Epstein Files: The Gordon Brown Intervention

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast – "Epstein Files: The Gordon Brown Intervention"
Date: February 7, 2026
Featuring: Laura Kuenssberg, Paddy O’Connell, Gordon Brown (excerpt), Chris Mason

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Overview

This episode of BBC’s Newscast focuses on the political fallout in Britain from the recent release of over 3 million U.S. Justice Department documents relating to Jeffrey Epstein – in particular, the alleged conduct of Peter Mandelson, a senior Labour figure, during his time in government. The episode unpacks not just the bombshell revelations, but the profound implications for the UK government, Labour Party leadership under Keir Starmer, and broader questions of authority, trust, and reform in British politics. Central to the discussion is Gordon Brown’s public intervention and the ramifications for Starmer’s future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files and Political Shockwaves

[03:54–06:07]

• The release of Epstein-related documents has created ongoing "shockwaves" in UK politics, particularly for Labour and Starmer government stability.
• Laura Kuenssberg underscores the unprecedented nature of these revelations:
  • “This is absolutely off the reservation in terms of the things that I've covered in 20 years in UK politics.” [04:48]
  • The most explosive claim is that a UK cabinet member (Peter Mandelson) passed sensitive information to an outside ally during an emergency.

2. Reactions within Labour: Betrayal and ‘I Told You So’

[06:07–08:38]

• Mandelson has not given a detailed statement, but denies criminal conduct or financial motivation.
• Laura notes a split within Labour:
  • Some colleagues feel “betrayed,” shocked at Mandelson’s actions.
  • Kuenssberg quotes a minister: “We thought he shared our values, and it turns out we were completely wrong.” [06:34]
  • Some in Labour take “a little bit of satisfaction” in saying “I told you so” about Mandelson, who has always been divisive.

3. Keir Starmer’s Position and Gordon Brown’s Intervention

[08:38–11:45]

• Gordon Brown, as ex-PM and the one who reappointed Mandelson in 2009-10, gives qualified support to Starmer:
  • “He is a man of integrity. … Perhaps he's been too slow to do the right things, but he must now do the right things now. And let's judge what he does on what happens in the next few months…” [08:53]
• Laura interprets Brown’s words as a warning – standing by Starmer for now, but conditional on decisive action to “clean up the system.”
• There is a shift in Labour’s mood: where some previously believed Starmer could weather the crisis, consensus is now “he's not going to be the leader at the time of the next general election.” [11:25]

4. Loss of Authority & Parliamentary Drama

[11:45–13:00]

• Keir Starmer’s authority has been significantly damaged, especially after his admission in Parliament that he knew of Mandelson’s continued association with Epstein before giving him the job.
• Laura: “He completely lost control of Parliament on Wednesday and it's really hurt his authority and it's very hard to see that coming back.” [27:58]

5. The Gordon Brown Assessment: Systemic Reform Needed

[16:03–16:55]

• Brown calls for “systemic” changes to how appointments are vetted – arguing for U.S.-style public hearings for senior UK government posts:
  • “There is a systemic failure to do proper vetting … There should have been public hearings … so that people could ask questions of Mandelson and see whether he was indeed the liar that he has now been seen to be.” [16:13]
• Laura points out this would mark a drastic shift from current UK practice.

6. WhatsApp, Transparency, and Toxic Revelations

[18:05–19:29]

• Anticipation of further damaging revelations from future “British Mandelson papers,” including WhatsApp messages.
• Kuenssberg notes: “There will be all sorts of things that might prove to be very embarrassing for everyone involved. … That whole episode may yet become even more embarrassing for the government.” [19:00]
• The possibility looms that the scope and nature of these leaks could spark even greater instability.

7. Systemic Political Instability & the “Manchester United” Analogy

[21:04–27:24]

• Discussion pivots to whether “Prime Minister” is even a tenable role in 2026, after a decade-plus of instability (referencing Andrew Marr’s doubts).
• Laura resists fatalism, arguing Labour could have avoided disaster with better preparation and fewer missteps.
• Ministers warn rapid leadership changes (like frequent managerial changes at Manchester United – 13 to UK’s 7 PMs since 2010) disrupt governance and deepen public distrust.

