Andy Burnham's Emergency Cobra Meeting On Extreme Heat

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast

Episode: Andy Burnham's Emergency Cobra Meeting On Extreme Heat
Date: August 12, 2026
Host: Adam Fleming with guests James Cook and Kirsty Wark
Location: Live from the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, BBC

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the UK government’s urgent response to extreme heat and drought, leading Prime Minister Andy Burnham to chair his first COBRA emergency meeting. The conversation explores the implications of the ongoing heatwave, the increasing frequency of wildfires, climate change, and the tension around energy policy - from bans on disposable barbecues to debates on oil, gas, and renewables in the UK. The panel also discusses political messaging, government responsibilities, and, in a lighter segment, the cultural phenomenon of solar eclipses. Throughout, there’s a distinctly Scottish perspective, catalyzed by the episode’s recording at the Edinburgh Fringe.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Andy Burnham’s COBRA Meeting: Government Response to Extreme Heat

[03:04 – 04:52]

• Andy Burnham, the relatively new Prime Minister, has shifted focus from a cost-of-living tour to chairing his first COBRA emergency meeting due to unprecedented heat and drought affecting England and Wales.
• This is the fifth major heatwave of the summer, with 2026 on track to be the hottest UK summer on record.
• There’s widespread concern about health, business continuity, agriculture, food supply, and wildfires, with significant incidents in England and Scotland.
• James Cook: “It’s becoming extremely serious in terms of the impact on people's health, in terms of the impact on businesses, in terms of the impact, particularly on agriculture.”

2. What Can Government Actually Do About Extreme Heat?

[04:52 – 06:10]

• The government’s preliminary statements focus on basic advice: heed heat alerts, stay hydrated, and ensure fire services have sufficient resources.
• Adam Fleming questions the real efficacy of these actions, pointing out that they may be more about reassuring the public than addressing root causes.
• Adam Fleming: “Maybe this is more about showing they are aware of how worried people are… as opposed to trying to solve the problem of the heat waves or the climate.”

3. Wildfires: Causes, Response, and Prevention

[06:10 – 08:47]

• Wildfires are not just a Southern European or Californian issue—the UK is facing mounting risk.
• Public behavior (litter, barbecues) plays a role in triggering fires.
• Aerial firefighting (as seen in Europe) is lacking in the UK; there's a need for greater capacity and investment.
• Acute discussion about the backbreaking work of wildfire fighting, the role of volunteers, and the impact of land management.
• James Cook: “The bulk of the work of fighting a fire is hard, backbreaking work... clearing brush and cutting firebreaks.”

4. Debate on Disposable Barbecues

[08:10 – 08:47]

• Disposable barbecues are in the political crosshairs for their role starting wildfires.
• Andy Burnham is considering an outright ban on these items, prompting debate over individual freedoms versus public safety.
• Kirsty Wark: “They should just never ever be sold anywhere.”

5. Land Management and Fire Prevention

[08:54 – 12:59]

• The panel dives deep into land management: rewilding, prescribed burns, and housing policies that increase fire risks.
• Historical US policies (e.g., the 10 AM rule after the Big Blowup in 1910) are compared to UK challenges.
• Regulations in Spain and California mandate defensible space around buildings, a concept not adopted in the UK.
• James Cook: “We will ignore that house that's allowed its greenery to grow up to the door. It will burn. Because they've taken a choice not to be serious…”

6. Economic and Policy Challenges

[13:15 – 14:19]

• The UK Climate Change Committee recommends £11 billion annual investment to adapt to climate change (split 50/50 public and private sector).
• The cost of failing to adapt could be 10-20 times higher.
• Budget constraints mean tough choices for the government.
• Adam Fleming: “Five and a half billion to basically pay for an insurance policy against future heat waves that might or might not happen.”

7. Political Messaging, Oil, Gas, and Renewables

[15:09 – 19:52]

• Green Party leader Zach Polanski criticizes government inaction and calls for a ban on new North Sea oil and gas extraction.
• Ongoing debates over existing projects: Jackdaw (gas) and Rosebank (oil). Court challenges have put the onus back on the new Labour government.
• Discussion extends to renewable energy: a proposed (but blocked) Chinese-built wind turbine plant in Ardersier, Scotland.
• Kirsty Wark: “There’s a great deal of pressure because of energy security... But in terms of wind power, there is a massive proposal for Ardersier, which has already been turned down by the government.”

8. Norway’s Approach vs UK’s: Sovereign Wealth and Energy Security

[20:01 – 21:47]

• Norway invested its oil and gas revenues in a sovereign wealth fund—something the UK failed to do, except a minor version in Shetland.
• There was even a secret government report suppressed for years indicating the immense potential value for Scotland.
• James Cook: “They produced a secret report... which said the level of wealth in the North Sea could... make Scotland one of the richest countries in the world. And they kept that secret for years and years and years.”

