Everything We Know About The Minneapolis ICE Shooting…So Far

Summary

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Newscast (BBC)

Episode: "Everything We Know About The Minneapolis ICE Shooting… So Far"

Date: January 8, 2026
Host: Adam Fleming
Guests: Anthony Zurcher (BBC North America Correspondent), Madeleine Halpert (BBC Minneapolis Reporter)

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Overview

This episode tackles a developing and highly charged story from Minneapolis, where an ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) officer shot and killed Renee Nicole Goode, a mother of three. The incident, captured on multiple videos, has ignited fierce debates over immigration enforcement, policing, and federal-vs-local authority—unfolding, notably, just miles from where George Floyd was killed in 2020. BBC’s Adam Fleming is joined by Washington correspondent Anthony Zurcher and on-the-ground Minneapolis reporter Madeleine Halpert to break down the facts, politics, and public reactions thus far.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE in Focus: What Is ICE and Why Is It a Flashpoint?

Timestamp: 02:49 – 04:27

• Anthony Zurcher explains ICE’s expanded nationwide role under the Trump administration:

  “They’re federal officials… authorized and expanded … to engage in immigration enforcement arrests and detentions across the country, not just at points of entry.”
  — (03:17)

• Thousands of ICE officers recently deployed to Minneapolis to crack down on unauthorized immigrants, particularly amidst tensions with the local Somali community.

2. The Shooting—What Happened and How Is It Being Framed?

Timestamp: 04:27 – 08:28

• Madeleine Halpert describes the graphic video footage, the disputed narratives, and the emotional local response:

  “You can see in the video, her car keeps going and kind of crashes into this bank ... you can see in the snow, traces of blood from what happened. They’ve set up a vigil with candles and roses.”
  — (05:05)

• The Trump administration (and Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem) characterized the incident as domestic terrorism:

  “[She] said Renee Goode essentially weaponized her vehicle, using her vehicle as a weapon, attempting to drive into the law enforcement officers...”
  — Anthony Zurcher, (06:15)

• Critics, including city officials, dispute the official ICE account and call for federal agents to leave Minneapolis.

3. Political Storm: Local vs. Federal Response

Timestamp: 08:28 – 12:25

• The White House and key officials, including Donald Trump and VP J.D. Vance, publicly back ICE:

  “This was a reflection of the rhetoric that comes from radical leftists who have been encouraging these protests ... people who said that the video evidence suggests that this was an excessive use of force are gaslighting.”
  — Anthony Zurcher relaying Trump and Vance’s comments, (07:20)

• Local officials, like Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, are outspoken in condemnation:

  “...Having seen the video myself, I want to tell everybody directly—that is bullshit… ICE, get the fuck out of Minneapolis.”
  — Jacob Frey, Mayor of Minneapolis, (10:35)

4. Community Fallout & Protests in Minneapolis

Timestamp: 08:34 – 10:15

• Madeleine Halpert reports on community grief, protests, and fear:

  “Everybody is just so impacted and upset by what happened … people crying, talking about how much fear ICE has created in the community.”
  — (08:34)

• Protests have ranged from peaceful vigils to public shouting; some claims of teargas deployed, but overall, "relatively calm" scenes per Halpert.
  — (09:36)

5. Investigation Stand-Off: Who Gets to Run It?

Timestamp: 15:04 – 16:06

• Minnesota Governor Tim Walls (Harris’s former running mate) claims the federal government is trying to “box out” the state from the investigation.

  “He’s worried there won’t be an unbiased investigation if it’s only carried out by the federal government … that will continue probably to be a point of tension.”
  — Madeleine Halpert, (15:21)

6. Escalating Federal Rhetoric

Timestamp: 16:17 – 17:05

• After the main discussion, Vice President J.D. Vance holds a news conference, sharply rebuking federal critics and the media:

  “The president stands with ICE. I stand with ICE. … You people in the media … have been lying about this attack. She was trying to ram this guy with her car. He shot back. He defended himself.”
  — J.D. Vance, (16:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adam Fleming:

  “Occasionally there is a news story that goes everywhere and is focused on a video ... you sort of get drawn into the story as a participant as well.”
  (00:53)

• Anthony Zurcher:

