Are Britain's 'Brexit Years’ Over?

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Newscast – "Are Britain’s ‘Brexit Years’ Over?"

Date: February 15, 2026
Hosts: Paddy O’Connell, Laura Kuenssberg, Joe Pike
Guests/Featured: Dr. Hilary Cass

---

Episode Overview

This episode of the BBC’s Newscast dissects the biggest UK news stories—focusing on whether Britain’s “Brexit years” are truly behind it, the political climate surrounding the Labour Party, new revelations over Prince Andrew’s tenure as trade envoy, and an in-depth conversation with Dr. Hilary Cass regarding youth gender care. The hosts guide listeners through the interlinked themes of geopolitics, party machinations, scandal, and social policy—often with trademark banter and insight.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

1. Britain’s Post-Brexit Identity & Security (03:17–10:38)

• The team analyze Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s remarks at the Munich Security Conference, where he declared the UK must be “ready for war” and notably stated, “We are not the Britain of the Brexit years anymore.”
• Discussion centers around what this means both for foreign policy—especially the UK's role in European security—and the domestic political messaging aimed at reframing the country as outward-looking and cooperative.

Key Quotes:

• Laura Kuenssberg:

  “He [Starmer] said it could be a time of rupture, but instead it must be a time of creation of a new European NATO. And Europe has to step up because America has changed its position.” (03:41)

• Fatboy Slim [Clip of Keir Starmer]:

  “We are not the Britain of the Brexit years anymore… in a dangerous world, we would not take control by turning inward. We would surrender it. And I won't let that happen.” (05:03–05:18)

• Analysis of Starmer’s attempt to “show more ankle” to Europe, and how this might expose him to accusations from rivals (Reform, Conservatives) that he is betraying the Brexit mandate.
• Joe Pike opines that the PM is both encouraging European defense integration and sending a message to the US about European commitment to security:

  “He wants to send a message to European nations who are big defense nations, that the militaries will work together… but also, this is, perhaps, a message for the US as well…” (08:41)

• Laura and Joe reflect on the enduring emotional and political aftershocks from Brexit, and how the process of “unplugging and potentially re-plugging” with Europe still dominates discussion a decade later. (07:01–07:56)
• The panel notes the increase in foreign policy's role in domestic politics.

---

2. Labour Party Turbulence & Internal Investigations (10:38–19:32)

• New front-page reports focus on “Labour Together,” a think tank pivotal to Starmer’s rise, which failed to report over £700,000 in donations—described as an “admin error.”
• The Labour Together think tank reportedly commissioned PR firm APCO Worldwide to investigate journalists, going as far as scrutinizing their religion and relationships, and speculating about a “Russian conspiracy”—actions described as abnormal and potentially “spooky.”
• Discussion on mounting calls for Labour’s internal transparency and the new government minister’s involvement (Josh Simons) prior to entering Parliament.

Notable Quotes:

• Paddy O’Connell, on the think tank’s actions:

  “Naming journalists as people of significant interest, which is just kind of spooky and… it's not a great look if you're a libertarian, free speech-loving party of the left…” (16:52)

• Laura Kuenssberg:

  “It’s not something that is normal or standard behaviour as far as we know in British politics.” (17:10)

• Joe Pike:

  “This report claimed that Gabriel Pogren and one of his colleagues could have been part of a Russian conspiracy… even though there’s absolutely no evidence of that.” (18:48)

---

3. Prince Andrew, Epstein, and UK Trade Envoy Claims (19:32–20:47)

• New email evidence allegedly ties Prince Andrew, while serving as the UK’s trade envoy, to Epstein and his associates, with calls for an investigation from political leaders like Vince Cable and Rachel Maskell.
• Point made that trade envoys have access to government documents, lending seriousness to the allegations, although Andrew continues to deny wrongdoing.

