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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
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- [00:36]
Alex Canceroitz
Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
Paddy, you're wearing a rather lovely tie.
- [01:15]
Paddy O'Connell
I put a tie on because Kemi Badenot came into the studio and you're always very well dressed and I thought I should, for a party leader, should dress up. Oh, now, I've had spies who watched your program tell me that you stolen one of my questions and put it to the leader of the opposition like a terrible magpie. Let's have a listen.
- [01:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
Who would you support? So Liz Truss paid everybody's energy bill when there was the last energy shock around the war in Ukraine, costing tens of billions to the taxpayer. Who would get support if you were in? I did. It's a shiny. Well, it's a great phrase all the time.
- [01:48]
Paddy O'Connell
I use it about you. The argument is shifting this time, isn't it? You've raised this target. I think there's going to be targeted. It's not going to be blanket, isn't it?
- [01:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
Correct. And we've been talking about that for, actually for ages, for about three weeks since this first reared its head. The whole question of the war in the Middle east leading to a big price in a big increase in the price of oil, which sooner or later, sadly, the reality is it's probably going to lead to much higher energy bills for people here at home. So the political debate in this country is rather hot and heavy around what to do about the cost of energy, how to produce it, where it should come from and whether or not this country would ever be able to produce enough of its own.
- [02:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Welcome to Sunday's newscast, newscast, newscast from
- [02:28]
Henry Bonsu
the BBC Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.
- [02:32]
Kemi Badenoch
I would the tattletail in the closet.
- [02:33]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that daddy has to sometimes use strong language Next time
- [02:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
in mosque I feel dulu with no salulu. Take me down to Downing Street.
- [02:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Let's go have a tour.
- [02:46]
Henry Bonsu
Blimey.
- [02:47]
Paddy O'Connell
Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.
- [02:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's Laura in the studio and hello,
- [02:50]
Henry Bonsu
it's Henry at home.
- [02:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, Henry.
- [02:52]
Henry Bonsu
Hi, how you doing?
- [02:53]
Laura Kuenssberg
All right, thank you. Now, before we get stuck in to the debate about energy, which is getting quite hot and fractious, I think, in Westminster. It certainly was on the TV this morning. We wanted to say thank you very much for all your messages about our exclusive interview yesterday with Josh Simons, the government minister who had to quit. He said, having been naive when he did what appears now to have been a very strange thing when he was the head of a think tank, he asked a lobbying firm to look into the origins of a news story about the think tank he worked at having failed to declare financial donations properly.
- [03:32]
Paddy O'Connell
So Paul Holden was mentioned. His response to the interview is that his reporting on Labour together and Morgan McSweeney was entirely factually accurate and in the public interest. This is something that he's told us
- [03:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
and Paul Holden was one of the people who had had information that led to the reporting about these undeclared donations. He said that the firm was hired to undermine his reporting. As you said yesterday, Mr. Hold, Holden believes APCO, which were the lobbying firm, were hired to investigate me in order to produce materials that would proactively undermine my factually accurate public interest reporting. Simons may claim he never intended for APCO to investigate me, but he did refer it on to others after receiving it.
- [04:17]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. Also, we've never seen any evidence at the BBC that the reporting came from a hack of the Electoral Commission. So that's all post the story starting. But when it started, it still boiled down to two or three central facts which remain on the public record. Labor Together had a massive undeclared £730,000. So do we move on now to the Energy tramash?
- [04:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think we should, but I think we should also say it was really interesting, I thought, to hear Simons talk about not just what had happened and his regrets and feeling naive, but also to talk about what he had done when he was working at Meta, because the issue of social media addiction, which was found to be something that exists by an American court this week, was something that he had, he claimed, warned about when he was working for one of the big tech platforms. So it's really interesting and it's still in your feeds if you want to go back and have a listen.
- [05:12]
Paddy O'Connell
So, Henry, we go to the appearance of the Leader of the Opposition, Kemi Badenoch on Laura's television and on Radio 4 and other places saying drill, baby,
- [05:22]
Henry Bonsu
drill, which is now her well established position. But I think we should not just walk past how significant it is that we have and have had for a bit of time. But this crisis is making it clearer than ever. Such a clear disagreement across the political spectrum, including between Labour and the Conservatives on energy policy in a way which we didn't have for quite some time. I mean, there's an argument, perhaps it's an over simple argument, but there's an argument that essentially the Conservative governments more or less continued the policy established by Ed Miliband when he was Energy Secretary the first time round under Gordon Brown when they were in government. And of course it was Theresa May who legislated for the government to hit net zero by 2050, something that the conservatives still support. Net zero, that is. However, there is clearly much more daylight between Labour and the Conservatives and then also of course, the other parties which make up our multi party politics on energy policy than there has been for a very long time. And I think this crisis is drawing that in very stark detail.
