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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
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- [01:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
Sometimes even just looking at you makes me laugh.
- [01:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, I'm glad I have that effect on you. Serious times. I mean, have you ever known people in politics who don't talk say a lot with their silence?
- [01:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
They certainly do. And this weekend there is something of tumbleweed going across Westminster and also tumbleweed going across the metaphorical Westminster has a
- [02:01]
Paddy O'Connell
new senior Labour figure and Cabinet Secretary of State told him to push off.
- [02:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
So as I understand it, Yvette Cooper, the Foreign Secretary, is also now one of those who has said to Keir Starmer, perhaps you might want to think that this is not realistic for you to stay and fight. We know Heidi Alexander had done that already. I'm told that many other ministers have also now done that. I think that the number of people in Starmer's administration still saying to him stand and fight has dwindled very quickly. So go back 24 hours Friday afternoon, journalists like me are still getting briefings from Keir Starmer's allies that he would stand and fight Andy Barnum, who of course has just won the by election, that he thought he could beat him in any leadership contest. In fact, I was even told when Keir Starmer had decided that he would take on Andy Barnum, was a fortnight ago when he saw Andy Barnum on that big Question Time special and he thought he didn't do it very well. He watched Andy Barnum then do an interview with Victoria on Newsnight where he failed to explain the fiscal rules, the rules on spending and borrowing. And then that Saturday, Keir Starmer phoned up his allies and said, I can beat him, I will stand and fight. To me and the conversations that I've been having in the last 24 hours, that mood of defiance is shifting. And I think by Monday morning we might feel that things have moved very fast.
- [03:30]
Paddy O'Connell
So let's get underway with Saturday's newscast.
- [03:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
- [03:35]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [03:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [03:42]
BBC Podcast Announcer
Six, seven.
- [03:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.
- [03:46]
Premier Protein Advertiser
Daddy has. Has also a special connotation.
- [03:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
Ooh la la. Thinking about it like a panto helped.
- [03:52]
Paddy O'Connell
Do we play music now or what do we do? Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.
- [03:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
And it's Laura in the studio.
- [03:57]
Paddy O'Connell
And it's chaos in number 10 again. The chaos that Labour explicitly promised not to give me as a voter. They weren't going to do personality politics. They weren't going to do Prime Ministerial churn. They were. He said it in Downing Street. They weren't going to do this.
- [04:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
They said it again and again and again. And I'm going to do that thing today that I sometimes do, as it's annoying, but I'm going to read you some of the things that people have told me because I want to explain to newscasters what's been going on behind closed doors in these conversations that people will have without revealing their identities because it means that they can tell the truth privately. We can report on that. Then to picture. To give people a picture of what is really going on. A time when nobody wants to come out explicitly who's been on Keir Starmer's side. But there are people who are increasingly feeling that he is going to have to go. This is to your point. One Labour advisor has worked for the party for a long time, just said to me simply, we promised people we weren't going to do this. That is a big problem and it might be the last promise that Keir Starmer breaks.
- [05:03]
Paddy O'Connell
We knew that there was a chance Andy Burnham would win. He won bigger than it was predicted. It was a bigger turnout than the general election.
- [05:11]
Laura Kuenssberg
Bias some way. Yeah.
- [05:12]
Paddy O'Connell
So it's full beam message from the voters of Makerfield.
- [05:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
Full beam message from the voters of Makerfield. We want Andy Barnum. Full beam message then, from Andy Barnum's supporters to the party. He can beat reform. He is the special anointed one. He should come and do this for the party in the country, not just here in Makerfield. That on Thursday morning or the early hours of Friday morning was clear as day that that was his message. I mean, he didn't do a normal acceptance speech for a backbench mp. He basically said, keir Starmer, I am coming for your. And they are so kind of full of excitement and froth and somebody on the upper third team said to me yesterday, you know, they are high on their own supply. You can see the pictures of Barnum's team are amazing. All the sort of cheering, clapping all the rest. You know, they are absolutely believing, hoping they are on their way. But the shifting pattern of support, if you like, behind Starmer is really the critical thing. Because it's not up to anti Burnham to decide if and when Keir Starmer goes. It's not up to Andy Burnham to decide if he gets away with getting to number 10 without having a leadership contest. It's not up to Andy Burnham to decide even if Starmer has concluded that he will resign, does he do it straight away? In which case, Andy Burnham, you're up and you better have some ideas and
- [06:35]
Paddy O'Connell
some plans, you better learn the fiscal rules correct.
