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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Ulta Beauty's Big Holiday Beauty Sale is back with up to 50% off. Must have gifts shop irresistible deals like the Shark Beauty Flex Style and Benefit Cosmetics. Travel size mascaras with new offers weekly.
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Same day pickup or delivery.
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And our trusted associates, we make holiday shopping effortless. Head into Ulta Beauty today. Ulta Beauty gifting happens here. Hey parents. Ready to turn story time into a magical adventure with a story Dream Machine? Colorful lights and sound effects bring everytale to life right before your eyes. Choose from a wide variety of story collections to keep the excitement going. Sold separately and with the Storytime travel case you can take the fun anywhere. Vacation, grandma's house, even the backyard. Plus the Story dreams Story Dreamers plush adds interactive moments your kids will love. Story time isn't just reading, it's dreaming. Bring story time to life with the story Dream Machine. Hello. This weekend you will get the first of our festive newscast treats. On Saturday and Sunday we'll be bringing you some of the highlights of our 25 hour long podcast, a thon we did in aid of children in need back in November. And if you didn't listen to the whole 25 hours, this is your chance to hear some of the bits that you missed. But before that, we will do a classic episode of normal length.
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B
Newscast, newscast, newscast from the BBC.
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C
Fat Boy Slim and me in the.
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Classroom doing our violin lessons. I was the tattletale in the classroom.
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C
Can I have an apology please?
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I trust almost nobody.
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Then daddy has to sometimes use strong language.
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D
Next time in Moscow.
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I feel delulu with no salulu.
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Take me down to Downing Street. Let's go have a tour.
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Blimey.
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Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio and shortly we'll be joined by Europe editor Katja Adler, who is in Berlin, where lots of European leaders are meeting for dinner and discussions with Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, following some very positive sounds coming from the German chancellor Friedrich Merz. So lots to catch up with what is happening there? But first of all, resident doctors, formerly known as junior doctors, have decided in an online ballot that their strike will go ahead from Wednesday onwards. In England, this is even though the government had piled on the pressure for them to change their minds, saying that this was going to coincide with a massive spike in flu. So what's been going on and what does it mean? The people who know are right here in the newscast studio. Or at least one of them is. It's Hugh Pym, our health editor.
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C
Hi, Hugh hello again, Adam. Hi.
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A
And also down the line from Westminster is Chris Mason. Hello, Chris.
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D
Hi.
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A
Right, Hugh, just explain to us what do we know about this ballot other than they decided to press ahead with the strikes in England?
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C
Well, it was an online survey under which BMA members who are resident doctors were asked to answer a simple question, or what do you make of Wes Streeting's latest offer? And are you still prepared to go ahead with the strike? The implication being if you weren't in favour, you'd want a strike anyway. But it was to gauge whether they should actually call off the strike, go for a formal ballot on the offer or just go ahead with the strike. And it was a pretty resounding vote in favour of continuing with the strike plan. Five days in England from Wednesday, 83% in favour on a 65% turnout. And Mr. Streeting's offer had been for training places for newly qualified doctors to help them advance their careers, get into their specialist areas of the profession. At a time when some BMA members were saying they couldn't find work, they were unemployed, which the BMA said was completely absurd. With the NHS under so much pressure, there was a little bit more money to help with exam costs and there was this commitment to go through Parliament with legislation to allow employers to give priority to UK elite trained medical graduates. But the response from these members, these resident doctors, is, strike goes ahead. Sorry, not interested.
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A
And there wasn't more money, though, for their pay in this offer?
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C
That's exactly right. That was the one thing missing. And pay has really underscored this whole dispute going right back to the spring of 2023. This will be the 14th strike and the pay demand is they have had up to 29% over three years. West Streeting keeps saying that more than any other public sector union, they want another 20% at least over several years to compensate for inflation. Going all the back to 2008, that was not part of the offer. They've repeated it again today where Streeting has said their demand is a fantasy demand.
