “poison” in politics and suggests he’s best placed to fend off Reform, a rising right-wing challenger.
  • "There’s a brand of politics which seeks to pit people against each other. It brings with it a poison we should not let enter our city region." (Burnham, quoted by Laura Kuenssberg, 06:00)
  • He assures he would "support the work of the government, not undermine it," a claim met with skepticism by the hosts.

3. Party Management and NEC Decision-Making Process

• Inner Core Decision: A small group of NEC officers—predominantly Starmer loyalists—will decide Burnham’s fate, not the full NEC.
  • "...they have tried to take all decisions back behind closed doors into the NEC officers group, which is a small group and it is of overwhelmingly supporters of the current leadership." (Gemma Bolton, 25:07)

4. Divergences within Labour:

• Notable Backers: High-profile Labour figures including Lucy Powell, Sadiq Khan, and Angela Rayner publicly express support for Burnham's right to run, putting further pressure on Starmer.
  • "Her saying that openly today definitively made it harder for the party machine to try and block Andy Burnham." (Chris Mason, 11:11)
• Party Disunity Laid Bare: NEC member Gemma Bolton calls Starmer’s leadership “abominable,” underscoring widespread internal dissatisfaction.
  • "I think that Keir Starmer has been a pretty abominable leader of the party, unfortunately." (Gemma Bolton, 27:26)

5. Possible Blocking Mechanisms & Shortlist Politics

• All-Women Shortlist: Labour could potentially claim a previously decided all-women shortlist for Gorton & Denton, legally barring Burnham’s candidacy.
  • "Labour Party HQ could say, ‘Wow, this must be an all women shortlist’...they could give that as a reason for blocking him." (Chris Mason, 14:49)
• Pros and Cons:
  • Blocking: Maintains leadership control, avoids headline risk, but fuels the narrative of party infighting and potential martyrdom for Burnham.
  • Allowing: Shows party openness but invites an ambitious rival into Parliament.

6. The Political and Electoral Stakes

• Local and National Risks: If Burnham vacates the mayoralty and then loses the by-election (especially to Reform), both his career and Labour’s prestige in Manchester suffer.
• Potential Big Names in By-election: Speculation about other candidates, like Green Party’s Zack Polanski or a senior member from Reform, heightens the uncertainty.
• Broader Party Implications: The contest is framed as a test of Labour’s internal democracy and its adaptability in a volatile, multi-party political scene.

7. The Martyrdom Scenario

• Burnham’s “Blocked” Persona: If prevented from standing, Burnham could gain sympathy and long-term political capital as the thwarted “Blocked Burnham,” potentially haunting Starmer’s leadership.
  • "You’ve got the soubriquet of blocked Burnham...he could become the vessel into which people’s forlorn hopes of a new, softer left Labour are poured into forevermore." (Chris Mason, 21:45)

8. Leadership Dynamics and Fissures

• Parallel to Previous Labour Divides: The episode compares Burnham's contestation to previous rivalries, notably the Miliband brothers.
• Growing Cabinet Defiance?: As more senior Labour figures advocate for Burnham, Starmer risks public intra-party opposition.

9. Where Will the NEC Land?

• Hosts Take Sides: Laura predicts Burnham will not be blocked, Chris is convinced he will.
  • "I feel that he won’t be blocked...you can look like you support a plurality of views." (Laura Kuenssberg, 24:11)
  • "Just for fun, I’m gonna say the opposite...they want to stay in power. So why...invite the fox into the hen house?" (Chris Mason, 24:28)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Burnham’s Motivations:
  • "Does anybody really think he’s doing this because he cares about the good people of Gorton and Denton...?" (Labour source, relayed by Chris Mason, 05:29)
• On Labour's Situation:
  • "This is a proxy for deep unhappiness in the governing party." (Chris Mason, 13:11)
• On Process vs Politics:
  • "The Labour Party likes nothing more than to create a process to fight and argue about." (Chris Mason, 12:34)
• Gemma Bolton (NEC) blunt assessment:
  • "They have tried to take all decisions back behind closed doors into the NEC officers group...overwhelmingly supporters of the current leadership." (25:07)
  • "If they block him, it will be seen as a huge act of weakness." (25:29)
  • "Keir Starmer has been a pretty abominable leader of the party, unfortunately." (27:26)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:49] – Laura reads Andy Burnham’s letter to the NEC.
• [03:51] – Explanation of why Burnham must be specially approved as a candidate.
• [05:17] – Political implications for Starmer if Burnham stands (or is blocked).
• [06:00] – Burnham’s warning about "poison" in politics.
• [10:17] – Lucy Powell’s statement on Labour teamwork.
• [12:34] – Insight on Labour’s tendency for messy, high-stakes process.
• [14:49] – Discussion of potential all-women shortlist obstacle.
• [21:34] – The "Blocked Burnham" scenario and its long-term implications.
• [25:07] – Gemma Bolton on control within the NEC.
• [27:26] – Bolton’s "abominable" verdict on Starmer’s leadership.
• [29:56] – Hosts reflect on the strength of discontent within Labour’s elite.

