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- [00:00]
Adam Fleming
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. All new drinks are now at McDonald's
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Chris Mason
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- [00:34]
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- [01:18]
Danny Shaw
Fantastic.
- [01:20]
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- [01:38]
Danny Shaw
hello. So over the weekend, Laura and Paddy were covering some of the updates on the investigation into the death of Anne Widdicombe, the Reform UK spokesperson and former Conservative minister who was found dead at her home on Dartmoor on Thursday. Well, during the day on Monday, there have been some other big developments. First of all, the 28 year old suspect who was arrested on Saturday has been rearrested and the investigation is now being handled by Counterterrorism Policing. Counterterrorism Policing Southeast said it was because new information had come to light during what they were describing as a dynamic and complex investigation. So we will discuss all of those developments on this latest episode of Newscast,
- [02:21]
Chris Mason
Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [02:23]
Danny Shaw
I will resign as leader of the Labour Party.
- [02:26]
Chris Mason
And what will you do? Stare at a wall?
- [02:28]
Adam Fleming
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [02:31]
Danny Shaw
You know I like my buses. I'll come on to them.
- [02:33]
Adam Fleming
It's supposed to be me as a doctor.
- [02:34]
Danny Shaw
Ooh la.
- [02:35]
Chris Mason
Thinking about it like a panter helped. Do we play music now?
- [02:39]
Danny Shaw
Or what do we do? Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio
- [02:41]
Chris Mason
and it is Chris at Westminster.
- [02:43]
Danny Shaw
And we're joined down the line by Danny Shaw, the home affairs and policing commentator who used to work here at the BBC. Hi, Danny.
- [02:48]
Adam Fleming
Hi, Adam. Hi, Chris.
- [02:49]
Danny Shaw
Hi, Chris. I'm just thinking that this story about Anne Widdicombe's death has gone through so many different kind of versions almost, if I could put it that way, from the tributes on, on Friday morning, when people thought it was just a sad, untimely death, to the fact that it was then a murder investigation, which didn't have any kind of political or terror angle to it, to where we are now on Monday afternoon. And counterterrorism policing are investigating it now.
- [03:17]
Chris Mason
Yeah, exactly that, Adam. And I think for people watching on at Westminster, and most acutely for her friends and neighbours and family, that sense of trying to manage the emotions as information has emerged. So, as you say, on Friday morning, that sense of loss of somebody you know, of a reasonable age, if not, you know, in her 80s or 90s, she's 78 years old, people reflecting in a way that conventionally happens when people are no longer around, followed by that push alert that people have seen on their phones on Friday afternoon, what was it, about half, three, four o' clock on Friday afternoon, with it becoming a murder investigation, but then the statements from the police, which were never categoric, but said at various points over the weekend that there wasn't evidence at that point that it was either politically motivated or that there was a terrorism aspect to it. And then fast forwarding to this lunchtime, Monday lunchtime, with this. With this update.
- [04:20]
Danny Shaw
So, Danny, we shouldn't speculate when we don't have the information in front of us, but what might be some reasons, or have been reasons in the past, when an investigation switches from a murder investigation with no political or terrorism component, to actually being an investigation by counterterrorism looking at terrorism.
