Behind The Scenes Of Andy Burnham’s First Week As Prime Minister

Summary

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Newscast — "Behind The Scenes Of Andy Burnham’s First Week As Prime Minister"

BBC News, July 26, 2026

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Overview

In this special bonus episode, the Newscast team (Adam Fleming and Laura Kuenssberg) takes listeners behind the scenes of Andy Burnham’s dramatic and fast-paced first week as the UK’s new Prime Minister. Drawing on Laura’s unprecedented access to Burnham's movements and her in-depth interview with him, the episode unpacks the atmosphere inside No. 10, discusses Burnham’s communication style and political approach, and considers how he’s handling both domestic and international challenges. The hosts offer candid reflections on the government’s tone change, key strategic decisions, and what it really feels like inside the new "Number 10 North" in Manchester.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Atmosphere Inside Number 10 as Burnham Becomes PM

• Historic Moment:

  • Laura vividly describes the first moments inside Number 10 after Burnham’s arrival, highlighting the energy and emotion (04:05):

    "It was incredible... crowds of officials whooping and cheering and applauding... seeing Andy Burnham and his wife walk up that corridor, I thought he was going to shake everyone's hand. I thought we were going to be there for about 10 hours." — Laura (04:05)

  • The symbolic weight of hearing “Prime Minister” for the first time (05:23).
  • Burnham’s immediate communication style:

    “Yes, it’s a big job, but what a welcome. What a team. I feel so supported... I just want to get people in this country to a better place.” — Laura, relaying Burnham’s words (06:09)

• Approach to Communication:

  • Burnham’s ease with cameras marks a distinct break from his predecessors. His team sees open communication as both a political advantage and an obligation.
  • The value of “taking everyone along for the ride” to maintain public trust, especially when making tough choices (07:12).

2. Burnham’s Attitude to Power and Public Engagement

• Comms as Governance:

  • Burnham’s style is fundamentally about bringing people with him and communicating transparently.
  • Reflection on authenticity vs. political theatre:

    “He has this sort of authentic desire... and he doesn’t really care if there’s a camera there or not.” — Laura (06:08)

• Hope vs. Fear Messaging:

  • The hosts discuss how Burnham’s core message is about hope and lightness, rather than fear (09:27).

    “There’s a thing about wearing your power lightly that I think Andy Burnham is trying to do, or is doing quite naturally.” — Laura (10:21)

• Reality Check:

  • Good communication is not a guarantee of government success. Laura stresses that “seven days of good comms” is not a “guarantee that this is going to be a successful administration.” (10:48)
  • The transition is an opportunity for Labour: “It gives Labour a second chance at a first impression.” (11:13)

3. Foreign Policy and Handling Donald Trump

• Building the Relationship:

  • Laura’s interview section with Burnham reveals his careful approach to Donald Trump:

    “My strength always is in remaining close to people, close to the public. That will not change because I'm Prime Minister.” — Andy Burnham (12:03) “All leaders have to do that. You have to defend your own national interest before anything else. That’s what you’re required to do if you're to do this job properly...” — Andy Burnham (12:35)

• Notable Exchange:

  • Laura presses Burnham on whether he can trust Trump; Burnham tactfully doesn’t commit, highlighting the complexity of international relations for a new PM (11:18–12:54).
  • Comparison to Keir Starmer, who answered “yes” to trusting Trump, highlighting contrast in styles (13:02).

• Developing a Statesman Language:

  • Adam and Laura note Burnham “is still finding a language to talk about international affairs as Prime Minister. He’s not quite as fluent... as on home turf topics.” (16:45)

4. Domestic Policy & Difficult Decisions

• Defense Spending:

  • The burning question: Will Burnham meet the NATO target of 3.5% of GDP on defence by 2035?
  • Burnham artfully avoids making a firm promise:

    “I am absolutely committed to what we've promised our NATO partners, and that is my commitment. Now, we've got to work out the way of doing that...” — Andy Burnham (22:21)

  • Laura translates: “That was a. No, I'm not going to commit to that yet.” (22:42)

• Breathing Space and Decision-Making:

  • Burnham is using the defence investment plan as “breathing space” — a delay tactic to avoid immediate hard commitments (22:50–23:21).

5. The “Mandate” Question & Election Timing

• Calls for a General Election:

  • Laura asks Burnham if he will rule out an early general election, given he doesn’t have a national mandate (23:44).

    “There is no early general election... what I most need to do is get Britain focused on getting the country back where it should be, getting it working.” — Andy Burnham (24:05–24:49)

    • Pressed for clarity, Burnham explicitly rules it out: “I'll rule it out. Yeah. There’s no early general election.” (25:09)
  • This is his first explicit rejection of snap election calls, opting for space to govern and shut down speculation (25:11–28:40).

• Political Risks:

  • Discussion about the political calculus behind ruling out an election now and how this could come back if he changes his mind.