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A
And Chris, when Wes Streeting was negotiating with the resident doctors, he wasn't just saying, here's an offer to improve your training and recruitment. He was also saying you, by going on strike, risk the fate of the whole NHS as flu cases are increasing significantly.
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D
Yeah. Again, we've heard from West Streeting and indeed from the Prime Minister, just a sense of exasperation, really, from their perspective, perspective about these strikes. So we're Streeting talking about them being self indulgent, irresponsible and Dangerous. Keir Starmer, who's been in front of MPs this afternoon, as we record at half six on Monday, saying he was very gutted by what was due to happen. Just as I say, I think a sense of frustration. They had hoped in their early months, early year or so if you like, in, in government that they would be able to bring a resolution to what had been a long running issue at the tail end of the Conservative's time in office. And reality of it, the practical reality of what we're confronting this week is that they haven't. And you hear that exasperation in the language that we're streeting and others are using.
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A
And Hugh, I mean, you said this is the, the latest in a very long series into, well into double figures now of these kinds of strikes. How is the NHS coping when they happen?
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C
Well, they've got better and better at it. Early on, when it started in, in 2023, all planned work, elective surgery was cancelled, but they've got better and better at rescheduling. So in the last strike in Nove, NHS England said that about 95% of planned work had gone ahead as normal. It might have been moved the odd day here and there, but at the same time, 39,000 operations and appointments were cancelled. But the worry has been coming up to Christmas, they want to discharge patients from hospitals, they need doctors to do that. There is flu, rising numbers of flu cases and that's the theme that we're streeting and the Prime Minister have been constantly repeating in the last few days. How could you go on strike with this threat? And. But there was a senior NHS official interviewed on Friday on the BBC who when asked about this, said the NHS can cope and I think there's a difference between can cope now and what the really gloomy scenario is for flu, that it could carry on rising towards a bigger peak than before with. There's currently 2,600 patients in hospitals in England with flu. Jim Mackey, the head of NHS England, has said it could be 5 to 8,000, but we haven't got there yet, if at all it is going to happen.
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A
Well, yeah, Hugh, I've just been remembering the conversation we had on newscast last week where I was trying to pick your brains about when the. When NHS England say this flu is unprecedented, what they actually mean by that, and what they mean is unprecedented is the timing in that we're at the numbers we would normally be at in a month's time. So it's not an unprecedented number, it's an unprecedented point at which to have reached that number. Which doesn't actually tell you about the peak.
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C
Well, exactly. It is.
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A
Other than the peak will be earlier than usual, probably.
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C
I think there's a general view there will be a peak. There has to be a peak. It could be earlier than previous bad winters, not that long ago in recent years, when it was normally very late December or early, early January. But, yeah, it's unprecedented for this time of year. It has started rising fast, earlier, by several weeks. That means fewer people have been jabbed. And it's a different. As we discussed, it's a different strain with a mutation, although we're told that the vaccine is working perfectly well, but it's a bit more difficult for older patients. So there is concern about what might happen. But there's a difference between what might happen and what is happening right now.
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D
I wonder, Hugh, without wanting to underplay the im impact of the strikes on individual patients who are inconvenienced, for instance, or indeed anything else, whether the capacity of the nhs, through practice, to deal with these strikes better than perhaps it did, as you were saying, sort of does it either dense the impact of them, which is a relief, no doubt, to some patients and. Or dilutes the kind of moral argument that can be made in the direction of those resident doctors by West Streeting and others talking about how irresponsible this is if the system can cope.
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C
Yeah, it's a very interesting point because actually, the emergency departments and urgent care is staffed by consultants. They're moved in there and they're basically better at saying to people, you're not that ill, you can go somewhere else. They are experienced enough to make that call. And often emergency departments are a bit quieter on strike days because the public think, well, there's a strike, we'll stay away. So urgent emergency care has been as normal as it possibly could be. And patients are always told, if you're seriously ill or if you need to be in ae, just go in there. And in terms of the impact on patients with planned surgery, if it's 95% being seen, yes, it's not that many who are seriously affected. But the big problem is the cost, because the trusts in England have to bring in consultants to do extra shifts, to do overnights, to bring in other locum doctors and so on, and that's costing them about £250 million a time. And that's an argument in West Streeting's armory that we just can't. The NHS can't afford that and something will have to give because. Because at the moment it does have to come from existing budgets.
