Are Apprenticeships The Answer To Youth Unemployment?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast — Are Apprenticeships The Answer To Youth Unemployment?
Date: July 28, 2026
Host: Adam Fleming (BBC News)
Guests:

• Shane Chowin (Editor, FE Week)
• Justine Greening (Former Education Secretary, Founder of The Purpose Coalition)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Andy Burnham's new education policy, aiming to address youth unemployment and the rising number of NEETs—young people Not in Employment, Education, or Training (over 1 million in the UK). The discussion explores Burnham’s proposal to boost vocational education in England, giving vocational training equal status to academic routes, and examines the feasibility and challenges of such a shift. Later, the episode shifts to discuss the upcoming Greater Manchester mayoral by-election, but the primary focus is on whether expanded apprenticeships and technical education can tackle youth unemployment.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The NEET Crisis and Political Response

• Stark statistic: Over 1 million NEETs in the UK.
• Andy Burnham, former mayor of Manchester, is rolling out a national plan to address this, focusing on elevating vocational education alongside academic pathways.

Notable Quote:
_"It brings some hope to a lot of young people in this country who know the education system is not built for them." — Andy Burnham (04:49)**

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2. Details of Burnham’s Education Reform Proposal

[04:15–05:20]

• Starting in 2028, students entering Year 10 (age 14) will be offered expanded access to technical training alongside English, maths, and science.
• New subjects include AI, manufacturing, engineering, construction, health, and social care.
• Plan to achieve “parity of esteem” between vocational and academic routes.

Notable Quote:
_"From 2028, young people... will have access to a wider range of technical training options alongside their core subjects... AI, manufacturing, engineering..." — Shane Chowin (04:15)

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3. Parity of Esteem: Revisiting an Old Debate

[05:20–06:33]

• Previous governments—including Justine Greening's tenure—attempted to raise the status of vocational education (apprenticeship levy, T Levels).
• Greening: Applauds Burnham's step but suggests employers should be more involved in curriculum development and calls for pathways that genuinely connect students to work.

Notable Quotes:
_"I still think we've got this differential between vocational education and then there's other education that's academic. Actually, we should be asking all education to be building those pathways for young people into employment." — Justine Greening (05:39)

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4. Implementation Challenges: Resources and Employers

[06:33–10:07]

• Teacher shortages and lack of facilities for applied technical courses.
• Further education (FE) colleges are already at capacity due to demographic shifts.
• Need for capital investment in FE and strategic employer involvement.
• Local councils will use “local skills improvement plans” to establish which skills are needed regionally (e.g., green skills, digital, engineering).
• Discussion of how employer expertise (e.g., technicians teaching in schools) could fill skills gaps, but pay and recruitment are issues.

Notable Quotes:
_"Colleges didn't have enough construction teachers... we can't pay them enough to come off site and teach that subject." — Shane Chowin (11:03)
_"These are the sorts of innovations — four days in the office, one day in college — knitting together employers as part of the solution far more strategically." — Justine Greening (12:35)

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5. Social Mobility & The Role of Business

[10:07–13:29]

• Greening highlights need for policy incentives for businesses to invest in talent and provide high-quality work placements.
• She argues for “thinking big”—beyond compliance and into active social mobility strategies.
• The apprenticeship levy and 4+1 schemes are mentioned as ways for industry professionals to transfer knowledge to students.

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6. Apprenticeship Bursaries & Universal Credit

[13:29–14:59]

• New government-announced bursary to support families on Universal Credit whose children take apprenticeships (so they are not penalized by a loss of benefits).
• Only expected to impact a relatively small number of families but could remove a financial barrier to apprenticeships.

Notable Quote:
_"There might be a kind of a drop in household income... which the government wants to make up through this bursary." — Shane Chowin (13:52)

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7. Lessons from Past Reforms: T Levels, Regrets, and the Missing Entrepreneurship Path

[15:01–18:43]

• Greening: No regrets on T Levels/apprenticeship levy, but sees a need to add entrepreneurship as a recognized educational path.
• Emphasizes that informing students early and offering quality advice is vital, but pathways must remain flexible, not limiting future choices.

Notable Quote:
_"I think there's a third route we need that isn't vocational, isn't academic, which is entrepreneurship." — Justine Greening (15:48)

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8. Manchester Baccalaureate (MBAC) and Risks of Policy Shift

[18:43–20:50]

• Manchester's MBAC is praised for branding vocational education as a valid pathway and for bringing institutions together.
• Concerns: Without real parity of choice, efforts may unintentionally reduce university access or not deliver for all.
• Monitoring school accountability measures—will schools advertise university places or apprenticeships equally?

Notable Quote:
_"Do they say, we've trained X number of plumbers, builders? Would that have the same pull and draw on their marketing efforts?" — Shane Chowin (20:19)

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9. The Student Loan System & Calls for Pre-emptive Reform

[20:50–23:46]

• Lucy Powell (Education Secretary) criticized the “egregious” student loan system; Greening agrees the model is unstable and regrets Parliament's reactive (rather than proactive) approach to higher education funding reform.