6. Number 10 North — Government Moves Northward

• Impressions of Number 10 North (Manchester HQ):

  • The new setup feels like a tech startup with “better quality budget furniture,” not like historic Downing Street (29:05).
  • Despite skepticism, Laura feels the intent behind it is serious — with Cabinet Ministers and senior officials working there (29:42).

• Fiscal Devolution:

  • Discussion of plans for local fiscal power, including allowing mayors to spend portions of local income tax or moving significant departmental functions to Manchester (31:22–32:12).
  • Big test: whether Whitehall barriers to local spending will actually be removed.

• Symbolism and Practicalities:

  • Andy Burnham’s focus on pace — “A massive difference in everything we are doing already, which is the pace.” (33:32)

7. Lighthearted and Human Moments

• Scampi Fries & Relatability:

  • Burnham’s “relatability” includes championing pub snacks like scampi fries, which the hosts joke about, underscoring his everyman appeal (09:05).

• Pets at Number 10:

  • Teasing about Burnham’s dog Axel joining Downing Street, with behind-the-scenes pet content promised for social media (36:28).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Laura Kuenssberg on the first moments inside No. 10:

  • “That was amazing to see that. And, you know, however many you see outside... that's still a very profound moment. But to see on the inside was really very special.” (04:44)

• Andy Burnham on his approach to Trump and leadership:

  • “I always get my strength from the public, from being with people. That's not going to change just because I'm Prime Minister.” (12:03)

• Laura on Burnham’s difference from Starmer:

  • “He’s in Downing Street because he’s a great communicator, and Keir Starmer was not... The public were never really in love with Keir Starmer.” (19:09)

• On Number 10 North's authenticity:

  • “They obviously mean it. Meaning things and doing things are different, but they mean it...” (29:42)

• On the administration’s new pace:

  • “A massive difference in everything we are doing already, which is the pace. That's the word they use was pace.” (33:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:05 — Laura’s behind-the-scenes account of Burnham and his wife entering No. 10
• 06:09 — On Burnham’s communication style and symbolic language as PM
• 09:27 — Messaging of hope versus fear in Burnham’s politics
• 10:21 — “Wearing power lightly” and risks of relying on good comms
• 11:18–12:54 — Burnham’s response on Trump, national interest, and trust
• 16:45 — Hosts assess Burnham’s “three gears” in the interview on domestic and foreign affairs
• 22:21 — Burnham’s careful (non-)commitment to the NATO defence target
• 24:05–25:09 — Explicitly rules out early general election
• 29:42–33:32 — Detailed impressions of Number 10 North, fiscal devolution plans, and the new “pace” of government
• 36:28 — Lighthearted banter about Burnham’s dog, Axel, and pet journalism

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Takeaways

• Burnham’s first week is marked by rapid, visible change in tone, pace, and public engagement from No. 10.
• He’s using media access and authenticity as political tools but is aware of the risks.
• On substantive policy (defence, elections), he’s cautious, buying time for bigger decisions while promising fresh approaches.
• “Number 10 North” is both symbol and experiment, with tentative but meaningful moves towards decentralisation.
• Underlying all this is the sense of a government in transition — ambitious to be seen differently, but not yet proven.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[C]

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[A]

Slight change of plan. Thanks to Laura.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

I don't mean that in like a. That's why it came up slightly accusatory, didn't it? It's like. It's good. Shall we explain what has happened?

[D]

God, not her again. I thought we got rid of her for this summer. Yeah, nice to see you too.

[A]

So I thought I had done my duty this weekend by doing two episodes of old newscast about the 1997 election.

[D]

Excellent.

[A]

With Jeremy vine and Kirsty Warwick, which was quite a ride. Quite a ride. Their memories were still strong, if not fully complete of that period. I'm telling you, I gotta tell them

[D]

that you said that.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it turns out we should be able to listen to this. And then it turns out you'd been interviewing Andy burnham in number 10 north on Friday.

[D]

I had been. And behind the door in number 10 on Monday and behind the stage at the TUC in London on Friday. And it was all. All throughout this, I was thinking, what happens if I jump out?

[A]

Surprise. So just explain what we're doing. There's some clips of your interview which are out and about now on Sunday.

[F]

Yes.

[D]

So we're talking at 102 on Sunday. Yes.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're going to play them. You can do some of the behind the scenes. Goss.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Is that word? Has anyone said that since the 90s?

[D]

Kind of smash hits, isn't it? That's, you know.

[A]

And then we' put out the whole interview in the newscast feed on Monday and then you'll be able to sit down and watch it on TV on Monday night.

[F]

You will.

[B]

And.

[D]

Or on iPlayer from 6:00am actually, if you're really keen. It will be on iPlayer at 6 in the morning tomorrow morning.

[A]

So many options in this. On demand.

