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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
- [00:06]
Podcast Advertiser
If you're into tech, you'll love this. TikTok is a live lab where users post instant reviews of the latest trends. Download TikTok and check it out.
- [00:21]
Tristan Redman
What's actually happening inside Iran? I'm Tristan Redman, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Iranians have been under a near total Internet blackout out for several months. Few Western journalists have been permitted to operate in the country, but in recent weeks, the BBC's chief international correspondent, Le Doucette, has been reporting on the ground in Tehran. For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:52]
Paddy O'Connell
I think it's my turn to go first because you two have been like beer moths. Or moths, really. He just kept going and going through the night.
- [01:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
Why are you calling me a behemoth?
- [01:05]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, you and Chris, you've just done sterling hours and hours.
- [01:10]
Chris Mason
Well, I'm all for the Paddy One Man Show. Take it away.
- [01:14]
Paddy O'Connell
No, I mean, you've done hours and hours of broadcasting, Chris.
- [01:17]
Chris Mason
Well, there is that, but, you know, this is the kind of time of year where Laura and I and others, you know, just try and, yeah, keep on going, really, because there's so much to talk about, isn't there? There's so much intrigue, there's so much. And particularly with this set of elections. There's just so many different storylines, aren't there?
- [01:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
There certainly are. And it's election time and that means that we stay up for a long time.
- [01:37]
Paddy O'Connell
Laura gets very excited by her flipper.
- [01:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
I had four flippers this year.
- [01:42]
Paddy O'Connell
Do you have a cheap. It's. It's. Well, Laura, you can explain your flipper.
- [01:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
They're my photo albums that are full of all my advertised fun facts about all the different council seats or constituencies. If it's a general election flipper, it's
- [01:53]
Chris Mason
like a file of facts.
- [01:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
They're old photo albums and you have to get them on a. On a. On a website that sells old things because you can't get them in the shops anymore.
- [02:01]
Chris Mason
And then you can flick between them without the. Without having paper scattered all over the desk. And then you've lost the one from Tameside or whatever.
- [02:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
Exactly.
- [02:09]
Paddy O'Connell
I love the fact that our youngest newscaster does not know what A, a Filofax is and B, a photo album.
- [02:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
Shall we get on with it?
- [02:19]
Paddy O'Connell
This is Saturday's newscast.
- [02:21]
Sophie Raworth
Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
- [02:23]
Chris Mason
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [02:26]
Podcast Advertiser
We are in the midst of a rupture.
- [02:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
Nostalgia will not bring back the old
- [02:30]
Paddy O'Connell
order 6, 7Y supposed to be me
- [02:34]
Voter
as a doctor daddy has has also a special connotation.
- [02:37]
Market Seller
Thinking about it like a panto helped.
- [02:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Do we play music now or what do we do?
- [02:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, it's Laura in the studio.
- [02:43]
Paddy O'Connell
Hello, it's Paddy in the studio and
- [02:45]
Chris Mason
it is Chris at Westminster. Glad to be back at the the weekend going after our cast fest of a couple of weeks ago and here I am on a Saturday again. It's a joy.
- [02:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Very nice to have you with us. We are recording at six minutes past two on Saturday. So just a time stamp because it may be by the time this is in your luggles, more things will have happened because a lot of things have happened, even some more. Election results have come in since the last newscast of the thousand newscasts that have been during this election cycle. Highlands and Islands result was called at 1:21 in the morning. Reform and the Greens in Scotland both won two seats and the snp, the Tories and the Scottish Lib Dems all picked up one seat. And also, Chris, in the last few hours, I mean there's just a kind of little ticker tape, isn't there, going with Labor MPS one by one.
- [03:33]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
- [03:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, miraculously using the same sort of formulation, not saying that Keir Starmer should go away right away, but saying that he must set out a timetable for his departure.