Notable Quote:
_"We have to have a version of politics in Britain that gets ahead of these problems... rather than simply just reacting." — Justine Greening (22:48)

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Segment Timestamps for Key Topics

• The NEET Crisis & Burnham’s Plan: 01:38–05:20
• Parity of Esteem & Policy Details: 05:20–07:54
• Practical Challenges in Implementation: 07:54–10:07
• Business & Social Mobility Involvement: 10:07–13:29
• Apprenticeship Bursaries/Universal Credit: 13:29–14:59
• T Levels, Regrets & More Pathways: 15:01–18:43
• MBAC & Policy Risks: 18:43–20:50
• Student Loan System & Policy Lag: 20:50–23:46

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "Parity of esteem": The repeated phrase capturing the desired equal value between vocational and academic routes—both guests return to this concept.
• On business’ role: "What's the policy agenda around incentivizing and supporting companies to think, you know what, actually, rather than personnel retiring in the next couple of years, why don't we... move to a 4+1 scheme..." (Justine Greening, 12:35)
• On flexibility: "The key is making sure that whatever choices you're making at 14, 16, 18, it unlocks and opens doors for you in future life rather than closing them down." (Justine Greening, 17:24)
• On past policy inertia: "Why should Parliament have to literally have people facing the crisis themselves as MPs before it actually is able to act?" (Justine Greening, 22:48)

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Tone & Style

• Insider but public-facing: Expert but accessible, with clarity on jargon (explaining FE, MBAC).
• Warm and pragmatic: Guests are candid about the scale of the challenge, and supportive of reform ambitions, but warn of resource, implementation, and political headwinds.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a nuanced discussion about the promise and complexity of using apprenticeships and expanded vocational training to mitigate youth unemployment. While Burnham’s proposals are widely welcomed as essential and overdue, the episode features robust debate around implementation realities, the persistent barriers to parity, and the need for sustained political, educational, and business commitment. Both expert guests emphasize vision and partnership as vital for any bid to close the NEETs gap—and caution that the work ahead is significant.

(Discussion moves on after 23:46 to Manchester mayoral election; education content runs through ~23:46.)

Transcript

[Adam Fleming]

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[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

I remember a few weeks ago being really stunned when Alan Milburn delivered his report about the number of young people who are in neets, not in employment, education or training. And the fact that that is over 1 million people. And I think maybe we should just remind ourselves of that statistic about our country more often than we do. And we're doing that today on newscast because Andy Burnham's latest big announcement is to try and address the problem of needs. And it's doing that thing that Andy Burnham has talked about quite a lot, which is making vocational education just as serious and just as important and just as valued as more academic roots. And he's come up with a new tweak to the school system in England to try and make that a reality. And we will give you all the details and maybe some of the things that might be missed out on this

[Justine Greening]

episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Andy Burnham]

You know, I like my buses. I'll come on to.

[Adam Fleming]

I see that he Was, I guess,

[Justine Greening]

the mayor of a town.

[Advertisement Voice]

Ooh la la.

[Adam Fleming]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Shane Chowin]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Justine Greening]

And what will you do?

[Adam Fleming]

Stare at a wall. Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. And later on, we're going to be heading to Manchester to find about the by election, to find a new mayor, since Andy Burnham famously vacated that spot. But first of all, we're going to look at something that Andy Burnham says he's got a good track record on when he was mayor of Manchester, which is the doing something to address the gap between academic education and vocational training. And this big idea that he's now ruling out across the whole of England is more access to more subjects that include vocational ones at an earlier age. So I've got two people who can help me try and work out what this all means, because sometimes it can be a bit of an Alphabet soup. Joining me here in the studio is Shane Chowin, who's the editor of FE Week. FE being Further education in this case. Hello, Shane.

[Shane Chowin]

Hi.

[Adam Fleming]

Big day for you.

[Carl's Jr. Advertisement Voice]

Huge.

[Shane Chowin]

Quite a grenade to launch right before the summer break.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

True.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean, and in terms of announcements for further education, this is quite a big one, then.

[Shane Chowin]

It is quite a big one. But we've kind of been here before.

[Adam Fleming]

We've had a few big ones before,

[Shane Chowin]

had a few false starts on this parity of esteem issue over the years.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, well, we can come on to that in a second because we're also joined by Justine Greening, former Conservative Education Secretary, and she's now founder of the Purpose Coalition, which aims to improve social mobility. Hello, Justine.

[Justine Greening]

Hi, how are you doing?

[Adam Fleming]

Very well, thank you. Good to catch up. So, Shane, if we just do the details of what Andy Burnham has announced today and then we can talk about the bigger picture with Justine. So what's the. What's the layperson's version of what he's announced today?

[Shane Chowin]

So what Andy Burnham has announced today is his vision for basically from 2028, young people who are 14 years old going into year 10, when they're doing their options, will have or should have access to a wider range of technical training options alongside their core subjects English, maths and science. So the stuff that's been talked about, things like AI, manufacturing, engineering, construction, we need to build all these houses, health and social care and the sort.

[Adam Fleming]

And here is a bit of Andy Burnham announcing it while he was visiting a train factory in Derby on Tuesday morning.