- [04:39]
Adam Fleming
Well, I think it's important just to point out with this investigation what the police have said, because they've specifically said that they're still trying to establish the motivation of the attack and they're looking at multiple lines of inquiry. So I think it's important to point that out. And there is still a murder investigation. The suspect is still being held on suspicion of murder, but alongside that, his rearrest under the 2000 Terrorism act for the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism suggests to me that they have uncovered some evidence or have new information. Perhaps it's come about from searches of his property, items there, computers, documents, or looking further into the suspect's background, that suggests that there may be allegations related to terrorism that may be separate to the attack in Devon on Anne Widdicombe. So I think it's important to sort of point that out because. And because of that, because there's, you know, there's some potential terrorism strand to this whole thing. The counterterrorism police have decided, look, we'll take over the whole thing. And. And, you know, I'm sure they'll work in conjunction with Devon and Cornwall police as well. I mean, it's. So I still think that it's unclear to investigators why this fatal attack was launched. That's what I'm getting from this. But there are some other issues that they have to address that could be potentially terrorism related. And I also think it's worth saying why speculation is unhelpful, because the police have said that I think the Devon and Cornwall police and Crime Commissioner Allison Hernandez, who made a statement, was very correct in what she said. She said, look, people are going to speculate, people are going to talk over the water cooler in the pub, across the garden fence at home, over breakfast or whatever about this huge incident, this high profile figure, much loved by many people. People are going to specul about why it's happened. Of course, that's natural, but the difference is putting it onto a public platform like social media, that is where you have to draw the line, because that is. Firstly, it's a distraction for the police because they then have to deal with strands that might arise from that. Secondly, it's distressing and can be very upsetting for family and friends of the victim. And thirdly, there's a possibility that it could compromise the investigation and potential criminal proceedings in the future. So there are, there are good reasons why that in that speculation shouldn't be public, but it's natural for all of us to speculate kind of privately. You can't stop that, that kind of human inquisitiveness, can you?
- [07:37]
Danny Shaw
But, Danny, there is, there isn't. There is information getting into the public domain now, so that the police have confirmed that the man who's in custody is 28 years old, that he was arrested in Rotherham. And then separately, there's now this imagery circulating online, supposedly of a CCTV camera of the suspect potential getting into a red car with a timestamp on it of Thursday morning. And so people are putting lots of bits of information together, even though information is coming from different sources.
- [08:07]
Adam Fleming
Yes. And again, that's normal in high profile cases like this. Journalists have a job to do and they get a lot of their information. My experience from on the ground, from talking to people who live next door to suspects, neighbors who may have seen the police activity, that's where a lot of information comes from. And also some open source information from, from websites and so on. And some of that comes into the public domain as well as the official information that's put there by the police. Those images of this man, the suspect in this case, getting into a red car. The Daily Telegraph reported that he had some object, stick or bar or something that he was trying to conceal. You know, we don't know whether that's true or not, but it is a curious aspect of the inquiry that he was arrested in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, which is almost 300 miles away from where Anne Widdecombe lives. And people again will probably speculate about that.
- [09:08]
Danny Shaw
And Danny, just do us the kind of the GCSE crime reporting thing and remind us of what the legal definition of terrorism is. And this is us just looking at what the law says.
- [09:19]
Adam Fleming
Yes. So terrorism is defined as the use or threat of serious violence against a person or serious damage to a property. Those are a couple of the main categories which are designed to influence the government or an international government organization or to intimidate the public. And the use or the threat must be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. So that's the clear significance here. I think what's interesting for me is that Devon and Cornwall police were quite clear in their statements that they've made as recently as Sunday to say that there was nothing to suggest politically motivated. And they said at this time there is still no information to suggest that it is terrorism related. They were saying that in their public statements on Sunday. On Monday we hear that the investigation is being led by counterterrorism police and the motive is still yet to be established. So events have moved very, very, very quickly. But they do in these types of case, very. Because information is coming in all the time.
- [10:29]
Danny Shaw
And Chris, this has changed the tenor of the conversation around the safety of public figures, whether they're politicians, ex politicians, because on Friday, because Devon and Cornwall police had said, as Danny was just quoting there, it's not being treated as terrorism. No information that there was a political motive. It was a different conversation then from what it is now.
- [10:49]
Chris Mason
It was. Although it's worth emphasizing just the human reality, I think, of members of Parliament and those here at Westminster absorbing news, as they did on Friday. Even given what the police were saying, albeit with some caveats then, which is that it reminded people, even then, it was reminding people, not that they need much reminding, but it was reminding people here of the profile of their jobs and their sense of vulnerability. Because even in the context of what was being said then, people's minds were reflecting on Jo Cox, the Labour mp, Sir David Amos, the Conservative mp, and not just those two horrific murders, but the day to day reality for so many MPs of security. And so that was becoming a live conversation again amongst MPs on Friday afternoon. Even given what the police were saying then and continued saying over the weekend, I think it'll notch up again in the context of where we are now, although as Danny says, there's still a huge amount we don't. We don't yet know. But yeah, absolutely. That question around security and safety has been live for some time, for obvious reasons amongst MPs, and will be and is uppermost in their thoughts again.