- [03:44]
Chris Mason
Yeah, I love the idea, by the way, of a declaration at one in the morning for something that wasn't an overnight count, that was like count during the day, and yet it ends up ending at kind of the time you might expect a result when you know, you'd start counting just after the polls had closed at 10. But yeah, I think the ticker is a good way of describing it, Laura. So towards the tail end of yesterday afternoon and into the evening, there was a kind of trickle of Labour mps, some of whom who had been public in the past about concerns about Keir Starmer, others who hadn't, who were saying, as you say, broadly similar arguments around their desire for the prime minister to set out some sort of timetable for his departure. Most of them were not saying words to the effect of he should sort of pack his suitcase this, this weekend, but suggesting that, yeah, he shouldn't be around for all that. For all. And then this morning, Saturday morning on the Today program, hearing from Debbie Abrahams and also from Clive Betts. Clive Betts, long standing Labour MP, been in Parliament since the 1990s. And, and in particular I thought what was striking, and I've heard this so many times from Labour mps privately. And they don't say it. They don't say it with any sense of kind of enthusiasm, enthusiasm or venom towards the Prime Minister personally. But they just recount over and over again stories of being on the doorstep. And when they ask people who have voted lab recently why they wouldn't have done this week or they weren't willing to do this week, so often they say it was Keir Starmer's name that was coming, coming back to them, that, that sense that he was a drag anchor, if you like, or hauling the party backwards rather than anything, anything positive.
- [05:24]
Paddy O'Connell
And you've been speaking to the Prime Minister.
- [05:26]
Prime Minister (Keir Starmer)
Yeah.
- [05:26]
Chris Mason
So he did a thing this morning. It's interesting. Yesterday they were suggesting that he wasn't going to be around and about today, which I didn't really believe at the time. And sure enough, here he. Here he was. And you can see from his perspective why they wanted to have him out and about, because otherwise there' something of a vacuum. He was in Wimbledon. So we were the home of AFC Wimbledon, Quite a fine little sports ground, AFC Wimbledon. And not an accident that he was there. Wimbledon is in Merton, the borough of Merton in southwest London, which was a rare bright spot for Labor. They actually went forward, they gained a seat in Merton. So he was meeting labor activists, working the tables, usual format that he does. He likes going to smaller football clubs as well. That's one of his things. Has a cup of tea at each table, does the selfies, all that kind of. Of stuff, and then did what's known as a pool interview where one broadcaster on behalf of all of the broadcasters asks four or five questions. It's not a long interview and yeah, I think. Can we play a little bit of what he was saying?
- [06:23]
Prime Minister (Keir Starmer)
Look, it's very important that we don't. I'm not going to walk away from this. That would plunge the country into chaos. But that doesn't mean we don't need to respond. It doesn't mean we don't need to rebuild. It doesn't mean that we don't need to set out the path ahead. That's what I'm going to do in coming days. The things that we will do to take the country forward. Of course we face difficult circumstances. We've got a war on two fronts. We've had a series of economic crises. But my job is to combine rising to those challenges with the hope and opportunity that gives people that real sense that things can get better.
- [07:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
The thing is, the problem, they've got, well, they've got lots of problems. But I think lots of newscasters will just think, Chris, we've just heard that all before.
- [07:13]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
- [07:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
You know, Kir Summer says we have to go further and faster, we have to accelerate the change, we have to give people more hope. Those are all undefinable things.
- [07:24]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
- [07:25]
Laura Kuenssberg
They're all political speak. Put them all together in any order and it's a sort of word salad that sort of says, well, yeah, I know things haven't been great and I promise I'm going to try harder.
- [07:36]
Chris Mason
And not only that, Laura, it's certainly from what I'm hearing from Labour mp, it's just a frustration that even the language is the same.
- [07:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's the same. It's exactly the same.
- [07:43]
Chris Mason
So not only is that the critique of what does it actually add up to and therefore what difference could it conceivably make, but it is exactly the same. So his language about. We didn't hear it there, but earlier on he talked about in his opening answer because this is the first time he'd been in front of the camera since the full scale of the results were out there. Yes, he did do an equivalent clip early yesterday morning, but we were still early on, weren't we? It was before Scotland, it was before Wales, etc, Etc, even if the. The kind of trend was was there to. To be seen. It was exactly the same form of words as he'd used 24 hours previously. So there wasn't even any kind of sense of. Of using different language given the volume of what had come in the 24 hours since. He's now talking up a speech he's going to give on Monday. It's been pretty widely trailed quite a bit of that. This idea. In fact, he said it in that interview he did with Nick Robinson on the Today program, this wanting a closer relationship with the European Union. There's a limit to how far that can go within the red lines that they've set in their manifesto. And they're sort of building that up really to being quite a thing. And from their perspective, you therefore wonder how then that goes down with Labour MPs and what follows afterwards.