8. Political Churn and the Search for Alternatives

[27:41–31:16]

• Both comment that a “staggered sense of authority ebbing away from this Prime Minister” is the story of the week.
• Kuenssberg says Starmer remains leader “from a position of weakness rather than … strength.”
• The relentless “doom drip” politics of the past decade is pushing voters to seek alternatives, with growing interest in Reform and the Greens.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Laura Kuenssberg (on the scale of the scandal):
  “This is absolutely off the reservation in terms of the things that I've covered in 20 years in UK politics.” [04:48]

• Gordon Brown (on Starmer and integrity):
  “I can look in his eyes and I can see that he is a man of integrity. He wants to do the right things. Perhaps he's been too slow to do the right things, but he must now do the right things now. And let's judge what he does …” [08:53]

• Laura Kuenssberg (on Labour’s leadership):
  “…the consensus in the Labour Party is that he's not going to be the leader at the time of the next general election.” [11:25]

• Gordon Brown (on systemic failure):
  “There is a systemic failure to do proper vetting … There should have been public hearings as the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee recommended.” [16:13]

• Laura Kuenssberg (on Starmer’s authority):
  “He completely lost control of Parliament on Wednesday and it's really hurt his authority and it's very hard to see that coming back.” [27:58]

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Key Timestamps

• [03:54–06:07]: Introduction of the Epstein file revelations and unprecedented political impact.
• [08:53]: Gordon Brown’s statement on Starmer (audio clip).
• [11:25]: Kuenssberg’s analysis of consensus in Labour about Starmer’s future.
• [16:13]: Brown calls for public vetting hearings for senior government roles.
• [19:00]: Anticipation of further leaks, including WhatsApp messages and the threat these pose.
• [21:42]: Debate about the viability of the role of PM (“is it still possible to be PM in Britain?”).
• [23:05]: “Manchester United analogy” – churn in football management vs. political leadership.
• [27:58]: Summing up the week’s collapse of authority for Starmer.

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Episode Tone & Style

• The conversation is candid, sometimes irreverent, but primarily serious and urgent.
• Both Kuenssberg and O’Connell speak with seasoned insight, frequently referencing first-hand conversations with ministers, officials, and party insiders.
• There are allusions to amusing mishaps in broadcasting, but the overwhelming tone is one of unease and concern for the future of British political leadership.

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Conclusion & Looking Ahead

This episode frames the “Epstein Files” not just as a shocking scandal, but as a catalyst exposing deeper failings in political culture, vetting, and trust within Britain’s institutions. The fragility of Keir Starmer’s leadership and Labour’s promise of stability are laid bare, with Gordon Brown’s intervention serving both as a lifeline and a ticking clock. As Westminster braces for further revelations and the electorate hungers for alternatives, the future for established parties and leaders hangs in the balance.

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Next up:
Pat McFadden (key Mandelson-era official) appears on Sunday’s BBC One/iPlayer broadcast, promising more insider perspective on Labour’s crisis.
Laura and Paddy encourage watching their new documentary on Reform, reflecting rising interest in alternative parties in the UK.

Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

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[Paddy O'Connell]

I was asked to interview Barry Gardiner on Newsnight. Labour MP and asked him if Keir Starmer should go. And the following thing happened. This was our manifesto. Right? One man, one word, change. That's what we promised. That was the whole of what we as the Labour Party promised this country change. This looks more like the same. Should he step down? I think that he needs to think very hard about what is in the country's best interest. So.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And what is in his party's best interest? It's a veiled. Yes. You're saying you don't want to say it, but you're saying it with your eyes, Arlene, you.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, dramatic pauses can have a lot of meaning, can't they?

[Paddy O'Connell]

I know, but I think people are speechless, aren't they? That's the other thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think people are speechless. Yeah. About the horror of what's been happening, as has been revealed in the emails from Jeffrey Epstein. But also the really doom laden scenario for the government. Now, there's no question about that, but I just wonder how long do you think Barry Gardiner would have sat there if you hadn't said you're saying it with your eyes?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. I don't think he would have spoken.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, he'd still be sitting there now in the studio many some floors down from us on a Saturday newscast.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I don't think he would have spoken. I really don't.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It reminded me of another quite awkward moment, which was again one of those moments of sort of Liz Truss Birmingham Tory conference, when she was in enormous trouble and the world was in meltdown. And I asked her how many people do you think voted for all of this? Because remember, she'd been elected by Tory members, not by the country made that point. How many people voted for your plan? What do you mean by that? Well, you've set out a significant change. That was a moment that was almost as awkward when I asked Ireland's chief economist what he thought about the euro and then miraculously, mysteriously, the person who answered was actually the French ambassador in Dublin because there'd been traffic and they were sitting in the wrong seats on notice how broadcast. That was a little bit of a shock.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's very much like the taxi driver who was interviewed as a tech expert.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, yes. In this building somewhere.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Oh, no, let's not talk about BBC scandals. Let's get on with Saturday's newscast.