- [06:27]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think it is. And I also think this is going to be the tram lines of a very, very major argument that's going to go on at Westminster for months and months and months and months. I think. Because if you think about the context of what's happening in the war, it seems clear even if it were to end tomorrow, there's going to be an impact on energy production for quite some time. And therefore I think politicians are going to keep coming back to this, partly because it's interesting, Henry, as you say, that they don't agree. So there's a kind of intense clash that' interesting to unpick. But also because this is such an issue in people's everyday lives and not all the political barneys that there are actually have that truth at the heart of it. Everybody's got to pay their energy bill one way or another. Everybody is worried if energy prices go up and it could be something that happens in a very big way. And that's even before we start talking about, you know, jobs in the North Sea or jobs in renewable industries. And you've got one of the challenger parties, if you want to call them that, way ahead in the polls, reform, or wanting to make this a huge issue too. They've been trying to make it a big issue for ages. And of course, who's the other challenger? Big entrant to politics at the moment, the Greens. They want it to be a big issue as well. So you've got the war, you've got the reality of high energy bills for millions of ordinary people coming down the track. And you've also got the two challengers at either side of the political spectrum both wanting to make this an issue. So if you put that all together, you get a big fat argument. And this is what Kemi Badenoch was saying this morning.
- [07:53]
Paddy O'Connell
Drill, baby, drill. Is that your message?
- [07:56]
Kemi Badenoch
Yes, absolutely. I do think that we need to drill our own oil and gas in the North Sea. We are importing 40% of our gas from Norway, who are drilling in the very same basin. We're importing oil from places much further afield, dirtier oil, rather than doing it more cleanly at home. We're losing so many jobs, about 1,000 jobs a month being lost in the North Sea oil industry, particularly impacting Scotland. But the whole country, and this is terrible for our financial security, for our energy security, we should drill our own
- [08:29]
Paddy O'Connell
oil and gas because Claire Coutinho, your Shadow Secretary for Energy, said on BBC Breakfast, it wouldn't necessarily bring energy down, energy bills down. Can you tell our listeners, would you be able to bring down their bills by drilling, baby, drilling.
- [08:44]
Kemi Badenoch
So indirectly, yes.
- [08:46]
Laura Kuenssberg
We already have a cheap.
- [08:49]
Kemi Badenoch
We have a plan to bring back the cheap power plan.
- [08:52]
Paddy O'Connell
What you do is you get the
- [08:54]
Kemi Badenoch
taxes from it you can use to subsidize bills, which is what the government is doing.
- [08:57]
Laura Kuenssberg
But your Shadow Energy Secretary, Claire Coutinho, who was with us a couple of weeks ago, she said on the record, it wouldn't necessarily save very much money. She said that when she was in government.
- [09:09]
Kemi Badenoch
Directly. Directly, but indirectly, yes, it does, because you can use the money from there to subsidise. But more importantly, jobs are disappearing. We are losing about a thousand jobs a month.
- [09:20]
Laura Kuenssberg
Gosh, we're a bossy pair, aren't we, Henry?
- [09:22]
Paddy O'Connell
The policy difference is where you want us to look. It may not be quite clear how soon the Conservatives can get any gas out of the basin or what it'll do to bills. But you're telling us, look how the parties now have a chasm between them on this matter.
- [09:37]
Henry Bonsu
Well, what's quite interesting, I think, is that actually both Labour and the Conservatives core argument is that each other is being unnecessarily ideological. So if you take Kemi Badenoch's argument, it is that the government, the Labour Party, are putting green ideology before the willingness to do whatever that they possibly can to potentially bring bills down, even indirectly, as she acknowledged there. And, you know, she is arguing that, of course, you ought to deploy all the resources that are potentially at your disposal in a moment of crisis such as this. The argument of the government is that, given Kemi Badenoch acknowledges that this would not have a direct impact on bills, she is being ideological in her determination to drill, rather than acknowledging the energy security benefits which come from clean power and renewable power. So I think, you know, that is kind of the core of the debate here. I mean, it's clear that it is. By the way, it seems pretty clear at this point. I mean, let's see how bad the crisis gets. But it seems pretty clear this is a debate which is not going to be resolved this side of a general election in Kemi Badenoch's favour. Which is to say, I think the government has committed. I think perhaps we discussed this last week. There was a moment not so long ago when there was a bit of a wobble in government about the energy policy of Ed Miliband, which is the energy policy of this government. But that has been resolved in Ed Miliban's favour. And I do not think this government is going to grant new licenses for drilling in the North Sea, which, after all, is what they committed to in the general election campaign, where they won the general election.