- [06:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
Or if Andy Burnham's desire is that Keir Starmer says, okay, we'll have a transition and you can move in in September, but. But that's not in Andy Bar's gift. It's not up to him. It's up to K. Starmer. There's an unresolved debate in the party as well about whether there should be a contest. Lord Faulkner, former minister and the, you know, big figure in the Labor Party, said this morning it shouldn't be a contest, they should just get on with it. They should do it in mid July, just like hand over the key keys just like that.
- [07:04]
Paddy O'Connell
Men in a room deciding who runs Britain.
- [07:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
Men in a room deciding who runs Britain. Just for a change.
- [07:12]
Paddy O'Connell
Oh, that's a new podcast we've Just started.
- [07:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
Don't start me, buddy. I'll get myself into terrible trouble.
- [07:17]
Paddy O'Connell
In current go rounds, there are no women in the room because there was a. There was talk. Harriet Harmon floated the idea that if they did have a contest, a woman might be allowed to.
- [07:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
Because a woman never actually allowed.
- [07:28]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes, women might be allowed.
- [07:30]
Laura Kuenssberg
Would you let somebody do it? That would be nice.
- [07:31]
Paddy O'Connell
Loves being ironic. I wish I hadn't scratched this one. David Blunkett told me they can do this two ways. The shambles way or the organized way. So it's possible this weekend people are trying not to be the chaos maker, the rainmaker, because if I come out as a Burnham supporter and I'm in the Cabinet, then I've created the chaos. It's on me.
- [07:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Correct. That said, there's a different argument about having a contest is that it is vitally important to put Andy Branham through his paces because people don't know what he would actually want to do in government. And if there isn't a kind of contest of ideas in the Labour Party, then in six months time, if labor doesn't improve its fortunes in the polls of Andy Bonham's in charge and people go, well, we didn't. We never knew what he was going to do. He was never tested. And you might find somebody in Starmer's camp was rather grimly joking to me yesterday. You might find that the same people who are currently proclaiming loudly that Barnum must be installed immediately and it's all over for k sar might in 6 months time be complaining loudly. Well, of course, Andy Barnum was never tested. And if only we had had a chance to put him through his paces. So none of this is. None of this is straightforward. There are no good choices here. The public might recoil from a contest because every single political contest I've ever covered, at the beginning, the politicians say, ah, we'll be very civil. We'll do this in a gentlemanly manner. We'll have a discussion about ideas and debates and all the rest, and we won't tear lumps out of each other. What happens when they actually get into the trenches to try to win a political war is they start tearing lumps out of each other. That is politics, I'm afraid it might not be pretty, you might not like it, but that's how it's done. What I wanted to go back to, though, is your dreadful assertion that women have never got anything to do with politics. There's a very, very important woman this weekend, Victoria Starmer. So the Prime Minister is with his wife at Chequers this weekend. People who know him well have said to me, he'll just, he's just desperate to talk to her about it, to make his plan, to absorb, I think, the enormity of what is happening. And that is what he is doing this weekend. Andy Burnham is also somewhere in a secret location away with his family. So I've been kind of entertaining myself with the idea. You've got basically these two middle aged blokes both on mini breaks with their families while the fate of the country is being decided. And it's just an extraordinary place that we've got ourselves to actually as a nation. I mean, it's extraordinary. It's not just extraordinary because labor promised they wouldn't do it, but if you'd said to anyone like 10 years ago, oh yeah, Britain will have seven prime ministers in a decade, you'd have thought they were off their head. I mean it's a completely un. I hate the word unprecedented, but I was about to say it, but this is just a massive twist in what has become our policies, just become this never ending drama. Although I think it's important to say though too, you know when labor politicians castigated the Tories time and time and time again for changing leaders, there's nothing wrong with changing the leader if the next leader then does.
- [10:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, which happened.
- [10:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
It did. The Tories got rid of Theresa May, Boris Johnson then won them a massive majority.
- [10:47]
Paddy O'Connell
90 seats and 80 seats. 80 seats. Sorry, 80 seats.
- [10:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
80 seats.