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A
And Chris, how do ministers and Labour people feel about all of this other than just obviously very frustrated that the strikes are going ahead and they haven't been able to talk the resident doctors around. But I mean, I just remember the time when the Tories were in government and Labour said we would be able to negotiate this better with the, with the unions.
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C
Yeah.
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D
And I think that observation or that claim then goes some way to explaining these aspiration now because I think they did believe that they could and there was perhaps early evidence that suggested that some success in that direction only for these strikes to re emerge. So I think the exasperation is authentic. The language really from West Streeting couldn't get, and indeed from the Prime Minister couldn't really get much more punchy, I don't think so it is that articulation of deep seated frustration. They say they have done what they can, they have done what they claim is affordable. They think there's a massive gap between the desires, the pay desires and demands of the resident doctors and what is realistic given the additional pay rises they've had recently. Of course, as Hugh says, they make an argument about the kind of long term erosion of the kind of purchasing power of their salaries. All of which sort of points to certainly looking at this with political editor hat on and intrigued Hugh, as to your take on this, is that you wonder how this resolves itself and therefore how much. Yeah. The potential longevity of this really.
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C
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, Chris, I was going to ask you and Adam for your take on that with your knowledge of Westminster politics. The key thing now is the resident doctor's ballot. They have to have a new ballot to renew their mandate and that's in January into February. So the government will hope that that support has eroded and they won't get. They need a 50% turnout and more than 50% of that. I guess the hope at Westminster is that the support will erode and they won't get it. But there's no evidence of that, certainly based on this vote, as I said, 83% in favor of the strike on a 65 turnout. So there's every possibility this will drag on through the year. So I suppose the question is how damaging is that that generally to the perception of the government or are the public support for the BMA has fallen consistently, it has to be said.
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D
Yeah. So I think then, I mean, speaking to folk in government, they're aware of that public support argument. And that falling away and perhaps the language that we hear from Mr. Streeting and others potentially contributes to that alongside the experience of patients being inconvenienced. But I think there's also an awareness and this contributes to that exasperation that the BMA are certainly, up until now have been willing to keep on making this argument. They have shown a resilience in making this argument and evidence, as you say, that those numbers are, are holding up. And I think underlying all of this is that frustration on from the government which is perhaps exacerbated with the political reality of it being labouring government at the moment, that they would usually argue and feel that they have a sense of where unionized Labour is, that they are broadly willing to be sympathetic, that they can avoid what they would label as the sort of, we heard this before the election, a sort of antagonism that might exist between a Conservative government and some trade unions. And yet reality is, that is precisely what we're seeing now under Labour.
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C
I guess there's an issue now of how badly or not it'll affect their waiting list targets and the ability to bring waiting lists down. It actually ticked back up again in the latest figures, 7.4 million overall. So there's that question. And I should add, of course, it's not just Westminster. Holyrood will be watching very closely. Ballot of BMA doctors there on potential strike action overpay. And that's due at the end of this week, I think.
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A
Two things for you, Hugh, before we end this bit of the episode. Does the offer from west treating on the training things that we were discussing, does that still stand? Are we still going to get emergency legislation to fix those problems even though the strike is going ahead?
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C
Very interesting point. And I put it to West Reading's people, it's sort of being held in limbo and won't be reintroduced unless there's a serious move by the BMA to sit around the table and work towards a final deal. So I think the point about the legislation is interesting because if that's held back, I don't know, does that make it harder to actually get it through? So I think we need to keep asking that question, but it's certainly not on the table right now.
