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- [00:00]
Chris Mason
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
Katrina Perry
Hear that? It's holiday cheer. Arriving at Ulta Beauty with gifts for everyone on your list. Treat them to fan favorite gift sets from Charlotte Tilbury and Peach and Lily. Go all out with timeless fragrances from ysl, Ariana Grande and Carolina Herrera. And you can never go wrong with an Ulta Beauty gift card. Head to Ulta Beauty for gifts that make the holidays brighter and even more beautiful. Ulta Beauty gifting happens here.
- [00:36]
Victoria
The holidays are about giving something truly special. I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts aren't just beautiful, they're useful every single day. Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. And their Lenox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. It's more than a spice rack. It's a charming collection of hand painted houses that turn ordinary spices into extraordinary experiences. Imagine cinnamon from a tiny Victorian cottage or oregano from a pastel townhouse. Suddenly, a simple meal becomes a moment to savor. Because spices can be more than ingredients. They can inspire memories, warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage hi, Chris.
- [01:37]
Chris Mason
Hello.
- [01:38]
Victoria
How are you?
- [01:38]
Chris Mason
I'm all right. Nice to have you on newscast.
- [01:40]
Victoria
Thank you for having me. Can I. Can I ask you to explain this to me?
- [01:44]
Chris Mason
Oh, yeah, we've got Chris Mason coming in for our political surgery which we like to do once a month. Just throw everything at him. He's very happy. Yeah, I know you're always nice about it and he appreciates that. Actually. It's a great idea. Well, so what's your key question? Question for Chris? Because I always like to throw your question at him if you've got anything on politics at the moment. Oh, politics, Yeah, I was gonna.
- [02:03]
Daniel Thomas
Oh, you see, I was gonna ask.
- [02:05]
Chris Mason
Him whether he has a ham on the side during Christmas. Does he have a turkey? Okay, well, it could be political if he. If he went on the left side of the. The galovsk. My political questions to Chris offer. Right, okay. Yeah. That's a good way of making the show work. Yeah. So does he have a ham? Great. You see, the thing is, Vic, I was thinking this morning, you know, I'm expecting some curveball political questions from, you know, from folk from Greater Manchester and Bolton, but I thought they'd be coming from you. But then in came one from Vernon Kay about ham.
- [02:40]
Victoria
Well, I know Vernon and it does not surprise me that he wanted to know if you have a ham at Christmas?
- [02:45]
Chris Mason
Well, you think it was absolutely kind of on point question because it will. Do you?
- [02:49]
Victoria
Yeah, it'll put us out of our misery.
- [02:50]
Chris Mason
So Jeremy asked me about this on the radio and yes I do. This is a thing that. So I didn't used to, but my parents in law are a big fan of this giant hunk of ham that goes into a pot and simmers away for about a fortnight with all sorts of herbs and bits and bobs that go in. I always pay more attention to what goes into it. But anyway, I don't. But I love the end product. And then this thing gets dredged out of the giant pot and then sliced up and you have it on crunchy toast with mustard and stuff. It's absolutely fantastic.
- [03:23]
Victoria
Country toast?
- [03:24]
Chris Mason
No, no, crunchy, crunchy.
- [03:26]
Victoria
Oh, crunchy to.
- [03:27]
Chris Mason
I was gonna say country toast, but it's crunchy toast, you know, and, and it's absolutely fantastic. It's sort of, it becomes my sort of culinary Christmas highlight over and above, you know, the turkey or the pigs in blankets or whatever, you know, it's fantastic.
- [03:41]
Victoria
Well, that's a real little vignette of your. Of the Shea Mason, isn't it?
- [03:48]
Chris Mason
Absolutely, yeah.
- [03:50]
Victoria
Well, should we get on with this episode of Newscast?
- [03:52]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I think we ought to. Newscast.
- [03:54]
Katrina Perry
Newscast from the BBC.
- [03:56]
Chris Mason
Fat Boy Slim and me in the.
- [03:57]
Daniel Thomas
Classroom doing our violin less. I was the tattletale in the class. Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody.
- [04:03]
Chris Mason
Then daddy has to sometimes use strong language. Next time in Moscow I feel delulu.
- [04:08]
Victoria
With no Salulu Take me down to Downing street let's go have a tour.