Notable Quotes:

• Laura Kuenssberg:

  “A trade envoy essentially is part of the government... they’re doing government’s business… that’s a really interesting and an important allegation.” (20:09)

---

4. Interview with Dr. Hilary Cass: Gender Care for Young People (21:19–28:36)

• Dr. Cass, author of a major NHS review on gender identity services, discusses the fallout from her work and the impact of recent government guidance for schools.
• She emphasizes that the polarizing adult debate has “weaponised” children, echoing the need for calm, evidence-based discourse.

Key Moments and Quotes:

• Dr. Hilary Cass:

  “Children have been weaponised… by people at the extremes. The vast number of people in the middle are silent, but it’s the people at the extremes who really have, I think, caused quite a lot of distress for young people.” (22:33)

• Laura Kuenssberg, reading Cass’s explanation:

  “The majority of kids who come forward with questions about their gender essentially grow out of it. And I just thought that was really notable because I cannot imagine almost anybody in public life being that candid and clear…” (25:27)

• Discussion highlights the sharp rise in referrals—from 50 to 3,500 per year.
• Cass stresses the importance of rigorous clinical trials for puberty blockers, advocating for careful monitoring:

  “There is no evidence puberty blockers are irreversible… these children are going to be monitored like nowhere else in the NHS…” (26:52)

• She notes improvement in services since her review, and the anxiety among clinicians prior to clear guidance.

---

5. Political Week Ahead & Light-Hearted Closing (29:17–30:47)

• Parliament will be in recess, so no major developments expected; a brief tongue-in-cheek exchange about personal weekend plans and the unpredictability of the news cycle.

Notable Quotes:

• Laura Kuenssberg:

  “We can't dress this up any other way. You've tuned to one of the biggest news offerings of the BBC at the weekend and we don't know what's happening next week.” (30:26)

---

Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Keir Starmer’s “not the Britain of the Brexit years anymore” speech: 05:03–05:18
• Laura on ‘tickling the bellies’ of European diplomats: 07:56
• Dr. Cass on weaponisation of children in the debate: 22:33–23:20
• Discussion of Labour Together’s “admin error” and PR firm spying on journalists: 15:38–17:10
• Hosts’ comedic banter over previewing the week: 30:01–30:26

---

Tone & Language

• The tone oscillates between insightful, analytical, and conversational, capturing moments of both seriousness (on foreign policy and social care) and levity (studio banter, closing remarks).
• The hosts maintain a direct, sometimes wry style with accessible explanations for listeners.

---

Summary

This Newscast episode delivers a brisk yet substantial overview of the UK’s evolving stance within Europe post-Brexit, internal Labour Party controversies, a fresh look at the Prince Andrew saga, and an unusually candid interview on the state of gender care for children. Listeners receive a clear window into both the high drama and quieter complexities at the heart of British politics and society, delivered in a manner that’s as engaging as it is informative.

---

Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

If you can't keep up with all the Epstein news, you're not alone. This week, the files have nearly, but not quite brought down a British Prime Minister. There have been allegations that Epstein was a spy and surprising countries have been drawn into the scandal. From Norway to Poland to Israel to France. It's a lot. So we're recapping all the main developments and making sense of them. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

You're looking at me strangely, Patrick, because.

[Paddy O'Connell]

How do we sum up Sunday's journalism? The best of broadcast, the best of print, the best of online. Should we try it in three words? War, Labour.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That works in two different ways, doesn't it?

[Paddy O'Connell]

And Andrew.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

There we go. We did it. Well done.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So, on war, Keir Starmer's been at the Munich Security Conference and he says.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We should be ready for war, which sounds quite an alarming thing to say to the country. So we'll hear today what the Foreign Secretary tells us that he actually meant.