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Tone & Style

• Conversational and Analytical: The episode balances witty banter, plainspoken assessments of party politics, and lightly exasperated commentary on Labour's procedural intricacies.
• Candid and Informed: Regular use of inside gossip, direct quotations from key players, and reflection on historical echoes in Labour’s trajectory.
• Engaged & Speculative: Hosts openly take opposite bets on the outcome, model the reasoning of all stakeholders, and underscore the stakes for both principles and personalities.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode captures a moment of high drama in UK politics as Andy Burnham, “the king of the north,” pushes to re-enter Westminster just as Labour faces falling public support and infighting. The NEC’s looming decision is a proxy for deeper party malaise—potentially shaping not only Labour’s immediate future but the broader contest between ambition, loyalty, leadership, and party democracy.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary delivers the full sweep of analysis, controversies, insider perspectives, and the colourful personalities at the heart of Labour’s unfolding saga.

Transcript

[Laura Kuenssberg]

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[Chris Mason]

BBC Sounds music, radio Podcasts. Sorry, Patti, it's been one of those days when I've been staring at my phone and messaging and texting lots of people.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I'm just reading the letter.

[Chris Mason]

What letter?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

From Andy Burnham.

[Chris Mason]

To whom?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

The chair of the nec, the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party. I write to seek the permission of the NEC to enter the process for the selection of Labour's candidate for the forthcoming Gordon and Denton by election.

[Chris Mason]

Goodness me. Now that doesn't sound very interesting. But it is incredibly interesting. And it is a letter and a decision that requires another decision that could change the face of our politics.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And he could lose.

[Chris Mason]

Lots of people could lose. And we'll be discussing all of that on this Saturday's newscast, newscast, newscast from the BBC Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Gemma Bolton]

I was the tattletale in the classroom.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that Daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

[Chris Mason]

Next time in mosque. I feel delulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downing Street.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Let's go have a tour. Blimey. Hello, it's Paddy in the studio and.

[Chris Mason]

It'S Laura in the studio and it's.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Shenanigans in Manchester and Westminster.

[Chris Mason]

Shenanigans, My goodness, shenanigans is one word. So what has actually happened in the last few hours is that Andy Burnham, who we know because he's never been shy about it, one day fancies having a tilt another deal at Labour's top job. Keir Starmer's been in trouble. He's very unpopular. So many people in the Labour Party look to Andy Barnum as potentially the solution. The blockage to that has been that, well, he's not an mp, he's the mayor of Greater Manchester. He doesn't have a perch in Westminster, so he's been unable to challenge Keir Starmer even if he was ready to go for it. But the standing down of another colleague, Andrew Gwynn, allowed a vacancy to miraculously emerge. And at exactly 5:00 clock on the button, Andy Barnum confirmed what most people suspected was coming. He is going to want to stand in that by election with which could clear a route for him to take on Keir Starmer.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And the letter that he has posted, which I've got in my hand, says, dear Chair of the National Executive Committee, I write to seek the permission of the NEC to enter the process. So they can say no.

[Chris Mason]

They can say no. So by the process of this, because Andy. Sorry. Ooh, this is interesting. Sorry. Because Andy Burnham is the mayor of Greater Manchester, which is a big, important, influential job where he's been making decisions that genuinely affect the lives of many people who live in the northwest of England, he has to ask the NEC if he's allowed to stand. So it's not like any other labor activist or any other labor person who thinks, oh, I want to put my name forward for a by election, he has to get permission from the very powerful ruling body of the Labour Party. And that therefore puts the massive dilemma on Keir Starmer's doorstep. Because if he allows Andy Barnum to run, he of course hopes that he would win the by election, which also isn't certain, then he would have sitting behind him on the Green benches in Parliament, someone who's made no secret of the fact that he wants his job. If he doesn't allow him to run and gets his cronies, as his critics might call him, on the National Executive Committee to block Andy Barnum. Well, then it looks paranoid, petty, scared of a challenge from Barnum. And as one MP wrote even before this announcement this afternoon, it would make the Labor Party look like they were trying to block one of the most popular and well known figures in the party at a time when they're in desperate strays. However, Karma's allies would say, well, look, it's strong to block Andy Barnum because a by election is going to cost enough money anyway. Having to have a mayoral election in Greater Manchester would cost millions of pounds, would be very disruptive. And as one of them coyly put it to me a few minutes ago, does anybody really think he's doing this because he cares about the good people of Gorton and Denton, the constituency he's got his eye on?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, that's a very good example of the briefing that's been going on. And in fact, there's a word in here he's used the word poison. Have you seen that?

