Adam Fleming (1:40)

Let's go have a tour.

Henry Zeffman (1:41)

Blimey.

Adam Fleming (1:43)

Hello, it's Adam Fleming here, host of the BBC's Daily News podcast Newscast. Although you might think over the next 25 minutes it's an episode of another famous podcast, Traitors Uncloaked, because we're doing a live episode today to talk about the news that has gripped Westminster ever since 11 o' clock this morning, where Kemi Badenok, the Tory leader, sensationally announced that she was sacking Robert Jenrick from the Shadow cabinet where he shadowed Justice Secretary and for good measure, chucking him out of the Conservative parliamentary party, she says because she'd been presented with incontrovertible evidence that he was going to defect. We've got some of the members of the Newscast extended family to help us understand what's going on and piece Together, this big, big Westminster drama. Here in the studio is Laura Kuenssberg. Hello, Laura.

Laura Kuenssberg (2:26)

Hello, Adam.

Adam Fleming (2:26)

Do you want to give me your instant reaction to this news?

Laura Kuenssberg (2:28)

Well, I think it is both unsurprising that there's evidence that Robert Jenrick had been thinking about making a big, dramatic move to Reform. I think it's really notable that Kemi Badenoch thought, right, let's shove him out before that happens.

Adam Fleming (2:41)

Take the initiative.

Laura Kuenssberg (2:42)

Exactly. And essentially she has kneecapped someone who was seen both as a rival to her and internally, and also somebody who might have been someone to do big damage if he'd gone across to a rival party. I think it's a sign of her increasing confidence, but also if the party really had found incontrovertible evidence, and we'll see if we can get our sticky paws on any of that incontrovertible evidence, then in a way, she had no choice but to act in this way.

Adam Fleming (3:09)

And we'll dig into all of that over the next few minutes. We're also joined by Alex Forsyth, who's at Westminster. Hi, Alex.

Alex Forsyth (3:14)

Hello.

Adam Fleming (3:15)

Give me your hot take.

Alex Forsyth (3:16)

Well, one word in the word of Chris Mason. Blimey. No, I'd agree with everything that Laura said. I think the decision by Kemi Badenok to act as she did came somewhat out of the blue, despite the fact. The background to this is that the rumors around Robert Jenrick possibly defecting to Reform had been swirling for some time. So this is clearly Kemi Badenoch trying to cement and state her authority on the party. But it leaves huge questions about what now for Robert Jenrick and what that means for the Conservatives and, and also possibly Reform uk, if he does decide to head in that direction, which at the moment we don't know because we haven't heard from him.

Adam Fleming (3:49)

And chief political correspondent Henry Zeffman has joined the chat. Hello, Henry.

Henry Zeffman (3:53)

Hi, Adam.

Adam Fleming (3:54)

Right, give me. You've got 30 seconds to give us your big pitch for why this is such an important and exciting story.

Henry Zeffman (3:59)

Because it's about the future of the British right. It's not just about Robert Jenrick's future and what party he ends up in. It's about whether the man who nearly became Conservative Party leader just over a year ago is going to decide that the Conservative Party is old news and that the future of right wing politics in this country is Reform uk. Now, clearly, Kemi Badenoch has done a very good job of framing the backdrop to that possible decision, but if he still does make that decision, and he has a lot less Leverage and holds a lot fewer cards than he did a few hours ago. But if he does end up in Reform uk, wow. Take a step back. That's a massive moment.

Adam Fleming (4:35)

And, Laura, we'll dig into the timeline of this and some more of the implications, but there is one person we have not heard from at all yet, and that's Robert Genrick himself.

Laura Kuenssberg (4:43)