  “They [ICE officers] are armed. They have police-like powers. … By all intents and purposes, they’re federal law enforcement officials.”
  (04:06)

• Madeleine Halpert:

  “Even for those who didn’t know her, this has clearly really impacted the community.”
  (09:07)

• Anthony Zurcher:

  “…This chasm between federal officials … and local and state Democrats … is growing, it’s not shrinking.”
  (12:21)

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Contextual Insights

• The shooting took place just miles from where George Floyd was killed in 2020, fueling intense local memories and sensitivities about law enforcement accountability.
• Minneapolis and Minnesota have become pivotal battlegrounds in the national debate over immigration, both due to their large Somali community and recent political scandals involving state social aid.
• There is a growing chasm over who holds the authority and credibility to investigate such incidents—federal agencies, viewed as responsible for the shooting, or local/state officials who claim to represent the community's interests.

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | Time | |--------------|------------------------------------------------|---------| | ICE’s role & expansion | Why ICE is prominent currently | 02:49 – 04:27 | | What’s seen in the video | Description of the shooting incident | 04:27 – 05:57 | | Federal narrative & “domestic terrorism” | Feds/administration response | 05:57 – 07:20 | | Trump/Vance reaction | National political context | 07:20 – 08:28 | | Victim’s profile/community response | Renee Goode and impact | 08:28 – 09:29 | | Protests on the ground | Nature of protests | 09:29 – 10:15 | | Mayor Frey's explicit statement | Local leadership’s condemnation | 10:15 – 11:15 | | Investigation standoff | Who investigates, tension over process | 15:04 – 16:06 | | J.D. Vance’s news conference | Escalation of federal rhetoric | 16:17 – 17:05 |

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Tone

The episode is urgent, detailed, and at times emotional—particularly when quoting local officials and residents. The hosts and correspondents maintain a factual, explanatory tone, but highlight deep political divisions and raw feelings, especially within the Minneapolis community.

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Summary

This episode of Newscast offers a thorough, up-to-the-minute account of a controversial shooting by an ICE officer in Minneapolis, unpacking the conflicting accounts, local and federal political stakes, and raw community feelings. Listeners are given a sense of the fraught atmosphere both at street level and in the halls of power, as well as the underlying, unresolved debates over immigration, policing, and accountability in the U.S.

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Transcript

[Simon Jack]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Angie Hicks]

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[Adam Fleming]

Hello. Occasionally there is a news story that goes everywhere and is focused on a video and you can't really avoid it, whether you go looking for it or not. And you sort of get drawn into the story as a participant as well. And that has happened again in the last 24 hours. And it was to do with the shooting of a mother of three in Minneapolis in the state of Minnesota in the US by by armed immigration officers. And it's now caused a massive political storm in the United States. And also on top of that, it's happening just a few miles away from where George Floyd was killed by the Minnesota police in 2020, which sparked those huge protests all around the world. So we're going to start off today's episode of Newscast talking about that story.

[Simon Jack]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC Fat Boy.

[Adam Fleming]

Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Simon Jack]

I was the tattletale in the class. Can I have an apology, please?

[Adam Fleming]

I trust almost nobody that Daddy has to sometimes do. Strong language Next time in Moscow. I feel the lulu with no salulu.

[Simon Jack]

Take me down to Downing Street.

[Adam Fleming]

Let's go have a tour.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Blimey.

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. I'm going to start today's episode talking about the shooting of Renee Nicole Goode in Minneapolis in Minnesota by an officer who was working for ice, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency of the federal government. And there's now a sort of turf war and a war of political words going on between the Trump administration, the federal government, and the administration in the state, led by Governor Tim Walls, who was Kamala Harris's running mate at the last election. So there's lots to dive into and the people are gonna take us through it bit by bit and explain it all for us. Our hero newscast in Washington is my Americast cousin, Anthony Zuercher. Hello, Anthony.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Hey, good to be here.

[Adam Fleming]

And our colleague Madeleine Halpert is in Minneapolis. Hi, Madeline.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Hi, thanks for having me.

[Adam Fleming]

Thanks for coming on. Before we dive into the event itself and all the ramifications, Anthony, can you just explain to newscasters who aren't in the states or familiar with what's going on in the States what ICE actually is and why they've been such a hot topic in the last year or so?