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A
Okay, and second point, how different is the language and the tone and the feelings from resident doctors who are just doing the job versus the leadership of the resident doctors on the bma? Do you. Do you detect a difference or actually, is it kind of the same at whatever level you're at?
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C
I think the Rhetoric, I mean the most fiery rhetoric has come from the government and the BMA did say on Saturday that it was scare mongering. But the resident doctors committee are not going out really attacking the government. They've sort of got on with this process in terms of doctors who are members. It just has to be based on a personal impression. I don't sense any great deviation from the line that the BMA are taking consultants. Are they anecdotally getting a bit fed up with it, having to do all this cover? Well, I think if it's over Christmas or New Year and they have to cancel their holidays, that's never popular. But you know, again you hear different stories. Is support waning or not? It's hard to tell.
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A
And I suppose Chris, if we're streeting had a strategy of trying to peel off the members from the leadership. Well, the big data point we've got to today of the massive support for the strikes going ahead proves that that strategy is not working or isn't going to work.
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D
It does really, doesn't it? And which then points to or hints at the prospect of the sort of longevity of this well into next year and who knows where beyond that. When you have the stickiness of this argument, whatever people's views on it coming from the BMA about that kind of historic mismatch they say, between where their pay has ended up and therefore making demands that repeatedly governments say are are unrealistic. I should just mention in the context of the conversation going on at Westminster that the Conservatives are talking, as they have for a while, about this idea of banning doctor strikes. You wonder where that argument might go as this argument between the union and the government rumbles on into the new year.
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A
Hugh, thank you very much.
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C
Pleasure as always.
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A
And Chris, before you go, this weekend we're doing our first set of festive treats for newscasters. Oh yeah, we're gonna do some of the best bits of the 25 hour long podcast a thon.
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D
Oh, are we?
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A
Yeah. I hope your memory's better of it than mine because mine's quite hazy, especially the last sort of 17 hours of it.
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C
I made a very brief appearance, Adam, and I wouldn't expect you to remember 25 hours. It was the beginning of the last night at one minute past seven. Yes, we got the news straight to you on newscast.
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A
Yeah. You were on the way to a picket line. I was, I remember very clearly.
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C
Well, I'm honored that you do.
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A
Yes, we did.
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C
Great statement by you.
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A
Yeah. Breaking news.
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C
Yeah, indeed.
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A
So thank you for keeping me company in the last two hours of that 25 hour. I'm not sure we'll be able to smuggle that bit into the best bits.
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D
But you never know what's gonna get in.
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A
Well, I don't wanna. You'll have to listen this weekend.
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All right?
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C
Okay.
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A
Always, always be, always be selling the. Selling our wares, selling forwards.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So that will be Saturday and Sunday's newscast instead of Laura and Paddy. Although they will pop up in the best of the 25 hours. And don't worry, they're not gonna be 25 hours long. We're not splitting it into two 12 and a half hour long episodes. There'll be normal left condensed. Chris. See you later. Have you ever wiped with a piece of dry single ply toilet paper and wondered, is this as good as it gets? Well, it's not. It gets a lot better. Thanks to the wet extra large cleaning power of Dude Wipes, they comfortably clean up whatever TP leaves behind on your behind. It's time to stop being an A hole to your B hole and start experiencing the confident clean of Dude Wipes. Available at Amazon and at major retailers nationwide. Dude Wipes Best clean, Pants down. You ever feel that deep pull to the land to know it? To build something that lasts, that itch.