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[Paddy O'Connell]

Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I was the tattletale in the class.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody.

[Gordon Brown]

Then daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Next time in Moscow I feel delulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downing Street.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Let's go have a tour.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Blimey, it's Laura in the studio.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And now we are well over a week since the first enormous news bomb occasion of the U.S. justice Department releasing this enormous cache of more than 3 million documents relating to the activities of the now passed away convicted wealthy pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. But the shockwaves for our politics here in this country just keep coming.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes, because we don't often get source material like this. They tried the authorities establishment tries to give it a 30 year rule, then it will sometimes give it a 100 year rule and if they're really lucky, they can give it forever. Secrecy rules. British Britain's secrecy rules are fascinating. So to see emails from the Business secretary to an outside interest during the financial crisis emergency cabinet meeting is staggering.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It is absolutely staggering. And I said this to Adam on Wednesday. I haven't seen a scandal like this, I really haven't. And I've covered lots of nefarious bad behavior over the years. You know, whether that was politicians behaving badly in their private life, people doing things that they wouldn't be proud of if they emerged, involving talking to businesses or nudging here and hinting there, and frankly also just obviously often being very mean to each other and their colleagues. This is absolutely off the reservation in terms of the things that I've covered in 20 years in UK politics. The suggestion that someone sitting in the UK cabinet, at a time of genuine crisis was, according to these documents, passing information outside the government to an ally of his who maybe stood to make great commercial gain from it. And that's why you've heard politician after politician this week say they feel that Peter Mandelson betrayed Labor. It's. You've seen Keir Starmer tell us again and again and again and again how angry he is. But the question for me is not really this weekend about what's in the Epstein documents. It's not really about what Peter Mandelson did or did not. This, for me, has moved to be a story all about the Prime Minister's authority and whether or not he can get through this moment of great jeopardy. Into this, this morning, of course, walks Gordon Brown.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Peter Mandelson has not given an official statement on the latest allegations of leaking sensitive financial information. But his is that he's not acted in any way criminally and that he was not motivated by financial gain. Can I ask you, with your years of covering it inside, if you've been surprised by the visceral shock and anger of the governing party? I mean, I know there's a lot of blame to go around, but are you surprised by how the Labour MPs are feeling?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think there's a few different things there. So, one, I am not surprised at how taken aback people who were close colleagues of Peter Madison were at the time, or people who felt they knew him. One minister said to me yesterday, you know, we thought he shared our values, and it turns out we were completely wrong. And I'm not surprised either by how angry Keir Starmer is, because he took a risk giving him the job knowing it was a risk, and that risk has turned out to be an absolutely calamitous political mistake. So I'm not surprised by how angry he is at that. I am, though, surprised. Surprised by the nature of the scale of this. And I'm also not surprised by the sentiment of some bits of the Labour Party who are, to some degree, going around with a little bit of satisfaction saying, I told you so. You know, we should be clear. Peter Mandelson has always been a divisive figure in the labor movement. You know, somebody else in the Cabinet said to me yesterday, I've always hated him and he's always hated me. And there are. So this is not a sort of universal, oh, he was everybody's best friend. He's always been somebody, even from the early days, about whom people had reservations about his style of politics, his manner, the kinds of things that he, he did. And I think that element of this has maybe been a bit lost in the whole swirl of this, partly because they're biggest sort of headline coming to Prime Minister is about how cross he was. But there's always been hesitation about him, which of course takes us back to the very, you know, this sort of fact of, I suppose the political original sin, Kmer making the decision to take a risk because it was a risk and it was a judgment. K is not responsible for Peter Mandelson's behavior and he's certainly not responsible for what happened in the government that was in charge more than 10 years ago. But what he is responsible for is the decision that he made. And he made the decision knowing it was a risk.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So Gordon Brown, it was who appointed him back into his. Hence the reason why we're talking about the emergency cabinet meeting which Gordon Brown was chairing. But he is sort of giving qualified support to Keir Starmer. Here's what he said about the current Prime Minister.