9. Security Concerns: Chinese Wind Power Investment in Scotland

[22:37 – 24:17]

• The UK government has blocked a major Chinese company from building wind turbine facilities in Scotland over security concerns, sparking criticism and debates about national security vs. economic opportunity.
• The Scottish government, led by John Swinney, is pressing for the project due to its potential job and economic benefits.
• James Cook: “Michael Shanks, the energy Minister... said, I am very surprised that John Swinney, having seen what he’s seen in this security briefing, is still advocating that this will go ahead.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Wildfire Fighting:
  “The bulk of the work of fighting a fire is hard, backbreaking work... clearing brush and cutting firebreaks.”
  — James Cook [06:57]

• On government action vs. climate reality:
  "Maybe this is more about showing they are aware of how worried people are… as opposed to trying to solve the problem of the heat waves or the climate.”
  — Adam Fleming [05:26]

• On Disposables:
  “They should just never ever be sold anywhere.”
  — Kirsty Wark referring to disposable barbecues [07:56]

• On Policy and Costs:
  “You have to weigh it up against the cost of not doing it as well. What would be the cost to the economy of not doing it?”
  — James Cook [14:01]

• On Sovereign Wealth Funds:
  “Was there ever a conversation in the UK and in Scotland in the 80s and 90s about doing that [a sovereign wealth fund]?”
  — Adam Fleming [21:10]

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Special Segment: The Solar Eclipse

[25:04 – 30:52]

• The panel shares eclipse stories, joined (via recording) by Evan Davis from Spain, who “chases” eclipses. He describes the sense of awe and connection to celestial events.
• James Cook recounts his own total eclipse experience in 2017, flying with Alaska Airlines for an aerial view.
  • “In the heavens above us where the dance never ends...” — James Cook’s poetic TV line about eclipses, ribbed by colleagues [28:04].
• Panelists joke about “eclipse snobbery” and proper (safe) ways to view the event.

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Scottish Perspectives: Number 10 North & Devolution

[31:02 – 33:20]

• Discussion on Andy Burnham’s tour and whether the new UK government’s focus on England (vs Scotland and Wales) is alienating non-English parts of the country.
• Devolution remains contentious, with commentary on how much autonomy Scotland truly has on key issues.
• James Cook: “For some people in Scotland, there’s been a sense that [Burnham] is, so far, the Prime Minister of England…”

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Key Timestamps

• 03:04: Andy Burnham’s COBRA meeting announcement and context
• 04:52: Critique of government response to heat crisis
• 06:33: European vs. UK firefighting methods
• 08:10: Ban proposal for disposable barbecues
• 10:16: Land management and rewilding; US-UK policy parallels
• 13:15: Adaptation investment debate
• 15:09: Political messaging; Green Party, oil/gas policy
• 21:10: UK vs Norway oil revenue management
• 22:37: Chinese wind turbine factory debate
• 25:04: Eclipse stories, Evan Davis segment
• 31:02: Number 10 North, Burnham’s UK tour, devolution
• 33:20: Closing remarks and outro

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Memorable and Lighthearted Moments

• Eclipse Poetry: James Cook’s poetic BBC line: “In the heavens above us where the dance never ends.” [28:04]
• Barbecue Ban Jokes: Ongoing, humorous sparring about who gets to host a safe barbecue [08:29]
• Helicopter Training for Oil Rigs: James Cook shares the nerve-wracking underwater escape training required for North Sea reporting [20:01]
• Eclipse Glasses Fashion Show: Kirsty Wark models eclipse glasses to great amusement [30:42]

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Conclusion

A lively, thoughtful episode tackling the seriousness of climate-driven emergencies and the pressures they place on British politics, energy policy, and society. In true Newscast fashion, the panel blends expert insight with wit, grounding big-picture policy issues in everyday reality, and occasionally, in the cosmic wonder of a solar eclipse.

Transcript

[Adam Fleming]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 30% your first year [e-mail] podcast terms apply. Ever walk past a place for rent and wish you could just take a peek inside? Maybe even explore the layout? Envision the natural light streaming through the windows or plan where your vinyl record collection would go? At apartments.com you can. With tools like their 3D virtual tours, you can see the exact unit you could be living in. Really envision yourself in your new home with apartments.com the place to find a place. Hello, this is the third episode of Newscast coming to you from the Edinburgh fringe. And every day we're joined by a new special guest. Well, in this case, James Cook has come back for a second helping. Hello again. I mean, you're still just as welcome as you were yesterday.

[James Cook]

I've had to feel extremely special there. Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, sorry. And also heckling there was Kirsty Wark. Hello, Kirsty, what brings you to the. So the Edinburgh Festival.

[Kirsty Wark]

We are doing front row every Wednesday for four Wednesdays in August, and so therefore I'm hot footing it from here to carry on preparation for tonight's show.

[Adam Fleming]

Later on in this episode of Newscast, we're going to talk about the eclipse. So I'm looking out into the audience here and then. Not a big eclipse fan.

[Kirsty Wark]

Christie, is there any program that's not talked about the eclipse?

[Adam Fleming]

Well, we're only going to do a little bit. Like we're going to talk about other things more, but I just wanted to look at. Because if there's anyone who has got a good eclipse story, as in you've been somewhere exciting, seen eclipse, you were incredibly moved by an eclipse and you would like to come on and convince Kirsty and actually me about why we should care about the eclipse, then the stage will be yours towards the end of this episode.