[D]

So many options. I know, and breakfast TV and all. Yeah, so it's, it's. You'll be able to. And I, and I would say this, wouldn't I? But actually, given that everybody, including us, has been going on and on and on and on and on for about the last six weeks, saying, goodness me, well, there's so many things that we don't know about Antiburnum, actually, to sit down and talk to him for half an hour, I think people will find illuminating. That does not also mean, and I'm sure there will be newscasters who throw their wet sponges at the telly and say, why didn't you ask them about this? Why didn't you ask them about that? Even when you're lucky enough to get half an hour, you still cannot talk about everything unless you, you know, you sort of fill in a. You could do 500 questions with one word answers, but there might not be very much point doing that. So I'm well aware there will be things that people care passionately about that we weren't able to get to. Or indeed, you know, we could have done one subject. We could have done half an hour just about foreign policy, for example, or half an hour just about the economy. But we tried to pick what we thought were the most important issues that he hadn't already talked about. So that was our sort of guiding principle, if you like.

[A]

And that's what you'll hear on this

[D]

episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[C]

Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[E]

You know, I like my buses. I'll come on to them.

[D]

I see that he was, I guess,

[C]

the mayor of a town.

[D]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[E]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[D]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall?

[A]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.

[D]

And it's Laura in the newscast studio.

[A]

And we're recording this special bonus episode of Newscast at just gone 2:00 clock on Sunday afternoon. So, Laura, you laid out some of the moments that you were there behind the scenes of. Is there one particular moment that you think sums up the quite big thing that's just happened in British politics in the last nine days?

[D]

Oh, look, I mean, it was a incredible, I have to say, just as a citizen, I mean, let alone as a journalist, to be inside number 10 in sort of observing the crowds, genuinely, crowds of officials whooping and cheering and applauding, crammed into the Downing street sort of historic hall with the black and white checkered Floor and then the yellow corridor, walking all the way up to the Cabinet Room. And we were positioned just outside the Cabinet Room. And seeing Andy Burnham and his wife walk up that corridor, I thought he was going to shake everyone's hand. I thought we were going to be there for about 10 hours. He shook nearly everyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But to see that and to see the door open on the inside and the two of them just standing there, all the camera bulbs flashing, popping behind them, that was. That was amazing to see that. And, you know, however many you see outside, and goodness knows you and I have both seen a lot, that's still a very profound moment. But to see on the inside was really very special. I mean, as a journalist and as a historian, which I. Not really, but I did history at university, that was an amazing thing to see.

[A]

And then, of course, the moment he then walks into the Cabinet Room is when he gets told things like, here's how the nuclear deterrent works, here's how your life is going to change and how you'll never have a moment to yourself for as long as you're in this job.

[D]

But even before he went, he stopped and had a quick chat with us. So we filmed him come in and then he stopped. And so I'd said, oh, Prime Minister. Which is a. You know, that's always a moment anyway, the first time someone gets called Prime Minister, I mean, I'm sure that the King. Would the King say, thank you, Prime Minister? I don't. I don't know. Did his wife call him Prime Minister in the car on the way back from the Palace? Who knows? That was just. That felt very sort of symbolic. But even at that moment, if you were a sort of student of comms, and we talk about comms, probably too much, but they. It does really matter, I have to say. He knew the camera was there and he played it like a blinder because his words were, yes, it's a big job, but what a welcome. And then he turned around and said, what? What a team.

[A]

Yeah, look at that.

[D]

Other than him, right. And said, I feel so supported. I know it's a big job, I know it's a difficult job, but I feel so supported. And then said, and I just want to get people in this country to a better place. I just want to help people with the cost of living. And then, you know, it was a. What made great with people over time is that. And Burnham has this sort of authentic desire, sort of to narrate his own life. Do you know what I mean? And I think it's a natural and genuine thing. And he doesn't really care if there's a camera there or not. Well, maybe it's not that he doesn't care. I don't think it changes when there's a camera there or not.

[F]

Really.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say the fact that he was happy to have you along for this ride. Cause actually, most previous prime ministers, I'm sure you asked them to do this and they probably said no because their priority might have been just getting on with the job. But with Andy Barnum, he's got a joint priority, which, as you said, is to communicate with people about the job.

[D]

Exactly. And I think it's twofold. I think one is that he is a good, natural communicator. So he's not worried about a camera being there.

[A]

It's a strength or a weakness.

[D]

There are lots of politicians who are exactly. Who see cameras as a threat and their team see camera as a threat. And it's like, let's keep them away because they might catch him doing something wrong or she might say something wrong way, and that would all be a disaster. So, no, you could only have four minutes instead of five. So I think there's one. There's a. He's so easy with cameras on. It doesn't. It doesn't bother him. It doesn't stop him being himself or doing the things that he wants to do. The second thing is, I think he's the kind of politician, and I think, particularly in the 2000s, I think he has a view, and his team clearly has a view, is not just that it matters, but also that it is a political advantage, maybe even an obligation to be sort of taking us all along for the ride, because they know it's going to be hard. And if you have people with you, they're probably more likely to give you a fair hearing if you're going to have to do something like increase their tax or cut a public service. And.