[Chris Mason]

Well, I've been scanning through it. So where's that bit then? Where's that bit?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So there's a brand of politics which seeks to pit people against each other. It brings with it a poison we should not let enter our city region. I see this by election as the front line of that fight for the Manchester way.

[Chris Mason]

I think he's talking about reform there. So he's essentially saying Reform are going to try and win that by election. Reform's going to try and get a foothold in Parliament through a seat in Greater Manchester. And he, Andy Barnum sees himself as the person best placed to fight that off. Now, Reform was second actually in the general election in that constituency, but they were quite some way behind. It was not one of those seats where Reform was just, you know, a whisker off. However, fast forward a year and a half, Reform have been way ahead in the polls for a long time, so of course they will fancy themselves as strong contenders in that seat.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, you, I get it. You're right. He says I would be there in returning to support the work of the government, not undermine it. And I have passed on this assurance to the Prime Minister. So there has been a conversation between Manchester and Westminster, between Andy Burnham and K. Starmer, and he's implying that it's all fine and dandy if he gets there, because just going, I'm just going to be helping the government along in the best way I can to help Labor. And actually what he's not saying in the letter is I could be there to take the per job.

[Chris Mason]

Well, yes. I mean, the problem is, even though he's saying my role in returning would be to use my experience to help it go further and faster, which is of course a sanctioned Team Starmer phrase. How many times have we heard Rachel Reeves, for example, and others say further and faster? The fact that he says I'd be there to support the government, not undermine it. Does Andy Barnum want the Labor Party to prosper? Yes, but yes. Also, is Andy Barnum deeply attracted to the idea of leading the Labor Party? Yes, that too. And there will be people, I'm afraid, in all sorts of perches in the Labour Party who just actually do not believe what he is saying in that.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Because you shouldn't have to point it out, should he? It's like if it's all mates together, you don't say, I am not going to undermine you. So there's something. But let's. If we turn to the nec.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

How many people on the NEC have a say in this decision? And has the number of people changed from a normal NEC decision on a Monday?

[Chris Mason]

Yes. And what's going to happen? I think later tonight, but possibly not until tomorrow, because this is all happening quite late in the day. On Saturday, a small group of officers of the nec, people like Lucy Powell, the deputy leader, are going to make this decision. This is not going to be a decision that's going to be made by the whole nec, which has a few dozen of it, lots of union representatives, people from different bits and bit different parts of the Labour Party. So this will be the sort of inner core of the National Executive Committee and the crucial thing there is, you know, until quite recently, I think it would have been fair to say, well, Keir Starmer pretty much controls the nec. You know, it was his first job as opposition. The opposition leader get control of the mechanics of the party. He did that quite successfully in the first year of his leadership. He got the NEC and then built on from there. However, Labour's had such a hard time in the last 18 months. There is a bit of a question mark about whether or not all of those people sitting on the NEC and, and even the, the small inner group, whether they really are a cohort that Keir Starmer can safely rely on now. There's no question. You know, a senior figure in the party once said to me, Morgan McSweeney, the powerful chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, although probably less powerful than he was, he said he'd rather burn Downing street down than ever let Andy run. But it could backfire. You know, the kind of. What kind of a look is it for number 10 if they look so itchy and so kind of thin skinned that they can't even allow somebody to come and be an mp? Flip side, of course, of that is maybe they'd be nuts to let him in because they know he's got eyes on K Summer's job. So it's really difficult for them as well.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

The deputy party leader is Lucy Powell and she spoke before the release of Andy Burnham's letter.

[Lucy Powell]

I will want to know that we are putting forward the best candidate that we can, that we are putting forward a real choice to local members. But I also, as deputy, want to make sure that we're working as one team in service of making this Labour government, led by Keir Starmer, be successful and that we win elections and that we change the country in the way.

[Chris Mason]

That we said we would.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, it's fascinating, isn't it, because he sacked her, Keir stacked Pierre Summers stacked her. She then got the job that Angela had, but Angela had to leave because of council tax gate and he wasn't really wanting Lucy Powell to be the deputy leader. So does that mean that Lucy Powell automatically wants Andy Burnham?

[Chris Mason]

Well, I think, look, Lucy Powell, as a powerful woman in her own right in the Labour Party, I think, has been unfairly characterized as being some sort of handmaiden of Andy Barnum. You know, she was a cabinet minister, she was a shadow minister for a long time. She's got her own mandate as deputy leader of the Labour Party. So to sort of suggest that, oh, yeah, she's just sort of some, like Andy Burnham cheerleader, I think, is a load of old guff. And people probably wouldn't say about a male politician, frankly, let's just put that on the record there. However, her saying that openly today definitively made it harder for the party machine to try and block Andy Barnum. And it made it harder for him not to run, I think, not least because also Sadiq Khan said the same, Angela Rayner said the same. So through Saturday, while we were all doing this sort of Willy won't he kind of thing, which he was probably quite enjoying the attention most politicians would, you had a succession of senior labor figures going out into the public domain and essentially saying, hey, well, yeah, sure he should run and sure Keir Starmer shouldn't block him. So if the NEC does block him and Keir Starmer is seen to be trying to block him, he's not just in opposition to Andy Burnham, he's. He's also putting himself into opposition to some other senior members of the party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So it's interesting he's also given a clue about his own choreography here.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Because the letter says he won't be making any other public comment until it is concluded that the internal process is concluded beyond the release of this letter. And conclusion must mean a decision by the smaller group of the NEC.