- [08:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, then also why number 10 would think at this stage in the game, arguing for closer alignment with the eu, which newscasters might remember, he also did right at the beginning this year in our very long interview with him in the first week of January, why is that remotely the answer to a almost uniform rejection of the Labour Party in former Brexit voting areas? Why is that the answer? And I think we're in a situation now where the pressure is very, very, very much on Keir Summer as an individual to show that he can improve his performance and to show that he can do better. And one senior minister said to me in the last couple of days, this over to you, care. Yeah, is what they said. That's the sense that I'm picking up, is not people in their hordes trying to push him for the exit, but it's like, right, you have a chance here, but we need to see and hear that you can do things differently. That's what union leaders are saying. They've demanded a meeting with him this week. They put out a very strongly worded statement. Some of them want to definitely see him go, some of them want to give him one, one more chance. And I think that's kind of where. Where we're at and the pressure is intensely on him. And we thought this might be where we were at last weekend. And I'm still sort of got those two questions in my head that where is the evidence that Keir Starmer actually can do things differently and improve his performance? Now, one cabinet minister said, look, actually, he's the most adaptable person and he's an extraordinary survivor. You know, he's incredibly resilient. He knows he's really in the doo doo.
- [10:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Worked for Jeremy Corbyn, then sacked him.
- [10:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
Right. Work for Jeremy Corbyn, then sacked him, worked with Morgan McSweeney, then sacked him, work with Sue Gray, then sacked her. All of those things. But whether the Prime Minister is capable of really upping his own game, Right, where's the evidence of that? I don't know. He's done lots of things like sacking people, but actually can. Where's the evidence that he can really change his government performance?
- [11:06]
Chris Mason
As a couple of MPs have said to me this morning and in the last 24 hours last night as well, from their perspective, their fear is that these interventions make things worse, not better. Because they see there was a lot of grumbling about the article in his name in the Guardian this morning. And let's see how what he was saying to me in that pool exchange goes, goes down. Because certainly the perspective from some, after what he said yesterday morning was that it was doubling down in the minds of some Labour mps, their fears about a lack of capacity to check, to change in the way that they would like, rather than it being this new incarnation.
- [11:48]
Paddy O'Connell
You can become a Prime Minister in the United Kingdom without a general election. And one man who did that was Gordon Brown. And it's quite Common for this to happen. John Major did it as well. And Gordon Brown went to see Keir Starmer today through the front door of number 10.
- [12:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
I nearly fell off my chair. So if you want as a government to look like you are surging forward, promising change, you're going to be different. You're addressing the future. You're cracking on bringing back someone who was in power 16 years ago and who lost an election. I'm not. I don't really see what the question is that Gordon Brown is the answer to. Now, if you were saying, ah, there is a massive global financial cris. Crisis and we are on the hunt specifically for someone to come and help us deal with that, then Gordon Brown may well be someone who is in your Rolodex. He's obviously. Or younger. Younger newscasters might not know what that is either. Somewhere where people used to write down lots of phone numbers and contacts. Contacts. You know, Gordon Brown is a highly respected figure in the Labor Party. Right. No question about that. I'm not doing down Gordon Brown in any way. But the optics of a Prime Minister is in deep trouble. Bringing back a Prime minister who never won a general election, actually then lost another general and kind of boasting about it. And this is basically the first image that the country sees the day after a complete shellacking is Keir Summer on the steps of Downing street with Gordon Brown. Like, where's that gonna go?
- [13:19]
Chris Mason
It's extraordinary, isn't it? Because, yeah, as you. You're right to detach these things, aren't you, Laura, for newscasters in that, of course, you can make an argument that two people like Harriet Harmon, who's also been offered an envoy role, and Grandma,
- [13:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
which she was offered last year, too.
- [13:33]
Chris Mason
Indeed so. Indeed so. Might have something to offer within those areas of expertise.
- [13:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
Correct.
- [13:38]
Chris Mason
But to. But to then decide that you're going to make that the. The moment on camera. Because the Prime Minister doesn't appear on the steps of Downing street shaking someone's hands by accident. That is a. A conscious communications choice. And doing that twice within an hour on Saturday morning with Gordon Brown and Harriet Harmon. And then there's an associated video that Downing street has posted of them wandering around in the Danny Street Garden with Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, in the mix.
- [14:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
It looks like she's marrying them.
- [14:04]
Chris Mason
It does, doesn't it? One of the stills. They do look like a couple, don't they? Gordon Brown and gear.
- [14:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
But isn't that the danger? Right, because people will. I mean, look, I would have thought that within minutes, people Online. And certainly opposition politicians have got an absolute gift to say, look. Well, here's Keir Starmer, who many people would say, whether in sorrow or anger, is a failing Prime Minister, standing on Downing street steps with someone who is a failed Labour Prime Minister, although very well respected for other reasons in his handling of the global financial crisis. Can I just read you, though, my favorite quote of the day? Because as we know, I spend lots of time on Fridays and Saturdays getting quotes from people. This is about the appearance of Gordon Brown. Rumor is they've brought a Ouija board through the Green Bay's door to consult Clem and Harold, referring to Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson.