[Anthony Zuercher]

ICE is the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency. It essentially is the federal agency that is in charge of enforcing American immigration laws. They're federal officials. You see them at airports, you know, traditionally. But now they have been authorized and expanded by the Trump administration to engage in immigration enforcement arrests and detentions across the country, not just at points of entry. And so you've seen them step up enforcement in American cities ranging from Los Angeles to here in Washington, D.C. to Charlotte, North Carolina, to Chicago. And now the most recent deployment, thousands of federal officials have been sent to Minneapolis to investigate and detain unauthorized immigrants in the state.

[Adam Fleming]

And they're not the police, but they do have police like powers. And they are armed.

[Anthony Zuercher]

They are armed. They have police like powers. They have the power of the ability to use lethal force if they fear for their lives. They have the power to make arrests. So they, by all intents and purposes, they're federal law enforcement officials in the same way that a local police officer is a local law enforcement official.

[Adam Fleming]

And Madeleine, at the heart of this coverage of this story is this quite extraordinary video of the incident happening. There's one angle in particular that everyone will have seen on social media, but there's other, other versions have emerged in the last 24 hours or so. I imagine it's sort of like emblazoned on your eyeballs. Now, as the person at the scene, you talk me through. Oh, and I can also hear some activity around where you are as well.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Apologies for that loud background noise.

[Adam Fleming]

No, please don't worry. Just talk, talk me through kind of your take on what's in that video. And I realize narrating a video on a podcast is not the easiest thing, but just you take it away.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Yeah, I mean, what's interesting, I think, is kind of the differing takes we've gotten about what has happened, what happened in that video. Right. You have local officials, including the mayor, saying that ICE needs to get out of town and, you know, disputing this kind of narrative that we've heard from, from Trump officials, in particular Kristi Noem, the Homeland Security secretary, that the ICE agent was acting in self defense because the person, you know, was driving their car at them. And that's the narrative that local officials are disputing. But you know, you can see in the video, her car keeps going and kind of crashes into this bank. And we're actually right now just about a block away from that, from where that happened. We were right by there earlier. And you can actually see in the snow, you know, traces of blood from what happened. And they've set up this kind of vigil with candles and roses to kind of COVID up that space where this really horrific thing happened.

[Adam Fleming]

And Anthony Kristi Noem, the Homeland Security secretary who's in charge of ice, she has described this as domestic terrorism. She says her officers were responding to a domestic terrorist. Why does she use that label? What does she cite as evidence for Renee Nicole Goode being a domestic terrorist?

[Anthony Zuercher]

Well, she said Renee Goode essentially weaponized her vehicle, used her vehicle as a weapon, attempting to drive into the law enforcement officers, the ICE officers who were on the scene. And that was the justification for the use of lethal force in response. And she also has talked about how these immigration enforcement officials had been followed, had been harassed by protesters, including Ms. Good, over the course of the day. They were impeding authorized law enforcement activities, which is a violation of the law. And then when the authorities approached her vehicle and tried to get her to get out of the vehicle, that is when she began to drive. And in their view, and in Noem's assertion that by driving the car in that way, she put officer safety at risk and that justified the use of force.

[Adam Fleming]

And Anthony Donald Trump and J.D. vance, the vice president, have backed up Kristi Noem in quite strong terms.

[Anthony Zuercher]