[Andy Burnham]

It brings some hope to a lot of young people in this country who know the education system is not built for them. Well, now they have a Prime Minister who's saying, I am for you and I will build an education system that works for you, that treats all students coming through school as equals. The academic and the technical routes in parity, offering equal paths for all young people. And I think that brings hope to a lot of young people, to a lot of families in this country. And you can see it behind, you know, the amazing young people we've met here today.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, so, Justine, a few things I want to get your take on. So, first of all, that big thing of the parity of esteem, as Shane was describing it, so treating vocational training as well as the same way as more academic routes. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you trying to do that when you were Education Secretary, which was a little while ago?

[Justine Greening]

Yeah, well, it's a good point. I mean, I introduced the apprenticeship levy, I announced that we would be bringing in T levels. And so I do think it's a welcome step from the Prime Minister. But you're right. Over the last decade, lots of governments have sought to try to create this vocational pathway. I'd actually argue, if anything, I'd like Andy Burnham to go further and that this didn't, in a way, go far enough. I, for some time, have felt that employers need to be more involved in GCSE curriculum development. And in a sense, I still think we've got this differential between vocational education and then there's other education that's academic. Actually, we should be asking all education to be building those pathways for young people into employment. So this is a really welcome step from my perspective, from the Prime Minister, I think let's keep it going and

[Adam Fleming]

we'll talk about the involvement of business and a secretary. But, Shane, why is it giving people more options earlier might lead to more parity between the vocational and the academic route?

[Shane Chowin]

I think what Andy Burnham will have seen as Mayor of Great Manchester over the years are lots of reforms to education in the post 60s 16 space. Justine mentioned T levels, apprenticeships. He would have seen all of that happen at a 16 plus angle. And what he's done today is said, well, actually, we need to be intervening earlier, giving people choices earlier. And as Mayor of Great in Manchester, he didn't have any power to do that. He didn't control what Ofsted inspects. And part of the announcement today was that Ofsted would be doing more to hold schools to account in terms of the options that they're giving young people. He had a Convening power to bring employers around the table to get them into, you know, offer advice on the curriculum, maybe lending some staff for guest teaching and all that kind of stuff. But all that needs to be ramped up now on a, on a massive, massive scale. Yeah, our further education colleges are already full because we're in a demographic up to upturn in the number of 16 year old school leavers. So there's another announcement today announcing some more cash for extra college places because they are literally full. So if we're going to be now asking, you know, schools for, you know, to free up classrooms of 14 year olds to come and do health and social care, we need space and also teachers because we also have a chronic teacher crisis in colleges.

[Adam Fleming]

Justine, that was going to be the second thing I got your take on. As a former Education Secretary, you're picturing yourself in your office in Westminster. The Prime Minister's just made this announcement, hasn't he? Lumbered you, if you were the Education Secretary now and the entire school system in England with a whole load of extra work and a whole load of new teachers and facilities to find so that these new options can be offered as early as 14, I just would

[Justine Greening]

see it completely positively that it's long overdue.

[Adam Fleming]

Oh, you know, I'm not seeing it negatively, I'm just trying to get a sense from you of like how, how bigger challenge that is to deliver it.

[Justine Greening]

Yeah, but the challenge is always getting money out of the treasury and that's a lot easier when the Prime Minister's personally announced the strategy that you're wanting to pursue. So no, I think, I think a lot of people in the DFE will be, quite rightly, as Shane says, thinking how are we going to get around the mechanics of what we do? And there's almost two binding constraints. One is the teaching capacity and the resource behind that. And actually I think the shame will, will say introducing T levels for fe, you know, has had some real challenge. FE often needs capital investment to teach applied courses in, to like build a workshop, say. Exactly. So, so there's that piece of it that's one side, but the other piece of it is employers. And if you look at how challenging it's been for T levels to get established and take, take off, that's partly been that you need companies that will do high quality work place. What Andy Burnham will really need to focus on this is how he mobilises businesses to be part of this solution. So all of my work with the Purpose Coalition is about getting businesses to put in place social mobility strategies. How are they actually going to in a strategic way extend their opportunities into communities that don't currently have them? How are they going to really ensure that they're turbocharging careers for people already there? There's a lot of thinking out there, Adam, on how to do this, but I don't think there's a policy environment in a sense to recognize and reward companies that have got good solutions. And so I think if Burnham can get onto that landscape and that piece of this, he really will start to make an impact.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, some other ideas for him there. But Shane, there is a business element to what's actually been announced today, isn't there?

[Shane Chowin]

Yeah, huge. So local areas will decide for themselves what kind of routes 14 year olds will have access to. So there are these things called local skills improvement plans which businesses have been brought together to produce which basically say what are the needs in our area around skills? There's 39 of them around the country. I've been through them all. They're all fairly similar actually. Everywhere wants to be a sexy green skills, digital engineering, AI, AI, everywhere, all of that kind of stuff. But the idea is that local businesses will be like convened by their mayors or local leaders if there isn't a mayor with the schools, with the colleges and then between them have to work out how this stuff is going to be, how this stuff is going to be deliverable.