- [14:49]
Paddy O'Connell
Because here's another. I'll give you a sliding doors moment where I've been in charge and I've picked someone else.
- [14:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
I'd vote for you.
- [14:55]
Paddy O'Connell
Right. No, not as Prime Minister. I've been in charge of today's choreography for the Prime Minister.
- [15:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
Okay.
- [15:00]
Paddy O'Connell
I put another guest on the steps of number 10. Who? Andy Burnham.
- [15:05]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, there you are. So Andy Burnham has not made himself available for interviews all weekend.
- [15:10]
Paddy O'Connell
But I put it out there because it's peacemaking. It's leadership. Lead, follow or get out of the way. It's saying, I know that. I know I've got to meet this man sometimes. So I'm going to meet him the day after when there's lots of calls. And that would answer the timetable question. It would show leadership and why aren't I running? Number 10 is my question.
- [15:29]
Chris Mason
So he was.
- [15:29]
Laura Kuenssberg
I wish you. I would vote for you.
- [15:31]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you.
- [15:31]
Laura Kuenssberg
What would your party be called?
- [15:33]
Paddy O'Connell
The Wombles.
- [15:35]
Laura Kuenssberg
You've got my vote.
- [15:36]
Chris Mason
Well, then you could. Then you could go to Wimbledon like the Prime Minister did. And there we are. The whole thing is that. The whole thing is complete. I've completely forgotten what I was going to say now. What was I gonna say? I can't remember. I was too busy with the wumbles
- [15:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
of the wobbles of Wimbledon. But here, Paddy, make a good point by bringing Andy Burnham in, because this.
- [15:53]
Chris Mason
Oh, that's what I was going to mention. Yeah.
- [15:55]
Sophie Raworth
Sorry.
- [15:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
The thing that is keeping Keir Summer there for now.
- [15:58]
Chris Mason
Yes.
- [15:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
Is that just as there is not necessarily evidence from the track record that Keir Summer is capable of enormous changing himself, there is still no evidence that any other candidate or contender for the job is ready to go. Andy Barnum is not an mp. There are also plenty of people who say that he should not take for granted the idea that people would greet him as a northern messiah and oh, by the way, look what happened to the votes for the Labour Party in the northwest of England yesterday. They got absolutely pasted. So just as the question is for Keir Starmer, is Andy Barnum the answer? Don't know. Now, my sense is, though, that a lot of the people involved in putting forwards this sort of timetable notion are trying, as it was described to me yesterday by a senior figure, to basically give time for Burnham to get a seat back in Parliament. But imagine how much money reform would throw at trying to be.
- [16:51]
Chris Mason
Of course.
- [16:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
So that's that. So there's that. So they're not ready. Angela Rayner, I understand, is going to make some form of statement possibly in the next couple of hours when I say we're recording at 20 past 2. She's not going to call for him to go this weekend unless something really unexpected happens. She's not going to call for a timetable, she's not going to call for a contest. What I expect is that she'll say something about the sort of direction of the party. But this weekend is not then turning into a maximum moment of jeopardy for the Prime Minister because none of the contenders who want the job have said out the way. I'm on.
- [17:27]
Chris Mason
I think that's, I think that's right. So Andy Burnham was doing a charity football match last night in which it was let let be known that he'd scored two goals.
- [17:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah. And the video is out there now. So you wrote Gordon Brown with Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham scoring goals.
- [17:41]
Chris Mason
Some suggestions. I walked into the newscast studio that one of them might have been offside, but I haven't yet seen the video.
- [17:47]
Paddy O'Connell
Hang on. Are we now going to explain the offside rule? Because this is, it's got, it's got, it's got everything. It's got Filofax, Rolodex photo albums and the offside rule on one Saturday. I mean, that needs its own podcast.
- [18:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's something to do with when someone's running forwards, I think.
- [18:02]
Paddy O'Connell
Okay, yes, good. So look, look, let's go to voters. One of the totemic results that happened was that after 25 years, conservatives lost control of Essex County Council.