Yes, there is silence from Robert Genrick's camp, so far as I'm sure Alex and Henry both have done as well. I've been messaging people close to him. Either there's been nothing back or I sent a message to someone, I'm paraphrasing, say something like, goodness me. And they just responded saying, I. So, you know, it's huge. We haven't heard from him and it's difficult to know how he will respond because, as Henry said, the embarrassment of him being shoved out for allegedly leaving evidence of his plot lying around leaves him with less leverage. It leaves him with fewer options. And what's he meant to do? What's his choice other than to go to Reform now? Because there's no home for him in the Tory party as we understand it, he's also been booted out and lost the whip. So this is not just a question of, oh, I'm sacking him as a shot, it's not a demotion, it's out. You know, he's been properly kneecapped by Kamy Bnock. It will be very interesting to see how he responds. But as Henry says, however, Robert Genrick decides to manage the next couple of days. Who knows whether or not he'll decide to turn up on a red chair on Sunday morning, for example, or whether Colle 1 would be well available. And it's giving me the memories, actually, of when he quit as immigration minister, because he does have form for doing dramatic things. He quit the former government because he was so frustrated by what he saw as failures in the Home Office, as not being radical or bold enough on immigration. You know, he's somebody who does have a degree of political courage without question, but as Henry says, the question is, what's he going to do next? At the moment, he's got fewer cards in his hand to play because, frankly, he's been found out and done in. However, in the medium to long term, the that might not matter, because if somebody who's an experienced, savvy media performer, love him or hate him, somebody who does stunts like chasing fair dodgers on the tube, creating a huge public conversation, he's good at grabbing headlines. And so if somebody like that does go across to Reform uk, he will be an asset to them. And it does change as well. The question about Cami Badenok's leadership, she's been more secure in the last couple of months, without question. But there was always a sense that if after May and those local elections go terribly for the Tories, that might have been Generic's moment. Yeah, of course he's sitting. If he's sitting in a different party, you know that ain't gonna happen. But it is a big story about the fight on the right.

Adam Fleming (7:07)

So the situation at 6pm tonight could be really quite different.

Laura Kuenssberg (7:10)

It could be completely different.

Adam Fleming (7:10)

Here's the situation at 1:43 on Thursday afternoon. And let's rewind back to 11:00 clock this morning. And this is how the Tory leader, Cami Badenok made her announcement about what she was doing about Robert Jenrick's future. She did it in a video that she posted on X. And so here is a little excerpt of she said.

Laura Kuenssberg (7:28)

This morning I removed the Conservative Whip from Robert Jenre after dismissing him from the Shadow Cabinet. I was very sorry to be presented with clear, irrefutable evidence, not just that he was preparing to defect, but he was planning to do so in the most damaging way possible to the Conservative Party and his Shadow Cabinet colleagues. It is my responsibility to protect our party. And faced with that information, I took the only decision that any responsible leader could.

Adam Fleming (8:00)

Basically, you could interpret every single word of that statement in different ways. So let's dig into some of, some of the words. Alex, do we have any idea what this evidence actually was? I'm seeing speculation on social media that it was. It was a resignation speech that was left lying around. On a photocop.

Alex Forsyth (8:17)

Yeah. Or a letter of some description left lying around. They said that there was like Kevin Hollandrake, who is the Conservative Party Chair, was talking about it and he didn't give huge amounts of detail about the specifics of what piece of paper was seen or wasn't. But the clear indication that he gave was that it was obvious, it was apparent. Apparent it wasn't being hidden. It was kind of kicking around, I don't know what cchq, Conservative Central Head Office for people to get their hands on and take a look at. And you can hear from what Kemi Badenok's suggesting there is that this was an evidence based decision. The kind of cry went up through the newsroom when she launched that video on social social media with people suggesting this was her sort of Wagatha Christie moment. Thinking back to the, you know, Colleen Rooney, Rebecca Vardy moment on social media when she was sort of outed. So I don't know what that evidence is. Nobody's produced it yet, nobody's seen a letter or resignation speech. But the other element of this was that there was scheduled to be a press conference at 4:30 today with Nigel Farage in Westminster. So Nigel Farage has already implied that perhaps Kemi Badenoch had her eyes on that press conference and was wondering if that might be the moment that Robert Jenrick announced that he was joining Reform uk, which of course, we don't even know if he is yet, because we've yet to hear from him.

Adam Fleming (9:30)

I'm now racking my brains for a Kemi Badenok detective pun. What is the.

Alex Forsyth (9:35)

What the Wagatha Christie alternatives.

Adam Fleming (9:36)

Yeah, what's our. We need to coin it right now here live on newscast, so that for the next hundred years, this. That'll be what it's called. This drama is called. That's everyone. Just put that in the back of your minds as we analyze the news. Henry, are the Conservative Party and Conservative sources citing any other bits of evidence other than this, maybe left behind on a photocopier bit of paper?