[Gordon Brown]

I know the man. Look, in other Prime Ministers, you've been questioning their integrity. You've been questioning whether they are guilty of some unquestionable mistakes in terms of their personal finances and their personal lobbying and everything else. This is not the case for Keir Starmer. You know, I can look in his eyes and I can see that he is a man of integrity. He wants to do the right things. Perhaps he's been too slow to do the right things, but he must now do the right things now. And let's judge what he does on what happens in the next few months when he tries to, and I believe will try to clean up the system.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, as you say, Paddy, that's so interesting and I think really significant because that is in normal speak, that's, I think he's still the guy, but he's really going to have to pull his finger out or else Gordon Brown essentially is saying there, look, Keir Starmer's got a massive vital task to do. Clean up this mess, be able to move on, kick out the seedier edges of politics. But if he doesn't, was the implicit threat we will judge him in a few months time. And he does actually use the phrase he'll be judged in the next few months. Now that's not Gordon Brown doing a John McDonnell and he'd hate that comparison, saying, look, Kirsten must consider his position. He's not saying that at all. But I have to say I wouldn't be the only person in our business who might have been expecting Gordon Brown this morning to say something maybe a bit more full throated like, of course, any, any idea of getting rid of the leader is completely ridiculous. What matters here are the issues. He didn't do that. He sort of said, yes, I think Keir Starmer will do this and he should. But there was, you know, I think a realism maybe actually in Gordon Brown's assessment this morning and I think that something has changed this week and in the normal sort of, you know, conversations and calls that I do towards the, you know, before we meet up on a Saturday, so that I'm not talking rubbish. There are definitely people who up until this moment have been in the position of saying, look, everything's difficult, everything's hard, but we've just got to get our heads down because that landing zone where we can climb out of this and where it turns around and Kirstama's fine and by 2029 it'll all be OK. Let's not do something crackers like think about changing the leader. That sentiment's shifted and this fiasco in the last few days for it has been, that has moved some people who were still prepared to put faith in Keir Starmer, that it would be over in the end, it would be okay in the end. It's moved some of those people into what I think is now the consensus in the Labour Party is that he's not going to be the leader at the time of the next general election.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Because Parliament, there's that moment, isn't there? There have been moments which follow it by sitting there in it and I've been following by watching on the telly and listening when Kemi Badenot asks him three times, when you made the appointment, did you know that he had maintained a relationship with the convicted Jeffrey Epstein? And three, three goes, which is very reminiscent of the way Keir Starmer played Boris Johnson. He would go, think very carefully, think very carefully. And Keir Starmer's attitude in opposition was employed against him.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Absolutely.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And he finally says that, yes, that information was known. And then there's an ah, someone in the background goes, ah. But there's a lot going on with Gordon Brown's interview for me because I remember the TBGBs, the extraordinary psychodrama between Gordon Brown. Oh yeah, and Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson in the, in the emails that have been released by the Americans, describes himself as the third man. And also Peter Manderson's expected to have said by one of the exchanges, we think he was finally going, finally got.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Him to go and this is part of Labour's family history, if you like. You know, Peter Manderson and Gordon Brown, there was no love lost between them. Gordon Brown has explained his decision to bring him back into government back in that period in 2009 and 10. Essentially sort of saying, well, it was more important for the country to get somebody in who knew what they were doing than it was for me to sort of continue my long running grudge with him after he decided with Tony Blair over me. I'm paraphrasing. And there's another choice phrase in the. In his newspaper article that he put in the Guardian this morning by Gordon Brown where he said, he said Peter Madison had been less than a friend to me or something like that. But this sort of huge schism that has opened up in the Labour Party over all of this, it feels to me it's sort of like a kind of black hole into which just more and more and Moore is getting, is getting sucked. But yeah, look, Gordon Brown is clearly really fed up about what's happened here. He was obviously out trying to bat for the reputation of his own government, to separate himself from what Peter Mandelson may or may not have been up to, to say also to use this moment to push for what he believes has to happen and what he'd already said would happen, is massively expanding the efforts to root out any sleazing corruption in Parliament. He thinks there should be a ban on MPS having second jobs. He thinks that lobbying should basically be blown up and not be allowed. So he's at the same time sort of pushing his own desire, he's pushing his own policy plans forward here. But I do think that we have to look at his intervention this morning. Also importantly, in terms of the chances of Keir Starmer being able to get through this. And as we record at 2:18, I can say, like, I'm making myself a complete hostage to fortune and maybe tomorrow I will be wrong. It seems to me at 2:18 on a Saturday afternoon that there is not that likely to be sort of huge fireworks this weekend. There's been all sorts of rumors going on this morning about, about what might not happen, but. But what could happen really? Oh yeah. I mean, on a weekend like this. Look, this has been an incredible sort of sensational and I don't mean that in an oh, how exciting. I mean an extraordinary few days in the life of this government. Incredibly damaging, incredibly serious, a real sense of peril around the place. So by the time you get to a Saturday, you know, mps, journalists, people sort of around the place are kind of, oh, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next? Because surely there must be something. Actually, there is a slightly eerie sense of calm. One minister described it to me yesterday as this sort of terrible stasis, right, where everyone's like, what's gonna happen next? But who knows? By Sunday morning, all sorts of other things might have happened. But it feels to me at the moment there's a bit of a kind of, oh, my God, that was a really long week.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So sort of. And pause. Sort of. Yeah, for now. So back to the interview, this given on the radio this morning. There is a bit of COVID perhaps for the Prime Minister in that Gordon Brown, who's master of the kind plan and, you know, he loves to get a big plan together, coordinated if possible, globally or with big institutions.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So he's saying that he thinks there's a failure of joining all the dots in our establishment. And here's how he put it to Amal Rajan on Today, Keir Starmer was.

