Could Reform Use The Navy To Stop Small Boats?

Summary

---

Newscast – Episode Summary

Title: Could Reform Use The Navy To Stop Small Boats?
Date: August 3, 2026
Host: James (BBC News)
Guests: Henry (BBC Politics Reporter), Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico), Greg Holyoake (Middle East/North Africa Specialist, BBC Monitoring)

---

Brief Overview

This episode of BBC’s Newscast focuses on two major stories related to migration and politics:

1. Reform UK’s new policy to intercept small boats crossing the English Channel – A hardening stance that proposes using the Royal Navy to intercept and return migrants, and the resulting diplomatic, legal, and practical questions.
2. The dramatic mass crossing into Ceuta, Spain – A breakdown of why around 60,000 people attempted to enter the Spanish city of Ceuta from Morocco, the local and geopolitical implications, and how these events ripple through European and UK politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reform UK’s Immigration Policy Shift

Background: Reform UK’s Recent Turmoil

• Discussion of Leadership Woes and Finances:
  • Ongoing scrutiny over a £5 million gift to Nigel Farage from crypto billionaire Christopher Harborne.
  • Farage insists the gift was not connected to his political comeback, a timeline under Parliamentary investigation.
    “[The] big question… is the circumstances of the £5 million gift which he received… which Nigel Farage insists was completely independent…”
    — Henry [03:15]

"Operation Fortress": The Navy as Plan A

• Policy Announcement:
  • If in power, Reform UK says it would direct the Royal Navy to intercept boats crossing from France/Belgium, board migrants, and return them. “...the Royal Navy would intercept vessels... off board the people… onto Royal Navy vessels and then take them to France or to Belgium...”
    — Henry [05:15]
• Notable Quote:
  • Zia Youssef, Reform UK Home Affairs spokesperson, on enforcement even if France disagrees:
    “...the marines will nevertheless, given it’s a humanitarian mission... escort the migrants onto the beaches of France and if the French disagree... we’ll end up having something of an argument with the French.” [06:41]

Legal and Diplomatic Hurdles

• International Law Concerns:
  • Most legal experts argue deporting migrants without the receiving country’s consent is unlawful. Reform’s justification: humanitarian life-saving, citing ECHR Article 2 (even as they want to leave the ECHR).
  • Henry notes: “[It] would be legally tricky...[but] what Reform UK are banking on is that the diplomatic question would be settled before the legal question...” [07:45]
• Diplomatic Crisis Potential:
  • Policy could provoke a dispute with France; possibility of right-wing French leadership (Le Pen or Bardella) provides uncertain context.
    “Actually it would be a diplomatic crisis, wouldn’t it? Let’s be frank...”
    — Henry [09:21]

Practicality Challenges

• Downing Street's View:
  • Border Force officers deemed best equipped; Navy already overstretched.
  • When Navy had “primacy” in 2022, there was no decrease in crossings.
• Expert Opinion:
  • Tom Sharp, retired Royal Navy commander:
    “We don’t have the ships. And then if you do bring your ships to bear... it starts to unravel quickly.” [10:56]

Comparison: Current UK Government Policy

• Continuity Noted:
  • Andy Burnham’s approach as PM is “identical” to Keir Starmer’s: more cooperation with France, targeting smuggling gangs.
  • “...there was no indication... that the more that [Burnham] wants to do would deviate... from... Sir Keir Starmer...”
    — Henry [12:08]
  • Number of crossings said to be down 43% year-on-year.

Farage on Political Donations

• Farage’s Timeline Defense:
  • Claims no political intent at time of gift from Harborne.
  • Henry notes Farage’s public admission that the Sunday Times reporting was essentially accurate, but Farage “made such a point... of saying that these discussions... were subsequent to the gift” [14:39]

The "RESTORE" Challenge on the Right

• RESTORE Party:
  • Breakaway right-wing party led by Rupert Lowe, former Reform MP.
  • RESTORE polling well, especially on immigration, threatens to siphon Reform votes.
  • Nigel Farage discusses possibility of a pact, but personal animosity remains.
    “Nigel Farage said... RESTORE... were a threat to Reform’s ability to win because they are chipping away at Reform’s support from the right.”
    — Henry [16:08]

2. The Mass Ceuta Crossing: Spain-Morocco Migration Crisis

Geography & Context

• Ceuta: A small Spanish city on the North African coast, bordering Morocco. Controlled by Spain since 1668; not recognized by Morocco.
  • “It’s been under Spanish control since the 17th century... not recognized by Morocco formally as Spanish territory, which creates a kind of strange border...”
    — Greg Holyoake [21:04]

What Happened on Thursday?

• Mass Movement:
  • 60,000 people entered Ceuta, overwhelming a city of 80,000.
  • Moroccan border guards inexplicably abandoned their posts, allowing unimpeded crossings.
  • “Moroccan border guards... had essentially vanished from their posts... no one really monitoring...”
    — Itor Hernandez Morales [22:12]
• Danger & Tragedy:
  • At least 88 people believed to have drowned in the attempt.

Why Did This Happen?