Henry Zeffman (9:55)

No, they're not. But I can just add a little bit more context to what Alex said there, which is that obviously there are going to be lots of calls for the Conservative Party to release this evidence. And I spoke to someone who says that they have seen it, say it, and they said it was a speech that would have been the speech that he made upon defecting, and they say they're reluctant to release it because, well, it is the denunciation of the Conservative Party from one of the most senior people in the Conservative Party. Now, I get that from their point of view. I don't think that's going to last. I think there are Conservatives who are still Conservatives who are, or at least were close to Robert Jenrick, who want to be satisfied that Kemi Badenoch has not launched this without good reason. So I would not be surprised if we do see at least sort of excerpts or some sort of screenshots or whatever it might be of some of that speech, perhaps even before the end of the day, but certainly within a few days, another bit of detail of how today has unfolded. Kemi Badenoch was not the person who sacked Robert Jenrick. And as Laura said, he's not just sat from the Shadow Cabinet. He's not actually, by the way, only had the wit withdrawn. He's been booted out of the Conservative Party as a member. He's not a member of the Conservative Party right now. And that was not communicated by Kemi Bay. That was communicated by a woman called Rebecca Harris, who is the Conservative Party Chief Whip, over the phone to Robert Jenrick. Robert Jenrick denied, we are told, that he was planning to defect to Reform uk. He then hung up. And as soon as he hung up, the Conservative Party posted that video from Kemi Badenoch online.

Adam Fleming (11:29)

Oh, so Cami Badenoch didn't administer the killer blow herself, she left it to someone else.

Henry Zeffman (11:34)

Correct.

Adam Fleming (11:35)

Some people would say that's not the sign of a strong leader and actually the strength she wants to have attributed to her. She did dodge the hardest bit of this whole process.

Laura Kuenssberg (11:42)

Well, or is it even more deadly? You see, I'm just not even gonna speak to you.

Alex Forsyth (11:45)

Oh, yeah.

Adam Fleming (11:46)

I'm not even bothered.

Laura Kuenssberg (11:46)

I'm not even gonna bother. The Chief Whip's just gonna give you the bad news. Get your coat. So what I've been told is that due to what was described to me as the careless actions of his team, there was this irrefutable evidence that he was going to defect, and defect in the most damaging way possible.

Adam Fleming (12:01)

What do we think that means?

Laura Kuenssberg (12:03)

Well, what's been suggested to me, but I have not confirmed this. But as. As Henry says, you know, everybody who does our kind of job is going to be scrabbling to try and get their grubby paws on, actually, the evidence. And I think there will be pressure from those inside the Tory ranks to see that too.

Adam Fleming (12:18)

Or to see that, if they can see it. Well, once done, the right thing.

Laura Kuenssberg (12:22)

Yeah, exactly. It was suggested to me, but as I say, I've not confirmed it, that the plan was actually he was going to do this at the start of the election campaign or just before the elections in May. Now, Robert Jenner may be many things. He's somebody who has been on a political journey. People would say he was a Cameroon once upon a time, but he does have a nous for political timing. And if it was really his plot to do this in a way, to sort of try and hobble the Tories at the beginning of their election campaign or during that election campaign, that, to some people, would be seen in January as really quite unforgivable. It's also worth saying he, as I understand it, sat in the Shadow Cabinet meeting yesterday as if nothing was wrong, and was at the Shadow Cabinet, had an away day last, either Thursday or Friday, I can't quite remember, and he was there and participated in that. And you know didn't send a balloon up or send up any distress signal and.

Adam Fleming (13:17)

And if the plan was for him to resign at the start of the election campaign for the. The Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Senate and English local authorities, we would normally expect that campaigning to sort of get really underway.

Alex Forsyth (13:28)

What like.

Laura Kuenssberg (13:31)

Yes.

Adam Fleming (13:32)

So are we thinking maybe actually this could have been something that was sort.

Laura Kuenssberg (13:34)

Of six weeks away? Although it's a different bit of information, as somebody said to me. Actually, no, it was probably going to be more imminent. But look, I don't, I don't know but I think the interesting thing for the Tory leadership now and one of the things that they've said in their statement is that they want to mark a clear break from the years and years and years of psychodrama that kept us all in a job, but they don't want to run things that way. So I suppose rather than trying to have an argument with him about keeping him in. Do you really. Are you really going to do this? Is it gonna. The decision. Out. Get out. P45. Get your coat gone. Don't darken our door again. But it is going to be really interesting to see how he responds and it was very interesting hearing from Nigel Farage who happened to have been having. He had a morning press conference in Scotland and a Westminster press conference at 4:30 and this morning his response was to deny that there had been any kind of big deal, but sort of acknowledge that there'd been some kind of conversations. But you know, no, he said that hadn't been the plan for a big, you know, Robert generic to jump out of a reform cake this afternoon. Maybe I'll be doing it tomorrow.