[Gordon Brown]

Misled and he was betrayed. And of course, that is not sufficient explanation for what happened. There is a systemic failure to do proper vetting, to go through the proper procedures and to actually have, in my view, should be public hearings for anybody who is going to be in a senior position representing the British government. They do it in America. We do it for. Even the members of the Monetary Policy Committee have got to come before the House of Commons for hearings. We didn't do it for Manderson. So the private vetting is one thing. There should have been public hearings as the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee recommended, so that people could ask the questions of Mandelson and see whether he was indeed the liar that he has now been seen to be.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So he's basically saying thumbs up today. Memory Thornbury, who wanted to hold Madison in front of MPS and ask all sorts of questions to probe whether or not he was really up for the job. But I think newscasters might be sort of interested in this because as you say, you can hear Gordon Brown there very clearly saying, look, we need a completely different way of doing this. And there's been so much froth and written and discussed this week about vetting and the vetting as if there is some kind of orderly flowchart, serious procedure that is always followed. That's actually just not the case. There's so many variables in this. And, you know, one official said to me, look, this is actually a red herring because this was a political appointment and Broadly. Look, if the Prime Minister says they want someone, the Prime Minister's gonna get someone and they're going to get their pick. But Gordon Brown there, as you said, is suggesting really something quite different, where we basically have, well, you know, Portcullis House hearings. Anyway. You have sort of Capitol Hill hearings for any big job.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah. It would be a very big change. He wants it to happen. He's given the Prime Minister through three months, effectively three or four months. When you saw Peter Mandelson and you did an interview with him three weeks ago.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. Which feels like another universe.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, it does, yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. Feels like another lifetime.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's the pace of the releases and here's the corollary I'm going to make.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, I like that word. I can't wait to say it.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, there's going to be now the release of the. The British Mandelson papers. I'm using the word papers, But I mean, WhatsApp messages and if I understand the system correctly, it's a crime to delete a message. So if they are, there is out there a WhatsApp twixt minister a and Peter Mandelson and it's been requested. Parliament has to be able to see that.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, either way, whatever the technicalities are, what we do know is that there's going to be an avalanche of information and communications about Peter Mandelson from Peter Mandelson and, And with me to. With.

[Paddy O'Connell]