- [04:12]
Chris Mason
Blimey.
- [04:13]
Victoria
Hello, it's Victoria in the studio and.
- [04:15]
Chris Mason
It'S Chris at Westminster.
- [04:16]
Victoria
And in the second half of today's newscast, we're going to be looking at the latest in the legal battle between the BBC and President Trump. But first, Chris, the government has today announced an independent review into foreign financial interference in UK politics. This is pretty big. They have specifically linked it to the case of Nathan Gill. And just remind newscasters, for those who need reminding who Nathan Gill is.
- [04:41]
Chris Mason
Yeah, so he is the former leader of reform in Wales. He was also an MVP for UKIP and the Brexit party. And he is in prison serving a 10 and a half year sentence for taking Russian bribes. So this, this whole thing that we've heard from the government today, Vic, is. Is pretty sharply political. It is, it has a, if you like, something of a focus on reform, although they make the point Steve Reid, the Minister who made the announcement at lunchtime that it will be. It will be broader than that. They're bringing in a guy called Philip Rycroft, who's a former senior civil servant, to chair this review that will take place over the next three months or so. It'll conclude by the. By the end of March. And yes, it' at financial, foreign interference in politics. But I think also taking this wider stuff that we hear talked about quite a bit, in fact, we heard the new MI6 director general talking about this just the other day around what's sort of seen as the gray zone of interference in society or politics, whether it be disinformation, online, financial interference, et cetera, et cetera. So it's going to have, I think, quite a fish around all of that. Not just Russia, but perhaps China and, and others. But yeah, I mean, make no mistake, it has a pretty shar political focus and a pretty sharp political focus in particular on Reform uk, given this very high profile case involving Nathan Gill.
- [06:06]
Victoria
Yeah, I'll come back to that in just a second. Let's hear from the Community's secretary, Steve Reid, announcing the review in the Commons on this afternoon.
- [06:14]
Chris Mason
The facts are clear. A British politician took bribes to further the interests of the Russian regime, a.
- [06:24]
Daniel Thomas
Regime which forcefully deported vulnerable Ukrainian children and killed a British citizen on British soil using a deadly nerve agent.
- [06:35]
Chris Mason
This conduct is a stain on our democracy.
- [06:40]
Daniel Thomas
The Independent Review will work to remove that stain.
- [06:45]
Victoria
When you say this is political with a small P, what exactly do you mean, Chris?
- [06:50]
Chris Mason
Well, I think it's probably with a big P, really, but it's a good question because you might think, well, of course it's political, it's government. You know, everything's political. But it's focused, it seems sharply focused politically, in particular on Reform uk. You know, what's the context of this? The context of this is Labour being acutely aware of the threat that Reform UK posed to them. Really interesting comments from the Prime Minister in an interview with the Economist magazine a couple of days ago, talking about how he can sleep easy when there's a Conservative government in power, but he doesn't think he'd be able to if there was a Reform UK government in power. So that sort of sense of the generational battle that Labour are attempting to frame with reform as their principal rivals. And here they've had in the last couple of months, this case involving Nathan Gill, that generated a fair amount of headlines, as you would expect, particularly because of the connection to Russia and then obviously the prominence of Russia in the international conversation around Ukraine. And yes, it'll be wider than just that case. It's much more broad than just that. But that was clearly the framing that we heard there from Mr. Reid to focus on, on the, if you like, the justification for looking into this, even though it is true that obviously that case drew a huge amount of attention. But there's the wide. The wider questions are very, very live as well, both in terms of political funding and then wider, if you like, seeding of our kind of national conversation and undermining of institutions, et cetera, et cetera, from state and non state actors online.
- [08:20]
Victoria
We also heard from Reform UK's deputy leader, actually Richard Tice, in the Commons today. He made the point that the government should also be looking into the influence China.
- [08:29]
Chris Mason
We welcome this review, of course.
- [08:32]
Daniel Thomas
And can the Secretary of State confirm.
- [08:34]
Chris Mason
Can the Secretary of State confirm that it will also cover the influence of the Chinese Communist regime into the Labour.
- [08:41]
Daniel Thomas
Party, where a senior MP allegedly received.