[Paddy O'Connell]

On Labour, labor, there are is still.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Behind closed doors arguing amongst itself about whether or not the Prime Minister is the right man for the job. And there are various bits of jockeying for position.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes, with the Defence Secretary mentioned for the first time.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, that's been knocking around a bit. But that links war and politics, care and Labour, doesn't it? We're making all sorts of links here.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And there's also a story about Labour together, a lobby group to get them all elected.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes. Getting into a bit of a pickle over what appears to be, according to the Sunday Times, some rather unorthodox behavior.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And there are fresh claims about Andrew's time when he was prince as UK trade envoy.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And number four, if I may afford, three words, Dr. Hilary Cass, the author of what was a very significant review into the treatment of children and young people who are questioning their gender. We've spoken to her for the program and I think it's a really worthwhile conversation to have because in very calm tones, which are unusual in that whole debate, she explains some of her views on how often kids will have lifelong issues with gender, how they've been let down by adults in this debate and whether or not they've been misled by what they see online.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So, four subjects to get to grips.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

With in Sunday's newscast, newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[Fatboy Slim]

Fat Boy Slim and me in the.

[Joe Pike]

Classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Dr. Hilary Cass]

I was the tattletale in the class.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I have an apology?

[Fatboy Slim]

Please, I trust almost nobody that daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Next time in the mosque. I feel dulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downing Street.

[Joe Pike]

Let's go have a tour.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Blimey.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's Laura in the studio. And might I say a belated Happy Valentine's Day to you. And to you.

[Joe Pike]

Hi, it's Joe pike also in the studio, Loved up on news.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

You both look really uncomfortable that I said that. I just meant it in like a friendly way.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I think you might be telling the newscaster that we're together.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm just being friendly.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's. Well, it's a good start. I mean, it's a lot more interesting than things I had prepared. So, look, let's get to grips with what accounts for the news agenda on a Sunday. There is some moving parts. One of them is this business of the whole geopolitical arena. And there's been a giant conference in Munich. It's held every year. It's called the Security Conference. And the Prime Minister's been saying some big headline grabbing things.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

He really has. I mean, he's told the country that we should be ready for war. He said that it is, you know, the new reality. He said it could be a time of rupture, but instead it must be a time of creation of a new European NATO. And Europe has to step up because America has changed its position. And everybody knows. They heard it at the Munich conference last year. They heard it as soon as Donald Trump walked into the White House. We've talked about again and again on newscast that this White House thinks that Europe must do much more for itself. It can no longer rely on American protection for its own security. But it was also interesting, Joe, that the Prime Minister chose to present this as not just a security defense kind of thing, but also a move in politics at home. He said Britain is not the Britain of the Brexit years anymore. Let's just have a listen to what he said.

[Fatboy Slim]

This is how we'll build a better future for our continent, true to the vibrant, free and diverse societies that we represent. Showing that people who look different to each other can live peacefully together, that this isn't against the tenor of our times. Rather, it's what makes us strong as we're prepared to defend it with everything that we have.

[Dr. Hilary Cass]

Now.

[Fatboy Slim]

We are not the Britain of the Brexit years anymore because we know.

[Joe Pike]

And.

[Fatboy Slim]

That is because we know that in a dangerous world, we would not take control by turning inward. We would surrender it. And I won't let that happen. That's why I devote time as Prime Minister to. To Britain's leadership on the world stage. And that's why I'm here today, because I am clear there is no British security without Europe and no European security without Britain. That is the lesson of history and is today's reality as well.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So he's speaking in an echoey chamber in two senses, because that's a message that the people at that conference are hearing all the time. They like that message. They do got very grumpy when the American Vice President said something different last year, telling them all off. So he's got the right audience, but actually when we consume that back home, is he telling us, ah, we're going to get closer to the eu?