Adam Fleming (14:36)

I'm trying not to laugh because my colleague Chloe has just messaged me saying it's obviously bad. Not combs bad knock Holmes. I mean I think that works written down better. Maybe I just didn't deliver it bay to knock Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes, the famous detective.

Laura Kuenssberg (14:50)

Okay, have another go at the delivery and then I think we're there.

Adam Fleming (14:52)

Bada not co bader not cock Holmes.

Laura Kuenssberg (14:54)

There we are.

Adam Fleming (14:55)

Anyway, I can't imagine, no offense to.

Henry Zeffman (14:58)

All of you, especially Chloe, but that is rush. I haven't got a better option, but come on.

Adam Fleming (15:03)

There speaks somebody who used to work on newspapers and so is schooled in the Alex, Laura was just talking about Nigel Farage doing his first press conference of the day which was in Scotland this morning. Tell us a bit more about what you took away from what he was saying about all of this.

Alex Forsyth (15:18)

Well, he obviously, and this is absolutely no surprise, had no prior warning that Kemi Badenok was about to do what she did did, because it was our colleague James Cook who asked the first question to Nigel Farage and effectively told him that Robert Jemreck had been sacked. And you could see that Nigel Farage looked a bit surprised at that news in particular. In fact, he said so himself. And then, as Laura said, he went on to do this whole thing about, well, look, I talked to lots of Conservatives and lots of them don't see a viable future for the Conservative Party. And they're talking to us and sort of flirting with the possibility of reform, but denied. There have been a sort of signed and sealed deal with Robert Jenrick. Of course, it follows what we had earlier in this week where Nadeem Zahawi had defected from the Conservatives to Reform uk and we have had other senior big party figure defections. Of course, from Nigel Farage's perspective, this is never going to be any kind of attention that he's not going to enjoy. You know, this is him right where he wants to be in this, suggesting that he has. It's his party that's got the power to pull away these Conservative senior Conservative Party figures and it allows him to make all of those arguments he advances about where the Conservative Party is heading. But clearly, if there was a defection in place case, this has kind of spiked Nigel Farage's guns a little bit as much as it has Robert Jenricks. And what it has also allowed other political opponents to do is to level the arguments at Reform UK that they already have been starting to shape around. You know, is Reform UK just taking on too many former Conservatives? What does that say about the party in and of itself and the kind of talent within the party pool? How will it differentiate itself from Conservatives if it just pulls loads of people in? So you've already seen a lot of that kicking around the sidelines. But the up and down of it is that, you know, Nigel Farage, I think you could see from that press conference in Scotland and another press conference in Westminster, he was kind of delighting in the broader attention that this gives his party, particularly if he does manage to pull somebody like Robert Jemerich, who has been a really significant figure on the right, into Reform at this point.

Adam Fleming (17:10)

The fact that Nazim Zahawi was unveiled as the latest defector on Monday makes me think that this wasn't necessarily meant to happen today, that Robert Jenwick wasn't going to be unveiled today, because why would you want two in one week when actually you could just spread them.

Alex Forsyth (17:23)

Out if you wanted to inflict maximum damage. You're right, that sort of drip, drip. And also I was told earlier, before all of this happened, that the, the substance of the press conference that reforms due to hold in Westminster later was actually about the council elections and the postponement of council elections. Now, of course, that's not to say they didn't have a defector up their sleeve. I don't know everything about them. But, you know, that was. I think that genuinely seemed to be what was due to happen this afternoon.

Adam Fleming (17:48)

Now, Laura, you talked about Robert Jenrick's political journey. I wonder if we should just now collectively just work out all the different versions of Robert Jerich. There's been almost like sort of like he's like a set of action men dolls. So I'm thinking of when I first came across Robert Jenrick. It was. He was running in a bile action.

Henry Zeffman (18:05)

In Newark against Nigel Farage's Ukip. That was his main rival in that by election. It was all about keeping Nigel Farage out of Parliament.

Adam Fleming (18:14)

Yeah.

Henry Zeffman (18:15)

It wasn't him, but his party.