- [08:45]
Chris Mason
Hundreds of thousands of pounds of donations from a potential Chinese spy, a Labor government that gave away our valuable strategic Chaos Islands, a Labor government that was responsible for the Chinese spy case collapse, and a Labor government that is kowtowing to China over the Mega Embassy.
- [09:02]
Victoria
And the case, Chris, that Richard Tice is referring to there in terms of a Chinese citizen donating thousands of pounds to a Labour mp. That was a woman called Christine Lee, who donated about £400,000 to Labor's Barry Gardner over a period of five years and he employed her son until an alert from the secret intelligence agencies. Just remind newscasters what was going on there.
- [09:29]
Chris Mason
Yeah, well, it's exactly, exactly that. And therefore a case study, if you like, and something that we've touched on, haven't we, on newscast on Newsnight and elsewhere this autumn around China and this awkward relationship, frankly, that the UK and plenty of Western allies have with this growing superpower which goes about at all sorts of different levels, spying on the UK and, and others. And there was this particular case, as you say, involving Christine Lee and reform there in the form of Mr. Tice, trying to, if you like, turn the tables a little bit on the government, given the focus on Nathan Gill and Russia and the government making the argument that this, this investigation, this inquiry that Philip Rycroft, this former senior civil servant, will lead, will look at. Will look at China and the influence of. Of China. I think Richard Tai's conscious that he wanted to prod away at that a. For the obvious, obvious party political knockabout stuff, but also because, you know, I think we're going to hear in the new year, it won't be a surprise if the Prime Minister heads to Beijing in the early weeks or months of the New year and we'll have a resurgence of that conversation about what is a sensible relationship at a political and economic level with Beijing. It's kind of an unavoidable superpower. But at the same time, how skeptical, at arm's length should we be politically and diplomatically? And that, you know, he's teasing at that, because that will come, I think, roaring back into the conversation in the early part of the New year.
- [11:01]
Victoria
Yeah. And just to say Barry Gardner said in response to accepting those donations, he'd always made the security services aware of those donations. And Christine lee herself, after MI5 issued this warning alleging that she was a Chinese agent who'd infiltrated Parliament, said the alert wrongly accused her of knowingly engaging in political interference on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party. Now, Chris, you will have asked mps, as I have, when the Chinese, the China spy case collapsed, what is it that they could be passing on to Chinese agents to pass on to the, to the Communist Party in China? And what various politicians like Tom Tugenhart, for example, said to me was it might not be state secret, it might just be stuff that could be used to blackmail somebody compromising, private, what you might just call Westminster gossip that could be used, you know, to put pressure on somebody that. That's kind of what they were talking about completely.
- [12:03]
Chris Mason
And, and a big part of the conversation that's been going on here at Westminster is exactly about that, about trying to basically teach mps and their staff that this isn't necessarily kind of. I know this sounds, it sounds quite tr. Say it like this, but this isn't your sort of James Bond esque, kind of secret, uber secret intelligence of the type that you might think and is the kind of thing that intelligence agencies are involved in day to day. It's actually quite low level. The message that's been communicated to MPs and their staff is, you know, lower the bar, massively in your head about what might be of interest to those who are trying to gather information. It could be actually quite trivial, but when pieced together with information that's also gathered from that pee down the corridor, etc, etc, might build up a picture either around blackmail or around their movements or which hotel they might be staying in, if they're doing a particular foreign visit, etc. Etc. Could then be pieced together with others and, you know, all the questions around bugging, etc. Etc. So it's trying to Inform people in this postcode at Westminster just how low the bar is. Not least because there's an, there's a, an acceptance, I think in terms of the, in this case the Chinese intelligence gathering operation. The intelligence is often with a small I. Very, very broad. And that they've got time, they're quite happy to collate these little tidbits over a period of weeks and months, years and years to try and build up this picture of the UK and how it operates and who is influential or who might be influential in the future. And for that reason, you know, I have conversations all the time now with people who are. Who will take on a, they hope, a sort of new level of vigilance and acknowledge that perhaps in the past they could have been quite, quite naive about this stuff.
- [13:54]
Victoria
Yeah. And regarding the Nathan Gill case, Nigel Farage and others in Reform UK said they were absolutely shocked and horrified and essentially called him a traitor. We had Zir Youssef, Reform's head of policy on Newsnight last month and I asked him about the Gill case. Have a listen. Is there anyone else in your party who could be taking bribes from pro Russian politicians?