• Possible Explanations:

  • Social media rumors spread that Spain had relaxed migration rules.
  • Many migrants young, with little luggage – more like a mass excursion than a planned exodus.
  • Some precedents: in 2021, Moroccan authorities encouraged a crossing for political leverage; possibly similar manipulation now.
  • “The comment... repeated... was that they had heard online, generally on TikTok... that it was the moment to cross over.”
    — Itor [35:26]

• Moroccan Government Silence:

  • No official explanation; Algerian media claims Morocco acting to pressure Spain about Western Sahara.

Migrant Demographics and Motivations

• Largely Moroccan Youth:
  • Recent “Gen Z” protests in Morocco over unemployment and lack of opportunity are a backdrop.
  • Also sub-Saharan Africans among migrants. “A vast number of them are Moroccan... on the back of these major Gen Z protests... unprecedented levels of youth unemployment.”
    — Greg [25:37]

Spanish & EU Political Repercussions

• Spain’s Left-Wing Approach Criticized:
  • PM Pedro Sanchez accused by EU leaders (Meloni, Frederiksen), and even Donald Trump, of being “soft on migration.”
  • Sanchez defends regularization scheme for existing migrants (not new arrivals), citing demographics.
  • Spanish authorities feel abandoned by EU partners, frustrated with lack of solidarity and the tendency to blame Spain.
  • “[Authorities] feel like the EU has failed to express sufficient solidarity... the Spanish authorities... went out of their way to point out that... this is absolutely comparable to other situations...”
    — Itor [30:05]

UK & Europe: Cross-Border Concerns Dispelled

• No Automatic Path to UK or Mainland Europe:
  • Ceuta/Melilla have specific restrictions; no migrants from Ceuta were able to reach mainland Spain, much less the UK.
  • Panic about onward migration is “a fallacy.” “[Movement to the UK] was never on the table, was never possible in, has not happened.”
    — Itor [32:21]

Social Media: The Catalyst

• Role in Mobilization:
  • Major Moroccan media describe the impulse to cross as having started “on a smartphone screen,” not at sea.
  • Social media rumors played a central role in motivating the attempted crossing [34:50]

Voices from Ceuta & Migrants

• Migrant Perspective:
  • Interviews suggest most followed viral online messages without a concrete plan or desire to resettle.
  • Many found the city deserted, with no food or shelter, and quickly decided to return.
  • “...the actual inhabitants of Ceuta essentially closed up shop. So... who managed to make it over then found themselves in an empty city...”
    — Itor [35:26]
• Local Backlash:
  • Ceuta's mayor/president blames Morocco and calls partnership unreliable. Residents feel like pawns in a geopolitical game.

Demographics

• Mostly Young Men:
  • Images, media accounts, and official reports indicate the majority were young Moroccan males [37:11]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reform UK’s “Operation Fortress”:
  “This is a hardening up of Reform's position on small boats... What's changed today... is that [naval interception] is now essentially Plan A.”
  — Henry [05:15]

• On Policy Diplomacy:
  “Actually, it would be a diplomatic crisis, wouldn’t it? Let’s be frank.”
  — Henry [09:21]

• On Navy Capability:
  “We don’t have the ships... the largest maritime operation in the Channel since World War II. A very evocative image, but that's not the reality.”
  — Tom Sharp [10:56]

• On Ceuta Crisis:
  "Spanish authorities immediately detected... Moroccan border guards... had essentially vanished from their posts."
  — Itor Hernandez Morales [22:12]

• On Social Media’s Role:
  “The wave of crossings... did not begin at sea, but rather on a smartphone screen.”
  — Moroccan media, paraphrased by Greg Holyoake [34:50]

• On Political Fallout in Spain:
  “The Spanish authorities... feel like the EU has failed to express sufficient solidarity... they pointed out that this weaponization of migrants is not unique...”
  — Itor [30:05]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:12 | Setting the agenda: Reform UK’s announcement on Navy use; Ceuta migrant crossing | | 03:15 | Reform UK’s recent troubles; Farage’s finances | | 04:34 | Operation Fortress explained: shifting to Royal Navy interception as Plan A | | 06:41 | Zia Youssef (Reform UK): Navy would act with/without French consent | | 07:45 | Legal/diplomatic challenges discussed | | 10:56 | Tom Sharp (ex-Navy): Royal Navy’s limited capability | | 12:08 | Andy Burnham’s small boats approach compared to Starmer’s | | 13:42 | Farage responds to questions on the £5 million political donation | | 16:08 | The RESTORE party challenge and right-wing fragmentation | | 19:59 | Ceuta mass crossing story begins | | 21:04 | Geography and history of Ceuta explained | | 22:12 | Timeline and events of the Ceuta crossing | | 23:24 | Dangers faced by migrants, casualty update | | 24:05 | Moroccan border guards’ withdrawal and media reactions | | 25:37 | Migrant motivations: Gen Z protests, demographics, sub-Saharan component | | 26:53 | Social media’s role and comparison with previous incidents | | 28:45 | EU and local political response, Sanchez under fire | | 32:21 | Clarification: no onward migration from Ceuta to mainland Europe or UK | | 33:44 | Social media as a catalyst in the migration event | | 35:26 | Voices of migrants and Ceuta residents | | 37:11 | Confirmation: Demographics mostly young men |

---

Summary in Original Language and Tone

The episode maintains the BBC’s characteristically measured, analytical tone, with host James providing light humor and direct questions, Henry offering in-depth political analysis, and expert guests elucidating the international aspects with clarity and reference to their reporting. Candid moments, particularly around Farage’s funding saga and the personal frictions with RESTORE, balance the weight of the main subject — mass migration and its ever-escalating political impact.