[Joe Pike]

I think he might be. Integration is in our interests. And what he was nodding towards there, Paddy, was not something that dissimilar from the argument Rachel Reeves has been recently making with economic justification. Her saying this week the biggest prize for Britain's growth comes through deeper integration with the eu. And of course, those within the Cabinet and other senior politicians in Labour, especially those perhaps who see a leadership contest in the future, are also leaning into the idea of a close relationship, partly because, of course, Labour members, it seems like the idea of being closer to you.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I mean, 10 years after the referendum, we're still working out our place with Europe. It's exhausting to newscasters.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think that's right, because. But it tells you, though, actually how big a deal Brexit was. Right. It was unplugging the country from decades and decades and decades of legal cooperation, economic cooperation, defense cooperation, social polysocial cooperation, all sorts of things. And, you know, politicians at the time, if we cast our mind back then, they were all rhetorically very open about how big a deal it would be, either positively or. Or negatively. But I don't think anybody really had the sort of almost, you know, emotional expectation, if you like, that. The politics of unpicking it all and all the arguments about unpicking it all and now the arguments about how much of it you might want to plug back in. Well, this is which so completely consume our political conversation. You know, 10 years later, the Prime Minister is invoking that and, you know, tickling the bellies of a load of European diplomats who by their applause.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Tell you that they thought it was all a terrible idea.

[Dr. Hilary Cass]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But it is interesting and I think also it's not without risk for the Prime Minister, actually, if we just think narrowly about Keir Starmer, you know, showing a bit more ankle to the rest of the eu, that's not without risk, because here some of his rivals reform, and the Tories, when he says things like that, they immediately will accuse him of saying, ah, well, you're just going to give back control. This is surrender. You're tipping back. You're trying to UN you know, you're trying to kind of UN undermine what people voted for all those years ago. But I think, Joe, I was trying to find out from Yvette Cooper this morning what he really meant when he was talking about defense, because he wasn't just talking about the economy, he was also talking about doing more collectively. He used words like solidarity and collective action. So what do you think the Prime Minister is really trying to drive at?

[Joe Pike]

I think he wants to send a message to European nations who are big defense nations, that the militaries will work together, although not in that much of an integrated way, because all the research and expertise we've heard on this issue suggests that actually armies cannot integrate too closely together on small operations. But also, this is, isn't it perhaps a message for the US as well? Yes, he's saying something that will keep the Europeans happy. But by showing that we, European nations are committed to working together, bolstering our defence spending more, we're feeding into what Donald Trump sees as one of his big successes, which is forcing spending to go up for NATO countries.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And we should also say there's already lots of joint working. You know, it's Britain and France particularly, who've been working together on the plans for what might be called a reassurance force, if there's ever a peace deal in Ukraine, there are already lots of sort of joint operations, and more and more countries have been doing things like developing new weapon systems together. So this is something that's sort of happening already. But it is interesting, I think, that Keir Starmer wants to really push this as a political message. And also I thought Paddy really justifying himself being there at all and reform and others have sort of raised an eyebrow. And the Prime Minister sort of using that platform, a sort of diplomatic platform, to send a message that's about his own political problems at home, because he said, well, this is why I'm here as Prime Minister. This is why I devote time on the world stage. He also suggested if reform and the Greens are allowed to get their hands on the levers of power, then, and I quote, the lamps would go out all over Europe. Now Newscasters being the smart bunch they are, many of them may remember that's a quote that was from the eve of World War I. So essentially, the Prime Minister saying, if you vote for people other than me, then you might find yourselves in a global conflict which, not surprisingly, reform and the Greens have really pushed back very hard against.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And we've recently changed. Foreign Secretary, you had her on the program because there's a lot going on with how Europe appears to the rest of the world. Weak is one version of how it appears. There are some European countries still buying fuel from Russia, and there are some that have to be dragged towards the defence spending targets that we know about. So you had Yvette Cooper on, and she's got to be the sort of domestic facing and the world facing voice of Labour's policy. How did she nail down what more solidarity with Europe looks like?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I'm not sure we got that far, to be honest. I mean, we tried to press her on that issue and say, okay, what does it mean? She said things like, well, joint working. Joint working in various different ways.