- [18:18]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [18:19]
Paddy O'Connell
So Essex has been the home of a sort of trope, of a sort of self made voter who prefers the Conservatives. Kemi Badenok's got a seat there. James Clevis got a seat there. In our time, some very famous, colorful Conservatives had seats there because of the amazing voters of Essex, which is where I began my radio career. I, I dare to say I Know about Essex and see, I wouldn't have
- [18:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
you down as the cliched Essex man. So do you ever have a Ford Escort?
- [18:47]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, so I went in search of Essex man because I had a Citron 2cv. But so, so, so did I when
- [18:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
I was a reporter at Radio Newcastle.
- [18:56]
Paddy O'Connell
To the list of niche things on this podcast, we've added a 75 year old car.
- [19:00]
Chris Mason
I love the fact that both of you had a 2 cent.
- [19:02]
Paddy O'Connell
I love the fact that the new man is running the BBC, whose name no one can remember, is obsessed with getting younger list. And this podcast is going to be axed the moment he walks in the door.
- [19:13]
Chris Mason
Wombles of Wimbles Roller Decks.
- [19:16]
Paddy O'Connell
So look back we go to the voter. So it's a totemic result. I went to a car boot sale, Laura, and here is some of what people told me.
- [19:29]
Market Seller
Pound each, darling. Three pound each. These are two pound three for five. They're l' Oreal Foundations you've got.
- [19:34]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I ask what you're selling today and how it's gone?
- [19:37]
Voter
It's gone quite well today, apart from mixing with delightful people, opportunity to get a bit of extra money towards bills.
- [19:44]
Paddy O'Connell
So it's interesting at the same time as being profitable.
- [19:47]
Voter
Yes, of course. And healthy as well.
- [19:49]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, well, you look very healthy. Do you think the Prime Minister needs to change?
- [19:54]
Voter
We have had many discussions about this already today. It seems to me that if we change Prime Minister or change a party, it's not going to achieve anything because the party coming in would say, well, we have a great manifesto but when they get into office they then say, well, because of the state of the country, we can't implement it, so it's going to take a lot longer.
- [20:18]
All 50p on the rail. 50 pence.
- [20:20]
Paddy O'Connell
What are you selling?
- [20:21]
Voter
All second hand stuff today.
- [20:22]
Paddy O'Connell
How's trade?
- [20:23]
Voter
A little bit quiet. Say last week was very, very, very good. Last week it was bank holiday last week. Very, very good.
- [20:28]
Paddy O'Connell
What did you think of the politics of the kicking Keir Starmer got?
- [20:32]
Voter
It's very, very good. Bring on reform. That's what I say. Bring on reform.
- [20:35]
Paddy O'Connell
Why do you like them?
- [20:36]
Voter
Because to clear the cut, it needs. The new country needs a boost, that's why. And you believe leadership as well? He's very, very good. Nigel Farage. Very, very good.
- [20:43]
Paddy O'Connell
Do you remember the phrase Essex man?
- [20:45]
Voter
No, I don't remember.
- [20:46]
Paddy O'Connell
Voters who loved Margaret Thatcher.
- [20:49]
Voter
That's who I say. That is who I say this morning. Bring back Margaret Thatcher.
- [20:53]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you for stopping. I wish, wish you lots of sales
- [20:56]
Voter
have A nice weekend.
- [20:57]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [20:58]
Market Seller
You got lip liner, you got powders.
- [21:01]
Voter
I'm not great fan of Nigel Farage. I don't think it's good for the country. And, and it's not even the. The immigration thing. That's all he talks about. That's all he talks about, immigration. I think it's boring. That's all he talks about. It's. It's all the other little things. What changes he going to make for the country?
- [21:18]
What.
- [21:18]
Market Seller
What.
- [21:18]
Voter
What big changes he going to make for the country? I don't think he's really got a policy immediate.
- [21:23]
Market Seller
When you pick the ones you want, you can get nice sealed ones.
- [21:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I ask you what you think just happened at the election? What it means?
- [21:28]
Voter
It means Labour have finished. Can't wait for him to go. Labor have just crippled the working man, you know, completely from small businesses. You know, everything they do all this
- [21:40]
Chris Mason
tax, tax, tax, tax.
- [21:41]
Voter
Everything they want to do is about tax on pensions, on small businesses. You know, they obviously tried to stop these elections and it's showing why, you know, because the people wanted their say and wanted their vote, basically.
- [21:55]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you very much. There's a lot there and it seems really sort of voter splaining of me to present it to you. But I suppose I would take away from it the fact that there's no one talking for Keir Starmer there. There's a one man talking about this. Appetite for change. Can't keep changing Prime Minister. That's an interesting theme.