With me as government Minister or anyone else in government. I'm Wes streeting. I'm Morgan McSweeney.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I've got to fess up my WhatsApps.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Correct. And we know from covering Boris Johnson's government how much trouble WhatsApps can get people into. And I don't know what was in their WhatsApps. No, I've got absolutely no idea. But you can imagine, you know, do you can imagine that there will be all sorts of things that might prove to be very embarrassing for everyone involved? They might prove to be very embarrassing also for the UK's relationship with the White House. Think the American ambassador, the chap who's about to be avointed as the American ambassador is in close contact with close colleagues, maybe discussing the American administration. So we don't know when we're going to see those. We know there might be as many as a hundred thousand doc. And when we say documents, this might be, you know, a quick text exchange, it might be an email, it might this, that and the other. But that whole episode may yet become even more embarrassing for the government. And that therefore could, and I'm saying it could no more than that. But that could make life impossible for, you know, one mix we need to stay in Downing Street. It could give another moment when mps are thinking, oh, my God, we just can't carry on like this. And very often in politics, people say we can't go on like this. And then they do. And as we always do at the weekends, we should say overtly because it's true and it's worth remembering. All kinds of things could happen. There is still, although it's getting narrower and narrower, there is still a narrow path where you can see none of secure. Starmer's leadership challenges actually are brave enough to step up to the plate. He manages to find a course through. Maybe the economy improves, maybe the government's changes eventually start to cheer up the country. Who knows? But this week has been a really big moment and it's without question has made things much more perilous. And, you know, even people are very close to the center would now, you know, not be betting, I was going to say their mortgages, but maybe not even betting their lunch money that they'll be there by the time of the next general election.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So Keir Starmer must own his own mistake, who she says is regretted. And here's something else that's true. David Cameron, Teresa May, Boris Johnson, Liz Trush, Risi Sunak, and now Keir Starmer have delivered from Downing Street a diet of doom for a decade. And it's been questioned openly whether or not the British Prime Minister is a job that can be done. The person who said that to me most recently is your predecessor, Andrew Ma, who spoke to me for Radio 4 this weekend. He says, I seriously now doubt if this is a job that anyone is equipped to actually do because of the way modern life has now gone.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But I think if I'm allowed to disagree with my esteemed predecessor, good. Like labor had all the ingredients for that. They were an absolutely whopping majority. They had a leader who had a very tight grip of the center, had a very tight grip of the party, had enormous numbers of new mps, I think a lot of people knocking around the place would suggest in response to that. It's a very interesting point, but had Labour done its homework, which many of them now wish they'd done their homework, they wish they'd come in with the plans that they now have ready to go 18 months ago know, they wish that they hadn't made some very silly mistakes and things like taking free glasses or you know, trying to get rid of winter fuel allowance and then going back on it. I. I think there's always a bit of a risk in making big statements based on one thing. I mean, in a funny way, right, this has all become an absolute nightmare for the sitting government because of one man's relationship with one other man.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

10 years ago. And that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, we are forever in never, ever, ever going to have stable government ever again, but it's a really interesting debate to have. And it's also debate that's being had in government. Right. So there are people who go, oh, my God, this is absolutely horrendous, but let's not forget how chaotic we might look if we try and change the leader. Well, someone. Yeah, gone.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I was just going to say that the editor's keen that we make the Manchester United connection.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes. So this is a minister said to me, basically, anyone who fancies this job needs to remember what the cost of chaos could be. And when there's a risk, we just end up as a country looking like Manu. Like we can't hold on to a manager. And that raises serious questions, which Andrew Mars raising about us as a country. Like, what does it say about our attention span? What does it say about voters, willingness to put their faith in anyone and anything. But, you know, even when people might want to say, politicians might want to tell us that the vast majority of them go into it for the right reasons, which I think is true, that they're all about public duty, which many of them are. It's also true that how things have unfolded has given members of the public some pretty good reasons to look at them and think, well, hang on a minute, you don't know what you're doing. Why should I have faith in you?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Since 2010, how many times has Manchester United change manager and how many Prime Ministers have we had? And while you're thinking, yeah, I should say that Manchester United have beaten Spurs 2 nil while we've been wanging on.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, that's good, because there's not neither. Well, it's not good for either me or you. I was going to say probably two people, least in the country, who we have sincere reactions.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We know, we've noted the result and we say to spurs and Manchester United fans, we understand it's a significant result.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, what time's the Scottish rugby and what times part at Thistle and are they even playing today? But I would feel more strongly, shall.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I answer the question I asked or I do want.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I know the answer to what.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Of.

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[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The history Bureau. Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Okay, so the number of PMs Cameron, May, Johnson, Sunak, Truss, Starmer. But if you include the beginning of 2010, you've got to do Gordon Brown. So that's seven.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's correct. Your answer is correct because you've got them slightly out of the wrong order.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Brown, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Sunak. Trust Starmer.

[Paddy O'Connell]

No, you said Sunak trust. It's trust Sunak.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, yeah, sorry. Trust Sunak. Fire me.

[Paddy O'Connell]

God, I'm not going to fire you. I just should for that first time I've tripped you up in two years. So the answer on Manchester United is in that same time. So there have been seven, which you've just identified. There's been 13.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

What?