[Joe Pike]

No European army, though.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No European army. When I put that to her, yeah, she was quite careful to underline that's not what it meant, that that used to be, didn't it? One of the things that politicians on the right would hurl accusations about. Terrible idea of a European joint army. But she talked a lot about joint working and partnerships and collective action. In terms of specifics, I'm not sure that we learned a huge amount during our interview, despite our best efforts. I think, though, what's interesting is, you know, it's just really, really more clear than ever. The discussion about what's happening around the rest of the world is a part of our politics, will be a part of our normal politics for a long time to come. And that just wasn't always the case. You know, we used to go weeks and weeks and weeks covering politics in Westminster without ever talking about foreign affairs. You know, maybe we. Maybe we ought to have done, but it's just part of the bread and butter of politics now in a way that it just didn't used to be.

[Joe Pike]

And it helps Keir Starmer as well, potentially. Right. This was an opportunity for him to try and reshape the narrative after a difficult week. He's seen as stronger on foreign affairs. Also, he can frame himself as this statesman in times of instability. Do we need another Labour leadership fight? And do you think the pretenders to my throne are people who could do what I can on the world stage? And Also use the fact he has this Prime Ministerial world hailer in Munich to criticise his political rivals, especially the new ones.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think there's still a political problem for them, though. We did press Yvette Cooper on this this morning. They keep saying we've got to spend more on defence, we've got to be ready for war, bad things might be coming down the track and we need to be able to deter the threats. But the government has still not told us how they're going to pay for all of this extra defence spending after 2028. We also spoke to Patel, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, this morning, and she said that the government ought to be calling in the Russian ambassador after the UK government, alongside other governments yesterday, said that the Kremlin was responsible for the assassination of Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader, and that he had been poisoned by a toxin from a frog. I mean, the most extraordinary, hideous detail in a sort of John le Carre truth, stranger than fiction horror show of that man who was a brave opposition politician killed in a Russian jail. But Yvette Cooper again didn't give us any specific actions that they might take. She talked again about ratcheting up sanctions, taking action with other countries, but she didn't agree with the Conservative suggestion that at the very least, the Russian ambassador in the UK should be summoned to the Foreign Office to receive a dressing down. Because if you remember Salisbury, that attack on British soil, at that point, dozens of diplomats actually right around the world were thrown out. Dozens of Russian diplomats were kicked out in a coordinated action. But it's not clear what's going to happen after the confirmation of what happened to Navalny.

[Joe Pike]

She did mention referring this to the Organization for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons because she argues this is a breach of international rules and the convention on that. But it's unclear what that would mean for Russia and how significant that would actually be in terms of changing any behavior.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, the other thing that she said is that government is going to change. Keir Starmer is going to listen to the women in government more after what has been a very, very troublesome week. But there's another slightly niche but yet very interesting and potentially very difficult story for Labour on the front page of the Sunday Times this morning, is there not?

[Joe Pike]

There certainly is, yeah. This. This has been rumbling for a week or so and the fact that the Sunday Times have splashed it, put it on their front page, makes it far more prominent. And there is some pretty startling detail in it, too. This is about Labour together, this think tank that was at the Heart of the efforts to to get Keir Starmer into the job as Labour leader and some reporting by the Sunday Times three years ago as to its funding. Now we know that Labour together didn't report over £700,000 worth of funding. The argument, seemingly Paddy, was that they wanted to keep some of their motives a little bit unclear.

[Paddy O'Connell]

They blamed an admin error for their 700,000 and Morgan McSweeney was in charge of it.