- [22:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah, but.
- [22:13]
Paddy O'Connell
But nowhere did I find anyone who said, I'm going to speak up for Keir Starmer. He was given a hospital pass by becoming Prime Minister and he's done an amazing job.
- [22:21]
Laura Kuenssberg
And it is rare to find. I mean, it is. It just genuinely is rare to find. We lost count of the number of Labour politicians who said that, both on the airwaves and also saying privately in the last few days that it just comes up all the time and it may be fair, it may not be fair. And that's a question that everybody will be able to answer in their own minds. But Keir Starmer personally is a problem for the Labor Party.
- [22:45]
Paddy O'Connell
So people have used these local elections, which are about homelessness, my bins, my health service, my education of our. My children. They've used this as a national poll. It's not really fair on councillors who are doing their job, is it?
- [22:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, no, I mean, these elections are about lots of different things and they're about people who make decisions that influence our lives. That have got almost nothing to do with number 10, you know, until, you know, in terms of your bins and local services. But, you know, like it or not, that's what this became in large part, not least. And it will have been helped in this by the fact that Reform, who ran a campaign very hard, Nigel Farage, went to so many different places around the country. I mean, he basically went back on the road to do that sort of celebrity tour that he does every now and again. That's what he's been doing for the last few weeks. And the Reform slogan was vote Reform, Get Starmer out. You know, and there was a reason for that. And that was both a reflection of public sentiment, but also something that tried to push on public sentiment. And the Reform success in these elections has just been absolutely extraordinary. Now, their overall vote share compared to last year actually went down a bit. They're the success in terms of the number of seats and the gains that they were making. They made huge progress from nowhere in Wales, they made huge progress from nowhere in Scotland. And it's been an incredible political achievement from them. There's absolutely no doubt about that. So this is partly about Sarma and Labour, but it is also about the success of the other parties, Reform and the Greens really making the most of this political moment.
- [24:24]
Chris Mason
Completely. It's worth reflecting, isn't it, from the Prime Minister's perspective, because it's not that long ago that we were chasing around the country after him and his rivals in the general election campaign. There are vanishingly few Labour leaders who have won a majority at a general election and he is one of them, you know, in clearing a hurdle. So few of his predecessors, a Labour leader, have managed over the sweep of a century and a bit, and yet the speed, the speed with which things have unravelled and the degree to which it is so pointed in his direction. Personally, I fall over the number of MPs, Labour MPs and others, you know, others who are, you know, not of his political affiliation, who are sometimes bemused about the extent to which it feels so visceral and so. And so personal with a character like Keir Starmer, who you might conclude wouldn't necessarily provoke such a strength of feeling. But the underlying issue around so many of these conversations is the reality of that being a broad based sentiment for so many at the moment.
- [25:31]
Paddy O'Connell
When do we get, we're going to the end of I've got some newscasters comments. When do we get a sign that a significant interventions happened? Is it a speech? Is it a tweet or an ex posting from him or from his, from his rivals.
- [25:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
From his rivals. So. Well, I think we will, and I'm, I'm expecting that we'll hear from Angela Rayner this afternoon at some point, although I don't think she's going to push for our contest. I think Andy Burnham is due to speak at some event later this week. But the Prime Minister also has two big moments to try and stamp his authority this week, too. There's this big speech tomorrow and then on Wednesday, of course, is the King's Speech, when the government has got a chance to put forward all the ideas and draft laws, things that they would like to achieve in Parliament. And that's a huge opportunity to give labor mps things to be excited about, to give labor mps something to rally around because goodness knows that they need it. And it's one of these kind of enormous, big fancy state occasions and there'll be golden carriages and, you know, gleaming horses and all of that. It's also a big risk, though, because if the King's Speech comes out and labor mps look at it and they think, oh, most of those things work. Well, that's a bit wishy washy. Not really much in that, then that make them, might make them feel even more demoralized. But it's hard to, it's, it's, at this point, it's hard to know where it's going to go. But the unions have also demanded a meeting with Keir Starmer this week. And, you know, the unions aren't all powerful in the way that they were in the 70s, but they still pay the Labour Party's bills.
- [27:06]
Paddy O'Connell
Right, We've got to let Chris Mason go.
- [27:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [27:09]
Paddy O'Connell
Do you have another point to make, Chris, before we lose? You should. We don't.
- [27:13]
Chris Mason
No. I think I've petered out. No, no, I, I, I've enjoyed being part of the the Weekend Gang again and, you know, with the news at the volume that it is at the moment, who knows, this might become more frequent. Let's see.