- [11:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's interesting, though, I thought there was a slightly tonal difference between what Bridget Phillipson said and what Ed Middleman would. So just. Just a tiny hint of degree in her kind of enthusiasm for saying, well, of course the North Sea is still important. Which, yes, Edmillaband would also say, yes, the North Sea is still important and it will be for some time. But I did just think there was a tiny difference in her attitude to that. What's also true, step out of the big political fandango for a while, is that if you talk to lots of experts in this industry or people in the business, like the boss of Centrica, one of the biggest energy companies in the world, who told us last week, yes, this is a moment to go full steam ahead on renewables. But. But yes, it's also a moment to use everything you've got so the parties are Being ideological. But actually at a time like this, maybe some experts say actually you should crack on with it all. What we were also trying to push Bridget Phillipson on the this morning is the state of the government's emergency planning. Now we are do not newscasters want to panic anyone at all? It's important to know people like the aa, the RAC say there are no shortages at the moment. This is, you can go about your business as normal. You shouldn't be like rushing to the forecourt to go and fill up. However, you've got reputable big names like ASDA and the boss of BP saying there could be shortages. So we were trying to press Bridget Phillipson on what the government would do in that case. She was incredibly tight lipped, but this is what she had to say about the people who'd get help if there's a big rise in bills later in the year.
- [12:55]
Bridget Phillipson
We will of course always act to protect not just the British national interest, but British consumers here at home. You'll see that in the approach that we've taken around energy bills. Lots of measures that are coming in from next week that are going to make a big difference to people. I know that the cost of living pressures that families are experiencing are still tough and that's why the lifting of the awful two child limit takes effect. That will put money back into people's pockets. All of the measures that we're bringing in that I'm introducing around free breakfast clubs, expanding free school meals, the fact that energy costs will continue to be capped, that should all provide reassurance to the public that we as a government are on the side of the public. We will do what is necessary to make sure that people are supported whatever happens.
- [13:37]
Henry Bonsu
I mean, look, I think this is another week where we've had government ministers on your programs kind of acknowledging sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly, that they have no real influence over the trajectory of a conflict which is turning into a global crisis, including for the uk. And I think that's a very uneasy obviously position for government ministers to find themselves in. There is all sorts of planning going on, we're told in the treasury in particular about what they would do and what the government might have to do in different scenarios. But often when parts of government are contingency planning for different scenarios, they have some ability to shape what scenario transpires. And I think, you know, it's not really overdoing it to say that this government has almost no influence over what scenario transpires here.
- [14:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think that's absolutely right. And While Keir Starmer thinks he might be getting some political credit for staying out of the war in its offensive nature as not being a close ally, marching alongside the US Metaphorically, that means he's got not very much influence over what happens next. That means we're in that kind of position where our politicians here are arguing about the consequences of the conflict in the Middle East. They're not arguing about what should actually happen next when it comes to the consequences of the conflict in the Middle East. We had Zia Yousef, reform spokesperson for Home affairs, this morning on the program, too. Their policy is to get rid of VAT on energy bills. And also they, like the Conservatives, would not raise fuel duty, which is projected to grow up in September.
- [15:27]
Paddy O'Connell
And then let's talk about the Greens. Zach Polanski wants a hike in taxes on capital gains and a tightening of an existing tax on energy firm profits to support houses if energy bills went up. So, back to your point, Henry. We are seeing this. I mean, we've always said it's the nhs, the nhs, the nhs. If you want to understand British politics, but actually do, do I take your lead and say energy, energy, energy, energy
- [15:57]
Henry Bonsu
in and of itself is perhaps a fairly sort of niche issue, or has typically been seen as that, probably wrongly, by British politics. But energy now is the cost of living and energy is the economy. I mean, I think we've said this before as well, and I'm sorry we're repeating ourselves, but I suspect, or I'm repeating myself, but I suspect I will again and again because this is likely to be the story of the coming weeks and months. Keir Starmer at the start of this year wanted to talk relentlessly about the cost of living. Now that wasn't just because he was told by focus groups and so on, that that was the voters first priority and first in their minds. It's also because the government was beginning to dare to hope that the cost of living would start to improve in 2026. And I think you can't overdo what a blow it is for the government that they now find themselves talking about the cost of living, but not because it is starting to turn a corner, but because it is their fear and probably the reality that there's going to be a rocky period ahead for many people as a result of what is going on in the Middle East.