They have Donald Trump posted on Truth Social last night saying that this was a reflection of the rhetoric that comes from radical leftists who have been encouraging these protests. JD Vance posted on the social media website X today saying that people who said that the video evidence suggests that this was an excessive use of force or gaslighting, that it was clear the officer acted in order to protect himself and again pointed towards what he said were radical leftist ideologies that were creating an environment where this sort of thing, while tragic, was unavoidable. It was the responsibility of those who created this environment and the responsibility of, of Good, the driver to heed law enforcement officers. And when she tried to leave the scene and when sheshe stepped on the gas on her vehicle. That essentially set the situation, the conditions where this tragic event took place.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Madeleine, we've been learning a lot more about Renee Goode, the victim of this tragedy.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Yes, we have. We've heard that she's a mother of three. I mean, her mother has described her as a kind and good person. You know, her family's spoken to the media a bit. We're hoping that we'll. We'll hear some more from her. But, you know, even those who didn't know her, we've been speaking to people in the community, and everybody you can tell is just so impacted and upset by what happened. I mean, last night when we got here around 11pm there were still people gathered near the site in the street, and they were talking. Just, there were people crying, there were people talking about, you know, how much fear ICE has created in the community. I spoke with somebody this morning who said. Said that she was in the area, and as soon as she heard that this person, that Renee Goode had been shot, she went to the site and saw her car and saw her blood all over the place, and just about how horrifying that was. So, you know, even for those who didn't know her, this has clearly really impacted the community.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Madeleine, I can hear some. Well, lots of noise behind you. Some of it sounded a bit like maybe somebody shouting or protesting.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Yes. So there have been protests all day. Right now, there is one man who's kind of yelling obscenities at people and trying to kind of antagonize the protesters a bit, but for the most part, they're not engaging him and things have been relatively peaceful. There were some reports earlier this morning at a protest that we went to by a federal building of teargas, and people were wearing big teargas masks. But when we got there, we didn't really see any of that. We just saw, you know, a lot of armed officers and then people peacefully protesting, kind of screaming insults against ice. But. But there were no altercations that we saw. And right now, you know, it's the middle of the day, and it's still relatively, relatively calm. Just people peacefully protesting.

[Adam Fleming]

And Anthony, let's talk about the political battle over this. Now, you've already talked about what President Trump and J.D. vance and Christine Noem have said. Now, both of you have referred to some quite incendiary political comments by the mayor of Minnesota, who is called Jacob Frey. And we wanted to hear his comments in full because they're very dramatic and they definitely upp the Ante in terms of the politics, but just a warning, he does not hold back and uses some very strong language in this clip. They are already trying to spin this as an action of self defense. Having seen the video of myself, I want to tell everybody directly that is bullshit. There's little I can say again that will make this situation better. But I do have a message for our community, for our city, and I have a message for ICE to ice. Get the fuck out of Minneapolis. Anthony, what's going on there?

[Anthony Zuercher]

I mean, clearly emotional, angry and quick to respond. And the situation is one where there is plenty of video evidence. There were protesters and people on the scene, neighbors who had cameras, who had cell phones, who were taking video of this. And so I think what Frey was pointing out there was that you're getting an account from federal officials, but from what he saw and what the publicans see, in his view, it was an excessive use of force. And he says that essentially that the federal government is not presenting the truth as it is now. You know, everyone can pull different pieces from these videos and if you look at different snippets of them, they do different perspectives, tell different stories. And so, you know, it's going to be one of those instances where people listen to the politicians they want to listen to, they see the video clips that kind of confirm their prior assumptions. And this chasm between federal officials who are saying this was perfectly justified and local and state Democrats who are saying this is a glaring abuse of power and that divide is growing, it's not shrinking.

[Adam Fleming]

And Anthony, I don't know how much visibility of Jacob Frey you've had in the past, but is that quite typical, that way of him talking?

[Anthony Zuercher]

I mean, I think it's a little more outspoken than we've heard in the past, although he is a young and fairly energetic mayor. He was just elected to, I believe, his third term there in Minneapolis. And we also have to remember that this is taking place in Minneapolis, a city that was hit by mass protests following George Floyd's death, choking death at the hands of Minneapolis police in 2020. And some of those protests turned violent and there was, you know, massive outcry against police brutality and excessive foresaw on the part of police protests that spread nationwide in the Black Lives Matter movement. So this is all happening in that context. And so, you know, it's very easy to draw parallels between what happened six years ago, what is happening now. And some of the figures, such as the governor, Tim Waltz and Jacob Frey, the mayor, they're the same figures who Were, you know, central in that episode.

[Adam Fleming]

As well, because, of course, Tim Walls was Kamala Harris running mate in the election.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Yeah, yeah. A prominent national politician and also one who has himself been mired in controversy just recently, last week announced that he was not going to or he's abandoning his bid for reelection in November because of a swirling fraud scandal that has resulted in convictions in the misuse of COVID food aid funds distributed by the state that were federal funds. Also, allegations of more widespread fraud within the social programs of Minnesota. Fraud that wasthat tied in the Somali immigrant community in Minnesota and was one of the reasons why one, Donald Trump kind of derided the immigrant community, the Somali immigrant community in Minnesota, and ordered this massive increase in enforcement, immigration enforcement activity in Minneapolis and the surrounding area. So this is the groundwork for this protest. And the reason why, one of the reasons why this incident has become so incendiary is because Minneapolis and Minnesota had become a kind of a central battleground in the debate over immigration enforcement and the role of immigrants and the benefits and potential costs of immigrant communities in this country.