- [14:18]
Chris Mason
I don't believe so. Look, I've never met Nathan Gill. I've never met. Met Nathan Gill. Just to be clear, it was along before my time.
- [14:26]
Victoria
I'm asking about now.
- [14:27]
Chris Mason
And you say you don't believe what Nathan Gill did?
- [14:30]
Victoria
No. Stretcher.
- [14:31]
Chris Mason
He has pleaded guilty. I'm asking about condemn it in the strongest possible terms and politics. I've never met him. I was the chairman for a significant over the last year. I've never met the guy. Nigel did know him from his time as an mep. But I will tell you this. What Reform care about are the British people. We care about putting their needs first. Of course we condemn that treachery. I'm asking this possible term.
- [14:55]
Victoria
Could there be anyone in your party who could be taking bribes from pro Russian politicians?
- [14:59]
Chris Mason
Of course not.
- [15:00]
Victoria
Right, because a few moments ago you said I don't believe so. Now you're emphatic.
- [15:04]
Chris Mason
Of course not.
- [15:05]
Victoria
How do you know?
- [15:06]
Chris Mason
I've literally never met the guy.
- [15:07]
Victoria
No, how do you know?
- [15:09]
Chris Mason
Long ago, when he was the Welsh leader for Reform Reformer polling a sub 1% in Wales, Victoria as a startup party. This is, this is ancient history. As past as far as you've just.
- [15:20]
Victoria
Told our audience on the second answering that, no, of course not. No one else is taking bribes from pro Russian politicians. How do you know that?
- [15:28]
Chris Mason
Well, I know that in the same way any other politician from Any other party would know that. I know the people who are around. Nigel. Again, let me reiterate, I have never met Nathan Gill, nor have I ever spoken to him. And I. I only got involved with the party full time post the general election. There is nobody like that inside the party at the moment. And I will tell you this too, again, the people watching this program care about the cost of living. They care about secure borders. And it's very easy to point to this. I will say this again, we condemn it in the strongest possible terms. That is ancient history as far as reform are concerned.
- [16:04]
Victoria
You think voters do care about foreign interference in UK politics?
- [16:09]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I suspect people do, I think particularly when it is as sharply defined as the Nathan Gill story was and you could hear that in your exchange clearly it's a nightmare, the Nathan Gill situation for reform. That's why I think they authentically condemn him in the strongest possible terms. They are genuinely outraged about what he did, but acutely aware of the damage by association that it brings. And it's not that ancient history, only going back a handful of years. Granted, reform were in a very different place politically than in terms of their prominence or, or significance or relevance. I think in the context of Russia, you know, Russia, what a, you know, a toxic label in our contemporary politics to be associated with by association because of Nathan Gill. And you'll recall back in the general election campaign, one of Nigel Farage's most bumpy encounters was an interview he did with Nick Robinson where he was probed about remarks he'd made in the past about. About Vladimir Putin, which was deeply uncomfortable for him. So that is a, you know, that label of association with Russia, which reform are keen to run away from and deny is a sticky one for them. And the Nathan Gill case study, if you like, is perhaps the sort of brightest illustration of it, which is why, or at least one reason why I think the government is keen to do what it is doing because it shines that light upon them in a way that is awkward.
- [17:39]
Victoria
Thank you, Chris. Just to go full circle, I've got a small challenge for newscasters. I'm sure they will rise to it like Vernon Kay. At the start of this app, I am going to ask newscasters what would be their question to Chris Mason. And if people want to get in touch with their question, Chris, culinary or otherwise, it could. Absolutely anything. Exactly. You are going to answer the best one at the end of the week, I'm told.
- [18:06]
Daniel Thomas
This is fantastic.
- [18:07]
Victoria
Our email is newscastbc.co.uk, can I ask you my question.
- [18:11]
Chris Mason
Go for it.
- [18:11]
Victoria
What is your happiest memory from when we worked together at 5? Life doesn't have to involve me.
- [18:16]
Chris Mason
My happiest memory from five Live.
- [18:19]
Victoria
We loved working there.