[Chris Mason]

Correct. And as we're recording at nearly 5:30 on Saturday, it's my understanding that it's possible the decision will be made tonight, but not inevitable. So this may spill into tomorrow, but it has to be done by midnight tomorrow night. That is the deadline. But there's nothing that the Labour Party likes more than to create a process that they can all then fight and argue about. And I have to say, from a normal newscaster's point of view, yes, it might be all good political sport, but it's also looks very, very messy and there's the potential of it for it to go wrong in all sorts of different directions and boil up more bad blood. I suppose that's really the point here. This just will punch the bruise of uncertainty over Labour's leadership. If K Summer was a popular Prime Minister, if his part, if his position in the party was truly secure, this wouldn't be a big deal at all. But it is a huge deal for the Labour Party because the Prime Minister's position is not secure and because the government, even though they have that whopping majority, is not popular in the country. And that's what this is really all about. Yeah, sure. They're going to put the personal injury between all. Kieran, Andy. They've never really got on. Oh, Andy's run for the leadership loads of times and he can't resist the temptation to get back into Parliament. Sure, that's all kind of good fun if you're that way inclined, but really this is a proxy for deep unhappiness in the governing party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

What would be the arguments for blocking him or for stopping him by process? Is there a face or a name, is there a public face or a public name on people who don't want him to run? What do they say? And also I was asking Nick Watt on Newsnight on Thursday.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Isn't it also true that as a result of decisions of conscience made previously, when we didn't know that Andy Burnham would stand in Gorton and Denton, there was a desire by membership to see perhaps an all women shortlist?

[Chris Mason]

That's Something Labour's done lots of times.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So, I mean, I don't think Andy Burnham currently is a woman. So is it possible that there could be a sort of prior standing agreement in Gorton and Denton that we don't know about, which could be cited as a reason why he can't run?

[Chris Mason]

Yes. I mean, Labour Party HQ could say, wow, this must be an all women shortlist that they could try and find a get out and they could give that as a reason for blocking him. And I mean, there absolutely are good reasons for blocking him and then there are good reasons not to block him. So if you are Keir Starmer and Keir Starmer's allies and team, the reasons for blocking him are this. Why on earth would you want to invite someone who has got the eyes on your job into the place where they'd be able to kick you out of your own or have a go at doing it? Why would you invite the fox into the hen house? You know, that's a. Oh, I was just thinking, why do we have Piers Morgan on the show on Sunday mornings? Because it's fun. But you know, why, when earth would you bring someone into Westminster who's got the potential to destabilize you? Right. The flip side is, why wouldn't you want someone who is a popular politician in their region to come and be part of the team in, in Westminster? And because if you do block him, you might just boil up more bad blood and it just all looks even, even, even messy. So either way there's a risk, but either way, also there's a reward.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So it's quite a Game of Thrones saga, isn't it?

[Chris Mason]

Hugely.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And the thing is that politics is made up of rivals who come together.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. A team of rivals.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So, I mean, the thing is, if Keir Starmer keeps Andy Burnham out of Westminster by using processes as yet unannounced and unknown at the nec.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Then he can't stop all rivals being rivals who are already there anyway.

[Chris Mason]

Well, no, that's absolutely right. So whether that's Wes Streeting or whether it's Angela Rayner or anyone else who one day might fancy a pop at the job. But this is why politics is so much always influenced by events beyond anyone's control and timing. So if we were talking about this a few weeks ago, as we were at that stage in the game, it looked like the leadership was probably going to be. We're streeting as the most likely rival to Keir Starmer. There were people urging him to go for it sooner rather than later, before the May local elections. Now, suddenly this opportunity emerges for Andy Burnham. Opportunity knocks. It's very risky for him to go for it too. What happens if he goes for it? And Reform have a blinding campaign in the by election and actually win the seat, humiliating the King of the north, by which point he's had to give up his mayoralty in Greater Manchester. Now, if you look at the polling. Well, I mean, you know, who knows? That looks unlikely, looking at the last general election result. But nothing, as we know, is impossible these days in politics. There's also a risk. Lots of people in the Labour Party are going to look at this and think, Andy Barnum, how dare you do this? At the moment we are in a really rocky position. It's not long till the local elections. You've really are taking the mick by coming and indirectly challenging the Prime Minister in this way.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And also you've raised the by election itself.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Which is the public facing part of this at the moment? It's party facing. Is it? So I think we've discussed that. But if we do discuss the slate.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Am I not right that that could be filled with some very big names from other political parties and other political groups?