[Adam Fleming]

And Madeleine, as we're recording this episode of newscast, it just gone 6pm UK time on Thursday, a new battleground has opened up and it's over the investigation into the shooting. And who gets to be part of that and who's in charge of it and who has access to what evidence.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Right. And the governor, Tim Walls, has accused the federal government of trying to box them out of this investigation. He just spoke a little, a little while ago and he talked about how concerned he was that there would not be an unbiased investigation if it's only carried out by the federal government. Obviously, this, this incident involved a federal agent. Earlier, it seems like perhaps the state would be involved in the investigation in some capacity, but now, now the governor is saying that might not happen. And he's worried that because of that, there won't be a thorough. A thorough investigation. So we'll have to see if that changes at all. I believe the Homeland Security Secretary has said that they're not trying to box the state government out, but that they don't have the authority to be in the investigation. So that will continue probably to be a point of tension, especially for. Yeah. For local officials.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, well, thank you both for bringing us up to date in such a clear and detailed way. Madeleine, thank you very much.

[Madeleine Halpert]

Thank you so much.

[Adam Fleming]

And Anthony, thanks to you, too.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Always great to be on.

[Adam Fleming]

And just after I finished recording the conversation with those two, J.D. vance, the Vice President, did a news conference in Washington, D.C. where he upped the ante even further with his language. Here's a little bit of what he said to journalists.

[Simon Jack]

The president stands with ice. I stand with ice. We stand with all of our law enforcement officers.

[Anthony Zuercher]

And part of that is recognizing that.

[Simon Jack]

You people in the media, not everybody in this room, but many people in.

[Anthony Zuercher]

This room, have been lying about this attack.

[Simon Jack]

She was trying to ram this guy with her car. He shot back. He defended himself. He's already been seriously wounded in law enforcement operations before. And everybody who's been repeating the lie that this is some innocent woman who was out for a drive in Minneapolis when a law enforcement officer shot at her.

[Adam Fleming]

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Simon Jack]

Every single one of you.

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[Adam Fleming]

Right. Another year, another climb down U turn Change of position delete as preferable by the government. This time it was on their plans to change how business rates are levied on pubs in England. Those plans were unveiled by Rachel Reeves in the Budget last autumn. There was howls of protest from the pub industry that their bills were going to go through the roof. As a result, lots and lots of pressure on the government to change course. And today we learned that they are going to change course. And the person who got the Scoop is the BBC's business editor, Simon Jack.

[Simon Jack]

Hello, Adam.

[Adam Fleming]

Hello. Right, before we do the news, can you take me to business school? How do business rates for pubs actually work?

[Simon Jack]

Originally, I'm so glad you asked this. So there is something called the multiplier, and this is a percentage which is applied to the estimated value of the pub, which is how you calculate the business rates you pay every year. And what happened during the budget was Rachel Reeves made some big promises to the hospitality sector. She said she was going to reduce the multiplier, the percentage that you apply to the value of the pub. Which sounds good, which sounds great. And she said the lowest rates since the 1990s really, you know, a lifeline for that industry which has been hard hit by increases in minimum wage, national insurance etc, etc. So everyone thought, great. And then that that night the official estimate of the value of pubs was adjusted massively higher in most cases. So you're applying a smaller percentage to a much bigger number. Net result, average pub was looking at a business rates rise of 76% over the next three years. Now, some money there to try and smooth out that over time, to sort of smooth it year by year. Nevertheless, an absolute bombshell for, for hospitality, as I said, already feeling hard pressed. So there was enormous backlash, as you will have.

[Adam Fleming]

So I should say that the figures that we're talking about here, you gave the percentage there, but that's like tens.