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Land.Com it's your place to find your open space. If you've got a move coming up, you really need to look into United Van Lines, the Do it all moving specialists. With United Van Lines, you don't worry about a thing. You have a dedicated moving coordinator, qualified drivers and full value protection for your possessions. Compare that to a couple of dudes manhandling your family heirlooms or cramming your things in a container on your driveway. Rather than hope for the best, you deserve a hassle free move. Visit unitedvanlines.com Big moves, small moves, all moves Easy choice. Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them A Guardian bike, the easiest, safest and number one kids bike on the market. With USA Made Kids specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Year up to 40% in savings on all bikes plus $100 in free accessories. Guardian bikes have become the most sought after gifts of the season. And inventory is going fast. So don't wait. Join over half a million happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Shop now@guardianbikes.com that's guardianbikes.com. Now, as promised, lots of European leaders are heading to Berlin where they are meeting with Vladimir Zielinski, the Ukrainian president who's been there for a day or two now. And this comes as there are some very positive sounding noises coming from the Germans who are hosting this meeting. So let's catch up now with Katya Adler who is there in Berlin. Hi, Katja.
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B
Hello.
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A
Just explain where you are.
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B
First of all, I'm in a box in the BBC Berlin office, but I think you mean Berlin. I'm in Berlin, which has been host to two days of really intense diplomacy, mainly between Ukrainian and US negotiators. But there have been European officials going in and out all of the time as part of all of these weeks and months that we've had of trying to find a ceasefire in Ukraine and along with long lasting peace deal for Ukraine. And I've just come in from the freeze, it's freezing out there, from a press conference where a very triumphant sounding, Friedrich Merz, the German chancellor who said in all of this time, these international efforts, trying to sort out what's going on in Ukraine. He thinks these have been the two most successful days to date. That's quite a claim to make. And obviously progress has been made. We heard from U.S. officials. They say 90% of the issues have been resolved. It sounds like a lot, but from my perspective, when it comes to the two thorniest issues which haven't changed, it's basically what kind of security guarantees is Ukraine going to get from the US and from the Europeans to make sure that Russia isn't tempted to just invade again at a later stage. And what about the territory that Moscow's demanding as a precursor to signing a peace agreement? What about that in Ukraine's east? We've had very, very little detail come.
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A
Out about that, okay, so what do we think is making Friedrich Merz feel so positive then? If those two sticking points are still.
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B
Looking incredibly sticky, really upbeat tones from the United States. I mean, Adam, you know, I can't emphasize enough what an incredibly low point relations between Washington and, you know, European leaders have reached in recent times. I mean, we've had Donald Trump really dismissing the Europeans and when it comes to Ukraine, kind of blaming, it seemed, Ukraine and the Europeans for the fact that a ceasefire deal isn't already in place. He's dismissed the Europeans as weak and essentially, I mean, I'm paraphrasing him, described them as a talking shop that can't come up with the goods. But you had, you know, two. Well, you had a number of U.S. officials here, but, you know, the headliners were Steve Witkoff, the special envoy, and also Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son in law. And they were sent as the two main negotiators. And, and the general tone from US Officials this evening has been extremely positive. You know, that so much praise, they said they can barely find the words to praise, particularly the input of the British, the French and the Germans in these negotiations. Very, very keen to emphasize that Donald Trump, you know, there's been accusations, some more subtle, some less subtle from Europeans, a feeling that Donald Trump has put perhaps closer to Moscow or prioritizing Moscow's desires when it comes to a ceasefire than Ukraine, really leaning on Ukraine. But the message this evening was Donald Trump wants a bright future for Ukraine, a viable future for that country, you know, to go on. He wants to provide the kind of security guarantees, Article 5, like they're described, you know, so the kind of security guarantee that NATO members enjoy and that also when it comes to the, that thorny issue of territory and these US Officials saying that Donald Trump recognizes that it's up to Ukraine to decide what to do with its territory. On the other hand, we also heard this evening from Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He was standing next to the German chancellor at this press conference I was at. And he said, look, I feel like I was listened to. My perspective was listened to. When it comes to territory, which is basically a red line, Ukraine does not want to give up territory to Russia that Russia hasn't grabbed already by force. But he said that when it comes to all the different parties involved in these negotiations, they are still very far apart. But I think what you will have this evening, considering all the divisions that we've seen, and particularly, you know, amongst traditional allies, US And Europe over Ukraine is a real show of unity. The US Negotiators are staying for a working dinner at a very high level. We've got European leaders pouring in from all over the continent. It includes Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron of France, the prime ministers of Poland, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands. And they're going to sort of continue discussing these issues. So that will look very unified. That is a very different tone. So that's something that Friedrich Meltzer will be proud of, that it happened here, you know, on German soil. On the other hand, who's not at the dinner table, Adam? Well, of course Vladimir Putin isn't there and he'll have a lot to say about any of the progress that is being reported as having taken place over these last two days.