[Joe Pike]

Yes, admin error is still the line but they were fined by the Electoral Commission and it is viewed by some as an intentional deception because they wanted to look a bit like a sort of woolly unthreatening group to those on the left of the Labour Party as they were spending loads of money on polling, working out what Labour members would want in a leader and therefore using that to get Keir Starmer in the top position. After that Sunday Times article about the non declaration of donations came out in 2023 and some background into the funding of the group, the chief executive of that think tank got a lobbying and PR firm, APCO Worldwide, to investigate. Now initially we thought this was purely looking at the sources of those journalists, not that is a great idea perhaps, but now more detail that APCO Worldwide, this firm that were paid over £30,000, looked into personal details and the religion and relationships of Gabriel Pogren, some scoop getter at the Sunday Times, but also.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Naming journalists as people of significant interest, which is just kind of spooky and I don't think it's really what you want to be. It's not a great look if you're a libertarian, free speech loving party of the left, you shouldn't be naming journalists with significant interest because they found your admin error.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's also not something that is normal or standard behaviour as far as we know in British politics. Right. So just to say that to everybody listening, this isn't the kind of thing that would be considered to be normal behavior. Of course political parties will do research and dig around their rivals and their political enemies, but they wouldn't. Unless we're all living in the dark, which, who knows, it's possible they wouldn't dig around into journalists and their motives and they did also dig around into the motives of a couple of other journalists, including a man called Andrew Feinstein and people who'd been very much of the of the left. But the tricky thing now I think for labor in this is that the man who was the chief executive, by the time this digging around was being done and this report was commissioned was not Morgan McSpeeney, the now exited Chief of Staff. It was a man called Josh Simons who's now not just an mp, but now a minister in the government. So the allegation here is that a minister in the government before he came into Parliament paid a PR agency to try to discredit the motives and the character of a journalist who was doing his job. Now, Josh Simons has said, oh, but essentially the company went beyond their brief. I didn't know that they were doing this. I'm paraphrasing, but he's essentially saying I did nothing wrong. But Joe, do you think, because it has a bit of a sniff about this to me, that this could be be a story that actually really takes on a bit of a head of steam? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposition parties tried to put down a question in Parliament about this or something like that.

[Joe Pike]

Especially considering that this report claimed that Gabriel Poga and one of his colleagues could have been part of a Russian conspiracy in that the source of their information about Labour together could have come from a Kremlin hack of the Electoral Commission. Even though there's absolutely no evidence of that. APCO Worldwide, this lobbying in PR firm, have not responded. Meanwhile, Labour together under a different chief executive now has said they're ready to support the prca. That is the trade body for PR and communications firm which APCO Worldwide is a member of. And the trade body are now investigating one of their own members to see if they have potentially breached the code of conduct.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Okay, so we're scampering through our four subjects. So let me just summarize the Andrew situation. The Mail on Sunday is led with fresh claims and fresh emails they say they've got which show that he spread information when he was for a decade the UK trade envoy and he was giving information to Epstein and Epstein's contacts. So Vince Cable, Sir Vince Cable, who was the Business Secretary during that time, has called for an investigation. And we also spoke to Rachel Maskell MP on Radio 4 today, who wants the same public investigation into what happened when Andrew was a trade envoy.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Because a trade envoy essentially is part of the government. I mean they're, they're doing government's business.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Seeing government documents.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Seeing government documents. So that's a really interesting and an important allegation that he. And there have been bits and pieces of it, but still this comes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

He has in the past denied all allegations of wrongdoing. So we bring that to you because we're trying to do the primary colors of the main news stories on Sunday, which are Labour, Munich, Andrew and an interview making news from BBC1, which we are quite used to. Lawnsburg, because you've spoken to a woman at the heart of one of the polarizing subjects in Britain.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