Adam Fleming (18:16)

Yeah. And it was a by election because Patrick Morrisser, the Conservative MP head, had resigned because of a scandal. And so when was that? 2014. Yeah, yeah, 2014. Okay. This is like the pub quiz in real time. And so then. And then, I mean, he and Laura, he rose through the ranks very quickly as a sort of good administrator, a person you could put in lots of government departments and he'd get a grip of things.

Laura Kuenssberg (18:39)

Yes, but he was also one of those people along with, I suppose, Rishi Sunak and Oliver Dowden and if my memory serves me correctly, which is perfectly feasible that it does not. As I remember, Rishi Sunak and Oliver Dowden and Robert Genrick were people who got behind Boris Johnson.

Henry Zeffman (18:55)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (18:55)

They wrote a famous newspaper article and.

Laura Kuenssberg (18:57)

I remember to the surprise of some. So at a time when people in the middle of the Tory party sort of moderatories were thinking, no, Boris Johnson is a rogue. He must not be allowed to come back and lead us. The decision of generic and Dowden and Sunak, who were seen as kind of sensible future facing rising stars next generation, the three of them as a trio put their weight behind Boris Johnson and that in the beltway. I mean, we are properly being, you know, Westminster intrigue here. But that was seen as a significant move.

Henry Zeffman (19:27)

Just to be really beltway about that, I broke that story. Not to sound too self.

Laura Kuenssberg (19:34)

It was an op ed sandwich which I solicited.

Henry Zeffman (19:37)

From one of the three Interesting. And it was a big moment precisely because Robert Jenrick came from the mainstream of the Conservative Party, as Laura says, he was seen as well. The three of them were seen as, you know, not necessarily the likeliest people to get on board with Boris Johnson. In 2016, Robert Jenrick had backed first Michael Gove, who was also running in 2019, and then Theresa May. So it was a really big moment. And Robert Jenrick actually initially got the bigger job in Boris Johnson's cabinet. Of the three of them, he was a full cabinet minister straight away under Boris Johnson. Rishi Sunak and Oliver Dowden ultimately rose much further. Prime Minister and Deputy pm, but they had smaller jobs initially. And then the power dynamic all changed, and I think that was quite important.

Laura Kuenssberg (20:18)

And then he. Sorry, I was gonna say. And then he got into all sorts of trouble when he was in charge of housing over connections or discussions over a planning decision with the wealthy, wealthy man, Richard Desmond. And there was a whole angle that went on for an awful long time around that. So we had some sort of trouble that. But then he ended up at the ha. At the Home Office. And I think there was always a sense, I don't know if the other two would agree, that he was a bit frustrated. He felt he should have had a bigger cabinet job. But all the kind of snafu around the Desmond affair sort of made him a bit difficult to promote, I suppose. And then he ended up as Immigration Minister. And during his time at the Home Office, Immigration Minister, he went on a political journey, I think, which he's not the only person ever to have done this, to go into the Home Office feeling, well, I'm quite a sort of moderate person, and then almost be radicalized by what they saw at the Home Office. He quit that job. And then I remember he came on the program on the Sunday after he resigned, and he was full of sort of ire at what he felt was going wrong in the Home Office and that he had found incredibly difficult to fix in his time at the Home Office. Now, others may say, recollections may vary. And that was a big opportunistic move for him to make at a time when the Tory Party was not in a good place under Rishi Sun Sunak.

Adam Fleming (21:40)

Well, I was gonna say that was another example of where somebody might accuse him of being a bit traitorous in his behavior because he resigned, causing a massive political problem for somebody who'd been his pal in politics.

Laura Kuenssberg (21:50)

Correct. Correct.

Adam Fleming (21:50)

Rishi Sunak.

Laura Kuenssberg (21:51)

And since then, I said, I think it is fair to say that he has moved further towards the rightward edge of the Conservative Party. Some of his rhetoric about communities, some of his rhetorics about immigration and culture, I think, has really been a very different version of Robert Genrick than the one we might have seen 10 years ago. And the remarks he made recently about the kind of people that you saw in Birmingham, the kind of people that you saw in our culture. Now he's become much more on the rightward fringe of the party, which is why there had been an awful lot of chatter about whether or not he was warming up to move across to reform.

Adam Fleming (22:24)

Alex, this is another bit of Robert Jenrick's backstory that you would like to point us to.