---

Recommended listening for anyone wanting to understand the nuances and stakes of the UK immigration debate and the wider patterns of European migration politics in summer 2026.

Transcript

[BBC Podcast Announcer]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Muscle Milk Advertiser]

Everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle Milk Muscle Milk has a great tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors or added colors. It's high quality complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 2642 grams of protein for when you're stuck in meetings or need a post workout recovery. Available in chocolate, vanilla, cream, cookies and cream and strawberries and cream. Try the new great tasting Muscle Milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle Milk Protein for all.

[Spinquest Advertiser]

Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.coms P-I N Q U-T.com

[Spinquest Legal Disclaimer]

Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Henry, I think this is the first time that we've had you back on Newscast since the horrendous news of the cancellation of Celebrity Mastermind.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

I'm too upset to speak about it, James. Not that I would ever have presumed that my campaign, my come and get me plea delivered via newscast was gonna actually work, but I guess now we'll never know whether it would have worked or not.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

We will never know. And the question, I suppose is, what other show are you going to go on instead?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Well, I was speaking to a certain Adam Fleming, not on Newscast in real life, because that does happen occasionally, too. And he said to me, oh, you'd have to go on, you'll have to go on Christmas University Challenge next. And I said, oh, you know, I'll never get to do that. And it turns out Adam's done that

[James (Host of Newscast)]

as well as Celebrity Mastermind. That's right, he has. He has to. Well, it's going to have to be strictly then.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

I think you do actually have to be an actual celebrity to go on strictly. So I don't think I'm in danger of getting that. I think I have to say, in my case, resistible offer anytime soon.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, that's not a firm denial, I note. Anyway, Henry's Mastermind subject today at least is Reform uk. And also we'll be talking about immigration because of those remarkable pictures coming out of people crossing over into the Spanish enclave of Ceuta or Ceuta on the North African Coast. So that is coming up later on, on this episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

from the BBC, humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

You know, I like my bosses, I'll

[Nigel Farage]

come on to them.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

I see that he was, I guess,

[Bretzky (Spinquest Advertiser)]

the mayor of a town.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Ooh la la.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Nigel Farage]

Do we play? What do we do?

[James (Host of Newscast)]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall. Hello, it's James in Glasgow.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

And hello, it's Henry in Westminster.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now, Henry, we can go on to what Reform UK have actually announced today in a minute because they held this news conference and there was news from the news conference, but before that, it's fair to say they've had a tough old time, Nigel Farage and his crew over the past few months, haven't they? What's been going on?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Yeah, absolutely. There's been an escalating intensity, I think, of questions for Nigel Farage and in some instances for other leading figures in Reform UK about Nigel Farage's finances and about the financing of Reform uk. And the big question facing Nigel Farage, which has only grown over the past few months, is the circumstances of, of the £5 million gift which he received from Christopher Harborne, Thai based crypto billionaire in the run up to the 2024 general election, which Nigel Farage insists was completely independent of his subsequent decision to re enter politics and get elected, as he ultimately managed to do in the 2024 general election as the MP for Clacton. Obviously there is a by election going on in Clacton which Nigel Farage called essentially because of the questions that he has been facing and the parliamentary standards investigation that he has faced about those matters. But I think what you saw from Reform UK today was an attempt, especially in the slightly quieter news environment of the summer, where Parliament isn't sitting, to regain the initiative on a policy area where they are at their most comfortable.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, they've reached for the lever marked immigration, which is standard fare, I suppose, if you're in Reform UK and you feel you're in trouble because it is very much at the heart of their appeal to voters, certainly the heart of their perceived appeal to voters. And they made this announcement today, Henry, that if Reform UK were to win power, if Nigel Farage were to become Prime Minister, that they would use the Royal Navy to intercept small boats crossing the English Channel from France or indeed, I suppose, Belgium as well. Tell us a bit more. Tell newscasters who maybe didn't see that, maybe some newscasters did, but what did Nigel Farage and others have to see?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Well, I think it's important to just say that this is a hardening up of Reform's position on small boats and how they would stop them. In the past, Nigel Farage has been open to the idea that there would be some sort of intercepting of small boats in the Channel, potentially using the armed forces. He's not ruled it out, but he suggested in interviews in the past that it would be something more like a last resort if other measures, in particular mass deportation of illegal immigrants who've made it to the uk, did not work. What's changed today, courtesy of what they're calling Operation Fortress, complete with policy document, is that that is now essentially Plan A. They say that the Royal Navy would intercept vessels and rather than sort of turning back those boats, which Nigel Farage was saying today would be too risky, they would, it seems, kind of off board the people on the boats onto Royal Navy vessels and then take them to France or to Belgium, depending on where the boats came from. And Nigel Farage's contention is that those countries would ultimately feel compelled to accept them.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Well, let's have a listen to Zia Youssef, the Home affairs spokesperson for Reform UK, speaking on the BBC's Today programme on Radio 4 earlier today about this topic.