- [10:52]
Paddy O'Connell
And that showed that he had the MO. That showed that he had a mandate, that showed that his get Brexit done thing would change history. In what we call the Red Wall. You hate all the wall analogies, but in seats that had never gone Tory.
- [11:07]
Laura Kuenssberg
Correct.
- [11:07]
Paddy O'Connell
So that was the public speaking. So the, the, the argument really comes down to has 77,000 people in Makerfield of whom 55% of whom voted for one man. Is that the same as the public speaking? And the Prime Minister is in the position of arguing on Friday that it's not the same as the public speaking.
- [11:27]
Laura Kuenssberg
And on Friday people were saying to me things like, well, it's, we're, it's fantastic. And actually someone said at number 10, it's fantastic that he got 21 and a half thousand votes.
- [11:37]
Paddy O'Connell
Really? Is that.
- [11:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
But, but Keir Starmer has a mandate of many million voters.
- [11:43]
Paddy O'Connell
Which is true.
- [11:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
Which is true. Which is absolutely true.
- [11:45]
Paddy O'Connell
Two years ago.
- [11:46]
Laura Kuenssberg
And one thing that Labour MPs, some Labour MPs are desperately worried about is if it gets, if he gets in and he ends up in number 10. Before too long, opposition parties can start calling for a general election.
- [11:57]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, on day one.
- [11:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, maybe on day one, although reform might do that, because it's like they like those big, bold primary colors kind of campaigning, but they're not ready for a general election. The Conservatives don't want a general election now because they're not ready for a general election either. And they believe that Kemi badenock's sort of on a. On a bit of an upswing. But they wouldn't want a general election now when they're still my. When they're still miles behind. But look, we'll see. I mean, I mean, Labor MP MPs would not want there to be a general.
- [12:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, because nearly 70% of the public did not vote Labor.
- [12:29]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
Correct.
- [12:29]
Paddy O'Connell
The big massive majority of 7,000 MPs was gained on 30 and change. 30% and change.
- [12:36]
Chris Mason
That's right.
- [12:36]
Laura Kuenssberg
I mean, it was that coalition that was stretched so far because they just wanted to be sure that they won. So they did this sort of quite. They traveled light, didn't have much in the manifesto, ruled out all sorts of things because they wanted to get literally as many bums on seats as possible in Parliament. The. There's a retrospective debate about whether they should have accepted that they'd have had a smaller majority but had a much more compelling program and had the balls to say we'll put up some taxes or something like that. But there's, you know, there's no point in having that debate now. That is all in the rear view mirror. But it's still extraordinary to me the notion that somebody can have a huge majority in 2024 and less than two years later be on the verge of getting their P45. I mean, it's just an extraordinary thing. I should say that. Look, none of this is certain. I, I should say I was going
- [13:25]
Paddy O'Connell
to ask, have I. Have we exhausted your WhatsApp messages?
- [13:29]
Laura Kuenssberg
No, because, I mean, I'm only just beginning, but I know we have other things.
- [13:32]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, no, no, I think just because I, I had not heard that Yvette Cooper. I have not heard a journalist of your standing say, Yvette Cooper said go.
- [13:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yvette Cooper has said. I don't know the exact words, but you've said that she has indicated. She is another person who has indicated to the Prime Minister that in her view he should set out a departure. And I just, just to add to that, I think you have to kind of understand a bit also about how these conversations take place. So sometimes these are sort of reported in a way, like somebody marched in, they banged the desk and they said, you have to leave. You know, these are all people who've worked together for years. It's kind of not really the way it plays out. I think the conversations are more like, you know, are you really sure that you would want to fight this? Or the way another one is explained to me is like, look, basically Ker is sort of leading the conversation in a kind of, well, what do you think is realistic? What should I do? What would you do? You know, that kind of thing. But I think here is the driving thing. Kemer believed that he could be Andy Barnum. It seems to me, until really quite recently, most people in the Labour Party think that's nuts, right? We don't know, because there might never be a contest. There could have been a contest. We're in a parallel world, who knows? But most people in the Labour Party think that it's nuts, as one government source said to me. And therefore, what you've seen is previously loyal ministers who have been worried, in the words of one cabinet source, about him humiliating himself. And that's the way it was expressed to me by one cabinet source, is, look, we. We wouldn't want the Prime Minister to humiliate himself by running in a contest and being beaten and potentially being beaten very badly. Now, look, some people in Starmer's team say, look, actually, most of the members think he should stay. You know, they quote different bits of polling at you. They'll say, oh, we're only six points behind in the polls. But the consensus view in the Labour Party is that Starmer would not be anti Barnum, and therefore what we've seen in the last, since Thursday night, and I think that sped up in the second half of yesterday, is people essentially saying, don't put yourself through it.