[A]

And I not hit a target or

[D]

not hit a target on defense spending. You know, that's that thing of having people alongside. And one of the things that will stay with me, I think, from the interview that we'll see. I think he might use this quite a lot in the time, in the times ahead. And I was asking about Donald Trump and how he would handle Donald Trump. And of course, Donald Trump is one of the most powerful people in the world. He has to have a working relationship with him. Donald Trump is also not popular in the uk, by and large. Not saying nobody likes him. And he said an interesting thing. He said, I always get my strength from the public, from being with people. That's not going to change just because I'm Prime Minister. So being alongside people, if you think of comms as part of that, being alongside people, having people with you, trying to take people with you, that's not just, oh, let's have a funny video, or let's launch a thousand memes, or let's have a joke about the stink

[A]

of scampi fries, which all things he has done.

[D]

Fair play, right? I mean, fair play. I love scampi fries. I used to have them in my school lunchbox. Not everybody thought that was a fair thing for everybody else sitting in the lunch hall.

[A]

But, you know, I was in the pub on Saturday night and we got scampi fries. So presumably the sales of scampi fries have gone through the roof in the last couple of days, at least among people who consume Andy Burnham videos and then act on them.

[D]

But it's interesting, though, isn't it, because I think, you know, we often. Politics often ends up being ridiculously binary, doesn't it? Someone's either a joke figure or a serious figure, or someone's either a goodie or a baddie or a hero or a villain. And there's only two real core political messages ever in the history of the world. Which hope, come with me and things will be better, or fear, which is stick with me or choose me because. Or else it's going to be appalling. Yeah, Andy Burnham is definitely in the Hope you change the camp. Right. That's his word. The challenge for him is to look, is to inhabit an incredibly serious job with authority and with clarity, but also not lose that ease and that kind of lightness of touch. But it's like I thought a lot of what our old mate Cat has said. You remember she used to say this about what we got up to one Brexit.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You don't have to take yourself seriously when you're doing a serious job. And there's a thing about wearing your power lightly that I think Andy Barnum is trying to do, or I think he's sort of doing quite naturally. That said, there is no way that seven days of good comms is any remote, teeny tiny guarantee that this is going to be a successful administration. And I just want to, before we get people going, oh, it's all soft and you've just had fun making nice tv. This is a. It's been fascinating to have bits and pieces of access and to see him on the move. And yes, he's great on, on, he's great at handling cameras and all of those kinds of things. None of that is a guarantee that this will be an effective and successful government. But it is already a different government. And I think Paddy and I talked about this a couple of weeks ago. The best description of this was from a, from a cabinet minister said to me, it gives Labor a second chance at a first impression.

[A]

Right. Let's listen to that conversation you had with him about how he'll deal with Donald Trump. We've previewed it. Here is the real thing.

[F]

Do you think that you can trust Donald Trump?

[E]

Well, I've had one phone call and I always treat people as I find them and it was a good exchange. It was, as I said before, it was a warm exchange. So I am that kind of politician. I always will see judge people as I find them. I've lived my whole life by that. And I found him to be really warm on Monday. But obviously, you know, we will continue to build the relationship as we go forward.

[F]

But as things stand, you're not sure. So you're saying you'll feel your way, you're not sure at this stage that you can place your trust in him as a fellow.

[E]

It's a changing world, isn't it? And you just have to obviously call things as they, as they develop and in that change. I can't at any point say that I won't take a different opinion from him, that I will need to voice a different opinion that is right for Britain and I will do that. My strength always is in remaining close to people, close to the public. That will not change because I'm prime minister.

[F]

So you'd be willing to call Donald Trump out if you think that's the right thing?

[E]

Of course. I mean, you've got to go into this. All leaders have to do that. You have to defend your own national interest before anything else. That's what you're required to do if you're to do this job properly. I will always put Britain's interests first.

[A]

So, yeah, is that, do we call that a pre love actually moment in reference to that terrible political cliche from the film where Hugh Grant calls out the American president.

[D]

I think we call it a human sounding expression of a very difficult balance. You know, he's clearly determined not to fall into the trap that Kemer jumped into. Leapt into with good success at the beginning, by the way. Just saying is how close can I get to this guy? Can I do all the right things? Say all the right things, pick his

[A]

papers up when he drops them, invite

[D]

him to see the King, all of those things. Andy Branham is not going to do that. And I think there's evidently quite a deliberate dis. I'm going to keep. There was a mood of I'm going to keep my distance. Unlike the former guy, at the same time he played his hole, which, again, I think is true. I'm pragmatic. I know I have to have a relationship with this guy. I took him as I found him. We had a good first conversation. But, you know, to be asked twice, do you trust him or do you think you could trust him? And he just didn't. He just wouldn't say yes and he wouldn't say no. And, and one of the reasons I asked that question so explicitly is because a few months ago I asked Keir Starmer, do you trust Donald Trump? And he said, yes, I do. So it really highlighted the, the difference with approach that they're gonna take

[A]

because some people might say, why should a British Prime Minister, is it obligatory for them to trust the American President? And then is it obligatory for a British Prime Minister to trust President Trump?