If you can't keep up with all the Epstein news, you're not alone. This week, the files have nearly, but not quite, brought down a British Prime Minister. There have been allegations that Epstein was a spy and surprising countries have been drawn into the scandal. From Norway to Poland to Israel to France. It's a lot. So we're recapping all the main developments and making sense of them. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's right. So Dr. Hilary Cass, many people might remember from a couple of years ago, she wrote a landmark review after years of controversy about how young people were experiencing or accessing treatment or coming forward with questions about their gender in the nhs. And there was huge controversy about a clinic in London called the Tavistock. As a very experienced doctor, she was brought in to look at this whole issue. A couple of years has passed, but given that the government put its guidance out for schools this week about what they should do if young people come forward and say, I want to change my pronouns or I want to dress in a way that's different to my birth sex, we thought it would be a great occasion to sit down with Dr. Cass and ask for her take, really, on where this whole very tricky conversation has got to. And the thing that really came across to me more than anything else, speaking to her at some length was that she really believes that the. The adults in the room and all the shouting from adults on all sides has really let kids down. And she said that children have been misled by what they see online. She said that they'd been weaponized by adults in a very toxic and unpleasant debate. And here's a clip of her explaining that.

[Dr. Hilary Cass]

We're also caught up in all the issues about single sex spaces and sports and safe areas for women, which were actually not to do with the children, but they were somehow part of a football within it. And so, you know, that's good. That's a real shame that children have been weaponised. Weaponised, Yeah, I think so. By some people, by people at the extremes. The vast number of people in the middle are silent, but it's the people at the extremes who really have, I think, caused quite a lot of distress for young people. You know, even as there's been, you know, rhetoric in the press is Frightening for young people.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I just thought that was so profound to hear. She spent years talking to kids and young people about this, talking to doctors around the country, talking to teachers and families around the country. And her conclusion is that basically for ideological reasons, people who wanted to have a big shouting match about something ended up harming children. The other thing I thought was fascinating, that she said, and I'm going to read you the full quote because I think it's really important to hear this all in context. So one of the reasons this became such an issue is there was a dramatic spike in the number of kids coming forward saying that they have what's called gender distress. I mean, the numbers are really, really spiked. A few years ago, I asked her what her view was on the proportion of children who might be questioning of their gender for a few years and then get through that and live their life perfectly happily, and the proportion of children for whom they're only going to be happy if they do have medical treatment or transition. And she did say, look, it's impossible to put precise numbers on it, but I just want to read you this full quote because I think it's really important. She said, when the clinic started, There were about 50 children a year in the UK. By the time I started my review, it had shot up to three and a half thousand a year. We tried very hard to find out from the Tavistock what happened to the ones who didn't go on to the medical pathway, who didn't have treatment, they didn't have that data. So there's one chunk of children who don't go onto a medical pathway. Then there are all the ones that me and parents and teachers will tell you about who go through two or three years of gender questioning and then desist. So I think it's probably a really tiny number. So to paraphrase and decode that a bit, she's essentially saying, in her view, as an experienced clinician, having looked at this issue, that the majority of kids who come forward with questions about their gender essentially grow out of it. And I just thought that was really notable because I cannot imagine almost anybody in public life saying, being that candid and that clear about their view of this a couple of years ago. And I think it shows how the debate has moved on. I don't know if you two would agree with that, but I, I really was struck by her feeling able to say that out loud.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, of course, the debate has moved on because of a very important legal ruling about, among other things, same sex spaces, which is where she began her interview talking to. I think everyone in journalism and everyone who is a newscaster will agree, even if they don't like the way the debate's moved on. The debate has moved on. And yes, it does mean it's a surprise to hear someone as influential paint in such clear colors because it was an area that people kept out of unless they could take refuge by saying, I'm going to do a three year review, I'm going to take all sorts of evidence and I'm going to come back to you. We're going to hear from children, we're going to hear from parents. But inevitably, to sum up all the work that she's done when she's been so influential. I agree, yes, it is a sign of the times the debate has moved forward. And when I say forward, it's moved into a new way of which we're now talking about.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And she said that clinicians had often been frightened to use her words, clinicians had been frightened to talk about this openly. And she also said a good thing, good news, claxon, in her view, anyway. And newscasters do get in touch. If it's not been your experience. She said the treatment that's now available for kids is much better than it was. So we don't often have good, positive things to say. But in her view, the treatment and how these kids are cared for and looked after if they have this distress is much better than it was at the time of her review.