- [15:40]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
Right.
- [15:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Because that's very important from precedent. Reasons newscasters wondering, how have we got here? Margaret Thatcher called in the members of her cabinet and asked what. What they thought.
- [15:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [15:50]
Paddy O'Connell
And on balance, they said, it's over.
- [15:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [15:53]
Paddy O'Connell
And we now know that Boris Johnson wanted to stay.
- [15:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [15:56]
Paddy O'Connell
And so what happened? He didn't really ask them, they just started resigning. And what David Blunkett said to me was that that's a shambles that he wants the party to avoid.
- [16:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [16:07]
Paddy O'Connell
So once you start getting to resignations, he has to go anyway, because under our system, the Prime Minister has to command the confidence of the House of Commons and if he can't make a government, he wouldn't win the confidence of the House of Commons. So that's the sort of awful nightmare facing them all.
- [16:20]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's right. And if Starmer actually decides that he will fight it, which is still possible, Nothing is certain. Although I'm explaining the, you know, the way the mood seems to me to have move Friday and Saturday afternoon. If he were to decide to try and fight, what I expect would happen then is you would get Andy Burnham supporters either publishing or going in with a list of well over 100 MPS who would back them. I think in that situation, you might then see resignations start to begin so that publicly the government starts to kind of fall apart in front of our eyes. And I think people want to. People want to avoid that. I think they don't want to have that kind of the Jenga Tower just falling down. Far better to see something kind of orderly. But, you know, in politics, what is, you know, there's nothing orderly about a Prime minister leaving office. However you look at it like you might be able to avoid a sort of car crash where you have a couple of days of really embarrassing things with people coming out saying ever more terrible things about Keir Starmer in a personal, mean and nasty way. But a change of prime minister is such a huge thing. What does that say to our allies around the world? That we look less stable than we pretend to be or claim to be? What does it say to the financial markets? They don't know who the next Chancellor might be. The country's got a lot of debt. What effect does that have on the price of borrowing? Like it or not, this country owes a lot for lot of money to the financial markets that has to be paid back. And that's a big cost to taxpayers, a big cost to the country. What does it say also to people in various different, you know, whether you're in the health Service or whether you're in Defense or whether you're working in the Department for Work and Pensions, you have a kind of a breach, a break in the progress of decision making. You know, every week the government's meant to be making thousands and thousands of decisions. If you change the person at the top, they might come in then with a whole load of new ministers. Everything stops for a while. You know, we know in this country already, people look at government and think, oh, my God, it doesn't work.
- [18:20]
Paddy O'Connell
So I've been speaking to an Italian columnist because George Meloni's been in office longer than Theresa May, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson. She's done three years, 240 odd days. And we used to laugh at the Italians for changing their Prime Minister. And this is Beppi Sevignini telling me how he thinks we've caught the
- [18:41]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
what
- [18:41]
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- [19:04]
Paddy O'Connell
Italian habit.
- [19:05]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
You're becoming Italian and we're becoming British. We're well known all over the world to be excitable, to change things, to change our mind, to change our prime ministers. And now you do that. So basically you went the Italian way, we went the British way. So welcome.
- [19:20]
Paddy O'Connell
Is it a habit or is it emotion?
- [19:22]
Italian Columnist Beppi Sevignini
I lived in Britain in the 80s and in the 90s and I've been coming sort of back and forth and I notice how progressively you become more emotional. It looks to me, you know, you're playing the World cup, it's the same thing. You win a game and the national mood is so exciting that you think you're almost gonna win the World cup again after 60 years. Right? It doesn't work like that. Take your time, relax, be cool and wait because you can pick someone from the bench. I think is what's happening now. The Labour Party is thinking maybe Starmer is not Harry Kane. We should come up with something better and try to score. As a friend of Britain, I hope you do score. And by the way, I hope you win the World Cup.
- [20:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
I love that.