- [18:20]
Chris Mason
Oh, it was fantastic, fantastic place to work. I reckon it was taking, it was actually, it was taking a brilliant, a brilliant 9 or 10 year old and their teacher from a, from a township in Durban in South Africa to the FA cup final. So we did this thing where we went out to Durban and did a whole week of programmes with Jane Garvey and Alistair Leathead, who was the South Africa correspondent at the time, a brilliant producer called Simon Peakes. And as part of that, we brought a teacher and a pupil to the UK and I took them to Cardiff. It was during those years where the FA cup final was in Cardiff and they got to watch the final and seeing them, I just always remember, never forget this, checking. We did a bit of a trip around the UK on the way to Cardiff, checking into a hotel in Leeds and handing out the key cards and whatever. And the young girl had never slept in a room on her own before. And it's just one of those moments that, where my own sort of Western naivety, frankly, just hit me in the face because she shared a room with lots of siblings in a very poor township in South Africa. So it's an amazing moment, one of those moments where you learn a lot about yourself as well as those that you're, you're reporting on, you know. So, yeah, there's probably a more profound answer than you thought, than you were.
- [19:42]
Victoria
Seeking, but that's good, that was good. Thank you, Chris. Our email is newscastbc.co.uk. thank you, Chris. Hopefully we'll chat tomorrow.
- [19:52]
Chris Mason
Talk to you soon.
- [19:52]
Victoria
Take care.
- [19:53]
Chris Mason
Bye.
- [20:03]
Katrina Perry
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- [20:05]
Victoria
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- [20:07]
Katrina Perry
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- [20:08]
Victoria
A disco, snow globe, throw pillow, pillows and PJs for the whole family, dog included.
- [20:12]
Katrina Perry
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- [20:15]
Victoria
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- [21:17]
Katrina Perry
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Chris Mason
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Katrina Perry
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- [22:56]
Victoria
So President Trump has followed through with his promise to file a lawsuit against the BBC. Donald Trump is suing the BBC for $5 billion in dam over an edit of his 6th of January 2021 speech in a BBC Panorama documentary. Now the US leader has accused the BBC of defamation and of violating a trade practices law, according to court documents filed in Florida. The BBC, as you know, apologized to him last month but rejected his demands for compensation because they disagreed there was a basis for a defamation claim, a BBC spokesperson has said. As we've made clear previously, we will be defending this case. Let's Talk more about this with the Financial Times global media editor, Daniel Thomas. Hi, Dan. Welcome to newscast.
- [23:42]
Daniel Thomas
Hey, Victoria, how you doing?
- [23:43]
Victoria
Very well, thank you. And in Washington, Katrina Perry. Hi, Katrina.
- [23:47]
Katrina Perry
Hi, Victoria. Hi, Dan.
- [23:48]
Victoria
Right, so I printed out this United States District Court, Southern District of Florida, Miami Division lawsuit. And it's really dramatic when you first read it. President Donald J. Trump, plaintiff versus British Broadcasting Corporation defendants. And the first paragraph is this. This action concerns a false, defamatory, deceptive, disparaging, inflammatory and malicious depiction of President Trump which was published in a BBC Panorama documentary that was fabricated and aired by the defendants one week before the 2024 presidential election in a brazen attempt to interfere in and influence the election's outcome to President Trump's detriment. Now, I've never looked at a defamation lawsuit before, Dan, but that seems to me like a blistering opening and a pretty hide opening if you are a BBC lawyer. What is it that President Trump has taken issue with specifically?
- [24:44]
Daniel Thomas
Gosh, it does sound quite daunting, doesn't it? It goes on to talk about massive economic damage to brand value and significant damage and injury to his future financial prospects, which I, you know, a lot of people reading that will be wondering what exactly has been injured, given he's he's the president of the United States of America. But and this is this comes to the point of, of the lawsuit, really, and how the BBC will defend itself from it. I mean, so the President Trump is alleging that the BBC edited a documentary which appeared to show him calling for violence in the January 6, 2021 marches and speech around that time. And there was a fault there. The BBC's were admitted to a fault and they said apologize, not asked to move on. But Trump hasn't let it lie and it's not going away. And this is a massive problem for the BBC because it faces not just what before Trump came out and saw lots of, as usual, lots of bombast and said, I'm going to sue the BBC for 5 billion up to $5 billion. Turns out it's going to be $10 billion. And it can't be these sort of astronomical figures, which for the BBC is unthinkable that they could possibly be facing this sort of damage, economic damage going forward. So it's going to be a really job, I think, for the BBC to really to get back. And it's basically because it's got to fight this in Florida, which is Trump's homeland as well. And it's got to go over there. It's going to be very costly. And it's going to have to challenge all those different points. They're going to have to try and prove things like it wasn't editing this thing maliciously, it wasn't deliberately changing the program to show what Donald Trump is alleging that they sought to shy. And it's going to have to prove. Prove also that there's no jurisdiction for the court. And that latter point is going to be really crucial for the court case going forward.