- [17:03]
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- [18:06]
Paddy O'Connell
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- [18:09]
Henry Bonsu
Cool Stuff Daily takes a look at
- [18:11]
Paddy O'Connell
everything from mining in space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is, well, basically changing everything.
- [18:19]
Henry Bonsu
It's all the cool stuff you didn't know you needed to know. Join us for Cool Stuff Daily as
- [18:24]
Paddy O'Connell
we take a quick look at science, tech and the Wait. What stories that make you sound way smarter at dinner. Subscribe to Cool Stuff Daily now because the future's happening fast and it's way too fun to miss.
- [18:38]
Alex Canceroitz
Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
Cox Internet, the Tresintas Megas tiene las velocidades rapidas e com fiables perfecto para streaming e gaming e travajar des casa. De dos pere Unlimited guaranteed depression including. And the Lib Dems of course have got a plan for this too. Davy for the Lib Dem says that the government should be really generous is his phrase. He said there needs to be some targeting of help for energy bills, but there are lots of people on low and middle incomes who just wouldn't be able to afford a big increase in bills, reminding us there that the government has hinted so far that people who rely on benefits will be those to get help with energy bills. They haven't yet been forthcoming about people who don't live on benefits. They don't need benefits, but they just might really struggle with a huge increase in energy. But the Lib Dems say that there should be more support than the government is already promising.
- [20:23]
Paddy O'Connell
And that's interesting, because that's about my household. Your household, the newscasters, household bills. But I was reading in the weekend papers, there's another bill which is the government debt, and not only that, it's Rachel Reeves's headroom. If she's got to pay more for government borrowing, and if she's got to pay some million people's gas bills, not all million people's gas bill, then the big part of her budget, which was she was protecting as headroom, is halved or evaporates. So, Henry, it's all connected to Rachel Reeves's position as Chancellor?
- [21:00]
Henry Bonsu
Yeah, absolutely. And who knows where the conversation will be by the time she delivers her next budget in the autumn, if indeed she does deliver her next budget in the autumn. Because you do encounter the occasional politician in the Labour Party, including quite senior people, government ministers and so on, who wonder whether after the local elections, Keir Starmer might change his chancellor. But just assume that it's Rachel Reeves. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure she is already worrying, fretting about what the implications of this will be for her budget. I think that's one reason why last week, or was it still just about this week, Rachel Reeves sort of set out in advance the principles that she would apply to any bailout of households when they come to pay their energy bills and make clear that it would be targeted in a fairly limited way. I think that is, you know, that is, that will go down fine with late, that did go down fine with Labour mps, and I'm sure many voters will instinctively be in the same place until she then identifies as, and when the time comes, what the threshold actually is. And, you know, this government, like others, has learned that when you apply a threshold, there are lots of boundary cases that fall on the wrong side of the boundary where people think they should be on the other side. And I think that will be a big political divide and a big political argument if and when the moment for that bailout comes.
- [22:30]
Laura Kuenssberg
And don't forget, Keir Summer has not got a great track record for being able to stick to things that he tells his party he needs to do. If they are unpopular and if we get to the autumn and your average Joe's energy bill is likely to go up by 500 quid, for example, as some estimates suggest it might do. The idea that a Labor chancellor and an unpopular labor government is going to say to most people, sorry, we're not going to help you at all, that seems very, very politically challenging. But we will see. And it's a long way off. What we do know though is if we look behind us, that the lessons from history show that energy crises actually can do for politicians. Paddy, you've been looking back in time.
- [23:12]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes. So we asked Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's Jeremy, to tell us about the 1970s, which is when, funnily enough, it was. Saudi Arabia then talked about how it could use its oil weapon against the West. So at the time, the spokesman for the Saudis was Sheikh Yamani, one of the most powerful, well known people in the world. And he spoke bluntly and honestly about the fact that if the war that Israel was pursuing was supported increasingly by the west and by the United States, Saudi could just turn off the oil.
- [23:46]
Alex Canceroitz
I think what we have as an oil weapon is far more greater than what we did. What we did is nothing at all. I think we can cut down production to, let's say, 20%.
- [24:00]
Laura Kuenssberg
You think Europe or Japan or the
- [24:03]
Alex Canceroitz
United States can survive with this? Your whole economy will definitely collapse all of the sudden.
- [24:09]
Henry Bonsu
I mean, of course the other comparison that you occasionally hear people make to the 1970s is that during energy shocks and during periods of rising prices, governments lose elections, incumbent governments. And that's a parallel from the 1970s, which will be weighing heavily on governments not just in the UK but around the world. And it's also a parallel that you can probably just draw to the last few years. I mean, we know in 2024, when of course the Conservatives lost office here, there were all sorts of incumbent governments around the world in that period of inflation, which had followed Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine, who also lost election, lost re election. And you know, that is certainly one of the many anxieties throbbing in the minds of people in the government here.