[Chris Mason]

Who knows? There's a rumour that Zach Polanski might run the leader of the Green Party. I mean, he is a London assembly member, but he was born in Salford, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but Salford, certainly in Greater Manchester, so that he's got links to the region. He's obviously been on the UP recently. Would he fancy a tilt at going into Parliament? Don't know. Let's see, that could be fascinating. There was a whisper also that Zia Yousef, who's a very senior member of Reform but who's not yet in Parliament, he might have a go in a by election. I'd say that's not confirmed either. But by elections often become these sort of weird, wonderful and also very high profile tests of political popularity.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

George Galloway.

[Chris Mason]

George Galloway as one example, or some of the Lib Dems enormous successes, for example, when they won an Amersham in the sort of dying days of the Tory Party under. I think that was still Boris Johnson, but who knows? They all moved on so quickly at that point, it's all a bit of a blur. But these are unpredictable by elections are really, really unpredictable.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's a fascinating snapshot of our multi party moment in politics. We don't know yet if we're calling it permanent, but we know it's a multi party Snapshot.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So this by election, you've just raised some fascinating names. It could be populated by people who represent the primary colors of our multi party moment.

[Chris Mason]

And that's before we even get to screaming Lord Such or the monster raving loonies.

[Gemma Bolton]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

I mean, who knows by elections at a very febrile time could. It could. I mean all sorts of things could happen. It could be incredibly interesting. But even you know how labor gets through the next sort of 24, 36 hours also could be very bruising. I mean, of course for Auntie Burnham, where he to run and then lose, that's a complete disaster zone. The other reason, a good reason for Labor HQ blocking him is that they don't want to have to find the spondolies to have a big mayo contest. So a mayoral election costs lots of money. You can bet your bottom dollar if Andy Barnum is not in the mayoral contest, they're gonna really want to have a big name in there to be sure that reform doesn't manage to win the mayoralty. I've kind of given myself a headache.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

All the different bit. Bit. But, but that's another. That's a good reason for a Labor hq. You know, why would you put the politics at risk of one of the biggest cities in the country where they've had a successful labor or mayoralty? Why would you want to do that?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I should say that the letter also says that he will help the campaign, help Labor's campaign in Manchester.

[Chris Mason]

But the thing is, there was a whisper yesterday that he was trying to get one of his famous mates in that part of the world to stand Labour mayor. No idea whether there's truth in it or not, but Gary Neville's name was doing the rounds as some kind of person to take his place. And of course he appeared in a party pit hole broadcast with Keir Starmer. So, you know, putting a popular former footballer on the ticket might be something very interesting.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I've got another point to make. So I'm going to get my pen.

[Chris Mason]

And you're pointing at it and pointed.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

At the ceiling because that's one of my things.

[Chris Mason]

Or you're doing ceiling leans forward, point.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Pen rude, pointed at you. But actually it's not a bad thing to be blocked because you still can return at another by election in the future when you still have a prime minister in some trouble, maybe more trouble in the future, but let's assume the same amount of trouble and you've then got the soubriquet of blocked Burnham.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, I love that. You've got an acronym already blocked Burnham Bruised, battered but determined to bite on. No, but then he looked like a martyr. Right.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I mean, that's the thing.

[Chris Mason]

I. I think that there could be huge power for Andy Barnum in the sort of. Oh, well, I tried, but those terrible people blocked me. And forevermore, he could become the vessel into which people's forlorn hopes of a new, softer left labor are poured into forevermore. I mean, some. You know, I was just thinking earlier about the David Miliband situation. Yes, he fought Ed Miliband for the leadership, and yes, he lost by a whisker. But ever since he lost by a whisker, there's been a whole kind of cohort of people in the Labour Party who've had this sort of all this wartiffery. Oh, if only David had won and if only this and if only that. Now, the corollary to that, of course, is, well, if he couldn't win a campaign in his own party, would he have been able to convince the country? Who knows? We never will. But if Branham is blocked, you know, you might have this all sort of parallel universe. Ah, well, if Andy had been allowed to run. Oh, well, if Andy was here.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So. And there's another bit of this as well, which is in the mix in all of this is undoubtedly Morgan McSweeney.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So if you are Morgan McSweeney who was praised at running campaigns within Labor.

[Chris Mason]

Correct. Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Then you must. I mean, it wasn't praised by you and me, but.

[Chris Mason]

Yes. No. Yeah. Well. And he. He was the campaign director on an absolutely thumping majority, and he led reforms and everything.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But would you not already have had two envelopes in your mind? Envelope A, we. We block him.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Envelope B, we don't. They must have get war gamed the outcomes for block and not block.