[James Cook]

I've got one.

[Adam Fleming]

Oh, well, there we go. Good. So we've got a backup and we also have a friend of the podcast waiting. Well, they're not waiting. They sent us a video explaining their love of eclipses. But before that, we will talk about today's News. On this episode of Newscast, Humanity's next great voyage begins. You know, I like my bosses. I'll come on to them.

[James Cook]

I see that he was, I guess,

[Kirsty Wark]

the mayor of a town.

[James Cook]

Ooh la door. Thinking about it like a panther helped.

[Adam Fleming]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Kirsty Wark]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall?

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam on the newscast stage. And I've just realized I didn't tell Kirstie. She then has to say, and hello, it's Kirsty on the newscast stage.

[Kirsty Wark]

Hello, it's Kirsty on the newscast stage.

[James Cook]

And hello, it's James, also on the newscast stage here in Edinburgh.

[Adam Fleming]

And we're joined by lots of newscasters who've come to see us.

[Kirsty Wark]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, so we thought Andy Barnum was going to be going off on this cost of living tour this week, visiting various parts of the UK to talk about some of the policies he's unveiled to help with the cost of living. But instead, he's chairing, James, a meeting of cobra, the government's emergency committee in Whitehall, looking at the extreme temperatures and the drought and the lack of rain.

[James Cook]

Yes, exactly. The relatively new Prime Minister is chairing this COBRA emergency meeting, the first one, as you say, Adam, that he's chaired during his premiership so far. During what is the fifth heat wave of the summer to grip England and Wales, we're on track to have the hottest UK summer on record. A lot of concern, of course, about what's driving that in terms of changing climate and the burning of fossil fuels that's contributing to the changing of the climate. And as if to focus the mind, as if they, I mean, sure, they don't need their minds focused on what is actually, you know, we talk about, oh, it's weather, it's hot, it's nice. But this is becoming extremely serious in terms of the impact on people's health, in terms of the impact on businesses, in terms of the impact, particularly on agriculture. It's beginning to have a serious effect on the food supply. And also in terms of wildfires, the latest wildfire that they're contending with further south from here is in the New Forest in Hampshire. And as you know, and as people here in the audience, newscasters will know, there's been wildfires across many parts of Europe and indeed even here in Scotland at the Cairngorms, where there are still hotspots. And we've not had that hot or that drier summer, certainly not compared to other parts of the uk. All of Wales now officially in Drought, and nearly three quarters of England in drought. But even in Scotland, these hotspots, even now, after quite a lot of rain, are still smouldering away. And the fire service are still on the scene in the Cairngorms.

[Adam Fleming]

Reading the statement that the government put out on Wednesday morning, kind of previewing this meeting, I was struck by a lot of. It was quite basic stuff, like we would urge people to pay attention to the heat alerts and drink enough water, and we're making sure the fire service have enough resources to fight the wildfires. I just wonder, though, if this is a sort of episode or event that a government can really do that much about. And actually, maybe this is more about showing that they are aware of how worried people are and to just give a sense of kind of control as opposed to trying to solve the problem of the heat waves or the climate.

[Kirsty Wark]

I mean, I think there's two things. I think people can look after themselves better, make sure that people have water, make sure you've all got water on you and so forth. But actually, as was with the case last year in a huge fire in Glen Rosa and Arran, it started in the heat, albeit the. But it just takes a single piece of broken glass to be put down, dropped. It's about people's behaviors. It's about people making sure they don't leave things like that behind. And also, people should always have a water. If you're lucky enough to have a garden, have a water butt. Save your water. We waste water all the time. But actually, our fire services would probably, if there was a widespread. I don't know what's happening in England with this. Would probably need the army to help eventually as well.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. And it was interesting talking when I was on Newsnight, your old show, a few days ago, we were interviewing one of the fire chiefs and he was saying actually one of the big things they could do would be to create a nationwide aerial firefighting capacity, which obviously is not a huge thing, not very dramatic. Probably wouldn't be an amazing thing to announce on the news, but actually would be quite a good, practical kind of tweak to how we deal with these things.

[Kirsty Wark]

So in Europe. That's exactly. So in Europe, you've got. I'm sure many, many of you have seen this, but if you have reservoirs, what you do is, is you have. Helicopters will go down and they'll scoop up masses of water and they'll carry it into the forests. We've got plenty of water in Scotland, but we don't have the capacity necessary to lift it to the degree that we need in order to spread it to dampen down fires. But it's also smoke as well. I mean, smoke is every bit as dangerous in a way as fire.

[James Cook]

And the other aspect of that is that, I mean, I've covered a lot of wildfires, I reported a lot of wildfires, mainly in the United States and in Canada. And what you realize when you're looking at firefighting, because you think of the drama of the water bombing of the fire, but actually the bulk of the work of fighting a fire is hard back breaking work, clearing brush and cutting firebreaks. And that takes an enormous number of people doing extremely hard work. And it also takes the cooperation of people not, as you say, Kirsty, to make mistakes in the first place. I mean, this fire that they're talking about that's burning at the moment in the New Forest, they're talking about that being a van that caught fire, the one that took hold in the Cairngorms, they think was human activity. They've not been precise about what. But it started near a bothy, a hut where walkers can stay. And I think, I think so. When I lived in California, there was a mindset drilled in through public information

[Kirsty Wark]

and there were children and there was children firing. The other thing that should be banned straight away, and maybe I'm behind the curve, is these silver mobile barbecues. They should just never ever be sold anywhere. Maybe that's. Maybe that's happened.