[BBC Podcast Announcer]

Our document envisages two scenarios, one in which the French consent, which of course things are more straightforward. In the event that they do not consent, the marines will nevertheless, given it's a humanitarian mission, and they are obliged not Only under the ECHR Article 2, which of course Reform will leave immediately, but for what it's worth, the current situation, it's there. Article two demands the protection of life. North of 170 illegal migrants have already died making this journey. It's one of the most hazardous journeys that is routinely made in the world in terms of the maritime situation. So they will escort the migrants onto the beaches of France and if the French disagree, what will end up happening is we'll end up having something of an argument with the French.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

I suppose there's a big. Well, a couple of. Lots of questions. There's a big. There's a couple. There's lots. There are many questions, Henry, here, many questions. I suppose one of them is, is this lawful under international law? I mean, am I right in saying that the general most lawyers understanding of international conventions is that you just can't take someone back to another country without their permission, is that right?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

That is certainly the interpretation of lots of people we've heard from in response to this announcement. International lawyers and so on. Reform UK argue That actually this would be justified under international law because they are protecting life. Because as Zia Youssef was pointing out at length in the press conference, this is a perilous journey that people make across the English Channel. And they say this would be justified by stopping people making this perilous journey where sadly some people do regularly die making that crossing. Look, we're not international lawyers, so we can't make that determination. But I think it is fair to say that it is. The prevailing sort of assumptions of those who look at these matters is that this would be legally tricky. I think really though, what reform UK are banking on is that the diplomatic question would be settled before the legal question if there were a reform UK government which were to enact this policy immediately or near immediately after taking office. I think they are essentially banking on the idea that if they take these people to the French coast and attempt to offload them to France, then there would then be a diplomatic process between France and the UK which they hope would result in some sort of situation where France would agree to take them.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

I think a diplomatic process is a very difficult

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

fair point. I mean, I guess what I mean by diplomatic process processes that this would be a country to country. I mean, actually it would be a diplomatic crisis, wouldn't it? Let's be frank, that's what it would be in that scenario. Although, you know, in, in the world in which reform UK are in government here, let's remember France will have had a presidential election most likely by then. And of course it's possible that Marine Le Pen or Jordan Bardella, who are pretty ideologically sympatico with Nigel Farage, would be the French president by then. Of course there are other potentials, very different ideological hues who could become the French president. So look, we don't know, but I think it can be safe to say that it would not merely be a legal question if this policy were enacted. There would be all sorts of other questions as well.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, and one of those questions is about the practicality of this. Downing street has said that Border Patrol officers are the best suited candidates to deal with such operations dealing with small boat crossings. And I'll just, you know, we've got a bit of a statement from Downing Street. Let me just read you a couple of bits of it. You've heard it, Henry, but. And maybe some newscasters have too. But just to recap, Downing street said when the Royal Navy had primacy for these small boat crossings in 2022, there was no reduction during that period, says the Royal Navy is already tackling many threats, including monitoring Russian warships, for example, protecting our waters, critical national infrastructure. And it goes on to talk in detail about how Border Patrol officers, in Downing Street's view, have significant capabilities and skills that make them the best suited candidate. And they also point out, they say, they're driving down the number of crossings, down almost 50% compared to last year. That's Downing Street's view. This is what a retired Royal Navy commander, Tom Sharp, thought in terms of the practicalities of the plans.

[Tom Sharp (Retired Royal Navy Commander)]

I think it lacks quite a lot of substance. It does feel like Operation Isotrope, as you say, in January 22, when Priti Patel, who was Home Secretary, kind of lobbed this grenade at the Navy and said, fix it, and then really didn't empower them to fix many of the things that they could have helped with. So I think there's a notion that the Royal Navy can steam over the horizon and fix this problem, which, as you say, is declining slightly. Anyway, the reality, when you start looking at what ships we have, which is basically none, I mean, he's talking about the largest maritime operation in the Channel since World War II. A very evocative image, but that's not the reality. We don't have the ships. And then if you do bring your ships to bear and you start investigating what exactly you're going to do with them and where, then that starts to unravel quite quickly.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now, Henry, back then to the Prime Minister, Andy Barnum. Even now, I'm still getting used to that. The Prime Minister, Andy Burnham.