[Chris Mason]

I'm. Yes, I'm sure they will have done.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And they know what they're going to do already, is what I'm saying. Even though.

[Chris Mason]

Well, probably. I mean, why not? Well, well, well, I suppose so. Starmer's allies probably know what they want to do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

Question is, even if that inner core of the neck are willing to go along with it or not.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right.

[Chris Mason]

Because with people like Lucy Powell, City can Angela Rayner out there saying he should be allowed to run, it's hot. You know, every time somebody who has a big following says that, including Lucy Powell, deputy leader of the party, it becomes harder for summer's allies to do that. I have to say, at five, just after half Five on Saturday. Allies of Starmer sort of think that that is what is. It's being suggested that that is what will probably happen is that he will be blocked. But I just. I don't know. There's risk everywhere.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It would be interesting for newscasters if we took rival positions. And I feel that he won't be blocked. And I feel he won't be blocked because then you can. You can look, as a Prime Minister, you can look like you support a plurality of views in your governing party.

[Chris Mason]

Okay, well, just for fun, I'm gonna say the opposite and we'll find out tomorrow. I think he will be blocked for the kind of brutal truth that Keir Summer and his team, beyond all else, want to stay in power. So why on earth would they invite the fox into the hen house? That make will make that harder for them. But we don't know. Shall we speak to Gemma Bolton, who's on the fabled labor nec? Hi. Thanks for being. No, not at all. It's great to have you with us. And we've. We've probably sounded a bit breathless while we've been trying to go through all the eventualities, but. So you sit on the National Executive Committee. So, Gemma, you sit on the big neck, but you are not on the inner core of the group that's actually going to be making this decision. Right?

[Gemma Bolton]

Somewhat up to debate, basically. Yes, I'm on the full nec, but they have tried to take all decisions back behind closed doors into the NEC officers group, which is a small group and it is of overwhelmingly supporters of the current leadership.

[Chris Mason]

Why do you think then they are keeping member representatives and others out of the decision?

[Gemma Bolton]

That's the big question. I think that there is a lot of control freakery within the top of the Labour Party pretty much ever since Starmer came to power. I think if they block him, it will be seen as a huge act of weakness. He's an incredibly popular candidate. He's a popular mayor, he's popular with the public and with members. And I don't think that they want to take that decision to the members. I mean, we've seen again and again them removing party democracy from the party over the last sort five years now. That's why we're seeing such a drop in our membership as well.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, there was a democratic test before and Andy Burnham didn't pass it in the Labour Party, did he? And I wonder what you think is going to happen. It sounds like you want him to run, but do you think he will be blocked, Gemma?

[Gemma Bolton]

Okay, well, I Mean, that's a number of years ago under very different conditions with very different candidates and former leaders. Obviously a very successful politician. He's been the mayor of Greater Manchester, popular mayor of Manchester for a number of years. And as we said, he's got a huge favorability rating and unfortunately, if we compare that to the Prime Minister at the moment, his is incredibly, incredibly poor.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And just to the other point, do you think he will be blocked, Gemma?

[Gemma Bolton]

I hope not. I do really, really strongly believe that it should be for the members to decide. It's also really essential that we have the strongest candidate possible coming into this by election. It will potentially be just before the May elections if we lose this and we could lose to the right wing parties like Reform, we could lose to a left wing party, to the leftist like the Greens, and if we lose that, we're going to be on the back foot for that local elections. And if we win, it would be on the front foot and we'll be in a really strong position and we really need the strongest candidate possible. I mean, who can we say stronger than a successful mayor of the region the constituency is in?

[Chris Mason]

Gemma, do you think he'd be a better leader than Keir Starmer?

[Gemma Bolton]

I think that Keir Starmer has been a pretty abominable leader of the party, unfortunately. So I think there's quite a few people who would have done a better job than him. We've seen complete flip flopping, backtracking on a range of issues, some really horrific policies on with fuel allowance, teacher benefits, they had to roll back on. So I think that's quite a low bar to be asking that question, unfortunately.

[Chris Mason]

So Burnham would be better?

[Gemma Bolton]

Well, yes.

[Chris Mason]

Gemma, thanks so much for talking to us. It's been a really busy afternoon. It's great to have you with us on Newscaster.

[Gemma Bolton]

Thanks very much for your time.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Thank you.