[James Cook]

Well, the Prime Minister's talked about that today, Adam, hasn't he? And Andy Burnham has been talking about that exact thing today. He's been saying that he will consider banning those. He thinks that. I mean, I got the impression he is actually going to do that and he was discussing it. I wonder if that's something that will come up at the COBRA meeting.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. And not to be Dell's advocate, but, Kirsty, it's fine if you've got a garden with your own barbecue.

[Kirsty Wark]

Absolutely.

[Adam Fleming]

But then if your only chance of having a barbecue is a trick disposable barbecue and then they're banned, that's like a fun thing that some people won't get to do.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, but. Yeah, but there might not be a fire that covers 500 square miles. I mean, I know it's really awful if people want to have a barbecue and can't, but right now it's not a priority. Sorry. If you're thinking of having.

[Adam Fleming]

I'm trying to get an invite to your house or a barbecue, you're not Getting the hint.

[Kirsty Wark]

I tell you something, we won't use the barbecue. Just no way. No way.

[James Cook]

The other aspect of this, which is a much wider aspect about why these fires, when they take hold, are able to burn so rapidly, is a land management debate as well. And there's been a pretty. I was honestly going to say heated debate about it, but I shot him somewhere. I really didn't mean that that was an accident. There's been an intense debate already in the Cairngorms about land management. There's a debate in Scotland any about what they call rewilding about returning some of the land to nature. When I was based in the States, we talked about this a lot as well. And I remember that one of the reasons they think that the wildfires, when they take hold in places such as California or Colorado or wherever, that they burn so much and cause so much damage, is because humans have encroached into the wildlands to a dramatic degree. In 1910, there was a fire in Idaho that spread to neighboring states called the Big Blow up. More than 85 people were killed. And as a direct result, the US Forest Service and Fire Service decided that all fires would have to be out by 10am the next day. The result of that was that they stopped burning fire as land management, which allowed the fuel to build up. And that has caused an enormous problem there. And that is now a debate that we're having in this country about allowing fuel to build up without having controlled burns when it's cooler.

[Adam Fleming]

And there's an interesting thing about British politics here, and this is a sort of insight into how political messaging works. So. So last week, Zach Polanski, the leader of the Greens in England and Wales, did a speech where he said, this heat situation is an emergency. The government needs to be treating it like a crisis. And people were like, oh, Zach Polanski's talking about the environment and climate change, which he hadn't really been doing very much. Even though he's the leader of the Greens, his big thing was cost of living and corporate fat cats. So that was him sort of moving back onto traditional Green territory. Now, because he did that, it now means that in all the news stories today about this COBRA meeting being called, he's the second politician that gets quoted, because it sort of sounds like he was the one calling for this. And Andy Burnham is having to sort of catch up with him, which I'm sure Andy Burnham would deny. But it's just a little thing about how politicians have to sort of earn the right to be in Certain debates. And actually, that's why Zach Polanski probably wants to get back on that territory.

[Kirsty Wark]

Also, you know, brilliant director Paul Greengrass made a really good film about the wildfires in California two years ago. Can't remember the name of it, so sorry about that. But it was about this incredible true story about a teacher and a driver got these kids out and you saw the reality, and it was a reality of how the bus windows burn. I mean, they crack and they burn. I mean, not being able to get kids out from schools is a massive thing. So. So how do you create firebreaks around schools in the uk, then? How do you make sure that that kind of thing can't happen?

[James Cook]

I just think it's a debate we're not even close to properly engaging with yet. And I think we will be forced to engage with it by circumstances really, very, very soon.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, in Spain, they have a law about how much of a gap there has to be between a building and a woodland sort of law that we don't have.

[James Cook]

Same in California, they call it defensible space. And I spoke to a very senior firefighter in California who said to me once, I say, how do you. If you're running down a street and you're trying to save the houses? Because as well as the aerial bombardment and the clearing of brush, the third element of firefighting in a massive wildfire is structure protection. And they'll have a team for sometimes a team for each house. It's really intensive and it's really difficult and fairly dangerous. And I say, you're looking at this street, what do you do? He said, we will ignore that house that's allowed its greenery to grow up to the door. It will burn. Because they've taken a choice not to be serious about. And it wasn't that I'm punishing for it. It was like, I have to be realistic about what I can save and we will not be saving that house. So, I mean, that's the level of. That's the level you're talking about, of the seriousness of why there is individual responsibility here as well. I mean, we're not quite at this stage, thank goodness, yet. But, I mean, goodness knows, you look at what's happening with all these wildfires at the moment and you wonder if this is coming for.