[Adam Fleming]

And is that things like as you were hinting at earlier, an expert or a technician or something from a business going into the school to provide the subject teaching for the 14 year olds?

[Shane Chowin]

I think in part, in part it has to be, it has to be. There are we run a story back in April where thousands of thousands of students couldn't go go to college to do a construction course because colleges didn't have enough construction teachers. The reason why we don't have enough construction teachers is because we can't pay them enough to come off site and teach that subject, especially if they're a really good builder and that's what we want teaching the next generation. So there are huge, there are still some huge sums that need to be, that need to be resolved. But also I know I said I was going to try and be positive about this, but budgets and spending reviews tend to be where arguments around parity go to die. So we'll talk again at Christmas and

[Adam Fleming]

I'll give you book because it's too expensive to, as Justine was saying, to provide the facilities or the time or the, the resources you need.

[Shane Chowin]

It's the human and the physical capital that needs to be. You need some upfront investment in that kind of stuff. Absolutely.

[Justine Greening]

But you know, that's essential. And so in a sense these are challenges but actually if we can get to grips with them finally, this is how we get the economy on track. There are thousands of businesses out there with great careers at the automotive sector literally facing a skills crisis because it can't find that pipeline of talent. So if we can invest to connect great young talent up with fantastic employers and careers, then that's a win win for absolutely all of us. So yeah, these are difficult challenges but government is there to overcome them. You know, Shane just rightly talked about the expertise in teaching. Well, we've introduced a skills and growth levy or apprenticeship levy around businesses investing money in developing talent. Actually they can probably invest time as well. What's the policy agenda around incentivizing and supporting companies to think, you know what, actually rather than personnel retiring in the next couple of years, why don't we move to a 401 scheme where they spend four days in the office or one day in college. These are the sorts of innovations now knitting together employers as part of the solution far more strategically. And that's one of the reasons why I'm doing all of my work on social mobility with the Purpose Coalition. Because I think when you introduced the apprenticeship levy as I did, you could kind of see the strategic opportunity, Adam, that this could be a much broader relationship and partnership and it just needs policymakers, I think to think big and I hope that that's what Burnham is now going to do.

[Adam Fleming]

And Shane, as we're recording this episode of newscast, there's another announcement related to this or at least the government are saying it's related to this, which is providing a sort of a bursary for people to go on and do apprenticeships. If that's been a barrier before, just explain how that's going to work.

[Shane Chowin]

So at the moment there are a in quote small number because no one's quite sure of the number of another

[Adam Fleming]

thing that the government isn't able to.

[Shane Chowin]

Exactly. The small number of families who are on universal credit who are actually financially penalized if the 16 year old in the household goes out to get an apprenticeship. Obviously we want more young people to go out and take an apprenticeship but the universal credit benefit rules are such that that counts as an extra inc income Essentially they're no longer a full time student, they're an apprentice. And so the government have resisted this up to now. Pat McFadden who's the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that looks after apprenticeships. He was asked about it specifically a few months. A few months ago and was as close to categorical as he could have been in, in ruling this out, but he's obviously been. Been lobbied. We don't know all of the details. There might be a kind of a drop in household income of about four and a half thousand pounds, which the government wants to make up through this bursary. So young people aren't disincentivised.

[Adam Fleming]

Interesting, because when you see the press release which has just dropped, it sounds much bigger because it sounds like, oh, the government's going to provide bursaries to loads of young people to encourage them to go into apprenticeships. But actually it's just for a potentially quite small number of people in a very particular circumstance with their household finances.

[Shane Chowin]

Exactly, exactly.

[Adam Fleming]

Justine, thinking back to your time in office and the introduction of T levels, looking back in that period, are you thinking, oh, there is other stuff I should have done, there is a way I could have won round the treasury to get some more money or there was something about our politics at the time that held me back. Basically. I'm trying to. A fancy question about regrets.

[Justine Greening]

I have zero regrets, Adam, actually, sorry to say that. No, because I think we cracked on with the apprenticeship levy and landed that, dare I say, even though it had a government system that had to work effectively, which always raises red flags in any Secretary of State mind, I think we were completely right to crack on with T levels. And I actually remember being in a meeting with Philip Hammond and Theresa May where I was evangelizing about how important I felt vocational education was for both the economy and social mobility, always seeing some sort of a penny drop. So I think it's been a journey. I think what we haven't had maybe until now, we'll see is the ambition around just how fundamental this is. In a sense, you almost need three things for this to work. I think one is just high quality routes, whether it's vocational, academic or something that sits over that. I still think, for what it's worth, I think there's a third route we need that isn't vocational, isn't academic, which is entrepreneurship. There's loads of young people who want to start their own business. There is still no pathway for somebody who has an amazing idea and wants to get on with it and they're in education, but I'm sure we can get to that.

[Advertisement Voice]

You need.