Alex Forsyth (22:28)

Well, the fact he wanted to be the party leader, I mean, I think that's probably the bit that, you know, has hung over him so much over the course, since he lost, of course, to Kemi Baden knock in 2024. And that's the bit that's really been around for him for such a long time. He's never been a man that's hit his ambitions. Anybody you speak to who knows Robert Generett could say that he is a hugely ambitious guy and has been from the outset, his supporters would say, you know, as Laura quite rightly says, he's been on a sort of journey to reach the point he is now, his critics might say he's been really opportunistic about where he's positioned himself at certain times because of his ambition, which has driven him so much. And then, of course, while Kemi Badenok won the leadership, and I think it would be be broadly accepted to some of the plenty in the Conservative Party, that initially she was quite kind of slow off the mark in settling into that leadership role. There snapping at her heels the whole time was the guy who had wanted the job, who was Robert Jenrick. And he kind of kept doing that, and with these social media videos, anything to kind of get his profile up and taking positions on things like, you know, he was sort of trying to lead the party on things like membership of the European Convention on Human Rights. You know, he was. He was sort of trying to direct the party from not quite the back seat, but, you know, maybe one of the seats slightly behind Kemi Badenoch or perhaps alongside when she was at the helm. And I think that's really characterised his position in the party since he lost that, that leadership race, which is why he's been the focus of so much attention and speculation about his future, because he's made no secret of any of that.

Laura Kuenssberg (23:59)

I think it's worth saying as well, while in the immediate aftermath of this story, it looks like Kami Badenoch has done something really strong, bold. Wow, she's flexing her muscles here. It also leaves her without one of the best known people who was a good communicator, somebody who's familiar to people who follow politics at least somebody who knows how to generate headlines, somebody who's been involved in lots of political campaigns. If you look across the people sitting behind her in Prime Minister's questions on that front bench, she's not chock a block with lots of household names who've got lots and lots of experience. Now partly that's because the Tories were in for 14 years and there was a sort of end of a generation feel and lots of people lost their seats. But it's also about who she's chosen to put into her team. What will she do with a space and a vacancy? Might she do a bigger reshuffle? I don't, you know, there are all, all these sort of questions about that. So that will have an impact also on her just at a time when she feels her team feel that they've been starting to make a bit of traction just in newscast styles. I have to go in just a second. I do just want to share that over the years there are two different nicknames that people have told me they have for Robert genre.

Alex Forsyth (25:05)

Okay.

Laura Kuenssberg (25:06)

One was Winnie the Pooh. Apparently he used to be known as Winnie the Pooh by some conservative friends. I don't know if he ever knew that. Well, it would be unkind. But now we're not on TV anymore. But because some people might suggest there might have been some kind of pre.

Adam Fleming (25:18)

Pre jabs. He was a. Some physical, heavier set person.

Laura Kuenssberg (25:21)

I was going to say there might have been something that reminded them of that. But also somebody in the, in the White hall who had worked with him as a minister told me that they always used to call him Little Bobby J.

Adam Fleming (25:32)

Anyway, that's quite effectual.

Laura Kuenssberg (25:33)

That's quite effective. Yes. Neither of them were spiteful nicknames unless.

Adam Fleming (25:36)

There'S some double meaning.

Alex Forsyth (25:37)

I've got a fair spiteful nickname as well, but I bet it's the same as Henry's. Go on, Henry.

Henry Zeffman (25:41)

Well, I was gonna say Robert generic.

Laura Kuenssberg (25:42)

Robert generic, yeah, that's the standard one. Is Robert generic.

Adam Fleming (25:46)

Except that one, that always struck me as just a play on words because actually he's not generic because he keeps changing.

Alex Forsyth (25:50)

But the argument I think was certainly at one point that he used to be, you know, that point when he was perhaps hadn't gone on his own political journey, as he would put it, you know, that he used to be perhaps a bit. Robert Genericart.

Adam Fleming (26:02)

The newscast team have done some more pun names. Beth says inspectori Morse.

Henry Zeffman (26:09)

Oh, yeah, I like that.

Adam Fleming (26:10)

Inspector Remorse.

Alex Forsyth (26:11)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (26:12)

Laura, you're so hard to press.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:15)

What's that got to do with Inspector?

Adam Fleming (26:17)

Oh, Tory. All right.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:20)

Okay. Yeah. Got it again.

Adam Fleming (26:22)

Works better when it's depending on what it's great for. The WhatsApp group chats. Not so much good for coming out of my mouth. Laura, I'm going to let you go because you've got to go and do your actual job. So lovely to see you.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:32)

Too late.