- [26:45]
Victoria
Yeah. We'll come back to Florida in a moment. But Katrina, Donald Trump said last month, I think I have to do it. They changed the words coming out of my mouth. What else has he said about this lawsuit?
- [26:57]
Katrina Perry
Well, he didn't say anything about it for a few weeks, which I think had a lot of people thinking, oh, maybe he's made this threat. But he wouldn't actually, actually file the paperwork. We know now that has happened. And he spoke about it in the Oval Office again yesterday. Similar kind of words, saying he was suing the BBC for, quote, putting words in my mouth. Literally to put words in my mouth. He said, they had me saying things that I never said coming out. I guess they used AI or something. So we'll bring that lawsuit. The media can't even believe this one. They put terrible words in my mouth having to do with January 6th 6th that I didn't say and the beautiful words that I did say. Right. And on he went like that. And I should say that in the 33 pages of that legal document, there is no mention of AI that's not part of the claim from his lawyers. There's no suggestion that the BBC used AI to put words in Donald Trump's mouth. Rather, the legal case is about splicing two sentences together that were nearly 55 minutes apart.
- [28:00]
Victoria
Yeah. And, Dan, the President's claim essentially breaks down into several bits. Firstly, that the notion that the BBC did this deliberately, that it was malicious, it was intentional, it was motivated by bias. And the key quote here is, as an initial matter of common sense, it would have been impossible for the BBC's journalists and producers to splice together two distinct parts of the speech from nearly 55 minutes apart. Part. Unless they were acting intentionally. And then obviously, he points to Tim Davy and Deborah Teness, the former Director General, the former head of news, resigning in, as he put it, in disgrace, as a tacit acknowledgment of wrongdoing. I mean, does he have a. Do his lawyers have a point there?
- [28:43]
Daniel Thomas
Well, there clearly is a point there, and it's been acknowledged by the BBC management. It's being acknowledged by the fact that, that Tim Davy and Deborah Turner had to resign over this, this matter. And it has become of, as we know, a big scandal and it, you know, led to questions of the BBC board and all sorts of things. So. Right. So there is clearly a point, but that, that is different from being able to forge a $10 billion lawsuit in Florida against the BBC to show that there's actually malicious intent behind the causing of harm to Donald Trump. And doing this, you know, for, for a lot of, you know, people who are on the outside of this story, it could appear, which is what the BBC is saying, like this is an editing job which went through normal processes, went up, they made a mistake, they, they held their hands up and, and they apologized and that, that normally for them would have been it. Donald Trump is different times, obviously. So now the BBC is facing us more. So, I mean, Donald Trump has history, has form in going after the media, using the laws, courts in America. He successfully sued and got settlements from broadcasters like ABC and from cbs, both cases which law experts thought that could have been fought, but in the end got successors. So he is pretty bold in this sort of matter. And to some degree, it doesn't really matter how much money he will get ultimately because he'll have his time in the spotlight, he'll have his time in court, he'll be able to spend, spend however many months it now takes to go through the legal process. You know, constantly having a go to the BBC, constantly have a go to the BBC journalists, undermining what it can do and bringing into the political dimension as well. Right. Because this, you know, this is, this comes to. And Katrina will know much more about it than I do. But this comes to that relationship between the US and UK too.
- [30:36]
Victoria
Yeah, absolutely. Can I just chat with you, dan? You've said 10 billion. He's seeking on a couple of occasions. So I've read it and it says 5 billion. Where have you got 10 from?
- [30:46]
Daniel Thomas
It's 2. It's 2K is 2. There's two counts, 5 billion each. And this is, this has caused a bit of internal debate as well, actually, because we saw the BBC as running with five, but we think it's 10. And we've kind of confirmed by the Trump's legal team that they're seeking 10.