[Kirsty Wark]

But in so many areas of the uk, smaller communities are dependent on what I think are absolute heroes and heroines, which is volunteer fire service people, you know, who will go out day and night. It's like mountain rescue, who will go out to defend the community. It's incredible.

[Adam Fleming]

And just in terms of looking further ahead, I was just reminding myself of the Climate Change Committee report that we covered on newscast quite extensively when it was published in May. It's called A well Adapted uk, and they reckon that to deal with all the challenges that the changing climate is going to send our way, you need to spend £11 billion a year, and that is split 50, 50 between the private sector just doing their investment and then public money. So, to me, actually, five and a half billion pounds of public money for this huge, huge thing that's coming our way doesn't seem like a huge amount.

[James Cook]

Well, you have to weigh it against the cost.

[Kirsty Wark]

Andy Burnham is going to be faced with a budget, isn't he, where he's going to go, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. I mean, what's going to happen?

[Adam Fleming]

I mean, five and a half billion to basically pay for an insurance policy against future heat waves that might or might not happen.

[James Cook]

Yeah, but my point was you have to weigh it up against the cost of not doing it as well. You have to consider that what would be the cost to the economy of not doing it? What's the cost if we're struggling to, you know, to insure homes?

[Adam Fleming]

Well, the Climate Change Committee say it could be 10 to 20 times more than the amount needed for investment.

[Kirsty Wark]

But the other thing about the fires that are across the UK now, particularly in farmland, is that it's like a lot of that ground. Are they really going to be ready to put crops in in the autumn? I mean, you just don't know what the implications are for food security, which

[Adam Fleming]

I then come back to. What can a meeting in Whitehall do about that this afternoon, other than suggest that the Government's trying to grip it?

[James Cook]

Yeah, I was trying to find the statistic, Adam, a second ago. Some 966wildfires the National Fire Chiefs Council in England and Wales say they've responded to this year. 966, including 185 in the first 10 days.

[Adam Fleming]

Can you see that? James and I are having a binder off live.

[James Cook]

Oh, I know, I know. I will never. Just to be clear, I will never have a binder off with you because there's only one winner. There's only one winner.

[Adam Fleming]

Feel free. Or we could be joint first, please.

[James Cook]

I am not taking you on in that. You're the king of the binders.

[Adam Fleming]

Now, I mentioned Zach Polanski, leader of the Greens in England and Wales, he was saying as part of this. So he sort of criticised the government for just having a meeting about this rather than actually doing anything as far as he's concerned. And he said the Prime Minister must also commit to no new oil and gas extraction in the North Sea. We cannot negotiate with the science. In other words, he's saying the government shouldn't be doing anything that would make the potential climate crisis even worse. Kirsty, would you like to give us a big thought on just where the Scottish conversation about oil and gas in the North Sea is at the moment?

[Kirsty Wark]

Well, it's a kind of. It's a kind of a hinged conversation because there's a conversation about the gas field of Jackdaw, which is ready to go, and Rose bank, which is obviously all you, you know, is the oil one. Now, basically, there's a great deal of pressure because of security, energy security, to get this stuff out there in Scotland. Of course, the SNP government doesn't want that to happen. But the flip side of that is, in terms of wind power, there is a massive proposal for Ardesir, which has already been turned down by the government. The Chinese would build the biggest kind of wind manufacture, wind farm manufacturing for turbines. That's been turned down by the government. John Swinney wants that to go ahead. So whether there's a quid pro quo, and you also have to think that he's moved Ed Miliband out of environment where he was absolutely dead against oil and gas. So I think there's gonna be some deal done somewhere. Now we can't process that oil, the gas can come on. But I do think that something's gonna move in this now, when I would imagine will be quite soon in the gas and oil decision.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. Because, James, the backstory to Rosebank and Jackdaw is this was a decision to go to approve these new things by the last Conservative government, but they got challenged in court and then it meant that the Labour government had to make the decision again. And that's what we're waiting for.

[James Cook]

Yeah. And on that basis, I think there's been a bit of confusion because people have been talking about whether or not licenses should be granted for. For Jackdaw, which is about 150 miles east of Aberdeen and is a gas field. And Rosebank, which is off the west of Shetland, actually in the Atlantic, which is predominantly oil, as Kirsty says, but with a little bit of gas. But actually their licenses to drill have already been granted and indeed four giant wells at Jackdaw have been drilled. I have seen them. I have been out there. I've stood right beside them. These huge wells that have been drilled into the ground about 100 meters to the seabed and then 4.9 kilometers below that. It's quite some engineering project. But it's not licenses. I'm not saying either of you have got this wrong, but there's been a lot of debate that's got this wrong. It's permits to allow them to go ahead. And as you say, they had to go back to court because they were ordered to factor in not just the climate impact of producing the oil and gas, but of eventually burning it. And that is what they're now doing.

[Kirsty Wark]

But the point about that, as you were saying, is the licenses were granted. Now, the, that might be the get out clause for the government because what they're saying essentially is we will give no new licenses. Well, these aren't new licenses.