- [24:55]
Paddy O'Connell
And I don't want to be stealing Amerikast's thunder, but Donald Trump was elected in part on a promise to give $2 gasoline and it's already above 3 anyway. Three and a half, I think. So you've got a situation where the pump in the United States is really going to be having a massive influence. And it's been said bluntly that that's why he's been posting to bring the oil price down. He wants to get it down but he hasn't got control of the straight of Hormuz. So it goes back up again after he's posted to make it go down again.
- [25:31]
Laura Kuenssberg
And in the 1970s there wasn't politicians jumping on social media to do things to try to get the world to dance to their tune. But that is the world that we live in now.
- [25:41]
Paddy O'Connell
How do you think about my audition there for americast? Do you think that was. It was good. Up again, down again. Is that. Is that going to get me on AmericasT?
- [25:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think they might get back to you.
- [25:50]
Paddy O'Connell
That sounds like no to me. Henry. Do we have anything to look forward to in the world?
- [25:57]
Henry Bonsu
I mean, look forward to sounds positive. And the answer to that is probably no. I mean, this week Parliament is in recess, but I think the Labour Party is launching its local elections campaign. Well, I mean, there's obviously local elections in England, but also national elections in Scotland and Wales.
- [26:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [26:16]
Henry Bonsu
And we have talked for so long about what a crucial set of elections these are for Sir Keir Starmer. I think they are made very slightly less crucial by the international situation, putting them into perspective and also giving Sir Keir Starmer an opportunity to display leadership on the global stage, which he believes he's done. And his team belief has gone down pretty well with the country and his party. But nevertheless, it will be fascinating to see what arguments the Labour Party does make in the run up to those elections to try to at the very least alleviate what even they believe are going to be some pretty stinging losses.
- [26:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
Quite so. And we will have to look back and see if they use the same arguments and wheel them out again that they used the morning after the May elections in 2025. So we will see.
- [27:06]
Paddy O'Connell
Do you think we should have a ban on the word crucial election results? Should we find. Should we get a journalistic sort of bell every time someone says this is a key set of elections?
- [27:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes. Or key targets. That is a target is a target. You don't have to say a key target. It's either a target or it's not a target.
- [27:22]
Paddy O'Connell
I think it's always useful and I'm not the expert that you two are the public are the boss. Public's the boss. And every now and again it comes up and it's all linked. For me, the pressure from my bills times 60 million Britons is. That is. That's in a reminder of why we're talking about the energy and the elections. Are the public getting with their pencil out?
- [27:43]
Henry Bonsu
Yeah.
- [27:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
That says the most exciting moment, then it goes. The power for those 24 hours is like is, is, is, is in the ether. It goes over to the public and then they hand it back to the politicians, sometimes with two fingers on it. So exciting. And I'm already getting quite excited. I might start listening to the election theme music because that just. I'm sad like that. But yeah, we'll have tons of coverage of that, of Mega May, which. Henry, you corrected yourself before I needed to tell you off. There are local elections in England and very important national elections in Scotland and in Wales. So if you hear anybody saying they're local elections, that's not all they are.
- [28:16]
Paddy O'Connell
Henry, you're smiling.
- [28:17]
Henry Bonsu
Oh, well, I'm, I'm just pleased that Laura noticed that midway through the sentence I made sure I delivered the approved BBC terminology.
- [28:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
Always approving the approved BBC terminology. Marvelous. Oh, it's Easter, Patty, you're going to disappear and I'm going to disappear. So I think we can say look forward to that. You can have a rest from us in your luggles. And also there's chocolate eggs and all sorts of nice things that can happen at Easter holidays.
- [28:41]
Paddy O'Connell
So Laura and I won't be here, but the best news of all is that there will there will be special programs to keep you company next weekend. Goodbye.
- [28:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
Goodbye.
- [28:51]
Henry Bonsu
Goodbye.
- [28:54]
Paddy O'Connell
Newscast.
- [28:55]
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Newscast from the BBC.
- [28:57]
Chris Mason
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.
- [29:44]
Henry Bonsu
Have you ever received a call from a stranger regarding student loans? You don't owe an unpaid parking ticket for a car that you don't even own. If so, you might have been the target of a scam orchestrated by criminals thousands of miles away. I'm Tristan Redman, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast and we're taking an inside look at the highly lucrative scam factories of Southeast Asia. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.