- [20:09]
Paddy O'Connell
I don't think we've got an answer either as to whether or not this is going to be the way it continues. Because if you go to the next general election, what do you say to the public about seven prime ministers in 10 years? Do you say that's good? I'm. Hello, will you vote for me? Because I think we should have a new Prime Minister every year for the next five years. Or do you say, guys, guys, I think we've got to understand something really big happened, probably Brexit. We could probably argue it was post Brexit ripples. We did a very big thing. The system had to adjust. So vote for me because I'm going to help the system adjust.
- [20:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, but voters are volatile now, you see. So this is a two way street, isn't it? Voters are willing to move much more willing to move around and so were prime ministers and which was first, who knows. But it's a, it's a mirror. You know, this is also happening because voters don't vote in the ways where they used to, where reliably political parties used to think, oh, well, there are voters in the northwest of England, said the Labour Party, or there are voters in the southeast of England, felt the Conservatives. And I think something that's not been discussed that much yet is Andy Barnum is to a lot of people, they know who he is. Right. He's famous, he's well known, he has personal popularity, which most politicians don't.
- [21:19]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right.
- [21:20]
Laura Kuenssberg
However, his whole shtick about putting the north of England and the people of Makerfield at the heart of every decision that he makes and he talks about Makerfield as a kind of proxy for all the towns and villages around the country that have been left behind, is the kind of shtick that he goes with. There are going to be a lot of voters that don't like that. They're going to be voters potentially, particularly in the south of England, maybe in other parts of the country, think, well, hang on a minute, why is the northwest more important than everybody else? Why is my life being seen through the prism of communities in the northwest of England with whom I've got not very much in common? So there is, there's risk all around. But I think the fundamental thing to say to newscasters this week is the Labour Party has now decisively concluded that the risks around replacing Keir Starmer are smaller than the risk of allowing him to stay. And that's where we've got to. And that means, in all likelihood there is going to be another Prime Minister.
- [22:24]
Paddy O'Connell
And the timetable of the next few days would mean that the language is going to have to start changing from people around Keir Starmer. If, if we're, if we're going to sort of roll the pitch.
- [22:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Paddy O'Connell
A phrase we don't often use, and I'm the one who's now used it. If we're going to prepare people for the fact that the Prime Minister's changing his thinking, what kind of person says what when? Because if I go around the Cabinet, I'm told that Ed Miliband and Shabana Mahmood have already advised him to go.
- [22:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, they did some time ago.
- [22:53]
Paddy O'Connell
Right, so. So who, who is there in the Cabinet who comes onto a microphone and says what words? That will be a clue.
- [23:01]
Laura Kuenssberg
So Peter Kyle, the Business Secretary, is joining us on TV tomorrow morning. I don't, I don't know what he's going to say, I mean, it might be quite surreal, Right. And I. And I don't know yet what politicians are popping up in studios tomorrow. How are they going to handle this? But I tell you, I will be listening very, very, very, very carefully. And I do believe that there will be a change in their language which we can pour over tomorrow from what the Prime Minister was saying on Friday,
- [23:29]
Paddy O'Connell
which is I'm going to run, which
- [23:31]
Laura Kuenssberg
is I'm going to fight. And of course, if there's a contest, there is no contest. There is no contest. If there's a contest, I will run. But there is no contest. I mean, it's like, you know, there's a giant sort of big bird standing behind you with a big sign saying, contest, Contest. Got it. There is no contest. Let me tell. I mean, he couldn't say anything else. Right. Of course, the Prime Minister, Prime Ministers, since Time Memorial have to sometimes say things that make them sound either like they are completely delusional or that they are, you know, not cognizant of some quite basic facts. But, yeah, technically there is still not a contest. Except a man called Andy Barnum stood on stage and said to the nation, I am coming for your job.
- [24:09]
Paddy O'Connell
Also, he has said, I will join a contest. So he has. He is on the record joining a contest.
- [24:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
He has, but he wouldn't trigger it. So that's the thing. But look, I would say this again. Look, nothing is certain and of course I'm going to look like a prize plum next week if actually Chris Dweller comes out and says, oh, I'm going to fight, or Andy Burnham says it says, oh, actually I don't want the job after all. Look, other things could still happen. But my impression is we're talking at 2:30 on Saturday is that events really might move quite quickly towards some form of transition, really, in the next coming days. So I am foolishly putting my neck on the line. If we're wrong, I will be delighted to say next week, of course, we were wrong. With transparency, you put your neck on the line and sometimes it gets chopped off. But, you know, that is my impression of. Based on my conversations with different sources in the last, you know, 48 hours and probably in the last 20 years. You know, these are all kind of. They're. That's where I. That's where I think we are heading for.