- [12:12]
Danny Shaw
And Chris, there's been some quite strong language from Zia Yousef, the Reform UK Home affairs spokesperson. He put on social media that the government and the speaker in particular, Lindsay Hoyle, he said, do not care about the safety of Reform MPs.
- [12:30]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And actually, just as we're recording at what, just shy of 3 o' clock on Monday afternoon, Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker, as the Commons began its sitting on Monday, began with a tribute to Anne Widdicombe. I've just been sent the words of it, so I'll just reflect. Reflect this for newscasters now saying that Anne Widecombe died in tragic and deeply troubling circumstances last week. She was a formidable politician, fierce and enjoyed robust political debate. Whether you agreed with her or not. She was principled, spoke her mind and was true to her beliefs and was a close friend to Sir David Amos, who I just mentioned. Both were animal lovers, the speaker said. And he ended by saying he would urge members not to say anything that might prejudice a future trial, as Danny was just reflecting on a few minutes ago. But yeah, as you say, there's been this spat involving Zia Yousef, prominent reform figure. I was going to say politician. I mean, he kind of is a politician, but he's not elected to. He's not elected to anything. And yes, there's absolutely been in the last couple of days a sharpening of a critique from reform which we've heard before around safety of MPs. Not least Nigel Farage. He's had a long running public spat around what he sees as an Inadequate amount of security provided by the state for him. It is true to say when you see Nigel Farage out and about, that he has a level of security, much of which is private, that you would normally associate with the most senior of cabinet ministers, such as the threat that he feels that he faces. And I think in the context of that, of course we've seen that argument over the last number of weeks, over the 5 million pound gift from Christopher Harborne, the British Thai based crypto and aviation billionaire, and they're not registering that, et cetera, et cetera. I think we're seeing that debate now play out through the prism of the events of the last 72 hours or so.
- [14:31]
Danny Shaw
And Danny, in this whole debate, I'm just thinking we're needing new categories of people, aren't we? Because I'm just thinking when Chris was saying Zia Yousef isn't even an mp, but he sort of feels like he's on the front line of British politics. And Anne Widdicombe hadn't been on the front line of British politics as an elected person for quite a while. But yet these are all people with high profiles that people can watch on tv, have strong opinions about and in Anne Widdakeham's case, actually quite easily find out where she lives.
- [14:57]
Adam Fleming
Yes, but there isn't a sort of a bottomless pot of money to pay for everyone's security who's in the public eye. You know, these are decisions that are made by the police about whether security is justified and what level is justified. There are certain practical steps that people can take themselves to, you know, avoid being targets. It's impossible to protect someone all the time. And look, we don't know the circumstances, but we do know that in that village people left their gates open, front doors open, so. And they thought it was very safe. So you have to look at, you know, that context of it as well.
- [15:37]
Danny Shaw
Chris, I was very struck watching you on the 10 o' clock news on Friday night talking about the number of times you'd been on the Any Questions stage with Anne Widdicombe. And I thought that was an interesting way of looking back at her contribution to British politics.