[Simon Jack]

Tens of thousands, tens of thousands. So for example, I've just been speaking this afternoon to a woman from Northampton whose rateable value for her pub went from 22,000 to 86,000. So even though you have a smaller percentage, she was facing something around £10,000 in extra money each year. So that caused an enormous backlash, not just amongst pub landlords, but also trade bodies and actually some Labour mps who found themselves being barred from their local pubs in protest at this. There's been talks ongoing for some time and earlier today I learned that they are going to climb down on this for pubs in England. And this applies to pubs in England. Slightly different situation in Scotland. So now we don't know how much it's going to go down by. We don't know what form it's exactly going to take. But they wanted to get the message out that we've been listening and we're going to reduce it. Now. It's quite possible that with this new formulation, bills will still go up, but by a bit less. And obviously the, the sector is, is, is pleased, but it only applies to pubs. It's the latest intelligence I get from the treasury and there are calls to extend it to things like hotels and to restaurants who are also hard hit. And the opposition leader, Kemi Badenoch, wants it to go further still. She's offering to cut business rates for all properties on the high street with a rateable value under £110,000. And she's got some ideas about how she would pay for that.

[Adam Fleming]

Just in terms of how this will be delivered by the government. Is it. They're still going ahead with the. With the changes in the valuations. They're just changing the multiplier.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah. Unpicking the valuations is what I'm told is too difficult. It happens every three years now and to unpick that would be a colossal job. So they've got to either change the package of relief, you know, the smoothing, the, if you like, the. The transitional relief package.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, because you can do it, but you can change it bit by bit.

[Simon Jack]

Bit by bit over years, or you lower the multiple a little bit more. That would be, you know, my guess is it could be probably more likely the transitional relief package could be the multiplier, could be a combination of both. But nevertheless, it's you. A lot of people thinking this was becoming inevitable because pubs have, you know, a bit like car makers, have a bit of political clout.

[Adam Fleming]

Also. The other thing that was happening was the withdrawal of some Covid era support.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, that's.

[Adam Fleming]

Is that still being withdrawn?

[Simon Jack]

That's still being withdrawn. So during the COVID era, there was a 75% discount for most pubs applied to your rates bill. That was reduced to a 40% reduction last April. So you saw a doubling and that was going to be removed entirely come to 20April of this year. So you had a confluence events which was making a kind of perfect storm. You got national insurance rises, last budget. You've got big national living wage rises, last budget and some more coming in April, plus the removal of this. You add all that up, a lot of pubs are saying, you know, this is just, you know, this is the straw which will break many of our backs.

[Adam Fleming]

And do you think they're now going to go into battle over some of those things as well? I mean, okay, the sector's already been battling about the living wage employer, national insurance. I just wonder if they now feel, okay, actually they've made progress on this. Let's tackle some of those other things.

[Simon Jack]

I think that's unlikely because I think that in my conversations with government, they think that unpicking stuff that's in the budget is a very difficult thing to do outside of what they describe as a fiscal event. Never. So they're finding other ways to do it through the multiplier or through the, through the transitional relief package. Because, you know, actually unpicking a budget announcement is hard, although not the first time it's been done, of course. In fact, you know, I mean, the political story here is, isn't it, that this is another climb down to add to the, to your bar room tab on top of inheritance tax, disability benefits, winter fuel payments and that will, that's one of the things that people will seize upon. The government knows that, but wants to get out the fact that it's been listening.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

I just wonder how it feels from your point of view that there is yet another climb down, watering down U turn. And I wonder how what the vibes you get from, from treasury people and government people are.

[Simon Jack]

I think that this frustration from. I mean, I think there's exasperation on the part of government themselves that, you know, things don't seem to be able to stick. And I think there's exasperation from business as well, which is that it seems to be we try on a policy for size if we announce it and then if it doesn't fit, we'll sort of, you know, it doesn't fit politically.

[Adam Fleming]

Which might be quite a rational approach. Politics isn't always rational and you certainly don't get rewarded for being rational.