[Justine Greening]

So you need that, you need great. You need great advice for people to make great choices. You know, I always said I never met a lawyer growing up in Rotherham. I had never really seriously considered going into law. So I think the more choices, especially earlier in life, that you give people, the more advice and support they need. I grew up in a house of work. I just never knew it. I didn't meet anyone who had a career. If you'd asked me to define a career, I would have said it was a job where you were likely to get a promotion. But I didn't know anyone who was in a family doing those kinds of jobs. I just knew that I wanted one like that when I got a bit older. And then I think the third thing that is really interesting, and I'm sure Shane will relate to this, is if we're moving, we've moved into an era of people are going to be changing jobs, AI is going to be changing careers and work. You almost need this concept of interoperability where even if you say, pick up 14 and think, hey, I'm going to go into the automotive sector, actually most of these sectors have a whole variety of completely different careers. You can start, you know, in automotive, but. But fine, it can end up being a tech career, it can end up being a marketing career, you can go into finance. All of these different sectors have a whole range of careers. The key is making sure that whatever choices you're making at 14, 16, 18, it unlocks and opens doors for you in future life rather than closing them down. And so there are some principles, in a sense, that really matter. And I've said employers are crucial in getting them to see this bigger picture. But I remember doing a dinner with some Northwest business leagues in Manchester. I think it would have been early this year. I was really impressed at how strategically they thought as a pack, in terms of the talent the region needed, what that meant for them as businesses. And I think maybe our new Prime Minister has seen how businesses can work collectively, powerfully, and that's what we need to see across a wider country now.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Shane, that picks up on Andy Burnham's work in Manchester, which is crystallized in this thing called the ambac. Manchester Baccalaureate. I've never really honestly understood what that was. I understood where it fits in the branding and I know what it's the sort of the elements to. But I'd never quite cohered in my mind what was off on offer there.

[Shane Chowin]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, really, the, the success of the mbac, which is, for all intents and purposes, it is about. It is about branding. It's about packaging up a set of courses into his, his me as the Mayor of Manchester, telling you what I think you would you should do to thrive in this, in this area. But the real, the real success for me of the MBAC has been the way in which it's brought various stakeholders together to actually have a conversation about the kind of 14 plus education route. Because it was, it was very well positioned as a, this isn't better than academic and going to university, but it's just another option that will get you to, for in a place where you could have a, have a good life. And for me it was as much

[Adam Fleming]

about clarifying what's available and what the options are and where they could lead to rather than coming up with a whole load of new subjects or teaching in schools.

[Shane Chowin]

Exactly, exactly. But that was, that was very carefully managed where. So there is a danger and a risk with what Andy Burnham announced today where, you know, we, we proclaim parity of esteem, but there isn't necessarily like parity of choice that comes along with it. So, you know, you can, you can see a scenario in, you know, five or six years time where, you know, the, all the progress that's been made on widening access to university goes backwards. You know, we have lots of qualified but unemployed young.

[Adam Fleming]

Maybe the government wants areas go backwards a bit because they want fewer people going to university.

[Shane Chowin]

It might, it might well do and it would be a very brave politician to actually come out and say that. But again, gets to the heart of the, of the parity of esteem issue. You know, what, what, what do schools put on their website if they don't say we have X number of students going to a Russell Group university? Do they say, we've trained X number of plumbers, builders? Would that have the same pull and draw on their marketing efforts? You know, so that's, those are the kinds of conversations around accountability, school accountability, Ofsted school league tables, performance tables, all those sorts of things, which I actually think is quite exciting.

[Adam Fleming]

And Justine, one last question for you, that's on another topic. Lucy Powell, the Secretary of State for Education now. So your successor Plus 10 has been on 5 Live with Matt Chorley saying that she thinks that the student loan system is egregious and while she cannot make any promises, student loans need looking at. You were there when the system was being created and bedded in. What's your take on it?

[Justine Greening]

I was there when it had bedded in and I went into the DFE and said, is it heresy or is this is inherently unstable and needs to be reformed. And the answer to me at the time was, yes, it is heresy. But nevertheless, if you want to Google Justine Greening Higher Education Fund, you'll see an article I wrote back in 2018 where I propose how we can update tuition fees and higher education funding. If only we had been able to have the ambition then, if only Parliament actually had been more tuned into some of these issues, I think we'd be in a much, much better place now than we actually are. And there's a little bit this around Parliament getting ahead of these sorts of issues. I could see back in 2017, 2016, that the current approach on tuition fees had sufficient political flaws that it wouldn't last forever. My attitude then was we need to get ahead of this because we shouldn't be reforming when we reach a crisis. But nearly 10 years later we've got to exactly what I worried we would do and now we're having to reform in a crisis. But I'm really happy to work with Lucy and anyone else on some of those ideas that I set up back then.

[Adam Fleming]

Sorry I did not Google your entire back catalogue before the interview, but glad we've got up to date now. But also just, just. But just back on that point about Parliament being behind the curve, basically. If there had been the cohort of MPs, there are now, lots of whom have massive student loans. Five or 10 years earlier, you reckon the system would have been reformed by now. And actually it was the problem not being visible enough to the mps of the day.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Justine Greening]

And that's not good enough, is it? Why should Parliament have to literally have people facing the crisis themselves as MPs before it actually is able to act? This is the whole problem. It's crisis management. We're having a discussion about policies, quite rightly, I think announced by Andy Burnham, but we've reached a crisis on needs. This is precisely why I genuinely was passionate about social mobility being part of this, this overriding mission for the DfE. We have to have a version of politics in Britain that gets ahead of these problems and is. Is looking into the future around, around the corner politically to, to stop problems from crystallizing rather than simply just reacting to them once it's already happened, that people deserve better and they deserve a version of Parliament. I think that is looking ahead, not just comment, not almost like a commentariat on things that have already gone wrong.