- [27:26]
Paddy O'Connell
I hope so. I very hope we have as much of you as possible. Thank you very much. We let you go on.
- [27:31]
Laura Kuenssberg
Thanks, Chris.
- [27:32]
Tristan Redman
Cheers.
- [27:32]
Chris Mason
See ya.
- [27:33]
Paddy O'Connell
He's off making television now for the, for the 10 o' clock news. Oh, we love making television, but not in this shirt. You look like you're in your pajamas and I look like I'm in my dressing gown.
- [27:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
Are you at velour?
- [27:45]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. Now, Stephen,
- [27:50]
Tristan Redman
what's actually happening inside Iran? I'm Tristan Redmond, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC Iranians have been under a near total Internet blackout for several months. Few Western journalists have been permitted to operate in the country. But in recent weeks, the BBC's chief international correspondent, Lis Doucet, has been reporting on the ground in Tehran. For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:20]
Paddy O'Connell
Veloura before I love the pod, says Stephen I have a question about the King's Speech. If after the King's Speech there's a challenge to Sir K as PM and his ousted would the new PM be obligated to follow the plans laid out in the King's Speech, or could they change it?
- [28:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's a great question. I do not know technically if there is an answer to that, but I think in reality, even if there is a formal answer, of course they can change it because governments can always change what they're doing anyway. So the King's speeches are sort of, this is what we are planning. But how often do governments actually chop and change or ditch or transform the things that they've said they're going to do anyway? Answer all the time. So it's not a tablet of stone, even though it is read out with great fanfare.
- [29:05]
Paddy O'Connell
So that's your answer? Yes, they can change it. Lib Dem activist Mark writes I'm a regular listener since Brexit cast I am appalled that in your election cast episode yesterday evening there was absolutely no mention of the successes of the Liberal Democrats beyond our name being mentioned in an introductory sentence. All the other major parties, including the Nationalist parties in the devolved assemblies, were analyzed in detail. The Lib Dems have made steady progress over a record number of election cycles in increasing our number of elected councillors, and this week took control of some key councils. I trust you will address this in future episodes. Many thanks in advance.
- [29:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, we were very pleased to. And I'm wondering if there's a very prominent Lib Dem activist called Mark surname that I shall keep mysteriously. I wonder if it's him and if it is. Hello to you. But yeah, very happy to talk about the Liberal Democrats.
- [29:53]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, eight years of gains, I think, elections.
- [29:56]
Sophie Raworth
Absolutely.
- [29:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
And they're a really big force in local government and they do did take some steps forward and they had a decent night. And we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, didn't we, that they have, you know, the Lib Dems, they're playing a different game.
- [30:10]
Chris Mason
Right.
- [30:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
They're not trying to win seats absolutely everywhere. They're much more focused on kind of hyper local building blocks gradually. So looking at an area, trying to grow their number of councils, trying to then get an MP there. And they did have successes. They won Stockport, they won Portsmouth. Also, I suppose the media always, by its very nature, the news is about things that are unusual, are unusual and new. So of course, reform success is unusual and very significant. The Greens recent surge is new and significant. The Lib Dems, yes, did have advances and absolutely, we should talk about them and, and cover them. But that, you know, new news, as you say it is the things when, when things change or they suddenly happen unexpectedly, that those do tend to be the things that dominate the headlines. But, yeah, the Liberal Democrats do well in local government. They had a decent time this week and they are, you know, on the. On the march.
- [31:07]
Paddy O'Connell
Let's return to this subject now. Look, we've got to apparently play some amazing audio between Victoria Atkins, Robert Jenrick with Sophie Raworth. Do you know anything about this?
- [31:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
I do.
- [31:15]
Paddy O'Connell
Can you tee it up?
- [31:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
I can. So during the long hours of election broadcasting, Victoria Atkins, who is a member of the Shadow Cabinet who once upon a time backed Robert Genrick for the Conservative leadership, was sitting aside alongside said Robert Jenrick, and she revealed to the nation, which was an interesting decision to do so, that the two of them had not spoken since Generic defected to Reform. And she talked about how incredibly upset she had been by this decision and tried to provoke him into confronting what many Conservatives believe was his bad behaviour. This is the first time that we have you reunited. This is the first time you've spoken sitting here.