- [15:52]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I mean, she was probably on Any Questions far more than I was because she would have been on as a panelist years, perhaps decades before I had my stint presenting that program. But what struck me as I was reflecting on her as a character was how brilliant a contributor on Any Questions she was because of her capacity to hold an audience's gaze and attention and, you know, for those of us, all three of us who've spent much of our careers sitting in front of microphones and cameras, like to think that you can develop a sixth sense for what is interesting and what is boring. Let me tell you, when you're doing that show and you've got 300 people looking at you, you know whether the conversation you're having is interesting or boring, because you can see it in the whites of the eyes of people in the room in front of you. And you get a sense of those contributors of every political persuasion who can hold an audience in either wild agreement or disagreement, and those, frankly, who struggle to do that. And Anne Widdicom's capacity to hold an audience was really quite something because all of the tools, if you like, of being able to do that, she kind of had in abundance. Yes, her views were very primary colors. Now, of course, people will argue that in, in a political debate you need the full range of views. And not everyone's views will be necessarily as a sort of primary colors as hers, as hers were, but they absolutely were. But she brought with that a sort of. She could be warm and barbed. Some people can manage one of those two, some people can't manage either. But some can manage one of those two. Perhaps not many can manage both. And she could manage both. She could be punchy and pugnacious, but she could also be self deprecating and silly. So she could be very serious and silly. So, yeah, in my experience, audiences, as I say, whether they agreed or not, and people would have strong views in both directions as far as her outlook was concerned, particularly her lifelong social conservatism grounded in her faith. And some of those views became increasingly unfashionable to many during her career, frankly. But she held to them with a kind of conviction and spirit that I detected, as I say, doing that show. Even those who profoundly disagreed with her would respect the fact that she held to them with a. With a profound sense of being sure that she felt she was, you know, she was right. So, yeah, as I was reflecting on, on the news on Friday, that's the thing that, that came to mind, seeing how she went down in front of live audiences. She was, she was, yeah, very good at making an argument to the best of her ability and trying to convince, to take people with her, even if she knew in some instances she was, for many people, sort of pushing water uphill because she might be, if you like, advocating a position that, that was increasingly unfashionable, like opposition to equal marriage, for example.
- [18:41]
Danny Shaw
I Just think it's interesting how many different flavors her career had. So under Thatcher, she was a backbencher with not a huge profile and didn't seem to have many prospects. Then she was a Home Office minister under John Major, but she was most famous for kind of criticizing her boss, Michael Howard, the Home Secretary, then her failed attempts to become Tory leader, an attempt which lasted for about two minutes, by the looks of things, from rereading the history books. Then she was back to the back benches, then basically a reality TV star, and then back to politics again. In this sort of. Towards the end of her career, first of all, as a. As an. As an MEP for the Brexit Party and then one of the spokespeople for Reform uk, she went through a lot of different phases.
- [19:24]
Chris Mason
She did. And actually, as you recount that kind of biography, if you like, it reminds me of that line that Tony Benn used when he stood down from the comments where he said he was standing down from. For the Commons to spend more time in politics. And in a curious sort of way, Anne Widdicom stood down for the Commons to spend more time in public life in different ways, whether it be Strictly or Big Brother or then, if you like, re emerging on the. On the political stage with reform, and then the regular things she would do popping up. You know, she was frequently, you know, on the television and radio, in fact, had been on talk tv, hadn't she? Just a couple of hours, it would seem, before, you know, we understand she was attacked. So that prominence, if you like, in the national conversation and wanting to continue making an argument was something she'd carried on, I was gonna say, into retirement, but in that sense, she hadn't really retired. She was still very active.
- [20:16]
Danny Shaw
She was also one of the first people I ever interviewed because she came to Oxford to do a book signing when she'd published a novel, and I interviewed her for the student newspaper.
- [20:27]
Chris Mason
Did you?
- [20:28]
Danny Shaw
Yeah, but unfortunately, that was in about 1999, so it doesn't exist on the Internet, so I can't go. And I don't have any cuttings of it, so I can't go back and see what amazing questions I asked her, because that was probably the first time I ever interviewed a politician as well.
- [20:41]
Chris Mason
It'll be buried in a library somewhere, that, won't it?