[Adam Fleming]

We shall see. Justine, thank you very much.

[Justine Greening]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

And Shane, good to meet you too.

[Shane Chowin]

Thank you.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

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[Adam Fleming]

Now, talking of Greater Manchester, on Thursday, hundreds of thousands of people will go to the polls to elect Andy Burnham's replacement as the mayor of Greater Manchester. So we thought we would reunite our friends from byle action cast. So joining us now down the line is Sarah Lester, editor of the Manchester Evening News. Hello, Sarah.

[Sarah Lester]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

And Kevin Fitzpatrick, political reporter for BBC NorthWest and radio Manchester. Hello again, Kevin.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Hi, how are you?

[Adam Fleming]

Very well, thank you. Now, before we dive into the by election for the mayor, Sarah, what's the goss about number 10 north?

[Sarah Lester]

There's lots of ghosts about number 10 north, most of which I can't say here.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, do the news goss rather than the goss.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Goss.

[Sarah Lester]

Yeah, it's. Well, if you're in Manchester, it's great. It's great. I think it's going to become perhaps a bit of a Friday tourist attraction because looking at the crowds that were there and the, you know, the, the color from the day outside, I don't know whether you were there, but day outside for our journalists was fascinating with weddings taking place and, you know, an occasional drunk person lumbering past. And it was, it was absolutely fascinating. But on more seriously, I think it's just really good and I know it has its detractors, but I think it's really important for people to see power in their area and it heralds a seriousness about the desire to shift power into the regions. I personally think it's much more than a gimmick, although, of course the proof will be in how, what decisions are actually taken up here, what meetings are and how often he comes up here as well.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, yeah, Cassera, I was going to ask you must have seen a lot of photo Ops that actually were just that and people trying to sort of pay lip service to being in the north or dropping in to have a Cabinet meeting in the north. Did this feel more substantial than some of those old ones?

[Sarah Lester]

It felt more serious. And the players that are there and the kind of non politicians that are there, a lot of whom we know because of their background in Manchester, they're serious players. So it feels like a much more serious enterprise. I mean, we've, we've stopped going to. And the vast majority of photo calls where somebody just wants to show that they've been through a northern town once. Whereas this does feel different and quite hopeful and quite interesting and quite. And, and it's entertaining in some ways as well, certainly for the crowds. I think the. My understanding is that the police put up barriers because they weren't sure if anybody would come and then loads of people come. So I've got a feeling it might be like a nice Friday afternoon, sunny afternoon, little pastime for people.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, go and see if you can get a glimpse of the pm.

[Sarah Lester]

Yeah, perhaps.

[Adam Fleming]

Interesting. And Kevin, what was it like for you on Friday?

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Yep. Well, I was there in Albert Square for, for a period and there was a huge police presence. There was a few people questioning the cost of it, really, because he came in the back, they were having to shut roads and there was police around the whole time. But Andy Burnham answered that because he was kind of aware that the criticism was going to come not just about the cost of him traveling up here, but the cost of the police operation. And he said, well, how much does it cost for everybody up here to go down to London every week? But it did strike me, I was stood in Albert Square and the town hall, the Manchester, the council town hall is just across that square and in between the two buildings, I could look up and look through the windows of the big room where back in 2016, I think it was, George Osborne came up as Chancellor and all the leaders around here signed the first devolution agreement that ended up getting them the mayor, which clearly has led to the process where Andy Burnham described it as the best day of his life to see this power potentially. He hopes he intends, doesn't he, to be transferred up to the city. So it was a nice juxtaposition, really. I looked in one room and looked across to the other building and thought, right, well, things really have moved significantly in the last decade.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, that's number 10 north. Let's dive into the election then to find a new mayor for Greater Manchester. Sarah, just give US the context so

[Sarah Lester]

this is a really big deal for us. So great. Manchester three million people. Burnham's replacement in the run of us and riders the favorite is Bev Craig who is a well respected leader of Manchester City Council. Really interesting character. She's very effective got good, good history of delivery clever has nowhere near the profile of Burnham and has a bit interesting. She's been making campaign videos running and doing a lot of the kind of Burnham style campaign videos because her profile was not anywhere near where Burnham was. She's an interesting character. She came. She's from Belfast she came over here at 18 knew no one, no friends, nothing and now is standing for mayor. She's been quite influential to Burnham over his career I think particularly the latter bit since she's been leader of the last few years she was deputy mayor and has I think been quite an influence so she's obviously the favorite there I do we. We had a story of the week revealing that kissed armored wanted her to stand in Gorton and Denton but she hadn't wanted to that she saw her future here and also I think didn't want to do his dirty work either so that. That's Bev. So probably the main rival is Sign Astley who's a really interesting candidate she's from Roman Reform what we found is that the focus with everything that's going with Farage the focus has really shifted to Clapton so I don't think the ground operation it doesn't feel like anywhere has been what we expected it to be. She's a different sort of candidates the make field reform candidate she's more media savvy she caught. She's not a politician in the way that. That he wasn't She's a landlord, she's got TV background she was a presenter very personable she's quite reasonably well known in the area and she's had a decent campaign bit of controversy some of social media post where she suggested that green politicians should be made to house rapists if they're not happy with the reform immigration perspective. So that was kind of. Kind of the. The most interesting that happened around. Around her I think the.