Alex Forsyth (26:32)

I know.

Adam Fleming (26:32)

On many platforms.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:34)

Many platforms. All right, bye.

Adam Fleming (26:35)

Everybody pops in to give you a visit.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:39)

Maybe he'll phone. Newscast live. Who knows? He's.

Adam Fleming (26:42)

I mean, he's been on here a few times before.

Alex Forsyth (26:44)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (26:44)

Anyway, Laura, I'll let you go.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:45)

Thank you.

Adam Fleming (26:46)

Bye, everybody.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:47)

Cheers.

Adam Fleming (26:47)

Henry, can I give you an alternative theory about actually Cami Badenok not being strong? And actually what she's done is she's making the best of a bad job and she's looked like she's acted decisively and she has acted decisively. She's not let it sort of dangle there for a while, but actually, she didn't have many other choices here.

Laura Kuenssberg (27:05)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (27:06)

And I'm thinking back to when I read Angela Merkel's autobiography last year. You are an impressive man. One of the few people in Britain.

Henry Zeffman (27:11)

In Britain, I'm sure.

Adam Fleming (27:13)

No, not in the original, I'm afraid. And she says one of her lessons from politics is you should never try and make the best of a bad situation because people always find you out in the end and they go, oh, hang on, this was actually a bad situation that you've tried to make look good.

Henry Zeffman (27:27)

I do think we should not lose track in this story, fascinating though it is, how it's all unfolding, of the fact that this is a very bad situation for the Conservative Party. It is a very bad situation for a Conservative Party leader who, as Laura was just saying there, has had the best few months of her leadership of the Conservative Party, a really good few months, and now finds herself, you know, dealing with the possibility, what she clearly believed was the inevitability of her main leadership rival declaring the Conservative Party dead and finished. That is clearly, overall, a very big and serious problem for a political party which has been known as the most successful political party in the democratic world. Just one thing, by the way, That I should say, just because this is a breaking story as we are talking about it. I think this is really interesting development. You mentioned, Adam, that Robert Jenrick is the MP for Newark in Nottinghamshire. Well, the Newark Conservative Party has just released a statement. Their chairman, Councillor Keith Gerling, has said Kemi Badenoch was absolutely right to take this decisive action. He says Genrick has let down his party, let down the activists who campaigned for him as a Conservative MP and let down the voters of Newark who re elected him in 2024. I think that's interesting. I think that's pretty crucial. I mean, again, it doesn't make the situation rosy for Kemi Badenoch. But that is the best possible response Kemi Badenoch could have had from a group of people who fundamentally, Robert Jenwich will know really well and have worked with really closely for more than a decade.

Adam Fleming (28:57)

And Alex then just speculating about Robert Jenrick's future, that would presumably make it quite hard for him to stand for election again for whatever party in Newark again, because it's going to get really, really vicious and nasty there.

Alex Forsyth (29:10)

Yeah, I mean, that's the New York Conservative.

Adam Fleming (29:11)

Lots of countrymen feel. Yeah. But if. Lot. If. If a lot of his countrymen in Newark feel very betrayed by him.

Alex Forsyth (29:17)

Yeah. I mean, he obviously wouldn't be able to stand for the Conservatives again, but certainly they wouldn't be welcoming of that. But yeah, I mean, I think there is always this question and it's people are elected for a party. You know, when people vote for, of course they vote for their local mp, but they vote for their local MP who is standing for a particular party. And there is always a really valid question about whether or not what people think when people move from that party or defect. And I keep saying it, but we don't know that Robert Jenricks defected. Yeah. Yet, you know, but when people cross the floor or change their colors and they go to. So there's always that question about should there be a by election, should they just be allowed to do that? Is that fair to their constituents that elected an MP of one party and ended up with an MP of another party. And I suspect there'll be quite active conversations about that side of it all if Robert Generic decides to go to Reform. And I think that is still the big question in all of this is what Robert Jenrick does now because, you know, I guess he's got two courses of action. Of course he could decide to go to Reform uk. What position would he have there? What would that mean for the other senior Figures in reform uk. If he did, would that all be a happy ship around that? Who knows? Big question mark. He could of course decide to deny this, as we're told that he did in that phone call with, with the Conservative Whip when he was phoned, be told that he was being booted out. You know, could he carry on denying this? Could he sit on the back benches and bide his time still? Who knows? You know, I think this is still a really, really open question. But. But you can imagine when any MP is involved in something as high profile as this, it's not going to land particularly well in their constituency.