- [25:07]
Paddy O'Connell
And I think in common with other newscasters, I want to know where you think we're also, I very interested in the fact that Lady Victoria and Sakir are gathered are together at check.
- [25:18]
Laura Kuenssberg
At checkers.
- [25:19]
Paddy O'Connell
So you've got the sense of the history there. You've got the sense of the moment the personal meets the public and that.
- [25:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's right.
- [25:25]
Paddy O'Connell
And David Blunkett said to me, it's a decision he has to take with Lady Victoria.
- [25:29]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [25:29]
Paddy O'Connell
And even mentioning Victoria's name in public is a push towards the exit door, really, isn't it?
- [25:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
It is, because I think in the end, politics is a rough old business. But these are also. They're human beings, you know, politicians. And I'd admire people who go into politics because they give up an awful lot. Yes, they. If you get to the top, you get huge power, you have huge privilege, you have huge influence, and all those things that you might have craved if you are, you know, cravenly ambitious from a young age and wanted to be the Prime Minister or the king of the. As Boris Johnson wanted to be when he was a kid. But they also sacrifice an awful lot. They sacrifice privacy, they sacrifice anything like a good night's sleep. They work demonic hours. They're under huge pressure all the time. They're under intense scrutiny. They're pilloried by their colleagues all the time. They get a hard time from journalists, their friends, their friends fall out with their friends, their friends turn on them. And it is a tough old game. And that's why often you find in the end, it ends up being the conversations with their partners that are the ones that need to be had at the end. But it's. It's lonely at the top. I mean, it, it.
- [26:40]
Paddy O'Connell
It.
- [26:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
I've. I've seen them come and go and come and go, and the removal vans arrive. It is lonely and tough. And I don't feel. You know, I don't. Not saying newscasters should feel sorry for politicians, but they're human beings, you know, and imagine any of us, if you had a job that you had worked so hard for for years and years and years, and you get there finally, and then it's really, really difficult. And then one by one, your colleagues, your workmates come out and say, actually, you're a bit rubbish. I don't think you're very good. Well, I don't think you're very good. Oh, I don't think you're very good. In a longer and longer list of people comes along saying, I think you're really bad. You're gonna have to go. And then in the end, even some of your most loyal colleagues say, think it's time. I think most of us would just want to hide under the duvet, right, with a giant bag of crisps. And he has to tell the country what he's gonna do, too, and do it all in front of the cameras.
- [27:30]
Paddy O'Connell
I think it is very important perspective. I think we do, all of us have argued for decency. And also there's another chilling part, listening to what you're saying, which is, Andy Burnham, be careful what you wish for.
- [27:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Paddy O'Connell
At this time, there's no money, there's no unity in the Labour Party, and you want the top job, apparently, right?
- [27:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
And look, I think if he does get in, which he obviously wants and is highly likely, I was talking to somebody in a senior position in Politics this morning and they were sort of suggesting it would be a massive, like, thought experiment on the country. So Keir Starmer never promised to be fun and happy and make people feel good and go and, like, be pictured, like, hugging grannies and drinking pints and being with the people. But he did tell people he would be competent and capable and he would get things done. And that hasn't come to pass at all in the way that he hoped. Andy Burnham, however, we know he's good at the first bit. People know him by his first name. He's very personal, he's very affable. People like getting their selfies. He's got a great kind of charisma about him, and that's a talent for a politician and he's a very instinctive politician. We've got no idea if he's going to have the second bit, being capable, competent, all the rest. If you speak to people who worked with him in government when he was Culture Secretary, Health Secretary, Chief Secretary to the treasury, back under the governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, he gets pretty mixed reviews, I've got to say. We know he's got more experience now, having been the Mayor of Greater Manchester, but what another source said to me yesterday is, look, he's going to have to translate that instinct for being a very natural politician and making people feel good, and I'm paraphrasing very quickly, to having a serious, disciplined team that's actually ready to get things done and to make the government competent. But there's a sort of thought experiment, if you like, just to refer back to the conversation that I was having with someone this morning, is if things are really difficult and the government doesn't really do a very effective job and things continue to go wrong, but you have a leader who can make people feel more cheerful, does that change things? Is that better? Maybe it is. On the other Hand, maybe the bomber jacket and the gazelles after five minutes, when things are just as hard and the government's just as ineffective. Actually, any of that sizzle and excitement that you saw at the Ashton Football Club yesterday, that's going to fly away.