[Spinquest Advertiser]

Yeah.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Being in Dover at the weekend, talking about small boats, as this whole thing is sort of journalist shorthand known. But are his plans not quite similar to those of the man who we were also used to just about calling Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Yeah. Identical as far as I could tell from what Andy Burnham said yesterday. He talked about how progress had been made. He said he wasn't complacent and that he said there was more to do, but there was no indication that the more that he wants to do would deviate, particularly from the approach that Sir Keir Starmer took in office, which is to strengthen international cooperation with France, among others, as a means of sort of combating the people, smuggling gangs and hoping that that and other measures prove more of a disincentive, as well as putting more staff into specifically attempting to disrupt these crossings and so on. Look, I think on one level, James, not a surpr at all, that Andy Burnham appears to be signalling continuity with Sir Keir Starmer on this issue because, after all, he has kept on Keir Starmer's Home secretary, Shabana Mahmoud. So it would be quite something if she were then to take a radically different approach to small boats and illegal immigration and asylum under Andy Burnham compared to what she did under Zakir Starmer. And Andy Burnham was pointing to stats which do suggest that things so far, at least this year have moved in the right direction to this point in 2026 compared to up to this point in 2025. The number of people who've made the crossing is down about 43%.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now, Henry, as you said at the start of this, there are also a lot of questions for Nigel Farage in terms of donations and his return to Parliament. And you asked Nigel Farage about that today and here is what he said to you.

[Nigel Farage]

Oh, well, questions about money could go on for years, you know, I mean, look, I had no intention of returning to politics or was leader of Reform. But in the spring of that year, I did talk to Richard Tice about what the liabilities would be if, if I was to come back to that position. You'd be a bit of a mug, wouldn't you, to walk into a job and not find out what the potential liabilities were. And they were substantial. They were substantial. But without Richard, the party wouldn't have even survived. So that was useful for me to know. But it wasn't a deal, it wasn't an agreement. It was subject to if I came back. And if you want clarification on this, that came quite some time after the gift, which is perhaps the important point.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Henry, what did you make of Mr. Farage's response to you on that topic?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Well, quite a significant admission because the Sunday Times reported this at the weekend and they've led the way on much of the reporting about Nigel Farage and the questions around his finances and reform UK's finances. But this was confirmation in public from Nigel Farage that the thrust of what they reported at the weekend was correct. Look, and as Nigel Farage said there, he's absolutely right. The important question is how the timeline of these discussions with Richard Tice aligns with the timeline of the 5 million pound gift that he received from Christopher Harborne. Because Nigel Farage's defense about why he didn't need to declare that gift is that it was unconnected to his political activity, because at that point he was not entertaining the possibility of going back into politics. So that's why he made such a point there in his answer to me of saying that these discussions with Richard Tice were subsequent to the gift he received from Christopher Harbaugh.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now, just finally, before you dance off into the rehearsal studio, Henry, for your future Strictly career, are we getting closer to the possibility of a pact between Reform and restore? In fact, not everyone, maybe not some. Again, as always, lots of newscasters will know about restore, but just remind us who RESTORE are how that came about, because there was, you know, it was a breakaway to form RESTORE in the first place. Is that. Is that. Are those wounds being healed?

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

It's such a fascinating question. So RESTORE is a party led by Rupert Lowe. He was one of the five MPs elected as a Reform UK MP at the 2024 general election. Great Yarmouth Mastermind, or perhaps even a more niche quiz show, might one day ask the question of which football club Rupert Lowe owned and chaired in the early Premier League years. It was Southampton, so some people will remember him from those days. But he is now the leader of restore, having fallen out with Nigel Farage and actually it seems pretty well everyone else in Reform uk, but he has built up a significant online following and we are now seeing across electoral contests that there are people who want to vote for Restore who believe that it offers a more compelling pitch on the right of British politics than Reform uk. I think it's fair to say RESTORE has pitched itself, certainly on immigration matters and cultural matters, to the right of Reform uk. And they got a fairly significant amount of votes in the Greater Manchester mayoral by election just last week. If those votes had all gone to Reform uk, Labour still would have won that contest, but it would have been a bit closer. They also got a reasonable number of votes at the Makefield by election. And that is why, actually, with a fair dose of candor, Nigel Farage said in the press conference today that while he did not believe Restore could win much at a general election, they were a threat to Reform's ability to win because they are chipping away at Reform's support from the right now. Rupert Lowe appeared to offer some sort of pat to Nigel Farage on social media on Sunday. Nigel Farage today was talking about, well, if it was a serious offer, then it wouldn't have been communicated via social media. But he said that they had been trying to get in touch with each other on the phone since the press conference. Rupert Lowe is sort of quibbling with who had been offering to call whom and when. And so all of that does exemplify the level of personal animosity here. But nevertheless, I don't think this is the last we've heard of efforts to knit those two forces together because it does appear that they are, to some degree at least, fishing in the same pool for voters.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, really interesting. And you mentioned by elections and earlier you mentioned the Clacton by election, Henry. And I should just say there is a full list of candidates on the BBC website. You can just search Clacton by election. It's quite an interesting list. It's not the usual list, no Labour, Liberal Democrats, Conservatives or Greens, but lots of others. It's quite a read, Henry, thank you very much.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Thank you, James.