- [20:44]
Danny Shaw
I'm not sure our archiving was that good on the Oxford student. And Danny, I mean, you've covered home affairs for a long time now, so you were probably there for the infamous thing about prisons and her Falling out with Michael Howard over the. The fate of the guy that ran the prison system when she was prisons
- [21:00]
Adam Fleming
minister, very active prisons minister. You know, when I think about her, I always think about her in that role. There were some people that. Some ministers in charge of prisons that regarded as a poison chalice and couldn't wait to get out of that brief. And there are others, like, you know, Rory Stewart comes to mind, Lord Timpson, who's the current sort of prisons minister in the House of Lords, and Anne Widdicombe, who relished the role, you know, and immerse themselves in their knowledge of imprisonment and criminal justice. And of course, you know, very publicly, she fell out with Michael Howe because he wanted to replace the Director General of the Prison Service, Derrick Lewis, because there had been a number of breakouts in prisons in the 90s, very high profile cases, and she disagreed with the policy that he had. And obviously, people will remember Michael Howard's interview on Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman about threatening to overrule Derrick Lewis, which she asked him goodness knows how many times. And then Anne Widiken went on to say that Howard had something of the night about him. And, you know, that phrase. I mean, 30 years later, people are still remembering that phrase. So she just had a way of, I think Chris has said it, of making a point and finding the right phrase for the moment, whether that just be, you know, a quick interview on the Today program, or whether it be, you know, something that would, you know, be headlines, you know, years later.
- [22:28]
Danny Shaw
And, Chris, talking of headlines, as we're recording this episode of newscast on Monday afternoon, we're waiting for a statement from Shabana Mahmood, the Home Secretary.
- [22:35]
Chris Mason
We are, yeah. And I think into that we will get a sense, I would expect, particularly in the light of the news of the last handful of hours, some of those broader reflections, over and above understandably, the human reflections from those who knew her as an MP, or indeed in her life beyond the Commons. But also around those questions around safety, I think they were inevitable and being asked anyway, even without, whatever the developments of the last few hours may or may not add up to. But just because of that sort of, as I say, that magnifying sense of vulnerability that so many MPs feel now,
- [23:19]
Adam Fleming
I think it's worth saying it is very difficult when, you know, the police are trying to piece this case together. But obviously MPs in particular and people in public life want answers more quickly because they're worried for themselves and their own safety and security. Are there Things that they should be doing. Are there measures that the police should be taking to protect them? We don't know whether the Anne Widdcom case will be relevant to that or have read across to that. And you would hope that there will be some back channels, that there will be some private discussions taking place between the Home Secretary, between the Prime Minister and between, you know, with senior counterterrorism officers and Devon and Cornwall police to update them and brief them on what they do know. Not stuff that can be said publicly, but so if there are steps that can be taken, they can, you know, put those measures into place immediately. If there is a weakness that can be identified, then that can be remedied. But it's very difficult to have that information in public when there's an ongoing criminal investigation.
- [24:20]
Danny Shaw
And also, Danny, while at the same time the transparency expected from the police is higher than it was in the past.
- [24:28]
Adam Fleming
Yes. And actually, I think Devon and Cornwall police have done a textbook operation in terms of releasing as much information as they can, saying that the suspect in both cases, because they had an initial suspect who was arrested and then released without charge, saying what the nationality and ethnicity of the suspects are, which is the guidelines now on high profile cases and these types of cases, is to put that information in the public domain. Better that it comes from official sources than that unofficial bad actors put false claims in there. So I think they've done that. Well, they've tried to explain where they can't or won't put information into the public realm. They try to sort of say, look, we understand that there's a thirst for knowledge in this case, but we're not, for operational reasons going to make this public, for example, putting description, I think, of the suspect out CCTV images. And so I think that they have, in their public statements, I think they have been pretty clear and transparent about what they're trying to do. And that's quite refreshing.
- [25:33]
Danny Shaw
And I suppose it's back to that thing on Friday afternoon when they were asked, was there a political element here? And they said there was no evidence or information at that point to suggest.
- [25:42]
Adam Fleming
And that's probably correct, yes.
- [25:43]
Danny Shaw
Which was correct at that point.