Adam Fleming (30:43)

And after the breaking news comes the inevitable memes. So I think the Lib Dems got in there first with their traitor reference. And it's a picture of Robert Jenrick sat on the famous kind of diary room sofa in the castle with the famous purple caption on it and it says, robert Jenrick, wannabe PM traitor, and a reminder that he's 44 years old.

Alex Forsyth (31:04)

What would people do without traitor's references in political jargon at the moment?

Adam Fleming (31:07)

I mean, I know. I mean, I'm sure we'd find some other. I mean, normally it's things like Macbeth, isn't it? We go further back into the cultural record and it looks like Labour have managed to get in on the traitors act as well. And they've mocked up a picture of Kemi Badenok as if she sat round the round table and she's written who she's gonna chuck out on her little blackboard and it says Robert Jenrick. So plenty more memes coming everyone's way. So actually, should we just do a little reconvening of where we've got to? So Kemi Badenok put out this quite sensational video at 11 saying that she was sacking Robert Jenrick from the Shadow Cabinet, kicking him out of the parliamentary party. We then got Nigel Farage, who was doing an already scheduled press conference in Scotland, neither confirming or denying it, which is what he usually does when he's asked about defectors. But we think that he might have another press conference coming up at 4:30. Henry.

Henry Zeffman (31:58)

Yes, that's right, he does.

Adam Fleming (31:59)

I mean, it's just we don't know what it's about.

Henry Zeffman (32:01)

Well, I mean, Alex said that it was going to be about council elections. I mean, let's be real.

Alex Forsyth (32:06)

Not anymore.

Henry Zeffman (32:07)

It's now de facto a press conference about this. Whether Robert Jenrick's there or not. I guarantee you that every, or almost every question from journalists there will be about Robert Jenrick and dimensions to that. That's just the. The news gathering reality of this event.

Adam Fleming (32:21)

And I'm willing to do a deal with newscast listeners, which is if there is a big further development in this and story, and we do hear from Robert Jenrick himself, then we will do an extra little bonus episode for you to listen to on Thursday evening. Alex, just in normal run of the mill Daily Westminster News, you mentioned about the local elections being postponed in some areas. We now know how many English councils do not want to go ahead with the elections on May 7th. Most of them, because they're being reorganized.

Alex Forsyth (32:48)

Yeah. So 63 councils in England were given the option by the government to postpone the elections due for May for a year because, as you say, they're changing all their structures and some of the councils in their current form exist for much longer. Government's argument is, why would you elect councillors to councils that won't exist very long? You need time and space to sort all your new structures out before you have elections. Of the 63 that were given the option, around a third of those are going to ask for those elections to be postponed. The majority of them Labour, but not exclusively Labour led. Also some Liberal Democrat and Conservative councils are going down that route, despite the fact that the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party and Reform UK have all been highly critical of this decision by Labour to offer the councils this chance for a postponement, claiming that it's a sort of denial of democracy or Labour running scared of the voters. So that's where we're at the moment. So it's back to the Secretary of State, Steve Reid, who's going to make the final decision on which elections will or won't go ahead. But it looks as we speak right now, that around a third of those 63 councils, so just over 20, will probably have elections postponed for a year.

Adam Fleming (33:50)

So that's the normal Westminster news in addition to the dramatic, unexpected Westminster news. Alex, thank you very much.

Alex Forsyth (33:55)

Pleasure as ever.

Adam Fleming (33:56)

Henry. Good to catch up with you too.

Henry Zeffman (33:58)

Great to catch up with you, Adam. What a fascinating story.

Adam Fleming (34:00)

So interesting. So like, it's like a giant onion with many, many, many layers. Which actually was a knives out. Was a knives out mystery, wasn't it? So there we go. We got back to the detective vibe in the end. Right, thank you very much for watching and listening to this episode of Newscast. As promised, we will bring you an extra one on Thursday evening if there's a massive development in this already quite exciting story. Thank you very much for listening. Bye bye. Newscast.

Alex Forsyth (34:24)

Newscast from the BBC. Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast.

Laura Kuenssberg (34:29)

You clearly ooze stamina.

Adam Fleming (34:31)

Can I gently encourage you to subscribe.

Henry Zeffman (34:33)

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