- [31:00]
Victoria
Right. Okay. Katrina, in terms of Trump's relationship with other media outlets, he sued a number of them, often on regular occasions. They have paid him, him sums of millions and millions of dollars. Why has he done that, well, that's.
- [31:18]
Katrina Perry
The big question, isn't it? Critics of Donald Trump would say that he is doing that to essentially undermine what's referred to as the legacy media in this country who report him in a way that report upon him in a way that he doesn't like. It wouldn't necessarily always be in a favorable manner, it's in an objective manner. And it's not maybe always glowing reportage, which is what you will get from some of the more newer media outlets who have the same belief system as him and who celebrate and applaud what he does. So this is a way of kind of undermining that critics would say. So he has taken several cases against US Media networks and, and I suppose the difference being between the BBC and those US Networks is they have license arrangements here, so they need their licenses renewed and rubber stamped by the fcc, which is not the case for the BBC, which is also obviously funded by the British taxpayer, the license fee payer, insofar as the news part of the operation is concerned anyway. But I mean, just to recap, Dan mentioned them earlier, of course, that I mean you have last year, you had in March of last year settling with ABC News for $15 million, settling with Paramount CBS in October of last year just before the election for $16 million. He's launched a lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal in the middle of the summer. He's looking for $10 billion for them. That's still ongoing. And that was to do with their reporting of the so called birthday book made For Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday, the new York Times. He's also suing them for 15 billion. That's ongoing. There's an ongoing lawsuit as well involving AP who has refused to refer to the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America, which is how President Trump likes to refer to it. So there definitely is a pattern there. And we saw it in the first Trump administration as well, didn't we, where he would constantly have these battles with the legacy mainstream media, calling them enemy of the state, enemy of the people and so on. So, so this is. There is a pattern to his behavior there. But as I say, it's very different in the case of the BBC.
- [33:37]
Victoria
Sure, Dan. Part of this claim is that citizens of Florida would have been able to see this Panorama a week before the US Presidential election. And the lawsuit says the Panorama documentary's publicity coupled with significant increases in VPN usage in Florida. VPN stands for Virtual Private Network, I. E. You have to find this network in order to access Iplayer so coupled with significant increases in VPN usage in Florida establishes the immense likelihood that citizens of Florida accessed the documentary before the BBC removed it. The immense likelihood. Does that mean there is no actual evidence of Florida citizens watching it?
- [34:28]
Daniel Thomas
Yeah, I think many legal experts think that's a bit of a stretch that people would illegally see to use VPNs.
- [34:37]
Victoria
To access a documentary.
- [34:40]
Daniel Thomas
The iplayer to find a documentary specific which is. Wasn't exactly the most mainstream of documentaries. We're not talking about primetime viewing here. It seems to many people that this is where the BBC probably has its strongest grounds to at least initially fight back and just try to get this court case through thrown out if they can. It will really be incumbent for the Trump's legal team to try and find these people who allegedly seen this program. I mean they haven't done it in the court in the documents so far. They just say oh, and people can use v. Could use VPNs to watch this. They say oh people, people. And then they, and then he makes an allegation or they make an allegation around use of Britbox in, in the US as well. And again, it's not very clear to anyone right now if that is even possible that the documentary has been shown on Britbox. So there is, is so again, we don't know if there's any evidence of that. And the third point is the documents talk around about a third party distribution deal with a provider and again that provider has told me this afternoon at least, and probably to other people as well, that they didn't distribute or their partners, the broadcast partners they sell the program onto did not show this in the US and so they say that there's no grounds for this to be a problem. So and if, if Trump's lawyers can't find anyone who's actually watched this program in, in Florida, then there it can't be tried in Florida and they can't be contested in Florida and this case gets thrown out. And, and that would be, that would be probably the neatest way that the BBC could possibly defend it. Because after that if they, if they go into the legal niceties of, of malice and harm and all the rest of it, it gets slightly trickier but I mean there's a relatively clear cut argument they can make make and they have made already.
- [36:19]
Chris Mason
Right?
- [36:19]
Daniel Thomas
The BBC has clearly said that the iplayer is geo blocked, it can't be accessed in the US and they've clearly said they have not distributed to the US in their letter originally in response to the original threat.