- [25:45]
Adam Fleming
At that point, then it's always that at this stage, at this point, this is what we think. And it's always those words, you know, and. And we still don't know what the motive was, as police have said in the most recent statement. And in fact, for investigators, I think this is a really important point to make for investigators. Establishing a motive is not really the most important thing, they are trying to establish, you know, House, how someone died, if it was foul play, who is responsible, and finding the evidence and finding that that person and then finding the evidence to link them to the crime. And that in many cases a motive may not be established. I mean, there are countless cases in London, for example, of murders of young people and there is a wall of silence and the police piece it together through cctv, through mobile phone data, through DNA evidence, in some cases, sometimes eyewitnesses as well. They piece the information together and sometimes at the end of it, they don't know why that attack has been perpetrated, why that person was killed. They really don't because people don't talk. And it's also not the most critical part of the investigation.
- [27:03]
Danny Shaw
Okay, Danny, thanks for your help today.
- [27:05]
Adam Fleming
You're very welcome. Nice to be with you again.
- [27:07]
Danny Shaw
And Chris, good to catch up with you.
- [27:09]
Chris Mason
Thank you both.
- [27:19]
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- [28:31]
Danny Shaw
Fantastic.
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ZipRecruiter Advertiser
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- [28:53]
Danny Shaw
and before we go let's get an update on supporter Reporter where we're trying to find a newscaster in every single One of the 48 countries that went to the World Cup. We have got a message from Leah who says, I'm a Haitian Jamaican living in Tunbridge, Wales. I watched Jamaica lose to Dr. Congo in the last ditch World cup qualifier. So Leah, thank you very much for messaging. You can be our supporter reporter for Haiti. Also, thank you to Bernhardt who says servus, which is Greetings, it's me, Bernhardt and I live in rural Austria about an hour outside Vienna. I support the oldest Austrian football club, First Vienna FC, founded in 1894 by English gardeners. I also have a weak spot for Norwich and I'm a fan of your podcast and are the reason why I know more about British than Austrian affairs. Bernhardt, you've got the slot as the supporter reporter from Austria. And a message from Alison who's volunteering her daughter in law Karolina. She says, hello, Newscast. I heard you're still looking for a supporter reporter from Panama. I hope our lovely daughter in law Karolina would qualify as she's from Panama and has lived in Britain for the last three years. There was great excitement when Panama qualified for the World cup and were drawn in the same group as England. Thank you very much for your podcast. I've listened for years and never missed an episode. Well, thank you very much Alison for volunteering your daughter in law to be our supporter reporter from Panama. Now, the Weekend Rick from Football Daily did a list of the outstanding slots we've still got. We've just filled three of them, but that means we're still looking for a supporter reporter from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cape Verde, Colombia, the Democratic Republic of Congo, France, Ghana, Cote d' Ivoire or Ivory Coast, Turkey and Uruguay, only one of which is actually still in the World Cup. But that's the thing about doing a gimmick the wrong way around. Imagine we've done it in reverse. That would be really slick. Anyway, thank you for helping us with how this gimmick has ended up. And if you live in or have links to or visiting any of those countries, you know how to get in touch. It's newscastbc.co.uk or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and we'll be back with another episode of Newscast very soon.
- [31:11]
Adam Fleming
Bye bye.
- [31:13]
Danny Shaw
Newscast.
- [31:14]
Chris Mason
Newscast from the BBC, you've come to
- [31:17]
Adam Fleming
the end of Newscast. Some people, and you know who I mean, might say you ooze stamina. Can I encourage you to subscribe on BBC Sounds? And you can get in touch with us anytime. Email us@newscastbc.co.uk, you can WhatsApp us on 0301-239-4880.
- [31:36]
ZipRecruiter Advertiser
Foreign.
- [31:42]
Chris Mason
Made in China. What do you think? I'm Tristan Redman.
- [31:46]
ZipRecruiter Advertiser
And I'm Asma Khalid. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. And today on our show, we look at the origins and evolution of Made in China because it actually wasn't inevitable. What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.
- [32:05]
Chris Mason
For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.