[James Cook]

I think that is the point. And I think on that basis it would be. I'm not saying it would be easy for the UK government to approve it in the face of opposition from the Greens, opposition from environmentalists, in the context of exactly what we've just been discussing. And indeed, some environmentalists, for example, the group Uplift, are citing the chief of the International Energy Agency, Fatib Birol, who had said that reapproving Rosebank would have a minimal impact on UK energy security. They're also saying it would have no impact whatsoever on reducing bills. And as Kirsty says, the oil from Rosebank would be taken off by tanker and sold on the international markets. Some of that might come back in products to the UK through refineries on the continent, but it is not in the control of the uk. In very stark contrast to Norway, which has state ownership of its oil and gas and a sovereign wealth fund as a result of that. I mean, that's almost a whole other debate. But the point is that you could definitely see a route where labor could say, no, no, our manifesto, we are consistent with our manifesto allowing Rosebank and Jackdaw to go ahead. And certainly when I was out there at the Jackdaw platform, a juror, which is a company involving Shell, a conglomerate, Shell on one hand and on the other, consortium rather, Shell on one hand and the Norwegian state oil company Equinor on the other hand. And the head of a juror was saying, we are ready to produce gas by this autumn and that could be helping the UK's supply.

[Adam Fleming]

I certainly can't outbinder that, definitely can't outbinder that.

[Kirsty Wark]

That was a brilliant analysis.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, really good.

[Kirsty Wark]

Can't outbinder that.

[Adam Fleming]

The whole time I was thinking, I was like, but did he get a ship or a helicopter?

[James Cook]

A helicopter. And not only did I get a helicopter, Adam, but to go in the helicopter. And if any newscasters in here have been out to the north.

[Adam Fleming]

Did you do the training?

[James Cook]

Yeah. Has anyone done it? Has anyone been out there? No. Load of landlippers, they take you in a pretend helicopter, a shell of a fuselage, sort of shell of a helicopter, and they dunk you into a swimming pool and you have to push the window. You have to get the window out underwater, push. Put your breathing apparatus in your mouth. You have to wait seven seconds. I think it's seven. I should really know that.

[Adam Fleming]

Only did it a week. It took such a long time, I

[James Cook]

know, for the rotors to stop turning. Cause if you swim out with the rotors turning, I mean, there are no rotors in the swimming pool, just to be clear. But you have to wait, count to seven, go underwater, put your breather on as you go under the water, push the window out, swim out, get to safety. You have to do that before you go out there. And by the way, days and days and days of other courses and that's

[Adam Fleming]

what we're going to recreate now with this giant fish tank. Yeah, me and Kirsty are going to do it.

[Kirsty Wark]

Not a chance in hell.

[Adam Fleming]

No, Kirsty, just rewinding a little bit there when you said a bit off. My sovereign wealth fund, in other words, what Norway did with its oil and gas wealth, it created a giant fund.

[Kirsty Wark]

Such an incredibly clever thing to do that.

[Adam Fleming]

Invested around the world and made loads of money for the Norwegian taxpayer. Not to go through ancient history, but was there ever a conversation in the UK and in Scotland in the 80s and 90s about doing that?

[Kirsty Wark]

There must have been, because what happened was, is that there's a mini one, Shetland has an oil fund. So Shetland very cleverly carved out a small amount for community projects, which covers, you know, massive amount of things. And that was really very clever of them. But of course, there was a massive debate. It was really Whitehall who ruled the roost then, anyway, remember? So there was very little the Scottish office was doing to counter that.

[James Cook]

And also it's on the record that they hushed up. They produced a secret report, Gavin McCrone, the economist for the government, which said that the level of wealth in the North Sea could have a material effect and make Scotland one of the richest countries in the world. And they kept that Secret for years and years and years. I mean, that's not conspiracy, though. Some people thought it was a conspiracy for a long time. That's a fact.

[Adam Fleming]

And then, of course, the value of oil and gas in the future became a big factor in the independence referendum in 2014, which is the subject of an old newscast coming very soon, starring James Cook and Lorna and a little bit of me also. Yeah, Kirsty, just going back to that story you mentioned about the. So it's a Chinese firm, wants to build a wind turbine production factory in the Highlands. John Swinney, the First Minister of Scotland, is very pro that because of the jobs it would create and the boost.

[Kirsty Wark]

It would be tough. We all know of Ardesir because way back when they were building rigs for the North Sea, Ardesea was benefiting a lot. Then Ardesea became a kind of graveyard of old rigs and the economy was completely flattened. Now, you know me, I think it's Mei Yang, it's called, I think, Ming Yang. Ming Yang is a company that wants to build what would be an incredibly important for the local employment. Wind farm. Farm, actually.

[Adam Fleming]

A wind farm farm.

[Kirsty Wark]

A wind farm farm. And when they. And of course, the whole thing about Ardesir is it's deep water. They can get these wind turbines out, in and out. But it was blocked by the UK government. I mean, it was brought by the UK government because those fears of security fears because the Chinese were building it, building them. But do you remember, I'm sure you all do, at the point where there were going to be the small power stations, England mainly, were going to be built with Chinese and French, I think it was. And the Chinese were, again, for security reasons.

[Adam Fleming]

Not back in the Theresa May era.