[D]

Well, put it this way, our security services in the UK and America work absolutely hand in glove on all sorts of things that are really important and really secret that we don't know about. Our militaries also work absolutely hand in glove around the world doing various different things, some of which we know about, I'm sure, some of which we don't know about. It is very challenging for political leaders to have solid relationships if they really feel that they don't trust each other. Now, I'm not saying Andy Brown doesn't trust Donald Trump, and he answered that question in a way that I think a lot of people will find quite reasonable, which is like, well, I have basically hardly know him. I only just met him. You know, I trust you, I've known you for 15 years, or something like that. Or would I trust someone if I had one phone call around them and their reputation is to be somebody that changes with the wind? I don't know.

[A]

And also, I suppose, harking back to when you ask Starmer if he trusts Trump, I mean, he certainly acted in a way where he was calling Trump out in the later stages of his premiership.

[D]

He did. And I don't know if, if, you know, if three weeks ago he'd said, kier Starmer, do you trust Donald Trump? He might not have given the same answer. But it's not that I can I forgive me, I can't put a date on when it was. I asked him that question. But it's a hard. It's a hard, but an important question, I think, for any British Prime Minister, given the strengths of the very real links between our countries. And if also you are to believe in the power of cemetery and one to one relationships, that's me to you, you to me, me to you. That's about trust and connection and that's not about teams of Sherpas and officials working on documents and this, that and the other. So it's part of the transition from Andy Burnham being a very successful politician in one part of the country to becoming a world leader. Because world leaders need to work out relationships where they can trust each other. Doesn't mean they have to be best friends. But that was one of the other reasons why we asked that because it's part of his. Part of his transition to becoming a world leader, not just a successful politician in one part of the country who basically is a. What's that quote, you know, hail fellow well met. Is that who thinks. Who's a glass half pool person who, who. Part of their whole shtick is I can connect with anyone. I love talking to people. That's all great. That's not the same as being a world leader. So it was interesting to ask and I thought it was an interesting answer, actually.

[A]

And also from, from listening to that section, you can hear he is still finding a language to talk about international affairs as Prime Minister.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And he's not quite as fluent, he's not quite as comfortable, he's not quite as off the cuff as he is in later sections of the interview where he's talking about his home turf. So interesting hearing him sort of like growing into the job and I think

[D]

the way I've written about it for, for tomorrow, the way I came up with this morning, there are three gears. Basically, that interview, you've got a gear. When he's on his familiar turf, social care, devolution, power around the country, people having had a hard time in his view, the 80s being a turning point for the wrong. Very familiar, very flu and very kind of off the cuff, there's a sort of second gear where there are things where he faces actual decisions that aren't necessarily things he's dealt with before. So on immigration. Oh, well, I think consultation. Yeah. He talks about having new eyes and I'm not going to give it all away, but there are various issues that haven't specifically been on his desk where waivers is the Wrong word. But he sort of says, well, I'll have a look at that and I'll have a look at this. The other thing that's interesting about that is it suggested to me he might actually be quite willing to deviate from quite a lot of what Kirstama was. Was doing. But that was a sort of second gear. And then the third gear was then. Then on things like how would you deal with Donald Trump, how would you deal with other world leaders where he definitely was much less familiar and it'd be interesting to see how people to respond to that. So I think I, I suspect some of his political enemies. I mean, the opposition parties maybe shouldn't always use the word enemies.

[A]

It's a bit new politics.

[D]

Oh, new politics, yeah. Some of the opposition parties might leap on some of those bits and say, oh, look, he looked completely out of his depth. I think some newscasters watch it and think, well, fair enough. He's actually is giving an honest answer, which is, well, I'm not really sure yet. Perhaps we'll see. But it was interesting. It was very interesting. And how quickly will he, you know, for Andy Burnham's supporters, it would be a sort of disaster if by Christmas he's into. Just scripted.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Our relationship with allies around the world. Because Paddy's not here, I've got to do the impression our relationships, allies around the world are very important and I will be continuing strategic decisions in these challenging times.

[A]

We agreed to keep touch.

[D]

Right. That's a disaster.

[A]

You start sending like an email if you.

[D]

Exactly. If you start sending like a press release with lines to take, as they're called, that's a disaster for Andy Burnham supporters. He's in Downing street because he's a great communicator and Keir Starmer was not a great communicator. That's basically the core of what, why this has all happened. Of course there are policies that went wrong, political mistakes, da, da, da, da. But what I would put at the top of the list about why this has happened is because the public were never really in love with Keir Starmer. And even if they had been, they certainly quickly concluded that he was not going to be their guy. Not everybody, newscasters, I know some people have different views, but that was the consensus. Labor has concluded that Andy Burnham could be the guy for many millions of people in a very tricky political world for them. And that's basically what it comes. Comes down to.

[A]

So earlier on, I alluded to the NATO defense spending target.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

3.5% of GDP. So the total economy of the country on defense by 2035. I have to admit, I only recently realized it's 3.5. 35.

[D]

A 3.5 and 35.

[A]

I only noticed that last week.

[D]

That's right. But the John Healing.

[A]

Good job we're not doing this in 2040.