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A
Yeah, and it was interesting today here in London because we heard from somebody who we don't hear a lot from. It's the relatively new head of MI6, Blaise Metroelli. She was doing a speech about global security and the kind of work MI6 is doing. And there's a big passage of her speech which was about potential negotiations with Russia. And here's what she said about Vladimir Putin.
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B
We all continue to face the menace of an aggressive expansionist and revisionist Russia seeking to subjugate Ukraine and harass NATO. I find it harrowing that hundreds of thousands have died with the toll mounting every day because of Putin's historical distortions and his compromised desire for respect. He is dragging out negotiations and shifting the cost of war onto his own population. But Putin should be in no doubt our support is enduring. The pressure we apply on Ukraine's behalf will be sustained because it is fundamental not just to European sovereignty and security.
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A
But to global stability. And yes, Katja, that then raises the prospect of, okay, if these talks in Berlin go as well as they can do, which would be a united Ukrainian, European, American position. Well, I suppose the next stage is putting it to the Russians, who have been pretty intractable throughout.
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B
Well, that's what I mean. Vladimir Putin isn't here for dinner to kind of chew over the progress that was made or this or this so called united front. And that is absolutely key. And there's been no indication to date that Russia is willing to accept anything short of its march maximalist demands. I mean, there's even been, you know, hints from the Kremlin that, you know, they still stick to their point that it's not only about Ukraine and the future of Ukraine. And, you know, an absolute red line for Russia was Ukraine's request insistence on Joining NATO, which is something that Volodymyr Zelensky has stepped back from during these days in Berlin. But he said he wants these strong security guarantees. But Russia has always insisted that, that NATO rolled back its missions and its presence east of basically in what Russia sees as its neighborhood, so east of what was the Iron Curtain during the Cold War. And that, of course, is something that NATO's not going to want to do. The NATO Secretary General Mark Rutter is here at the dinner this evening. And of course, just at the end of last week, he was saying, we're next, Europe's next, it's Ukraine. If Ukraine falls, then we, the rest of Europe, are next. So buckle up basically and get ready to be on a war footing in Europe is what he has to say. Friedrich Metz, also the German chancellor here, he said this is Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine and aggression against the rest of Europe. So, you know, I think the European leaders have been often questioned as to, oh, they're being sidelined and America's not listening. And this is essentially between Washington and Moscow with, you know, Ukraine being brought in now and again. But for the Europeans, that, I think they felt that to date they haven't been able to let go, they've had to show up, they've had to organize these meetings of the so called coalition of the willing because they think this isn't just about the future sovereignty of Ukraine, it's about the future security of this whole continent. Because this feeling that if Russia gets too much in this ceasefire, if it's seen as being too soft on Moscow or even rewarding Moscow for its aggression in Ukraine, that it will just come back for more later on. And possibly not just in Ukraine, if you listen to NATO. So they say by 2029, the Germans say this as well, Russia will be able to invade a NATO member state. Now it's also, Adam, it isn't just about tanks or Russia rolling tanks into NATO countries because, you know, we can see Russia is overstretched. You know, this has been a very expensive war that they've now had for about four years in Ukraine. But it's about the kind of so called hybrid warfare that we're seeing more and more of. You know, those drone sightings that we're seeing over civilian airports, but also military airports, airports right across Europe, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, you know, that explosion on the Polish railway that could have cost a lot of lives. It's those kind of things weakening, destabilizing European societies. That is of real concern to Europe's leaders also, as you just mentioned, I mean security services in the UK and more widespread across the continent. And that is why the Europeans are absolutely sticking, working with these talks, want to be part of a peace deal and writing a final peace deal for Ukraine if it is agreed, because they want to make sure that a stable Ukraine emerges and a stable, secure Europe emerges too.