- [32:01]
Sophie Raworth
Rob has not spoken to me since he left the Conservative Party in the way that he did. And I considered us to be very good friends. And so it has been a great personal loss for me as well as a professional one. And the reason I raise this is because I think Rob is describing, you know, he's the economic spokesman for reform and I think to how one conducts oneself is important and I think that this is a message that will continue until the general election, that if people are asking the voters for trust, then that has to be genuine. And we as Conservatives are trying to trust. Yeah, we're trying to rebuild that trust. We are acknowledging that mistakes were made.
- [32:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
What would you say to that?
- [32:48]
M
The way you have trust in politics is to do what you say you're going to do. And the Conservative Party is not trusted because it didn't do what it said it was going to do. It was elected in 2019 on a manifesto I'm talking about.
- [33:02]
Sophie Raworth
This is the Point is, can we
- [33:04]
M
just start the question at the end of the day? In politics, the question is about honesty and trustworthiness.
- [33:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
You really could cut the atmosphere with a knife. What was then scurrilously suggested to me afterwards is that actually Victoria Atkins suggestion that they had been very good friends would not necessarily have been a universal view in the Conservative Party. So as an effective politician, sometimes people try to create a bit of drama to make a political point. But if you were listening to that rather than watching it through the whole exchange, Robert Jenner was just trying to look away and not turn around to confront her.
- [33:45]
Sophie Raworth
It was.
- [33:46]
Laura Kuenssberg
It was amazing tv.
- [33:48]
Paddy O'Connell
We're good for. Well, it's another of these amazing moments of this news cycle that's scampering by so quickly. So we say we're at the end.
- [33:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
We are at the end. But what. Did you actually buy anything at the carpet sale?
- [33:59]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes, I was going to buy you a bunch of old tat and get you to value it.
- [34:02]
Voter
It.
- [34:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
Ah.
- [34:03]
Paddy O'Connell
But I ran out of tenners. Well, I only had one tenor and I spent it on three racks of bedding plants.
- [34:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh.
- [34:10]
Paddy O'Connell
So I couldn't really get you to value my busy Lizzies, but I could
- [34:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
say they were a tenor. Are they nice busy lizards.
- [34:16]
Paddy O'Connell
Amazing.
- [34:17]
Laura Kuenssberg
Are you gonna plant them later?
- [34:18]
Paddy O'Connell
I am. I can't give it to you because you would never plant them.
- [34:21]
Laura Kuenssberg
I tend to kill plants by accident. I love gardening. But I. But I. But they often die.
- [34:26]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, look, well done. You've done 48 hours of continuous broadcasting without sleep, which no one would know. And Chris Mason's the same. We're very lucky to of him.
- [34:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
I did go to sleep last night, which was nice. But not on Thursday night anyway. But yes. What are you doing tomorrow?
- [34:39]
Paddy O'Connell
So we've got the editor's panel. We're doing three newspaper editors.
- [34:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, that's very good.
- [34:43]
Paddy O'Connell
Lord, a blanket on. To read the runes of all the predictions in the Sunday Scoopers, we've also spotted a lot of use by labor people of the phrase sugar coating.
- [34:53]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [34:54]
Paddy O'Connell
It's been used multiple times by multiple people.
- [34:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
And so has doom scrolling. We had them last week. We were talking about doom scrolling through leaders and somebody. I think that that was. Was something somebody told to me that I put in a piece. And then this week I keep hearing people talk about doom scrolling. We had to doom scroll through leaders.
- [35:10]
Paddy O'Connell
And who have you got on your sofa?
- [35:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, Bridget Phillipson has got the lucky enviable task, the education secretary of coming on to talk about labor's disaster and how they're going to rebuild, James, cleverly for the Conservatives. And then things are, shall I say, on this busy news weekend end fluid.
- [35:31]
Chris Mason
Yes.
- [35:32]
Paddy O'Connell
You don't know what you're doing.
- [35:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's been said, though.
- [35:36]
Paddy O'Connell
Look, thank you very much for listening and well done to our colleagues making all this happen and the rivals, the people doing, bringing all the results all over the uk. Yes, thank you very much for listening and goodbye.
- [35:46]
Voter
Goodbye.
- [35:47]
Sophie Raworth
Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
- [35:49]
Podcast Advertiser
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared, it's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033012 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.
- [36:36]
Tristan Redman
What's actually happening inside Iran? I'm Tristan Redman, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Iranians have been under a near total Internet blackout for several months. Months, few Western journalists have been permitted to operate in the country, but in recent weeks the BBC's chief international correspondent, Lee Stucet, has been reporting on the ground in Tehran. For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.