[Chris Mason]

How interesting to hear a serving member of the Labour Party's ruling body say that Keir Starmer's leadership has been abominable. Her word, not ours. Abominable. Which just goes to show that what this is really about, this whole Hoo Hay Hahu, is about deep unhappiness in the Labour Party at how the government has been performing. Of course, in political parties you can always find people who moan about the leadership. That is bread and butter. But to use a phrase like abominable is really quite something. Interesting just in the last few minutes, Ed Miliband, a cabinet minister, has said on stage at the Fabian Conference that he hopes Andy Burnham will be allowed to run and that the people of Gorton, the constituency party of Gordon and Denton, should be able to choose their candidate. So, look, what might happen is, even if Keir Starmer's allies want to block him, if you've got more and more senior figures saying, let Andy run, is Keir Sama gonna have his knees cut off by his own cabinet?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Because I was just thinking, there will be newscasters who found what Gemma Bolton said to be very strong.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

From someone who is in the Labour Party.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And on the National Executive Committee of that party.

[Chris Mason]

Yes. Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

If this is the strength of opinion on the day of the actual decision, Andy Burnham's decision at 5, right up.

[Chris Mason]

To the wire, it's a real mess, I have to say. And whether or not Andy Barnum wanted this to be the moment where he had a chance to go for it and decided or felt he had to go for it, that's kind of irrelevant. This is the situation that they are in now and there is risk all around. And knowing how the Labour Party tends to handle its internal issues, it might be that everyone ends up getting in one way or another, punched in the face.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Karen in Spain is a newscaster. Does the team think that politics now is too much about personality and competition between personalities and too much about how quickly can we change that person? For another, it seems to me that so much of news reporting is taken up with will he? Won't he challenge the leader? Speculation. Is this indicative of the instant gratification that we see now in society, where there's no staying power just to give us instant results or you're out mentality, very much like a football manager?

[Chris Mason]

I think two things are true. I think one, the pace of news now is incredibly quick and quicker than it used to be. So I think things flame up and burn out faster than they did, partly because of these things, partly because of the media landscape and the world that we live in? I think what's also true is that politics has always been about personality, because it is about human beings. It's about who can persuade you of their argument, whether that's in your own party or persuading you and me as normal voters that you really deserve to be the person for whom you'll put a little cross in the box with your stubby little pencil.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And you were waving your smartphone around.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

When you said these things.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, it could be that we're still got newscasters who are stuck on our pens because we were pointing our pens and now you. But just on Karen's point, yeah, if growth returns and the current Labour government gets what it wants, which is falling inflation, cut in interest rates, growth, then you could argue that those things matter as much as personality. To Karen's point, the problem is when the wheels are wobbling, people ask where the mechanic and the driver is.

[Chris Mason]

That's exactly right. And there are serious people in the Labour movement who point to Andy Barnum and go, you know what? He is not the guy. He has been on such a political journey. You know, a former cabinet minister, a very senior person in the movement, once described Andy Burnham to me with some fondness. I said, he's a lorry on ice. You know, he doesn't keep his position, he swerves all over the place. And he is not seen as everybody, by everybody in the Labour Party as being the solution to their fairly dire situation. You know, there's a reason that he didn't win the leadership in 2010, there's a reason he didn't win the leadership in 2015. And also there are lots of reasons why he, by most people's estimation, has made a great success of being the mayor of Greater Manchester. You know, there is nothing inevitable at all about him arriving in Westminster, being able then to challenge Keir Starmer and then winning and then making a better fist of it. And there is, as I think we say every single weekend, whatever the dramas, there's absolutely a scenario where Keir Starmer stays in power, the economy turns, the world maybe calms down a bit, things improve, energy prices come down, inflation comes down, people cheer up a bit, reform loses its kind of frothy momentum that it's had, the right keeps fighting amongst themselves and actually things look incredibly different in 12, 18, 24 months time. But the reason, I suppose Karen and I hope we haven't been doing it too breathlessly today, the reason that we talk a lot about those personalities is because the government's a very unhappy place and labor is a very unhappy party. So we're reporting on what they're talking about, which is how the hell are they going to get themselves out of this message? And does that or does that not require a change at the top? And like or not in Downing street, and of course they don't like it at all. There are many sitting MPs who think nothing is going to change unless there's a different name above the door.

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[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The history Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chris Mason]

So have you been living under a rock in the last 24 hours?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No, I have not.

[Chris Mason]

So what has been the biggest story in town, apart from Andy Burnham's shenanigans?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I think it's the US President scorning the input of NATO countries in Afghanistan, including the British armed forces and the hundreds who died. It was taken very badly when he said that they that's NATO's allies don't really help us very much. And in Afghanistan, they hadn't gone very near the front line.

[Chris Mason]

And of course, actually, the truth is 457 UK soldiers died in Afghanistan. American and British soldiers served side by side for many, many years. And there was universal condemnation, including, unusually, from Keir Starmer. Even Prince Harry put a statement out late yesterday condemning the American president's remarks. So there's a very unusual, almost universal British pushback to Donald Trump to say, this is not okay. You have offended people. This is outrageous. And pretty much universal condemnation from the political class and all the papers and many members of the public, too. However, in the last hour, so at around 05:00 clock UK time, Donald Trump has had a change of heart.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

The great and very brave soldiers of the United Kingdom. He's written on truth Social will always be with the United States of America.