[Joe Pike]

I thought it was also interesting or what she was talking about her views on this, this trial of puberty blockers, a medical trial after the ban of that medication, which some think the fact that the trial is going ahead is controversial and kids are being put in a difficult, vulnerable position. Her, her argument was that there is no evidence puberty blockers are irreversible. But also this argument that if you are on a medical trial, she argues these children are going to be monitored like nowhere else in the nhs in terms of their cognitive development, their psychological development. She talked about their bone development. So she ultimately was arguing that having this trial is a positive, it is a good way forward, the kids are going to be monitored closely. And the alternative she described was, quote, charlatans handing out inappropriate drugs.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Exactly. Because I think since the ban on puberty blockers, it seems to be her view that some children and families and young people have been going online buying drugs that they feel that they need. And in her view, there is just not evidence that that is the right thing to do. And it's not properly regulated. But that decision on this trial is on Wes street in the House Secretary's desk. He has to decide whether or not this trial is going to go ahead. At the moment it is meant to, but I was told that it's not inevitable that it will. And some clinicians have expressed concerns and said it shouldn't go ahead. Some campaigners have said it shouldn't go ahead. In one sense, it is a tricky decision for the government. But Hilary Kassing that, that she thinks is vital for the reasons you've outlined, Jo, I think might tip the government towards not intervening and not stopping it because it is planned, but it hasn't started yet.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And it strikes me that she is looking for a new public conversation. And by coming out onto BBC1, that's a pretty good way to get that ball moving. And so we do say to newscasters, we're going to come back to this. We do want to be instructed by you. Many people will hope that children are cared for when they approach big decisions in their life. And so a lot of people will perhaps not have been speaking out because they wanted to leave it to experts. And then you find out the experts disagree. So that's where we'll kind of say, thank you very much indeed for listening, but we should go by sort of previewing all the news that will happen, that you can both tell us what will happen next week. Can you tell me anything that will happen to brace myself?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, it's the parliamentary recession, so MPS will. So Parliament won't be sitting for a.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Few hours and I can't call it holiday because you. You get very cross.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, it's not so much how I get crosses that if we say MPS are all going all day, they'll be on their loungers. You then get furious messages from peace saying, no, no, I'm doing 400 meetings in my constituency or I'm going on an important trip to go and fact find in the Bahamas, actually, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, we're going to go to the Falkland Isles, but the weather is too bad, so they're not going to go and see the penguins in the Falklands. But yeah. So the Parliament, though, will not be sitting. So any urgent questions people want to ask about Labour together will not be this week. That would have to be postponed till next week.

[Joe Pike]

Maybe the breather Keir Starmer wanted.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right, Possibly, yeah, we'll see.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I think we're failing at previewing the week. I think the editors asked us to preview the week. To be honest, it'll be obvious to the intelligent newscaster. We haven't got anything.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I tell you what's going to happen today.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I'm going to go shopping. I might go shopping. I'm going to go shopping.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

What are you gonna buy?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Oh, I think I'm gonna buy a new chicken in order to not, you know, in order to have a good roast.

[Dr. Hilary Cass]

Are you gonna.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

As opposed to buying an old chicken?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. So honestly, we. We can't dress this up any other way. You've tuned to one of the biggest news offerings of the BBC at the weekend and we don't know what's happening next week.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's okay.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So that's it. So thank you very much.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Much. They've got their head in their hands through the glass. So I think we should say goodbye.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Thank you very much and goodbye.

[Joe Pike]

Goodbye. Newscast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's Newscastbc and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Bye.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

If you can't keep up with all the Epstein news, you're not alone. This week, the files have nearly, but not quite brought down a British prime minister. There have been allegations that Epstein was a spy and surprising countries have been drawn into the scandal. From Norway to Poland to Israel to France. It's a lot. So we're recapping all the main developments and making sense of them. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcast.