Does Labour’s Leadership Race Mean A Battle Over Brexit?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Newscast – "Does Labour’s Leadership Race Mean A Battle Over Brexit?"

Date: May 17, 2026
Hosts: Laura Kuenssberg, Paddy O’Connell, Henry Zeffman
Key Contributor: Lisa Nandy

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Overview

This episode of BBC’s Newscast focuses on the rapidly unfolding drama within the Labour Party, prompted by the ongoing leadership speculation following mounting pressure on Keir Starmer. The central question: will Labour’s leadership race turn into a proxy battle over the UK’s relationship with the European Union? The conversation orbits around Wes Streeting’s headline-grabbing comments on rejoining the EU, Andy Burnham’s challenge, and the broader implications for the party and the country, particularly in the context of the upcoming Makerfield by-election.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context and Parallels

• By-election trivia: The episode opens with a lively historical comparison. Henry Zeffman notes the unique situation of Alec Douglas-Home in 1963, drawing a somewhat tongue-in-cheek parallel to Andy Burnham’s ambitions in Makerfield by-election (01:18–03:12).
• Prime Ministerial precedent: Discussion on whether a Prime Minister must be an MP – with references to the Duke of Wellington and the evolution of political norms (03:12–03:50).

2. Wes Streeting’s ‘Rejoin’ Position

• A game-changing statement: Laura Kuenssberg highlights that Wes Streeting’s open wish for Britain to eventually rejoin the EU represents a “massive step change” after years dominated by Brexit discourse (04:34–06:30).

  “The government appears likely by the end of the year to be led by somebody who says openly that they want the UK to go back into the European Union…”
  — Henry Zeffman (05:08)

• Shift within Labour: Both Streeting and Burnham have indicated support for rejoining the EU, making Brexit a live issue again within Labour politics.

3. Internal Resistance and Nuance

• Lisa Nandy’s reaction: Lisa Nandy, Culture Secretary, offers a pragmatic critique, wary of reopening the Brexit debate in Leave-voting Labour heartlands (07:09–08:46):

  “I don’t really understand why the sudden focus on Europe. We’re already, as a government, trying to repair...without reopening the circular arguments…”
  — Lisa Nandy (07:09)

• Local context: Nandy underscores the economic decline in Leave areas pre-dating Brexit, pushing back against framing all solutions through an EU lens.

4. Labour Leadership Dynamics and Strategic Positioning

• Ambiguity and tension: Laura reflects on Nandy’s “weird position” — publicly loyal to Starmer, yet out campaigning with Burnham, highlighting the fluid loyalties and political calculation underway (09:04–09:30).
• Possible outcomes: Zeffman suggests two scenarios:
  • Burnham wins Makerfield → Immediate move on leadership, little room for compromise.
  • Burnham loses → Increased anxiety among Labour MPs, likely triggering a contest anyway (09:30–10:44).
• Nutcracker theory: Discussion on whether Streeting’s “Rejoin” comments are designed to squeeze Burnham in a Leave constituency (10:44–11:14).

5. Voter Demographics and Changing Attitudes

• Who are the Makerfield voters now? The hosts note the complexity of voter identity, cautioning against assuming past voting behaviour (Leave/Remain) maps neatly onto current opinions (12:47–13:45).

  “News flash. People who live in the same place don’t all think the same thing. Second, news flash. People who thought something 10 years ago don’t necessarily think the same thing…”
  — Laura Kuenssberg (12:47)

• Polling insight: Andy Burnham’s personal popularity in the Makerfield area far exceeds that of the Labour Party, suggesting a “personality, not policy” dynamic for this by-election (13:45–15:26).

6. Potential for an Uncontested Burnham Coronation

• Some within Labour see the prospect of a Burnham “coronation” should he win Makerfield, with Zeffman reporting views that there may not even be a contest, and Burnham could be Prime Minister within a week (15:26–16:44).

  “If Andy Burnham can win a constituency like this in a national polling environment like this, then he deserves a coronation and he could well be Prime Minister within a week…”
  — Henry Zeffman (15:26)

7. Mandate Problems and Party Unity

• Kuenssberg raises the “mandate problem”: Burnham could become PM without a general election or party leadership contest, echoing “Gordon Brown’s problem” of lacking a direct electoral mandate (16:44–18:10).
• Burnham’s strong local appeal doesn’t universally translate across Labour’s ranks.

8. Other Parties and the National Picture

• Reform UK, Greens, and Tories are discussed as potential spoilers or challengers in Makerfield, with Paddy O’Connell reminding listeners more than Labour is at play (18:10–18:37).
• Tories’ irrelevance in current by-election narratives is highlighted, showing a significant deterioration for the traditional opposition (19:55–21:24).
• Upcoming Scottish by-election previewed in the context of oil and gas politics.

9. Policy Questions for Candidates

• The show flags key policy issues like North Sea drilling (Jackdaw, Rosebank fields) and whether Streeting or Burnham will set out any substantive changes from Labour’s last manifesto, which prominently featured Keir Starmer (21:55–22:47).

10. Campaign Optics and Local Flavor

• Lighter moments include the North West’s culinary quirks—a debate over “scrap barns” vs “chip rolls” (24:07–25:38), with local authenticity seen as vital for candidates.
• Andy Burnham’s regional ties, football fandom, and “vibes politician” reputation are expected themes as the campaign ramps up (26:16–26:41).

11. Looking Ahead: Limbo and Uncertainty

• Parliamentary proceedings, including the King’s Speech and PMQs, will provide dramatic backdrops as Starmer attempts to hang on, perhaps even as a contender in his own leadership race (29:44–30:37).
• Regardless of outcome, the Makerfield by-election is seen as potentially decisive for the country’s political direction (29:04–29:40).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Streeting’s Rejoin stance

  “The Labour Party appears likely by the end of the year to be led by somebody...who says openly that they want the UK to go back into the European Union.”
  — Henry Zeffman (05:08)

• On the risks of reopening the Brexit debate

  “We’re already...trying to repair...the needless damage...without reopening the circular arguments...”
  — Lisa Nandy (07:09)

• On shifting voter sentiments

  “People who thought something 10 years ago don’t necessarily think the same thing now.”
  — Laura Kuenssberg (12:47)

• On Burnham’s possible coronation

  “He could well be Prime Minister within a week of that by-election.”
  — Henry Zeffman (15:26)

• On the “mandate problem”

  “Being chosen by the good people of Makerfield is not the same as being chosen by the electorate at large or by his own political party.”
  — Laura Kuenssberg (16:44)

• Local flavor—scrap barns versus chip rolls

  “Apparently...Will Self should have said a scrap barn. And, of course, when it comes to a chip shop, Paddy, you know what scraps are, right?”
  — Laura Kuenssberg (24:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Historical context & by-election trivia: 01:18–03:12
• Wes Streeting’s ‘rejoin the EU’ comments: 04:34–06:30
• Lisa Nandy on Europe & local interests: 07:09–08:46
• Discussion on Starmer’s position and Labour contest scenarios: 09:30–10:44
• Makerfield, voter identity, and polling insights: 12:47–15:26
• “Burnham coronation” debate: 15:26–16:44
• Mandate problem, party unity: 16:44–18:10
• Other parties’ relevance and by-election field: 18:10–21:24
• Oil and gas/North Sea policy: 21:55–22:47
• Local campaign authenticity—food, fandoms: 24:07–26:41
• Closing: Parliamentary limbo, leadership race uncertainty: 29:44–30:37

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Conclusion

This episode captures both the high political drama and the peculiar local flavor of a historic moment for Labour and for British politics. The Makerfield by-election stands as a potential hinge point: not just for party leadership but for the UK’s future relationship with Europe. The personalities, policy debates, and regional quirks on full display mark the start of an unpredictable, possibly transformative contest—with much still to play for.

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Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

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[Paddy O'Connell]

we have a group WhatsApp we do. Last night during Eurovision, Henry Zeffman posted a weird, nerdy, geeky piece of old thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Not about Eurovision, a piece of old thing. So when he should have been concentrating on sequins and tiaras and very strange European dance anthems, Henry gave us an excellent piece of political trivia. The 1963 Kinross in Western Perthshire by election.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I'll just say it was about another Prime Minister who needed to be in the House of Commons rather than the House of Lords. And this was pointed to us by 1Hz.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So Hz, why is that pertinent now?

[Henry Zeffman]

Well, because I know how to live it up on a Saturday night. I was listening to yesterday's newscast rather than watching Eurovision, of which I'm not a massive fan, I have to confess. And I I heard your excellent discussion of Patrick Gordon Walker in 1964, in which a by election settled whether he got 65. Sorry, after the 1964 general election got to settle whether he became or remained rather Harold Wilson's Foreign Secretary or not. But I thought, hang on, a couple of years earlier there was an even bigger by election because how Alec Douglas Hume, as the Earl of Hume, had become the Prime Minister and he decided that you couldn't in that day and age be Prime Minister from the House of Lords. So he disclaimed his earldom to become an mp. So for a few weeks he was Prime Minister without sitting in either House of Parliament. And he said, I'm going to fight this by election and become Prime Minister from the House of Commons. Now, he actually won by miles, but presumably if he'd lost the by election, that would have meant that after a few weeks he'd have had to resign as Prime Minister. So to me, that is a kind of reverse Andy Burnham, where if he wins this makerfield by election, he gets to become Prime Minister, at least in the eyes of many in the Labour Party. And I thought that was quite an interesting parallel. But now that I'm talking about it, rather than just sending a brief WhatsApp, I'm losing confidence in the interestingness or otherwise of this.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Laura didn't reply, but I did, because I've been looking at the Hansard Society and their podcast and there's no reason under our rules why you have to be in the House of Commons to be the Prime Minister. You do have to command the confidence of mps. But I give you the Duke of Wellington, who was Prime Minister twice. He was an MP twice, incidentally. Once in the Irish. An Irish mp, once as a British mp. But when he was Prime Minister, he was not in the House of Commons, Henry. So I don't. I don't think under our rules you have to be in the House of Commons, you have to command the confidence of the Commons.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Dare I bring us 20, 26?

[Paddy O'Connell]

How must you?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I'm afraid I must, because it is, after all, Sunday's episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.

[Henry Zeffman]

Six, seven.

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

Daddy has. Has also a special quotation. Ooh la.

[Henry Zeffman]

Oh, thinking about it like a panter helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

History podcasts do very well, Paddy, don't they? That's why I never listen to them. Well, apparently they do very well, although I know a lot of people listen to them when they have insomnia. Anyway, it's Laura in the studio.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Patty in the studio and

[Henry Zeffman]

it's Henry at home.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So yesterday, just as the news was breaking in the afternoon, Henry, Paddy and I did a. A bit of a. A quick take on what's probably the most interesting policy thing that's happened so far in this shadow leadership election to replace Keira Starmer, which is where streeting standing up and saying One day. One day. And I'm sure he said it twice deliberately. One day. One day I would like to go back into the European Union and it's really interesting. That's something we know lots of labor politicians have thought for a long time, but it's something that most of them would never have dared said out loud,

[Henry Zeffman]

I think in a week of hyperbole. This actually is really, really significant because we can make this about Wes Treating's attempts to carve out his distinctive platform in the run up to a Labour leadership contest that he wants to take place and in which he wants to be a candidate. We can talk about Andy Burnham's stance on the EU in a constituency where lots of people voted to leave the European Union almost ten years ago now. But I think the word for the trees here is this. The Labour Party appears likely by the end of the year to be led by somebody. Sorry, not even the Labour Party. The government appears likely by the end of the year to be led by somebody who says openly that they want the UK to go back into the European Union, even at some point, even with that qualification. That is a massive step change in how the government is approaching. The European Union does as well as streeting. Burnham has said it. Burnham has said it on several occasions and he. It'll be interesting to see whether he wants to say it and how he wants to couch it over the next few weeks. But he can't recile from what he has said, which is the same thing, which is that he wants at some point in his lifetime, I think was his phrase, the UK to go back into the European Union. There's a massive shift after 10 years where British politics has been dominated by leaving the European Union.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So we can meet a new group, the rejoiners. But. But interestingly, there is going to be huge resistance to this and I suspect that Andy Burnham might find very different language to wear street Singh's language about this in the coming weeks. This is what their colleague Lisa Nandi, who's the Culture Secretary, said to us this morning about this. And just bear in mind when you listen to her, that whole patch where this byelection is taking place, where Lisa Nandi's constituency is, where many Labour mps have. Their constituencies were areas that voted to leave very, very, very strongly. So that's the context. These people represent areas where leaving the European Union was the decision very strongly of the majority of people.

[Lisa Nandy]

I actually think this is just a bit odd. I listened to what Wes had to say very carefully yesterday and I know that he's got a strong view about this and always has had, that we shouldn't have left the European Union. And, you know, frankly, that's one that I share. I campaigned for Remain. I think it was a mistake and I think the Brexit deal has been a real problem for us. But I don't really understand why the sudden focus on Europe. We're already, as a government, trying to repair, in a pragmatic way the needless damage that was done by that poor Brexit deal to people's living standards in towns like mine, without reopening the circular arguments that we ended up in as a country. And frankly, if the answer to all of this was the European Union, then essentially we'd be saying to people what was going on in 2015 in towns like Wigan was absolutely fine. Well, I can tell you that it wasn't that people's living standards had been falling, people's high streets had been falling apart, people's kids had had to get out to get on for some time. And that's to do with deindustrialization and the failure of governments to address it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I know that you've written about and campaigned about for a long time. When it comes though, to this chaos that, as you said, Labour turned in on itself, and I noticed that you said, the men who have done it this week, if there is a contest, you've run for leader before, maybe it is time for a female leader. Would you rule yourself out of the contest?

[Lisa Nandy]

Yeah, I would. I said at the time that never again. I mean, I can't say it's an enormously enjoyable experience. But look, I put my Christmas in

[Laura Kuenssberg]

lots of interviews like this. Mr. Nandy, no, it'd be great. We could do it again.

[Lisa Nandy]

I honestly think that Keir, I mean, he won that contest, Fairing Square in 2019, he won the election. We owe it to him to pull together as a team. But I make no apology for saying, and he agrees that Andy Burnham and other people from other parts of the country are really important voices and all of that.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It was interesting this morning, Henry, that Lisa Nandy was in, I think, a pretty weird position, to be honest. So she said, paddy of the program, what it's up to Keir Starmer, what he does next. And yes, I'm still on the Prime Minister's team. And yes, if I thought that he should be replaced, then I would have quit the Cabinet. So I don't think he should be replaced.

[Henry Zeffman]

But.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, actually, I was out campaigning with Andy Burnham yesterday and if Keir Starmer wants to run in the leadership contest. Well, that's got to be a personal decision for him. It was quite weird, wasn't it?

[Henry Zeffman]

I mean, prepare for the next weird five, six weeks. As we see the extent to which Sir Keir Starmer, who spent the whole week fighting much harder than some of his internal opponents and even allies predicted to stay in office, has to navigate the reality that is the widespread assumption of Labour MPs now that there's going to be a leadership contest within a few weeks. Really, I think that is fair to say, because either Andy Burnham wins this by election in Makerfield, we should say, by the way, he's not formally the Labour candidate yet, but he clearly is going to be the Labour candidate. So either Andy Burnham wins this by election, and if he does, I think we're past the point where Keir Starmer can say, come on in and be Home Secretary or whatever it is. I don't think that staging post is there anymore. I think it would be a near immediate tilt at the leadership or Andy Burnham can't win this by election, at which point Labour MPs will be even more anxious about their prospects at the next general election in seats like Makerfield, of which there are many, at which point you probably topple into a leadership election anyway for that reason. So how he behaves this week and going forwards, I think is fascinating.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Is Wes Streeting trying to put Andy Burnham into a nutcracker because Makerfield voted Leave? So Jess Phillips has come out this morning backing Wes Streeting, Joss Simons is backing Andy Burnham, and if you chuck the grenade of Europe into Makerfield in a Leave seat, Henry, say I. It's designed to make Andy Burnham look like a Remainer.

[Henry Zeffman]

Look, it's. You're not the first person I've heard posit that theory. And there is a lot of. You know, there are a lot of people in the Labour Party who, after the week that they've had, are willing to think the worst of their colleagues in terms of their motives for doing certain things. However, as Lisa Nandy said to Laura West, Streeting has long held this position. And even as a member of Keir Starmer's cabinet, bound by collective Cabinet responsibility, he pushed the envelope at various points as far as possible. For example, he essentially called for the UK to join the European Customs Union several months ago, even when that is very much not Keir Starmer's policy. So I think that's one important detail. And then I think the other important detail, as I was mentioning earlier, Andy Burnham has already said as mayor of Greater Manchester that he thinks the UK should rejoin the EU at some point. So I don't think it required Wes Streeting saying this for Reform UK and others to make the European Union a feature of this by election campaign in a seat which voted to leave 10 years ago. Just one other thing, quickly, we should reflect. Just because Makerfield voted pretty heavily to leave the European Union doesn't mean that all, or indeed perhaps most of the voters Andy Burnham needs to win in Makerfield voted to leave the European Union 10 years ago. And there's always that question about the extent to which in leave voting seats, Labour candidates need to appeal to those who voted Leave 10 years ago, rather than a sort of slightly messier mix of those who voted remain and perhaps some of those who voted to leave.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, and that's a really good point. You know, people who live. News flash. People who live in the same place don't all think the same thing. Second, news flash. People who thought something 10 years ago don't necessarily think the same thing that they thought 10 years ago. But it is interesting. And I say the minister got in touch with me yesterday once this happened. Just saying. I'm just completely depressed already by this going into this debate. This is a debate that Labor Party members will enjoy, right? Because Labor Party members are overwhelmingly, maybe not all of them, but overwhelmingly people who didn't want to leave the European Union. This is the kind of thing that will tickle their tummies. That is not necessarily the same thing as what the public at large would think. And it'd be really interesting to hear from newscasters. You know, do people listening to this podcast want this country to have a big constitutional debate again about our place in the world, whether or not we should follow laws that are made in Brussels? Maybe we should, because that might help the economy. Maybe we should stay where we are but get a better deal, which is what the government is trying to do already.

[Lisa Nandy]

But.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But it's interesting, we know that in labor circles people will enjoy talking about this. And a minister said to me a few weeks ago, I think whoever's next should make a big play for going back in, because that would be something we could all rally around. But the internal party politics are very different to the politics of the country at large. But what was also interesting this morning was this. You know, the, the Burnham effect is something that is going to be tested in the next six weeks. Right. Forget the issues for a second. When you look at the numbers and we got Luke Trill from The polling organization more in common. To look at this this morning, yes, Makerfield has got one of the highest leave voting constituencies. It's like almost right up at the top of the graph. But when you look at the performance of the Labour Party compared to the personal performance of Andy Burnham in that part of the world, he is by some distance much more popular than the Labour Party itself. So in a way, whatever the issues are, and I'm sort of drifting off a bit, this by election, I'm afraid, is going to come down to personality. It just. It just is. That's the kind of politician that Andy Burnham is. He's a sort of vibes politician. Some people would say that as a criticism, some people would say that as a jolly good thing in this era. And I think while Labour will tie itself in knots over this European issue and as Henry says, it's really significant actually when it comes to it. I don't think that this by election or indeed this leadership contest, if it comes, is going to be about policy. That might be a dreadful thing. Some people think that's a terrible thing and everything should all be about policy. But I just don't think that that's the moment we're in.

[Henry Zeffman]

I think one other thing just to say, and I'm sure, Laura, you've been picking up the same from MPs and ministers and Cabinet ministers over the past few days, is that for all that Wes Streeting is laying out his pitch in what he wants to be the battle of ideas and presumably will keep doing so over the next few weeks. There are people I've been speaking to on Wes Treating's wing of the Labour Party who actually do not believe there is going to be a leadership contest if Andy Burnham wins this by election. That is not what West Streeting hopes for. But I've heard from several people who say if Andy Burnham can win a constituency like this in a national polling environment like this, then he deserves a coronation and he could well be Prime Minister within a week of that by election. It's not necessarily a consensus view, but I think it is a emerging view and one we should keep watch for, especially given that we're treating the core of his case yesterday was the Labour Party hasn't had a debate amongst itself about what it stands for for a decade now. I mean, just. No, I think perhaps slightly underappreciated. He said that the pretext on which Keir Starmer won the leadership of the Labour Party was dishonest. I mean, just quite, quite fascinating criticism from somebody who you know, was presumably pleased that Keir Starmer as leader, did move in his direction.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think, without question, there's going to be a strong push from a lot of quarters in the Labour Party just to put Andy Barnum more or less straight into number 10 if he wins in Makerfield. But if they do that, he's immediately running into a mandate problem. I mean, he's going to have a massive mandate problem anyway if he ends up there, because he'd be a Prime Minister if it happens, he'd be a Prime Minister who has not won a general election. And that, for his opponents, is an absolute gift. And there will be immediate pressure on Andy Barnum if he ends up in number 10 to call a general election. Now, I'm not saying he would have to do that. He'd be inheriting a massive majority from Keir Starmer. Perhaps he can improve Labour's fortunes, perhaps he can't. But if there isn't even a Labour leadership contest, that's going to be a sort of double mandate problem. And the last person to find that out to their cost was Gordon Brown. You know, if he doesn't. If he hasn't even been chosen by his party, being chosen by the good people of Makerfield is not the same as being chosen by the general election, by the electorate at large, or being chosen by his own political party. And I said this yesterday, but Andy Burnham is not universally popular in the Labour Party. Everybody acknowledges that he has great personal popularity in the northwest of England, but he is not universally liked. And I think that's important to acknowledge.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And also we should say many other political parties are available other than the Labour Party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Absolutely.

[Paddy O'Connell]

One of them is Reform and they will pick their candidate today.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's right. And there'll be huge focus then, of course, on who that is, because they are going to be the main opponents to Andy Barnum and they are going to throw everything they possibly can at this by election. There's also, as we've touched on yesterday, there's a question mark about whether or not the Greens will run a candidate. I think there's a bit of a split between the local Greens and Green hq.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Let's talk about the Conservatives.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

You had the leader of the party on the programme today and presumably she's rubbing her hands, although I seem to remember she left the government of Boris Johnson whilst he was Prime Minister. So she knows a little bit about trying to get a PM dislodged.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

She does. And I tried to ask her, actually, if she had any advice for any of Stammer's ministers about what to do. I mean, I think the case she was trying to make this morning, very forcefully, was that it doesn't make any difference who the leader is, because the problem is with the Labour Party and their proposals and their plans, or lack thereof, as she would see it. And I think that obviously is going to be her argument around this, is that they are a shower. But what's more important is that they don't have the right ideas for the country, they can't make decisions and they're hurtling off in the wrong direction. It will be very interesting to see what happens to Kemi Badenoch if there is a change of leader, because she, you know, opposition leaders define themselves against the Prime Minister. That's what happens. And so for all that, she can say, well, it's terrible, it shouldn't be about personality and popularity actually, to get elected. It kind of helps if people like you or if they think that they are persuaded by the leader of your party. But it was really interesting trying to hear her say it. Well, it doesn't really matter.

[Henry Zeffman]

I mean, I think I'm struck in the context of this by election that it is the second by election in a row, sort of crunch by election, to use that cliche for the Labour Party, where the official opposition is just irrelevant to the conversation. So in Gorton and Denton, it was a question of what reform and the Greens might do to Labour, and here it's a question of what reform might do to Labour. The Conservative Party, which is the main parliamentary opposition, which was in government less than two years ago, is just completely irrelevant to the conversation. And that's got to be concerning for Kemi Badenock. I think there's a by election coming up in Scotland where the Conservatives have a decent hope of gaining it because the previous MP is now a member of the Scottish Parliament. But that is slightly ancillary to the main question of replacing the government, the labor government. And I think Hemi Badenoch is going to have to try to find ways to stay relevant without this sense that actually out there in the country, the conversation is moving on from the Conservatives.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's interesting and she's had a lot of decent hits in Parliament on the Starmer government. Right. There's no question about that. But if he's not there, what is she facing off against? So it was. It's really interesting, and you're quite right, there will be a Scottish byelection where the Conservatives will try to make a massive issue of oil and gas because yes. Stephen Flynn, who was the Westminster leader of the snp, as all good newscasters will know very well, he's now going to be an MSP. He was elected in the Holyrood elections just 10 days ago, so his seat has become vacant.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And also, oil and gas is a great policy issue. Drill, baby, drill is what Cami Badenoch said to me when she was on Radio 4amonth ago. And I want issues. I want to know what kind of vote can I cast in favor of what kind of policy. That's what actually what I want to do as a voter. And if you're going to say to me, should we drill in the North Sea or not? That's a serious way for my country to talk about itself. And I look forward to discussion in Scotland about drill or not.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And indeed, what does Andy Burnham think about whether or not the Jackdaw Rose bank oil field should. Oil and gas fields should be granted.

[Paddy O'Connell]

You've really drilled licenses.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But what does West Streeting think of it? You know, these are questions that are going to be put in the coming weeks and it's going to be really interesting to see where the two candidates, such as they, are at this stage in the game. Where did they land on all of this? And it's not clear how much whoever wins is going to depart from the labor manifesto of 2024. Right. Are they going to basically start again, come in and say, oh, all the things that we've been trying to do for the last two years, Actually, I thought they were all a little rubbish.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I seem to remember it's got Keir Starmer's face on the front of it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It does have Kirsten's face on the front of it.

[Lisa Nandy]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So what do you do? And this is the anxiety, to be honest, when you speak to some chalice, perhaps older hands in the Labour Party, is that they are tumbling into a leadership contest without evidence. Some people see so far that there's been really serious thinking about what they should do differently and about whether or not they romp off into a different direction.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And if we say that this is a general election in makeup field, basically, does it mean that all the National Party leaders show up? We. We're just discussing if Zach Polanski's Green Party will field or not. But does Kemi Badenok go to make a field Henry to campaign? Does. I mean, obviously we can say Nigel Farage will definitely go, probably move there. And does Karma campaign for Andy Burnham? Does he?

[Henry Zeffman]

Well, that's. I think that's the most interesting question. Of the lot. I think he probably has to. I think it might be a bit awkward. I don't know if he'll necessarily campaign with Andy Burnham or just for Andy Burnham. But look, I mean, I think it's another astute and acute example of how weird the next few weeks are going to be for Keir Starmer.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think it's all going to be very, very odd.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Is it ice creams? Do you remember Gordon Brown and Tony Blair with the eyes, with the Mr. Whippies?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, it might be scrap arms.

[Henry Zeffman]

Ah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What, what are they?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So Will Self, the intellectual author was on the panel this morning on our program and Will Self is somebody, I think, who, who can make lots of people really laugh because he expresses ideas in a, in an incredibly idiosyncratic and compelling way. I think he's also fair to say and I, and I hope he would accept this. Somebody who winds some people up something rotten.

[Paddy O'Connell]

An iconoclast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, that's a good. That's the kind of word he might use. Right. So this morning he talked about the last time he'd been to Wigan and Mickfield of course is in that neck of the woods that he'd had a smack barn and it was 10p now he was talking about a chip roll.

[Henry Zeffman]

Right.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

By any other name or chip butty. A chip roll where? Depending where you live and what he ought to have said, according to Joe Lee, Joe Platt, who's the MP for Lee who took over Andy Burnham's seats. More trivia is available should you want it. Apparently she's already been online correcting Will Self, saying he should have said a scrap barn. And of course when it comes to a chip shop, Paddy, you know what scraps are, right?

[Paddy O'Connell]

I love them. They're the little bits of old Chippy McChip face, magic old fishy McFish face that go into the chippy in your thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Absolutely. I mean you obviously want scraps on top of your normal chips and then why not have scripts? Scraps in a roll. So as ever on Sundays in the world that we now live in, yes, we have lots of high minded political debate. There also is how now, however, an online argument about a scrap farm.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Welcome to by election territory. We've got right till June 18 of people getting things right and wrong about Makerfield.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We do.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And we spoke this morning to a man who was born there, Lem Sisse, and he said it's an amazing place because you hear in accents, you hear a little bit of Scouse, you hear a little bit of Mancunian and It's a place that Andy Burnham does understand, so he's going to get. He's strong on that and I suspect that it would be foolish of the other parties to put someone in who's going to get things like this wrong, who doesn't know where Wigan begins and ends, who doesn't know what the right name for a chip is correct or

[Laura Kuenssberg]

also says Makerfield instead of Makerfield, or indeed doesn't know that Makerfield is a series of towns, not one individual place. Things can go terribly, terribly wrong in by elections. But you're right, it's that part of the world. Which is why Andy Barnum can be a well known Everton fan and we should start counting how many times we're going to hear he's in Everton season ticket holder in the next six weeks

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

But also be the mayor of Greater Manchester because it's that in between Bit which would be my geographical description but it's neither, you know, it's its own proud part of the country. It is not Liverpool, it is not Manchester. It's the in between a bit Henry,

[Paddy O'Connell]

you'll be living there I imagine for the next six weeks.

[Henry Zeffman]

Well I was about to say if we do have any newscasters in Makerfield, guys, they're about to be accosted by almost every national, presumably even international journalists over the next few weeks. No Makerfield resident shall go unvox popped I would imagine.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, I think that's right. It's going to be and the canvases have already been out, already been out on the doors yesterday. Andy Burnham was out on the doors yesterday. Reform posted a picture suggesting that lots of people had been out on the doors yesterday. But this is why newscasters, if you are in that part of the world do let us know. We'd have a leaflet tally. We could have, you know how many knock ups have you had? We can have all sorts of fun and games with this and yet fun for political observers and people like us who like to wag on massively, massively significant to what happens next in the country because the people of Makerfield may well be choosing the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We're going out with a look ahead. Henry, what is your on your dance card?

[Henry Zeffman]

Well look, there's all sorts of moments in Parliament. The King's Speech debate continues for Keir Starmer's legislative agenda. Keir Starmer will do his first PMQ since the elections on Wednesday up against Kemi Badenok. But as I think I've kept saying during this podcast and I'm going to repeat myself one more time, it's just going to feel very weird and very surreal and his premiership is in a kind of purgatory though I do just think, because I haven't put this caveat in at any point during the podcast, let's just remind ourselves if there is a Labour leadership election, Keir Starmer has to resign because otherwise he is automatically on the ballot. And I don't think we've seen this week that this is an office he wants to give up. Far from it. So don't discount the possibility that there is a Labour leadership election where Keir Starmer is a combatant and perhaps he'll spend the next few weeks trying to show what he would put on that ticket.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And I'm not sure that he'll make a public decision either actually until the result of the Makerfield by election is known. So we are in a really, really, really weird limbo status for sure, because Josh Simons, the MP who's kind of triggered all this in a way by making way for Andy Barnum, we asked him this morning what would happen if Barnum didn't win. And he said, well, we'd been in an existential crisis.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah. Although, I mean, what, you know, I mean, if there's any. If there's one person who can represent an existential crisis, it's him, because he was part of Labor Together that was part of the project to get Keir

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Starmer elected and he worked in Jeremy Corbyn's office even before that. So that's some journey, isn't it?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Everyone in Britain's on a journey.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We're all on a journey.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We're all on a journey.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Should we be? I think we're at the end of today's journey.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We are. Henry, it's lovely to see you at home. We say goodbye from our studio. Goodbye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Goodbye.

[Henry Zeffman]

Goodbye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about every everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.

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