[D]

Well, we might be by then, who knows? Yeah, the. But the Defense Secretary who was John Healey quit Kir Summer's government because not only would Kir Summer not spell out how to get to 3.5 and 35, he would not commit to three by 30. And that was John Healey's unmet demand. John Haley now, of course, is Andy Burnham's Chancellor, which you can read either in a way that says, wow, that means Andy Burn is putting Defense really at the top of the list, because he's obviously going to give John Healy all the money he wants, or he's going to instruct John Healing to find all that cash. Or it's clever politics, because he's saying, john Healy, you wanted all that money for this.

[A]

It's now your problem, too.

[D]

You're the one who's got to find it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You've been the asker, now you're the finder.

[D]

Exactly. Hunter, gatherer or whatever. Hunter or farmer. Oh, anyway, forget my metaphors, but when I asked Lord or Serf, when I asked Andy Burnham whether or not he was going to give John Healey and Donald Trump what he wanted, because he's also after more cash for defence from European countries, this is what he said

[F]

when your Chancellor was Defence Secretary. He said very clearly, in black and white, that our country would not be safe unless the Prime Minister committed to spending 3% of national income on defence by 2030. Will you make that promise to keep us safe here and now?

[E]

Well, I appointed my new Chancellor very aware of what he had said about the critical importance of defence spending and the position that he had taken about that. The first challenge facing us both is to ensure that the Defence investment Plan is fully funded. And that's the thing that's right in front of us, and we need to work that through as we go towards the budget later this year.

[F]

He said specific. There's a specific commitment that John Healy put in black and white, which was it has to be 3% by 2030. Will you commit to that yet or not?

[E]

I am absolutely committed to what we've promised our NATO partners, and that is my. Is my commitment. Now, we've got to work out the way of doing that, but I do not want to see Britain regarded as somebody, a country that people can't trust anymore.

[D]

And to translate because that was a bit more political type speak than you might have from Andy Burnham. That was a. No, I'm not going to commit to that yet.

[A]

But isn't it interesting because we were discussing on newscast on Friday the clever framing of having some what he calls breathing space where you can do these sort of short term announcements and then you go to your 10 year plan which is the longer term thing. You can see he's using the defense investment plan which is a plan that still needs some work to actually deliver it. He can use that as the breathing space on defense to say that's what I'm focusing on. And then there's a longer term thing on defense that you can just wait and see and then judge me then. So it's kind of the same. The same tactic used. Used again.

[D]

Yeah, it is. And that's, you know there is a reason why. Well there are lots of reasons why politicians often use kind of plans and reviews is partly because that's sometimes you really should work out the right thing to do before you do it. When you talk talking about taxpayers, billions of pounds sometimes frankly they are about delaying big difficult political decisions.

[A]

Right, let's talk about another decision should he have an early general election. And here is your conversation with Andy Burnham about that.

[F]

You say you coming to power will be the biggest change this country's seen in four decades. Thing is 25,000 people voted for you in Makerfield. The 48 million people in the electorate in this country haven't had a chance to have a say on any of your plans. Do you rule out having a general election before 2029?

[E]

There is no early general election. And the thing I would say to you is 20 plus how many million people you just mentioned voted for a manifesto. We're in a parliamentary democracy. So that is what people voted for and I will honour that manifesto. And and you know, obviously I have faced the public in Makerfield at the time I stood forward in the by election. People say oh my goodness, that constituency voted reform in May. That's a risk. I went and faced the public and I went out onto those doorsteps. So you know I have done that. I've got the support of colleagues in Parliament and it's a parliamentary democracy that we're in.

[F]

Rule it out.

[E]

Well, I'm going to rule it out. Yeah. There's no early general election. I don't think people want it, you know. Well the opinion polls might say there's A. There's some people do, some people don't. But the thing is, I just think what I most need to do is get Britain focused on getting the country back where it should be, getting it working.

[A]

Right. What should we take away from that?

[D]

So I think we should take away that Andy Branham wants breathing space. He doesn't want the immediate judgment of the public. He wanted to. He wants to shut down. Any speculation about it is really what I took from it, because politicians, of course, can change their mind. But that's the first time that he's explicitly ruled out having an election. So hitherto, he'd said things like, there's not an early election. There isn't an early election. There doesn't have to be an election. But it's the first time he's explicitly ruled it out.

[A]

Was he ruling it out, though?

[D]

Because he said, I'll rule it out.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Did he actually say, I'll rule it out?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

So what happened, though? And this is. I was going to say this in a sec. What happened was I asked him, no, no, no, no, no. But it's pertinent to. It's absolutely pertinent, somehow, sometimes what happens in an interview. So I said, would you rule out having a general election? You don't, you know, you don't have a mandate from the country. And his first answer, as we've just heard, was, well, people were to vote. To me, in Makerfield, we're a parliamentary democracy. I don't have to have an election. So there weren't. There isn't. There isn't an early election.

[A]

And I said, this is a statement of the current state of affairs, not actual pledge.