- [30:06]
Paddy O'Connell
Which is welcome to this weekend. That's the decision. That's the energy in the party, isn't it? Those are the crossroads that it's facing and it's massive. Well, look, I feel we've been at this longer than the first half of a football game, which is.
- [30:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
I know, but I could talk about this all day. You're not allowed to talk about this all day. You know that. I could talk about it all week.
- [30:27]
Paddy O'Connell
Okay, well, I mean, is there anything you haven't said that you must say before we close down the earbuds?
- [30:31]
Laura Kuenssberg
No, but we have an email from our newscaster which is very important. Some years ago, Philip says, some years ago, the Conservative Party chose a charismatic and popular mayor of London to be their Prime Minister. His name was Boris Johnson. Have we learned nothing? The choice of Prime Minister should not be based on personality, but someone who has the ability to lead a country through very difficult times. Andy Barnum has a lot to prove. I fear we're repeating the same mistakes of the past.
- [30:56]
Paddy O'Connell
Philip, just not to argue with you, because that would bring back Catgate.
- [31:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, no.
- [31:01]
Paddy O'Connell
Which I won't do.
- [31:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
But remember, Paddy o' Connell is rude about felines. He doesn't like them. He prefers dogs.
- [31:10]
Paddy O'Connell
Once I made a mistake and I've corrected the record, I've corrected the record.
- [31:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
Look, let's be transparent. We both prefer dogs.
- [31:17]
Paddy O'Connell
Here's Philip. Philip, what I want to say to you is that as we mentioned earlier, when they chose Boris Johnson, he took Theresa May's weakened position in government and he won an 80 seat majority. So when you say, have we learned nothing? You could argue that both ways because obviously it didn't end well. The Boris Johnson project.
- [31:36]
Laura Kuenssberg
No, but we don't know what would have happened if it hadn't been a pandemic and all of those kinds of things. And yeah, there was someone else in the Labour Party was saying that to me. Look, this and this. They were kind of a bit cross because they think this idea that changing the leader is always a disaster actually is wrongheaded because the circumstances are always different. However, I want to read out Andy Wilson's email because he said, I can't wait for Laura to ask this question once more this weekend on newscast. And now she can give the answer. Is it makerfield or breakerfield?
- [32:01]
Paddy O'Connell
It's Makerfield for Andy Burnham. Okay, that's the end. Peter, car's on your sofa.
- [32:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
Car's on the program. And we're have three backbenchers on our panel tomorrow, all in different positions. So someone who wants wed's treating and definitely wants a contest, someone who wants Andy Barnum as soon as possible and somebody who thinks that Keir Starmer should actually be allowed to stay. So we'll have three politicians fighting it out. We're also going to hear from Simon Case, the former cabinet secretary, about what it's like when there's a transition in the government because that's, you know, those big questions about whether or not it's good for the country to keep changing leaders. And we're talking to a few other people. It's going to be a busy, busy show.
- [32:38]
Paddy O'Connell
Great. So we're doing the Sunday scoops at all Revealed. We are also talking to Dame Mary Beard about this of classical personal tragedy that comes out this eternal fight for power, the rivalries. The Romans were always afraid of the enemy from the north.
- [32:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [32:55]
Paddy O'Connell
And we're talking about the heat wave and the solstice falls during our programs at 9:24.
- [32:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, does it?
- [33:00]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes, the actual moment. Oh, the astronomical.
- [33:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
What does that mean?
- [33:05]
Paddy O'Connell
It means a great deal. But we're right at the end. It means it's the long, the longest time our hemisphere is exposed to the sun. It's the longest day. But it means a very great deal, Laura.
- [33:17]
Laura Kuenssberg
Okay, well, you can explain it to me in more detail tomorrow.
- [33:20]
Paddy O'Connell
So to you listening, we say thank you very much and goodbye.
- [33:23]
Laura Kuenssberg
Goodbye, Newscast. Newscast from the BBC.
- [33:27]
Chris Mason
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason. Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-2394 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.
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