[Ridwell Advertiser]

This episode sponsored by Ritwell. Ever tossed something into your recycling bin and just hoped it would get recycled? That's wish cycling. And most of the time those items don't actually get recycled. Ridwell makes it simple to get it right. Ridwell helps you recycle the things your curbside bin doesn't take, like plastic bags, snack wrappers, pill bottles and bottle caps. Getting started is easy. Just order a starter kit, fill the bags, send them back for free, and Ridwell takes care of the rest. Start [e-mail] forget whatever plans you have

[Spinquest Advertiser]

this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30, coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P-I N Q

[Spinquest Legal Disclaimer]

U-E-T.com Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now we're going to stay with the topic of immigration because over the weekend you might have seen these dramatic pictures of tens of thousands of people trying to swim into the Spanish city of Ceuta, or Ceuta on Thursday. Now it is, although I say the Spanish city. We need to explain that it's in fact in North Africa and we'll come on to that in a minute. But they were migrants coming from Morocco. And to help us understand why they came in such numbers and what it's meaning for Spain, its relationship with Morocco, its relationship with the the rest of the European Union. With us are Itor Hernandez Morales, who's senior reporter at Politico. Hello, itor.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

Hi, good afternoon.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Good afternoon. And Greg Holyoake, who is Middle East North Africa specialist for BBC Monitoring. Hi, Greg.

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

Hi, how are you?

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Very well, thank you so much. Now, this is slightly more complicated than people crossing into Spain. Greg, can you just explain to us where this territory is what it is, where it is, because it's across the Strait of Gibraltar, it's in the other side of the Mediterranean from Spain, but it is Spanish, right?

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's, it's been under Spanish control since the 17th century and actually was, interestingly, one of the points from the, the Moorish conquest the opposite direction into Spain. And I think that's something we've seen in some far right narratives as well, coming in. So it is Spanish territory, it's also an autonomous region, so it's not completely sort of controlled by Madrid and it's also not recognized by Morocco formally as Spanish territory, which creates a kind of strange border situation. But we do see Spanish and Moroccan border control on both sides of that.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, well, facing Gibraltar on the other side, I suppose that's something with which people might be familiar as a concept in terms of a contested bit of land. Itor, tell us what happened then on this bit of land on Thursday, because initially I heard the reports coming out, newscasters probably heard them as well, and they were saying maybe hundreds. And then it became clear it was a lot bigger than that, what actually happened.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

So the latest estimates that we're working with is that around 60,000 people crossed over into this autonomous city that is a Spanish possession and has been, as you were mentioning, since 1668, so quite a while. But basically these migrants flooded into the city. And this is a city that normally has a population of 80,000. So you can imagine the impact that it had. As you said, it started out with a small trickle and then more and more people kept crossing over. And what Spanish authorities immediately detected was that the Moroccan border guards that normally work with the Spanish border guards guards to keep the city defended, they had essentially vanished from their posts. And so there was no one really monitoring on the other side. And thousands upon thousands of unauthorized migrants were seemingly drawn to one of the Moroccan beaches and were able to essentially just swim over to the Spanish beaches and come into the city.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

How far is that? And obviously it's dangerous, isn't it, because what, at least 70 people are believed to have died.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

The latest fatality count is up to 88. Now, it's not a huge distance, but it is fairly deep water. And certainly for people who are not particularly good swimmers, for the elderly, for children, it is a real challenge. And then we have to keep in mind the number of people that were in the water. So we really did see very chaotic scenes and a very deadly situation, especially for unexperienced swimmers.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

And Greg, in terms of that border and that suggestion that the Moroccans had deserted their post, the Moroccan border guards. What more do you know from the African side about that and indeed from the Moroccan government? What are they saying about that?

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

Well, we actually haven't heard anything formal or we didn't hear anything formal from the Moroccan authorities until today, this morning, even then. They absolutely have not mentioned that. It was a complete kind of deafening silence on that, which is not unsurprising. I think they're unlikely to suddenly say that they had taken their own border guards off. It's kind of created a bit of a, an ongoing media war between Algeria and Morocco who are by no means friends in the first place, but Algerian media have really been pushing this narrative that Ito was talking about that these Moroccan guards were not there and this was specifically related to Morocco trying to stop or pressure Spain into changing its position on the Western Sahara. And after this trip that the Spanish Prime Minister made to Algeria recently, that it was a kind of response to that. Moroccan media on the other side are definitely not mentioning this, at least all sort of pro government media, which is the majority of outlets, I would say, and they are pushing a narrative without citing any real figures or citing any sources that 60% of those who went into Ceuta or Cebta in Arabic were Morocco.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

And Greg, who, who are these people then apart from that? I mean, what do we know about them? Why were they so desperate at such immense risk to cross into Spain?