[D]

So I, being me, said, but do you rule it out? And he slightly moves in his chair. And I think he decided down in there. I could tell he said, yeah, we'll rule it out. And I think he. It seemed to me he decided in that moment to just say, yeah, you know what? I will, probably, because, God, yeah, I'm a canny politician and if I. I don't. Yeah, I can imagine the headline's going to be, Burnham Refuses to rule out general Election. Opposition party start banging the drum louder and louder and louder to have an election. And before you know it, he's got a whole disaster story. And the first week becomes all about the first week, month becomes all about speculation over a general election. And, oh, we've been there before, haven't we? Wasn't there another labor prime minister who took over without a general election and got into A terrible spiral over whether

[A]

or not Cabinet of right now.

[D]

It may be that that's not what happened in his brain in that matter of moments in the election. He may have thought, actually, yeah, well, she asked me if I can rule out Prime Minister.

[A]

Let us know if you're listening.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. But it seemed, it seemed to me actually that he did kind of think actually, yeah. Do you know what? Let's just, just, let's just shut that down, make it go away for now. Politicians can change their minds. Right.

[A]

And also, if he does change his mind, he's given you, me and everyone else a very good script to throw back at him because he said he wants to be building bridges among. In politics.

[B]

So.

[A]

And working with other parties rather than trying to kill them off. And also he thinks an election is a divisive thing for the country at the moment. So if he were to change his mind in the next year, say. Yes, that would be chucked back at him.

[D]

It would be chucked back at him. But if he were to change his mind for good reason and then win his own mandate, I think he wouldn't really worry about what he'd said to me on the 24th of July, 2026. But I don't, you know, I don't know. But also at the moment, you know, the Labour Party, I think is pretty sure cash. They're. But, but the, the polling suggests. Doesn't suggest that Burnham is manifed for heaven and going to soar out all Labor's problems at all. But the polling suggests very, very clearly and focus groups would say this as well, that it. There is a window when people are looking at labor again and they have managed to catch a bit of. They've managed to create a bit of what, Patty. Also the big mo, you know, they have created a bit of momentum. That's what he's saying for now. And he did actually about explicitly, explicitly

[A]

shut it down as we draw this episode to a close. Tell me about number 10 North. Because the, the bulk of the program and the main. I mean, sit down bit.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Was in number 10 north. What is it like there?

[D]

Well, it's very.

[A]

Does it feel in any way like number 10?

[D]

No, it doesn't at all. So, you know, number 10 is a 17th century Georgian terrace, which is very beautiful, but frankly a bit chunky around the edges and all sorts of warrens and corridors and it's an amazing place, but it's a bit like being in a kind of dusty museum.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

In, you know, a part of England where not Many people go to Visit and Number 10 north was like being in a, it was sort of like being in a. Trying to be quite cool tech startup that had been furnished by Ikea. It's a bit like being in this

[A]

studio but with better quality budget furniture.

[D]

I'm being a bit daft. I mean I, I, it felt, did

[A]

it feel, because let me put it in another way, did it feel like a genuine second center of government or did it feel like people have been using this phrase Potemkin, you know, that whole thing from Russia?

[D]

No, I, I thought there were when I walked in and we were very lucky to be able to get in, have a look around, see people. There were several cabinet ministers who were there working there from that day. There were also some very senior officials, people who I've kind of bumped into or have known their faces from knocking around the last few years who were working from there. The Prime Minister's in office, deputy, his deputy Chief of Staff has an office next to him. Outside his door was a, was a desk which is going to be the desk of Kevin Lee who's Andy Bur of sort of key long term, long time political conciliary if you want to sort of adviser and friend there. You know, it obviously is a place where they have serious intentions, that serious work is going to be done there. What does that translate? Translate into Heaven only knows. Yeah, but they, they mean it. Meaning things and doing things are, are different but they, but they mean it. And I, I think the real test will, will be not about the building, it's whether they do the things like removing all the checks, the white hall imposed checks about how mayors are meant to spend money, for example. So, you know, mayors will all tell you often the money's sitting there, it's in a pot. But we have to persuade someone in Whitehall that we're going to spend it. We have to kind of jump through 56 hoops about how we spend it and that takes ages. So the money just sits there locked in a piggy bank and we can't get our fingers on it. If they sweep away those rules and it's that they give the mayor more power to decide of the money. There's chatter that they might allow mayors to spend portions of income tax that's

[A]

raised in their area, which Rachel Reeves started looking at in the last budget,

[D]

that would be, it's the fancy name is fiscal devolution. That would be a big deal. It would be a big deal if they started to move big bits of other government departments there There was a suggestion knocking around, and I'm not putting strength on this, but there was a suggestion knocking around that departments that look only at English issues, some of them could have more chunks of them moved to Manchester. So Department for Education, for example, that deals with education in England, in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, it's run differently. So I think, you know, I think we're a long way from knowing how significant it's going to be. And of course, there's lots and lots of skepticism about it, but I think it's. Did you see about a building, did

[A]

you see the replica number 10 Downing street door?