- [36:31]
Katrina Perry
And Dan, just to add on that, we've had a statement from Blueant Media, that production company as well as you say it, said the people who bought it in the US have never aired it. But it also says that the version of this documentary that it obtained screened to share within the US Was a much cut down version and did not contain the edit in question. So even if somebody did air it, which they say hasn't happened, that edit was not there, so it couldn't have been screened in the U.S. according to that statement.
- [37:03]
Victoria
When you look at social media of people who consume BBC content or pay the license fee or don't, you know, maybe they don't consume BBC content, it is broadly split into two groups. I'm generalizing here to make a point which is great. Hopefully this is the end of the BBC. And secondly, don't you dare BBC use my license fee to pay damages to President Trump. What, what are your sources? What are your contacts? What are your legal experts saying to you about what the BBC should do now? Because it's making it clear it is going to defend this claim, which is going to cost money.
- [37:40]
Daniel Thomas
There's all sorts of principles at stake here, but not least the journalistic principle of defending your report, your position, your reporters, your media and all the rest of it and not setting up any precedent of just giving in once the first sign of a legal document drops on your doorstep. So that is pretty important, it has to be said, from my personal point of view at least. And there has been a suggestion that actually it's going to be very difficult for the BBC to use taxpayer money, money, license fee money, taxpayer money to pay this off if they wanted to do that. It's not really their money. Right. It's our money is the people who pay the license fee. And there's lots of people, as you say, who'll be very angry if the BBC decides to capitulate to the demands of Trump and seek to settle, there will be, and there has to be internally some sort of negotiation or some sort of thought process which goes along the lines of, of, you know, if we do settle, how much would he settle for and would that be a less of a cost than if we fought this all the way to the courts and, and won in the US there's no, you know, it's not like the UK where, where the, where the, where the winner doesn't have to pay costs. It's, you know, you have to pay costs all through the process. And that can go, you know, there's some estimates that suggest this could be in the tens of millions, maybe up to $100 million to, to fight this all the way. And if Trump really brings the big guns to it and he's got very good lawyers lawyers, then the BBC has to get very good lawyers as well. It's very expensive, all that. So maybe that, you know, that there is perhaps a calculation going on which says, oh, if it's 5, 10 million, maybe we should just see him off. Apology, here's a check and go on our way. But I do think, as you say, politically that's very, very tricky for no other reason. What points of principle?
- [39:24]
Victoria
Tiny, tiny. Final thought if I may. Michael Prescott, the external Advisor to the BBC's editorial guidelines and Standards Committee, who wr wrote the memo which talked about this Panorama edit and then which got leaked to the Daily Telegraph, which then started the whole, you know, the cycle really, that led to the, the resignation of Deborah Tennesse and Tim Davy. I mean, a lot of his email to the board is quoted in this defamation lawsuit. I suspect he never, ever thought that would be the case when he wrote that email all those months ago.
- [40:01]
Daniel Thomas
Yeah, I can't imagine that he would ever want the BBC to be sued for 100, sorry, $10 billion. That's unthinkable and that'd be a bit boring term. I know that much would be true. But it's, it is the. Yes. Unintended consequences. It feels like a long time ago. Right. We were just discussing earlier how, you know, the, the resignation of, of Tim Davy and Deborah Teness, you know, that feels like, oh, God, the last news cycle, all of last month and now we look where we are and it's going to rumble on as well. This is not going to go away. Donald Trump is clearly here to stay. He clearly wants to get his time in the court. So I think, yeah, I think it's going to be a tough few months going forward for the, for the BBC for all sorts of reasons.
- [40:39]
Victoria
Dan, thank you very much. Katrina, thank you very much as always.
- [40:42]
Katrina Perry
Thank you.
- [40:43]
Daniel Thomas
Thank you.
- [40:52]
Victoria
Don't forget to get your questions in for Chris Mason. Email newscastbc.co.uk and that's all from this episode of Newscast. I'll be back with you tomorrow.
- [41:02]
Chris Mason
Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. Thank you so much for making it.
- [41:06]
Daniel Thomas
To the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. Newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related. There is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.
- [41:44]
Katrina Perry
Bye.
- [41:51]
Victoria
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