[Kirsty Wark]

Exactly. But what John Swinney is saying. I think there's new management, actually, new Chinese management. And what John Swinney is saying is we need this. We really need this for the economy and may great boost the economy and it will contribute to renewables.

[Adam Fleming]

And I suppose, again, thinking about the politics of that, John Sweeney can huff and puff a lot because it's not ultimately his decision. So he's never going to get the blame. He's trying to make sure everyone knows the blame is on the UK government for stopping it, because actually, he doesn't have to worry about national security and China threats.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, but I think he should be worrying about national security because Scotland would

[Adam Fleming]

be, you know, it's not a Scottish government thing.

[James Cook]

No, no, but we all need to

[Kirsty Wark]

be concerned about national security and.

[James Cook]

And in terms of the UK government's position, Michael Shanks, the energy Minister, was on Radio Scotland breakfast this morning and he was saying, we invited John Swinney to a security briefing. We gave him the access. We, we got him into that briefing, I think as a member of the Privy Council, which allows him certain privileges to see secret information. Michael Shanks, challenged on whether or not the UK government would rethink this, said, we basically said, no, not in so many words. But that was the gist of it because he said, I am very surprised. I'm surprised that John Swinney, having seen what he's seen in this security briefing, is still advocating that this will go ahead. Now the problem for us as journalists says, well, we'd love to verify who's right and who's wrong about this and can we see it, please? But no, I don't, I don't think. I don't think.

[Kirsty Wark]

Unless anybody would like to leak us documents from the security briefing.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, Kirsten, you got to do something you wanted to do. Now you have to do something you don't want to do, which is talk about the eclipse. Okay, so we are recording. It's quarter past three now where we are. I'm guessing by the time this has been. This podcast has dropped and people have got around to listening to it, the eclipse will have happened because it's about 6ish.

[Kirsty Wark]

I'll tell you something interesting about the

[Adam Fleming]

eclipse that surprises me.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, really two things. I saw a thing on the BBC online. Whether it's true or not, one hopes it is because should all be verified that if you're thinking of looking at the clips and you don't have the right stuff, you put a lettuce colander in front of your face. That's incredible. That's like Lord Bin face.

[James Cook]

I think the idea is to project onto the face of. Just to be clear. I think the idea is to project the image through the colander onto the. You're not to look at the sun through the colander or otherwise unless you're wearing special glasses.

[Kirsty Wark]

The other thing that will be interesting is to see how many druids are up in Salisbury Crags and up on Arthur's Seat at eclipse time.

[Adam Fleming]

That's so good because that's literally just around the corner from here.

[Kirsty Wark]

It is. Will you be there?

[Adam Fleming]

No, because I'll be reading out a full list of candidates for the Clapton by election, which is available on the BBC news website.

[James Cook]

That'll take about a month.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, exactly. So I'll miss the eclipse.

[James Cook]

Was it 34.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes. Yeah. Now, earlier on I asked if anyone in the audience here had a good eclipse eclipse story. Has anyone got a good eclipse story? Tumbleweed.

[Kirsty Wark]

My point exactly.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, this live focus group has not worked out very well, but anyway, we have managed to rope in one of the BBC's big name eclipse addicts. It is Evan Davis, who basically, whenever there's a big eclipse, will go to that place so he can witness it. And I thought, why don't we text him and get him to impress Kirsty or try and convince Kirsty why she should be more pro eclipse or more Evan Davis about it. So I think we can listen now to what Evan sent us. Hello from a noisy hillside in northern Spain. I'm here for the eclipse tonight. Fingers crossed we'll have a cloudless sky. I'll tell you why I love these things. I love everything to do with space. I know I'm never going to get there. I am never going to touch, touch the moon. I realize that. But touching the shadow of the moon is surely the next best thing. Touching it as it passes over 2000 miles an hour or so, passes over the surface of the Earth. What better celestial experience can you have while still on this planet? It is extraordinary watching it go dusky dark and then light again in the hours of brightness. It is just quite a thing. I just love eclipses. I mean, he won me over.

[Kirsty Wark]

I'm on my way.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean, you are here already. It's not great. It's not a long way out of your way, is it? James, does that description remind you of anything you've said about eclipses in the past?

[James Cook]

Well, yeah, I wasn't going to tell that one. Yeah. So, yes, do. My colleague, Lorna Gordon relentlessly reminds me and complains that I wrote the line over a TV report about an eclipse, a partial eclipse in the uk, when I think we're in Dundee at the Mills Observatory reporting on it, that I opened the piece with the line in the heavens above us where the dance never ends. And she thinks this is ludicrously pretentious.

[Adam Fleming]

I think that deserves a round of applause. It's beauty, it's beautiful.

[James Cook]

That's poetry. That is poetry. Anyway, I have seen a total, a full solar eclipse. Not only that, I was one of around a couple of hundred of the first humans out of all the billions of humans on Earth to witness this particular eclipse, which was in 2017, because I went on a special flight put on by Alaska Airlines and we left Portland, Oregon and we flew out into the Pacific at what, 2,300 miles there and back, which seems ridiculous now. Anyway, we did, and we were.

[Adam Fleming]

You could just shut your eyes and have the same effects.