[Paddy O'Connell]

So the minister who's saying to you, let's not do it like that is saying, how many more times do we have to change?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right, Exactly. Not least because they were saying to me it's incredibly disruptive for the country. And you know, the several ministers in the last few days have said that to me. Look, don't underestimate. If we do this, you then get a new minister comes in, whatever work they were doing gets looked at again and you know, then, like, nothing happens. You know, one of the reasons lots of things were in a mess when the Tories left was because with all the chopping and changing projects that were meant to be getting underway, the brakes get put on, the new minister wants to do something different and then nothing happened. So then voters look at the government's promises even more skeptically. They think, well, you didn't do anything for me anyway. But the other reason why it's bad, particularly for labor, is they ran a whole election campaign based on not being like that. You know, they were the ones who were meant to bring stability and meant to bring calm and all the rest. And it was meant to be an end of the Tory chaos and confusion. And Keir Starmers was promising to roll up his sleeves and be sensible and stable, and that just hasn't come to pass.

[Paddy O'Connell]

News particle are away at Elgin city today. Ah, 1500 kickoff.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, well, we can revel in that tomorrow. Come on.

[Paddy O'Connell]

The Jags newscasters listening in the future will know the result of that. That clash. So there we are. Churn. There's a lot of churn.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I wonder if we should imagine you as a milkmaid.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I wonder if we should just stick to your flabber being gassed. As we limp towards the end of Saturday's newscast, Everyone, it seems, has been staggered by the sense of authority ebbing away from this Prime Minister. That seems to be the story of the week.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think that's right, yeah. I think it's a real change. He completely lost control of Parliament on Wednesday and it's really hurt his authority and it's very hard to see that coming back. And I think it's fair to say that at the moment, Keir Sama's largely being kept in place because none of the people who want his job think now is their moment to strike. And that means that Keir Starmer largely is in his job at the moment from a position of weakness rather than from a position of strength. And that sounds very doomy because that is how the mood is among Labour circles this weekend. Doesn't mean it can't change. But that's where things are at now.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And on the TV, on BBC One and iPlayer at Nine on Sunday. You have a key figure in all of this.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes. So Pat McFadden, who's now the Welfare Secretary, he's with us tomorrow morning and he. I think it's going to be really fascinating because. Not just because he's doing a big and important job in the Government now, but he was the Prime Minister's right hand man in number 10 when the Mandelson appointment was made. He was also Peter Randelson's deputy in the Business department in the era where we now know what Peter Mandelson was doing without his colleague's knowledge. And even before that, Peter. Peter Mandelson was also someone who worked very closely with Pat McFadden for many, many years.

[Paddy O'Connell]

On the 97 campaign.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

On the 97 campaign. And then in Tony Blair's number 10, you know, Pat McFadden, who's somebody who is well liked and well respected in labor ranks, but he's someone who was absolutely at the heart of that new Labor Blair project. So he has a unique perspective on this. And I, I have, I have no idea how he's, what he's going to say tomorrow, how much he's going to open up about it, or whether we're going to hear the same, oh, we're all terribly angry and we're all terribly angry, or it'll be really interesting to hear what he's got to say tomorrow.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I should be bringing for your ears, David Blunkett to the airwaves and the podcast and also Andrew Mars reflections on how life's changed. And we're going to ask Tani Gray Thompson to think about the dube olympic year 2012 and contrast it with our national conversation now because the headlines are full of money, corruption. And back then there was the Queen's 60th Jubilee. There was the, these big victories and this amazing Olympics that were staged in the uk so what's that been doing to us as voters to be hearing this doom dripped for a decade?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, one of the things it's been doing to lots of voters is make them feel like looking for something completely different, which is why I can shamelessly segue into a plug for our film that we've made in the last few months about reform, because it's clear a lot of this mess, whether it's Tory mess or labor mess, if we look at the polls, that's pushing voters towards something different, whether it's reform or increasingly also whether it's the Greens. We talked a lot about the Greens last weekend, but people right now in this moment seem to be saying anything but the red and blue team. And one of the things that you could do this weekend if you had an error free is watch our documentary on the iplayer about reform.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Good. And now we say goodbye by way of a very long silence. So thank you very much for listening. And here is a Barry Gardiner inspired silence.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Sorry I ruined the silence because you just really make me laugh.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But you're.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I'll try again.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Bye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, bye. Goodbye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.

[Helena Merriman]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merryman and in a new BB in BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.