[Advertisement Voice]

The.

[Sarah Lester]

The other candidate of interest is Geraldine Coggins who's from a Trafford councillor I should have said actually Cyan is a Manchester councillor as well a new one but Geraldine Coggins is a Trafford councillor she's highly educated philosopher I think background we did a hustings and she was a really strong performer we did a football player style ratings afterwards and she actually won on that the Greens are kind of trying to create a narrative that they're the only ones to stop reform, but that does not bear out in the polls at all. So we think Bev is likely to. Is likely to win. We'll talk about. Presumably you'll ask me in a bit about the voting system because it's slightly different for this election. But she.

[Adam Fleming]

But you know what, that's what I was going to ask Kevin was that actually we all have had quite a lot of experience of watching elections in the Northwest in the last few months because of the Makerfield by election and Gorton and Denton. But actually we shouldn't just take the lessons and the experiences from those Westminster by elections for constituencies and apply them to just the bigger scale of Greater Manchester, should we?

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

No. And Greater Manchester is a hugely varied place and while you can pick certainly things out of the local elections back in May, where Reform did particularly well, but they did well across the north of Greater Manchester in particular. You can take some lessons from Garton and Denton, where the Greens swept a victory, didn't they, in kind of that part of central Manchester with big diverse communities. And also they did quite well in the local elections in kind of the southern areas. So you take your lessons from them and we end up with a battle between Green and Reform, don't we? And Labour really are on the ropes. But then you look at the Makerfield by election and Burnham sweeps to victory there, beating Reform comprehensively. And with the. The story of him now returning to Parliament, heading into Downing street in the way that he has and the boost that appears to have given the Labour Party, it really is tricky to kind of pin any of those scenarios onto this, onto this Merrill by election. And in terms of the voting system, it's not first past the poll here this time, it's supplementary vote. It was supplementary vote for the first two mayoral elections in Greater Manchester at the third. By that point the Conservative government had brought first past the post in. But it never mattered anyway because Andy Burnham was winning all of those elections with 60 and 70% of the vote. He was winning the majority in every single ward in the 10 boroughs. However, at this election, the expectation is that nobody is going to get 50% of the vote on the first round of voting. And that is where the supplementary vote, the second choices that people have would kick in. And that's why it could be really important if people decide to use the second vote, but also who they choose to vote for with that.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. And Sarah, how are you then sort of war Gaming that, that voting system in your head for when it comes to the last few days of the campaign and also the first day of the results.

[Sarah Lester]

So the results are Friday, not overnight, sadly, as I love an overnight count. They're sort of lunched. We expect mid afternoon on Friday. I be surprised if bev gets. You need 50 that 50 to win. So I think it will, the second vote will count. If I was betting on it, I'd probably say, you know, Bev Craig would, would do it then would just about do it. But it's by no means nothing's certain ever in an election. I think there will be an issue over, you know, turnout. Turnout's always been around 30 odd percent and one of the things we found whilst out talking to people is a lack of an awareness of this election around Greater Manchester and actually it could be one of the most influential, you know, in terms of impacting directly on people's lives. It's hugely significant. But turnout could potentially be quite low and some people didn't even quite understand what they were voting for even though they were trying to vote. So we're spending a lot of time trying to explain to people the voting system and what they are voting for in making sure we're interviewing every candidate.

[Adam Fleming]

But Sarah, do you have a theory at not getting you to psychoanalyze or speak for every single voting age citizens in the Patch, but do you have a theory for why people are still not sure what's going on even though there's been wall to wall coverage on the news and not even on the news elsewhere of the Mayor of Greater Manchester becoming the Prime Minister?

[Sarah Lester]