[James Cook]

So we were intersecting with the eclipse at the exact moment when it was beginning, so no one else could see this.

[Kirsty Wark]

Were you taking a lot of drugs? No. Can I just interrupt to say I feel bad because I think Eclipse. I watch Eclipse. They are amazing, and I think what you've done is phenomenal.

[James Cook]

Well, the funny thing. That's lovely. Yes, thank you. So are you taking any drugs? So we were traveling. The pilot had to explain to us that we were traveling at 520 miles an hour. The moon's shadow would be going at 4,000 miles an hour, and we had to intersect with it. He said, we basically need to try to sideswipe a car traveling at 4,000 miles an hour. The flying had to be on to within a second or two so we could hit this. It was really. And it was amazing to see out the window. And we'd been promised. This is your experience. Exclusive first loop. We thought, we'll get the first pictures on the whole Earth, this amazing, exclusive pictures, and we'll feed them back into the beast that is the BBC, and we'll get them on air before anybody else. And we boarded the flight, and we're like, right, so what's the WI fi arrangement for, like, filing? And they were like, there's no WI fi. So by the time we got back, everyone else on the Earth had seen the eclipse, and no one could care less about our pictures. Like, a complete waste of time. Oh, I've got these glasses, though.

[Adam Fleming]

Hold on.

[James Cook]

No, go on, Adam.

[Adam Fleming]

I was just gonna say the celestial dance never started. What is this?

[James Cook]

They gave me these safety glasses.

[Kirsty Wark]

It's Fireball XL5. Joe 90.

[James Cook]

These were fancy. These are fancy ones.

[Adam Fleming]

Kirsty, try that. I want to see how you look in them. You're a style icon until this.

[James Cook]

You can see. You can see nothing in here at all.

[Adam Fleming]

I'm just gonna take a picture.

[James Cook]

Wait a minute.

[Adam Fleming]

How many times have you been in vogue?

[James Cook]

She's always in vogue

[Adam Fleming]

now. While Evan Davies was talking, Kirsty leaned over. She said, ask me about Andy Burnham in Scotland before I go.

[Kirsty Wark]

Okay. Simply the number 10 of the North. Okay.

[Adam Fleming]

North of England.

[Kirsty Wark]

It didn't say that. He said, the number 10 in the north. Is that to do with Game of Thrones, or is it to do with the Midlands? Because the north is, I'm afraid, Sutherland

[Adam Fleming]

or Shetland, which is a bit of Scotland.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah. But the Shetlanders and Arcadians are quite

[Adam Fleming]

happy to be separate from us.

[James Cook]

That's true. Andy Burnham. How King of the south for us.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, Well, I don't think Cornwallians. Is that the right word? No, it's not the right word. What's it feel like to be in Devon and Cornwall? Do we need a number 10 of the hot. Probably southwest and southeast.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, but how does. How. I mean, seriously, though, in Scotland, is there coverage of number 10 north? Does anyone even give it a moment's thought?

[Kirsty Wark]

But, I mean, what's number 10 north done for us yet? I'm being very non. I'm being completely impartial here. I'm saying what is happening. We don't. He's coming, but we don't know where he's coming to. But is he going to be here for a day, a week, a month? He's going to bring Anasawa with him.

[James Cook]

I think one of the issues for the Prime Minister, one of the issues is that a lot of the immediate measures that he's put in place have been relating to England or England and Wales only. Not all of them, but quite a lot of them. And I think for some people in Scotland, there's been a sense that he is so far, and I'm not saying this, but there's a sense among some people, he's the Prime Minister of England at the moment and I think he's alive to that issue, which is not least why he's saying, I'm going to go tour the uk. He's keen to talk about Aberdeen and to talk about the oil and gas industry, we are told when he does that, I think is an interesting question. But also his devolution agenda is interesting. How that plays out in Scotland, because he can't really enforce some of the things he wants to do in England in terms of pushing power down into local communities, as he puts it, in Scotland, without the approval or the agreement or the consent of the Scottish government, who are not as keen on that and indeed are criticizing over government. Well, they're also criticised, the Scottish Government, particularly under the snp, for centralising a lot of power into Edinburgh.

[Adam Fleming]

Right.

[James Cook]

Which they deny.

[Adam Fleming]

You said for the record, we've covered a lot of ground on this episode of newscast, but unfortunately it's come to an end. So please say thank you to James and to Kirsty and to the audience who came to see us today. And Kirsty is going to skedaddle.

[Kirsty Wark]

Rating for 750.

[Adam Fleming]

That's too told. Listen to newscast first, though. Newscast.

[Kirsty Wark]

Newscast from the BBC from one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-33-0123, 9480. Be assured, I promise you listen to everyone. This episode sponsored by Ridwell Ever tossed something into your recycling bin and just hoped it would get recycled? That's wish cycling. And most of the time those items don't actually get recycled. Ridwell makes it simple to get it right. Ridwell helps you recycle the things your curbside bin doesn't take, like plastic bags, snack wrappers, pill bottles and bottle caps. Getting started is easy. Just order a starter kit, fill the bags, send them back for free, and Ridwell takes care of the rest. Start [e-mail].