[Simon Jack]

No, quite. And you know, and a lot of people say, look, everyone kicked up a fuss. They've changed their mind, they're going to do something about it. How is that a bad news story? But I think there's a general air of, you know, try and get it right the first time, you know, and these are, you know, these are unpopular things and the government has made some choices about what it wants to do with, you know, with the public finances and there's a lot of moving parts and sometimes you move one square on your little sort of maze without having moved all the others and you have to unpick it a bit. So I think that, you know, I think that business is. Is hoping post that budget and remember that was a very late budget. There was all the shenanigans and the run up to it, there was a leak of it and blah, blah, blah. So I think that people are hoping for a period of calm. So this just adds, I suppose, although it's good news for English pubs, it adds the. To the. To the general idea that things aren't quite as, you know, I don't know, as strategic. Strategic sort of thought through as they might be. But you know, it won't be the first government to sort of realize they made a mist. Who can forget the. The pasty, for example, and the omnishambles.

[Adam Fleming]

Maybe we'll end on a philosophical note as if we're in the pub and it's just last orders has just gone.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

Isn't it yet more evidence, though that pubs aren't treated just the same as businesses. They're treated as sort of national treasures.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Adam Fleming]

Artifacts that have to be preserved because actually they can't function in the same way as every other business.

[Simon Jack]

Well, the employment Minister, Diana Johnson sort of told us just a few moments ago, in fact, that, you know, made that very point, which is that. And Pat McFadden when he was talking media this morning said, you know, we're well aware of the role that pubs play in community lives and you know, they do, you know, sort of your medieval idea of an English village or town is that, you know, there's the church, there's the pub, there's the whatever. And so they do have an. And I think they punch way above their. Their weight, you know, their economic weight in political terms for those very reasons.

[Adam Fleming]

And just with your business editor hat on as opposed to your pub goer hat on do you get.

[Simon Jack]

Can you see dry January, by the way?

[Adam Fleming]

Same here.

[Simon Jack]

Draggin a bit.

[Adam Fleming]

It's been a long year. But have you seen evidence of pubs adjusting to like the bigger cultural Trends like younger people drinking less.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, definitely.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean because I'm not sure I necessarily do when I go out.

[Simon Jack]

Yeah, no, so that the, one of the things about pub, the pubs will tell you is that young people are drinking less or when they go in they're drinking much more non alcoholic stuff. And what you'll notice is that you know, the price of non alcoholic drinks has suddenly started to rise a little bit and make as big a margins they say on the non alcoholic drinks. So there are some cultural shifts there and but as long as I've been business editor the number of pubs closing has been a, has been a stat which has been around for a long time. So I think that it is a sector which has been in long term decline and, and of course the last budget which basically put a lot of, of national insurance, big rises for people on national living wage and really big ones for 18 to 20 year olds. Now those are the people who are serving behind the bars, those are the people who student jobs. So the hospitality industry feels like it's had a pretty raw deal over the last couple of years and of course they're you know, recovering. They've also got lots of COVID debt, debt that they, you know, had to incur because they weren't allowed to open for a period. So it's been a traumatic time for that industry.

[Adam Fleming]

Can I tell you my dry January learning from going to the west country over New Year.

[Simon Jack]

Please do.

[Adam Fleming]

I don't drink IPA style beers because I find them too flavorful.

[Simon Jack]

Okay.

[Adam Fleming]

But an ipa, a non alcoholic IPA to me tastes exactly the same as a normal one. So I'm wondering if instead of drinking non alcoholic lager, which doesn't always taste great, I should transition to non alcoholic IPA because I wouldn't know that I'm drinking anything different.

[Simon Jack]

That's a good idea actually because it's got.

[Adam Fleming]

But I'll be still like.

[Simon Jack]

Is this a question or a cry for help?

[Adam Fleming]

Just an observation. Just an observation. Feel free to chip in with one of your own. Simon, thank you very much indeed. Well, that was a nice political story to end this episode on. In the next episode we're going to be looking at other things that have happened in British politics this week as we review the last five days in the news on newscast. If there's a particular question you have or observation or a news story you want us to flag for us, then please do. We're all ears. It's newscastbc.co.uk or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I'll speak to you very soon.

[Simon Jack]

Bye Bye.

[Adam Fleming]

Newscast.

[Angie Hicks]

Newscast from the BBC. Well, thank you for making it to.

[Adam Fleming]

The end of another news newscast.

[Anthony Zuercher]

You clearly ooze stamina.

[Adam Fleming]

Can I gently encourage you to subscribe.

[Anthony Zuercher]

To us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything.

[Adam Fleming]

Else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.