- [30:29]
A
And Katja, just as you were talking, I see the statement from the European leaders who are there this evening has landed and they talk about both the US and European leaders committing to work together to provide robust security guarantees and economic recovery support. And then there's a few bullet points which are important here. Talk about providing sustained and significant support to Ukraine to build its armed forces which should remain at a PeaceTime level of 800,000 to be able to deter conflict and defend Ukraine's territory. They then talk about European led multinational force Ukraine, made up of contributions from willing nations within the framework of the coalition of the willing. And then a US led ceasefire monitoring and verification mechanism to provide early warning of any future attack. And then a legally binding commitment subject to national procedures to take measures to restore peace and security in the case of a future armed attack. So lots to decode there. But that, that, that statement in words really just backs up what you were saying there.
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B
Well, that's a lot more detail than we were given at the press conferences. Absolutely.
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A
Yeah. But it really backs up your analysis of what you were just saying from what you were hearing. So there it is now kind of in black and white and to be decoded over the next few days.
- [31:42]
B
Yes, and of course, I mean that awful phrase about the devil being in the details, but it always is in this kind of thing. And you know what Ukraine has pointed out, and I think this is where Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he felt he was listened to here is when it comes to security guarantees in the past, he feels that he's been let down by promises from his allies. So for example, when Ukraine was persuaded to give up its nuclear weapons in the 1990s, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the crumbling of the Soviet Union Union, he was given individual security guarantees by the us, by China, Russia, by European powers like the United Kingdom and France as well. But actually he feels that in the end Ukraine was squashed by Russia and Russia was able to take the measures that it did because Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons. Also after Russia annexed Crimea, again, there were all sorts of assurances, Germany and France said, with the Minsk agreements. And again, they feel that they were let down. And that's why when they say security guarantees, you know, security guarantees, schmecurity guarantees, whatever, you know, it's not good just to talk about them. There has to be real, concrete detail. Ukraine has to know that it can rely on its allies and that Moscow knows most of all, it's about Moscow realizing that Ukraine's allies are serious and that if it comes back and tries to attack Ukraine again, it won't. You won't just, in inverted commas, have to deal with Kyiv or, you know, have to wait for military aid. But actually, you're going to get the full force of these allies behind Ukraine. So, yeah, those details are very, very, very important to Kyiv.
- [33:23]
A
Katya, thank you very much. Good to catch up.
- [33:25]
B
Nice to see you.
- [33:26]
A
And just reading that statement, one clause that jumps out at me right at the start is it says both the US and European leaders committed to blah, blah, blah. Now, that's written to make it look like it's the US leaders and European leaders together. Actually, it's the US officials who are there in the form of Steve Witkoff, I think, and European leaders. So actually, this is still all contingent on Donald Trump signing up to this, even before it's then presented to the Russians. And finally, congratulations to newscaster Enid, who has come up with the winning title for our new new World cup themed newscast gimmick. It's Supporter Reporter. And as a reminder, we're looking for a newscaster who lives in or has genuine, convincing, interesting connections to the countries that are in the World cup next year in North America. And there's 48 of them, so there's lots of opportunities for newscast gimmickry here. So that supporter reporter coming your way throughout 2026. And thanks again to Ema for the title. Right, that's all for this episode of Newscast. I am on a training course for a couple of days, so I will leave you in the very safe hands of Victoria Derbyshire of Newscast of Newsnight. She won't be making mistakes like that, will she? Right, that's all. See you soon. Bye bye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [34:54]
B
From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of.
- [35:02]
A
Chris Mason, ooze stamina.
- [35:04]
B
Can I also gently encourage you to.
- [35:06]
A
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