Well, you don't want to get deep into this but I do think we've got a problem with education around democracy and for kids and actually I don't think we talk enough about how our country runs and a lot of people just switch off from news. So some people think that, oh well it's Labours because it's Manchester, so I won't vote, which is probably not, not by no means a dead cert. So maybe there's an element of that and some people are battling their lives and cost of living and are kind of apathetic to the fact that politicians can make a difference. Obviously Andy Burnham did cut through that and it's probably worth saying actually that although he's not part of with this election, he sort of looms large over it in that certainly during our hostings and during all the other hostings, the conversations between the candidates, the record of Labour in greater Manchester has been challenged by the non Labour candidates. You know, obviously there's this great success story that Great Manchester is growing economically when the rest of the country isn't. That's great. But there is a view that that has enabled the city center and it hasn't trickled down to some of the towns and villages around Greater Manchester. And the issue around left behind communities and rough sleeping, which is obviously very salient because of what Annie Burnham said about wanting to end it. It hasn't ended in Great Manchester. So those are the arguments that have been talked about and, and I do think, you know, that depiction of a kind of Northern utopia is, is ripe for challenge because we, you know, we still have, was it 28, I think of our kids are growing up in poverty in Great Manchester. And those issues which actually the mayor doesn't necessarily have control over all of them. Cost of living, those issues have been right at the fore of the conversations. Housing has been there as well. And the difference between, well, rich and poor in our patch has been a, a really, really key issue. So Burnham's record has loomed large and of course Bev is regarded as the sitting candidate. And so what she's been very clear on is that she wants to go much further. And of course it's fair to say, I think that Andy Burnham's recognized the limitations of the, the mayoral role and that's why he's looking at more fiscal devolution, isn't he, in into the regions giving mers more power because he found that there was only so much he could do or he would say that, I think.

[Adam Fleming]

And, and Kevin, that's some of the issues that have cropped up on the campaign trail and in the hustings. Have there been any actual stories? Because I haven't really seen any kind of classic election stories around this election.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

They haven't really. None have jumped out. And I think partly because the media has been so dominated by what's been going on down at Westminster that, that this, this election hasn't had the attention that it perhaps would have. The Green Party have been trying to push lines quite strongly criticizing the Labour Party some of the things Andy Burnham's been saying and trying to turn that into a story locally. Reform have been, you know, criticizing quite a few, a few elements of, of what Andy Burnham's done and again trying to jump on perhaps the attention that Andy Burnham's been getting and reflect that on the situation here in Greater Manchester. But as Sarah says, a real theme has been that comparison with what Andy Burnham did and, and how. A big question for all the candidates really is, are you going to carry on doing what Andy was doing? Are you going to expand or intensify some of his key projects, or are you going to scale some of them back? And I think the big themes that have come out, we've been saying, rather than at the local elections and the general elections, what are the issues that kind of matter to you? And often it's been cost of living. We've been saying, right, well, you know, the mayor has these specific powers over public transport, strategic planning and housing, about supporting the economy. What would you want your mayor to do with those powers? And we've also been asking those specific questions of the candidates. And on public transport, you know, you've got labor, you've got the Greens, you've got the Lib Dems wanting to expand the free bus travel that has been very popular with 16 to 18 year olds. Under Andy Burnham, the Conservatives, they're saying, well, we need to review that. You know, we don't know we can still afford these freebies. And then a big diversion in numbers of houses that, the promising to build and how they would, how they would make that happen. And then another big question that's come up with all the candidates is this idea that Manchester's done very well and when we talk about Manchester booming, really, we're talking about the city centre and the, the rest of Greater Manchester needs a lot more support than it has got previously. And under Andy Burnham, only last November they launched what they called a good growth fund. And this was 30 projects, three projects, economic projects aimed at boosting the local economies in each of the 10 boroughs. And the money was being provided from within Greater Manchester to kickstart those. So a question for them all has been, well, are you going to carry on with that? And they're all saying yes. And then obviously they've all got their own plans for how they would try and boost the high streets, which are feeling a little unloved at the moment.

[Adam Fleming]

So interesting. And we look forward to hearing what the result is, as Sarah was saying on Friday afternoon. Sarah, thank you very much. Thank you, Kevin. Thanks to you too.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

And I will see both of you for a pint in the slug and lettuce when I finally get to visit number 10 North. Because of course that is the pub that's on the ground floor, isn't it?

[Sarah Lester]

It is. Looking forward to it.

[Adam Fleming]

And you know what I'm going to do now? I'm going to read out a list of all the candidates who are standing in the by election to become mayor of Greater Manchester. For Reform uk, there's Cyan Astley. For the Green Party, it's Geraldine Coggins. Bev Craig is standing for Labour. Phil Eckersley is standing for the Conservatives. There's an independent called Marcus Farmer. The Liberal Democrats have fielded Richard Kilpatrick. And Restore Britain are represented by Marlon West. And that full list is also available on the BBC News website. And a reminder of our new challenge, your hundred days. What are you seeking to achieve? Big, small or in between? In andy Burnham's first 100 days as Prime Minister, we're taking that classic political trope and turning it over to you. And we've had an amazing email that says, during Prime Minister Burnham's first hundred days, my goal is to add to his support of the pub trade by visiting the pub as often as possible. Unexpected early retirement makes this an easier task than it was previously. And this email is signed off by Keir S. Which is amazing, because, yeah, that does sound like what's just happened to Keir Starmer, but it's actually from a newscaster called Keir whose surname starts with an S. Who isn't Keir Starmer? Funny old world. Anyway, keep your suggestions and entries for your 100 days coming to newscastbc.co.uk or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I'll be back with another newscast very soon.

[BBC Reporter / Presenter]

Bye bye.

[Adam Fleming]

Newscast.

[Justine Greening]

Newscast from the BBC. Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast cast. You clearly ooze stamina.

[Adam Fleming]

Can I gently encourage you to subscribe

[Justine Greening]

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