[D]

I did see the replica number 10 door, which they were keen to point out to me they hadn't paid to have made. Someone said they thought it was maybe done for the 2012 Olympics or something. So the way they're trying to say to me, we haven't spent money on

[A]

having pretend this was number two lying around already.

[D]

It was knocking around somewhere. So. So, I don't know. I mean, it. I mean, it's. They've set up something real very fast and. And it exists. And, you know, having covered government for years and years and years and years and years where the exceptionist thinks happening quickly. Anything happening quickly. Yeah, is a real statement of intent. And actually, one cabinet minister said to me, there is a massive difference in everything we are doing already, which is the pace. That's the word they use was pace. So, you know, forget all the. Forget the comms, forget the vision, forget the policies, forget the manifesto and all the rest. One of the criticisms, and I think fairly, that was very regularly leveled at how Keir Starmer ran the country, was that the pace was slow and it took him a long time to make decisions. The defense investment plan, for example, I was like, nearly a year after it was meant to emerge. It was eight months or something. I can't remember the exact date. And, you know, there are ministers buzzing around place going, this is just completely different already. Of course, they're all partly saying that because they want to be sounding like they're impressing the new boss and saying nice things to journalists who will then repeat them.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But someone else who works in government, who's not a crawling minister said to me, the pace is very different too. So there you go.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I think that's a kind statement of intent. But look, we'll. We'll see. We've got no idea. And I want to, you know, make this really clear. It was. There are. There have been many really quite impressive things about Burnham's operation in the first week. And it is clearly at this stage a more impressive comms operation and a more sure fitted political operation than met much of the last couple of years. That doesn't mean that this administration is going to be a success.

[A]

Two observations just about the machinery of government related to the number 10 thing. First of all, number 10 north, the building it's in, there's an outpost of GCHQ.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

The listing service there already. So it's obviously quite a secure building. It was already there.

[D]

I'd be shot if I told you about it. But yeah, the security's.

[A]

Yeah, hopefully not. And then the second thing is that there's a slug and lettuce on the ground floor.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Isn't there? Because it's the building. It's opposite the town hall.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a massive building site at the moment.

[D]

Yeah. It's right in the middle of Manchester. So I think from a security point of view, it's probably not an ideal outpost to have. And the idea is not that it would be long term, but they're building

[A]

a new, longer term government campus, aren't they?

[D]

By this and Coetzee, I think. But they. But also in that building also still has kind of weddings and things. So the people are going to go on social media saying, oh, Andy Burnham, I hope you're not going to try and cancel my wedding. So there's a whole.

[A]

Or pop in, like Trump does. People get married at Mar a Lago and Trump pops up in their wedding. Right. Just to finish off. So basically just the timeline is you're still finishing off the program, which is going to be on Monday night.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And then we'll get to see more clips of it and you can watch it on iPlayer from 6 o' clock in the morning.

[D]

So the whole interview and more of our behind the scenes filming, including that we were backstage literally when he just came off the stage, having just been elected Labour leader and all that. I mean, it's. If you. I think it's. I would say this. I think it's really interesting because it does lift the lid on just a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. But obviously the most important part of that is our interview. The full half hour will be on iPlayer from six in the morning. The full interview will be on Sounds in your normal newscast feed and final plug. Also, I'm writing a big long piece about sort of what it was like, where I might more articulately express some of the things I've been rambling about for the last 25 minutes.

[A]

If this is you being inarticulate, I'm like, I need to up my game. Any pet related journalism, maybe.

[D]

Well, put it this way. Is it likely that I would have sat and talked to a new prime minister for half an hour knowing that he had a dog, wouldn't mention it? Is that likely?

[A]

That is unlikely.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Actually, that bit is not in final program.

[A]

Oh, so we'll never know.

[D]

No, we will know. We're going to put it out on social media.

[A]

Okay. Yes, another platform for people.

[D]

Another platform to look at. And I'm sure on Newscast you can talk about that. Oh, no, you're not. You're doing old newscast tomorrow or any.

[A]

No, no, we'll do normal newscast on Monday.

[D]

Are you doing normal? Okay, well.

[A]

Oh, I'm not having a summer holiday.

[D]

You can do the dog content then.

[A]

Yes, good.

[D]

And then Patty won't be here to offend cat owners, so that's good. So you can do that on your on own or whoever's joining you tomorrow. And you can talk about Axel the dog and Larry the cat. Because you see Axel, I mean, having a dog, bringing a dog into Down Street. We might even have some extra pictures.

[A]

Laura, thank you very much for all this great journalism. I look forward to watching the final product.

[D]

It's a pleasure. And I will be. I'll be back with Newscasters in September. Yeah, have a good day off. Thank you very much.

[A]

Right, that's all for this little extra bonus episode of Newscast. As a reminder, Laura's interview will be rolling out all across the BBC in the next few hours. If you haven't listened to old newscast about the 1997 election, that's in the feed too. And then there'll be a classic normal newscast your way about tea time on Monday. Bye bye bye. Newscast.

[D]

Newscast from the BBC.

[B]

Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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