[Chris Mason]

457 died, many were badly injured, and they were among the greatest of all warriors. The UK Military with tremendous heart and soul, is second to none except for the usa. We love you all and always will President Donald J. Trump. So a change of heart from the White House having caused enormous offense. But there's also another developing story out of there with another shooting on the streets of Minneapolis that I suspect we'll Talk about on tomorrow's newscast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, the Minnesota governor, Tim Waltz has said ICE agents have shot dead another person. So we do see. Just to round up the two things coming together, we saved the newscast to go into the Andy Burnham coverage that we could. But at the same time, it now means we can report a change of change climate words, perhaps a change of heart by President Trump on whether or not allies helped America at the front line. And he has said that the great and very brave soldiers of the United Kingdom will not be forgotten.

[Chris Mason]

And I wonder if this is why. So a message has just popped through from a Downing street spokesperson saying the prime minister spoke to the President of the United States, Donald Trump, this afternoon. He raised the brave and heroic British and Americans who served as side by side. The call is said to have been positive. So whether that message on Truth Social is a product of Keir Starmer expressing displeasure to Donald Trump or whether it was Truth Social telephone after or telephone true Social, but there is obviously from the White House some attempt to make it up.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So look, thank you very much for listening to newscast today. Laura's got her galaxy of stars on the television.

[Chris Mason]

Well, we've got the home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood is on the program tomorrow. So Ed Davey, the Lip Dem leader, and also Ruth Davidson and Andy street, two Tories who are ganging up together to try to influence the leadership, which is quite an interesting phenomenon.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Sounds a fabulous lineup. I will be on Radio 4 with Michael Gove taking an interest in what's going on in labour and also the Polish foreign minister. And we're going to ask if the rising number of dogs in pubs is affecting cats that are resident in pubs.

[Chris Mason]

That's just my kind of story. What cats resident in pubs?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, there has been a tradition of ca. Oh, in some pubs.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, having like a pub cat. So not taking your cat to the pub.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No, you don't take your cat to the pub.

[Chris Mason]

So it's not like top cat, it's pub cat.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, that's right.

[Chris Mason]

Pub cat. Okay, fine. That sounds fun.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I hope so.

[Chris Mason]

But do you know what else is fun? Zoe Ball's really fun. Zoe Ball thinks you and me and Adam are really fun.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, this is a. She spotted you in the supermarket. Let's have a listen. This is what she said.

[Zoe Ball]

I always run into people at car hire places. Billy Piper, Tom o', Dell, Matt Haig, all I've met at car hire places when I've gone on holiday. One of my favorite ever holiday sp, Laura Koonsberg in the pastor aisle In a supermarket in a holiday resort. I love Laura Kunsberg. I love all the, all the, all the gang who do newscasts. Adam Fleming, the whole crew. Lovely Chris Mason. And I mean, they're like rock stars to me. And I deliberately was going down the aisle with my trolley. I was like, I've got to go back. I've got to go back and speak to Laura Koonsberg. And I was really chuffed. And did you?

[Chris Mason]

I did.

[Zoe Ball]

I was just, I just went up and super fanned and then probably went bright red and then had to leg it. And I was really tough. I was at the BBC the other day and she was just getting out of cab. She's like, zoe, hello. And I was like Flora Ginsburg saying hi to me, by the way.

[Chris Mason]

Well, who knew? Radio queen Zoe Ball is a newscast fan. So, Zoe, if you're listening, it's very exciting.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's Zoe Ball and Joe Wiley's Dig it podcast, which I've just said in a very dad like way.

[Chris Mason]

Dig it, dig it, dig it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Everyone with Zoe and Joe. What was in Zoe's trolley?

[Chris Mason]

I don't remember what was in Zoe's trolley, but I do remember that I was incredibly excited. I was like, oh, there's Zoe Ball. She's so cool. She's amazing. Wonder if I should say hello to her.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I hope her trolley was full of high processed food and sweets.

[Chris Mason]

Well, I think it was in Majorca. I think so. It was in that kind of supermarket where basically you're buying crisps. Obviously. I was buying Crip foreign crisps. So good. The whole world. Paprika. You just like, take your chance. Foreign crisps. And probably some rose probably as well. But I was incredibly excited. So I'm very excited to know that she was also excited because I was really excited. And then I did see her outside the BBC a couple of weeks ago and gave her a big hug. And that was when she announced she was going or changing. Changing jobs.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Having met you, maybe that was it.

[Chris Mason]

I'm out of here.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So are we. Listen. It's lovely that Zoe and Joe are listening.

[Chris Mason]

Isn't it nice? What a compliment. They are both radio queens and we.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Say to you, goodbye.

[Chris Mason]

Goodbye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason (closing remarks)]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related. There is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.

[Chris Mason]

Bye.

[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.