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

I think it's a really good question and maybe Ayatoll can talk more about the kind of demographic makeup from what. But what we've seen in media is that a vast number of them are Moroccan. Even Moroccan media pro government is kind of talking about this. And it comes on the back of these major Gen Z protests which incidentally in Arabic word just called the Gen Z protests, just a transliteration. And they that was talking about unprecedented levels of youth unemployment, that was talking about a kind of lack of opportunity. You know, these are debates that we hear here in the UK that we hear all around, but it really took to the streets in Morocco and it was one of the biggest uprisings we saw in a very, very long time. So that that accounts for a lot of the Moroccan people who are coming through. But you know, we've seen these videos of sub Saharan African migrants who are still on beaches and a lot of them in limbo because of, of not knowing how to get back to Morocco after this. And you know, according to UN figures and in terms of the kind of interceptions that Morocco made last year, which is about 74,000 interceptions. About 58% of them were from West Africa and only 12% of them were from North Africa.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

So it's a really interesting situation because again, we're still trying to get a clear picture as to what happened and what motivated these people to go over. As you were mentioning, the Moroccan interior minister has basically been the only person to go on the record about this. And what he alleged in a statement that he gave yesterday was that social media messages had spread claiming that Spain had relaxed the rules for migration. Now, the situation's a bit odd because a lot of the people who came over were not carrying any bags, were not carrying anything that you would conceivably think of bringing with you if you are going to flee your country and move elsewhere. It does seem to recall a similar incident in 2021, which was a lot more small scale. In that case, only about 8,000 people came over. But in that instance, the circumstances were almost identical. The border guards on the Moroccan side disappeared. And what we got later on were reports that Moroccan authorities had actually encouraged people to go over, not even necessarily to migrate, but essentially go over and check out Ceuta. They were even reports that they had organized buses to take school children over to the city, very much just in an effort to flood the city with migrants and create a very uncomfortable situation for Spanish authorities. Now, again, we're still trying to figure out if that's what, what's happened this time around. But it is remarkable that within 24 hours of the, of the initial surge of migrants, Spanish authorities reported that people were returning at a rate of around 125 people a minute. So it certainly doesn't sound like people who are looking for a long term exodus, but rather more of a short term excursion almost. It's a very, very strange situation.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, very dangerous excursion at that. We've mentioned a minute ago, Greg mentioned the Prime Minister of Spain, Pedro Sanchez. What has the role been of the Spanish Prime Minister here? Prime Minister on the left. He's been under attack, criticized by counterparts in the eu, notably Giorgio Meloni, the Prime Minister of Italy, but also by Donald Trump. They, I think, to boil it all right down, basically say you're soft on migration, this is your fault. I mean, is that broadly what he's being accused of?

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

Yeah, it's exactly that. Look, Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has made a career of molding himself into this kind of global progressive figure. As you no doubt recall, he's really hit back against Donald Trump at the war in Iran. And forbidden American planes from using Spanish bases to attack. And the other thing that he's really stood out for in Europe is that he is actually a very enthusiastic defender of migration. And earlier this year, he announced a government scheme to grant legal status to what ended up being 1.2 million unauthorized migrants already living in Spain. And Sanchez's argument is that Spain is undergoing a demographic collapse, essentially, and that it needs these people who are already there taking care of the elderly, working in shops, et cetera.

[Spinquest Legal Disclaimer]

Now.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

Now, what was really remarkable about this situation in Ceuta is that what we saw were EU leaders immediately linking the crisis in Ceuta to that legalization scheme that I mentioned. And these two things could not be more different. To qualify for this legalization scheme, for starters, you would have had to already been living in Spain at the beginning of this year. The deadline for applications ended back in June. In other words, none of the people who crossed over would have even been eligible for this regularization. And yet, exactly as you were mentioning, leaders like Italy's Prime Minister, Giorgio Meloni, later the Finnish Interior minister, even Sweden's Prime Minister, and of course, Meta Frederiksen, the Prime Minister of Denmark, who was notably part of the social democratic movement that Pedro Sanchez is part of, she too, really came down hard against Spain. So in Spain, the reaction has been very deep frustration on the part of authorities. They feel like the EU has failed to express sufficient solidarity with Madrid. And the Spanish authorities that I spoke to went out of their way to point out that the situation in Celta, even though the images are very shocking, is absolutely comparable to other situations that have taken place in Europe before. And if we, if we recall, a few years ago, Belarus, for example, was sending through migrants and flooding the borders of Poland, Lithuania, and other Baltic states to create pressure. And then several years ago, we had similar instances with Turkey and Greece. In other words, this weaponization of migrants is not unique to this situation. And what we saw was a lot of frustration in Madrid that EU leaders moved first to criticize Spanish authorities rather than to express solidarity with what is a very uncomfortable situation for any EU leader and especially an EU country that has the task of protecting the Union's external borders.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah, it's already bleeding through to UK politics as well, and discussions about the border of the UK and whether some of these people might eventually end up here. You know, these debates percolate through, don't they, and reverberate out across the. Across the continent.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

I want to mention with that, because the thing that the Spanish authorities really insist on is that as you may know, within the EU we have this Schengen area that actually covers 29 countries. And within this area you can travel without a passport. It's essentially a free movement zone. So even though Spain is part of it, and technically Ceuta and the other Spanish autonomous city in Northern Africa, Melilla, are part of it, that they have special conditions whereby in order to travel to the Spanish mainland you do have to have documents. In other words, none of these people would have made it over. They lacked the authorization to cross the Strait of Gibraltar. And crucially, both Spanish authorities and now EU authorities have confirmed that not a single one of these people made it onto the continent. So certainly the panic that was created in the rest of Europe, this idea that migrants were going to cross over to Spain and then eventually get to the uk, it's a fallacy. It's something that was never on the table, was never possible in, has not happened.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Okay, thank you for that perspective. And also it's worth pointing out the obvious which is the uk, it's not in the Schengen zone either. And indeed even when the UK was in the eu, it wasn't in the Schengen zone. Anyway, Greg, social media, has that played a role here in some way in terms of these people getting to this point and then crossing? What do we know about that?

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

Just quickly on out of the previous point that about them not being part of the Schengen zone, I mean it is so much more complicated than that given that Gibraltar is now in the Schengen Zone and is part of the UK etc. That's such a good point that you know, it's not just one sort of. Well, it is homogenous, but it's not just one kind of easily explainable place on social media. I think it's definitely played a role and that's a role that, that Moroccan media has really been trying to, to push. I was looking at some articles earlier where these kind of main pro government, not kind of state owned but pro government websites were describing it as a wildfire on social media. Another was saying that the wave of crossings towards occupied theater did not begin at sea, but rather on a smartphone screen. So I think think that for Moroccan media they aren't pushing massively this idea that Spain was trying to attract people with, with these recent decisions. There has been some of that discourse, but I think it seems to be a kind of compromise position where they don't have any blame on the Moroccan authorities while also trying to keep some cordial relations with, with Spain and not trying to rock the boat too much

[James (Host of Newscast)]

and just to bring it back to where we began, just to finish. Have either of you heard from any of the migrants directly involved? Have we heard in their voices why they were doing this? And have we heard from the people in Theuta about what they felt about what was happening? Either of you?

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

So very much indirectly. But these people have been extensively interviewed on Spanish media. And just this morning I was listening to the, the radio, the, the. The comment that we heard repeated over and over again by some of the people who came over was that they had heard online, generally on TikTok, on social media, that it was the moment to cross over. But many of the people I listened to being interview admitted that they didn't really have a plan beyond that, and they weren't even sure if they necessarily want. Wanted to cross over into Spain. They've also found a pretty impossible situation because the reaction within the city was that the, the actual inhabitants of Silta essentially closed up shop. So a lot of the people who managed to make it over then found themselves in an empty city where they couldn't access food, shelter, anything like that. So it was a pretty rational decision for them to return back over the border as soon as that was possible. On the side of the actual residents of the city. They seem very upset given the amount of people that came in and the chaos that was lived there. And there is deep frustration on the part of authorities like the city's mayor, who's also the autonomous president. He this morning openly stated that he no longer considered that Morocco was a reliable partner. And he expressed his very sincere doubts that, you know, he said he believed that Morocco very likely had a role in it. And these are people who are very tired of being used as a geopolitical chess piece. They're exhausted. They're just trying to live their lives.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Yeah. And Greg, just finally, one thing I should have asked a lot earlier. Were these all, or at least mostly young men crossing over?

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

I mean, from the demographics that we've seen and from how it's described in media, it does suggest that it is that. And from the kind of reports that we've been seeing from inside Ceuta and the, the things that residents have been saying about the people that they've been seeing, I guess it might fit with a kind of wider point where both Spain and Morocco have been pushing this narrative that it's, it's been, it links to the social media point, but they've been pushing this narrative that effectively it was these trafficking gangs that were trying to push on social media to get as many people there as possible. We do know that a lot of them do act in Morocco. You know, Morocco is constantly announcing on, on state media that it has dismantled another network of, of kind of trafficking, human trafficking from its coast. But I, I mean, it's hard to know exactly what the demographics of the people were at this point because it's just all we can do is see from the images that we've seen.

[Henry (Guest on Newscast)]

Yeah.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Which were quite extraordinary. Look, thank you both so much for joining us on Newscast. Greg, thank you.

[Greg Holyoake (BBC Monitoring Specialist)]

Thank you very much.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

And itor, thank you very much indeed.

[Itor Hernandez Morales (Senior Reporter at Politico)]

Always a pleasure.

[James (Host of Newscast)]

Now, on the weekends, during your summer holidays, you will be treated, treated, dear Newscaster, to episodes of Old Newscast. And this year we've been looking back at some of the moments that have defined UK politics in recent history. And if you, if you hadn't heard the first two, they were the 97 election, the first big Tony Blair Labour landslide, which is a very enjoyable listen and I would recommend it thoroughly to you. And also the rise of David Cameron in 2005, which I haven't heard. So I'm going to go and listen to that. And I've just recorded another one with Adam and Scotland correspondent Lorna Gordon, my longtime colleague Lorna Gordon, about the independence referendum, the Scottish independence referendum in 2014. That's not out yet, but that's coming down the track. Anyway, that's all for today. Adam will be back tomorrow. Bye for now. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason (Newscast Outro Host)]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord Community community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.

[Bretzky (Spinquest Advertiser)]

What's up baby? It's Bretzky and I'm here to tell you that spinquest.com is giving out free sweeps coins. All you got to do is purchase a ten dollar coin pack and guess what? They're gonna give you the coins from a thirty dollar coin pack that lets you play all your favorite games like Blackjack, Wanted Dead or Wild. And we're talking real cash prizes, baby. Spin Coins.

[Spinquest Legal Disclaimer]

Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.