Victoria Derbyshire (2:59)

You said there were some prominent people writing these jokes. Who?

Jo Coburn (3:04)

I have maybe been sworn to secrecy by some people involved, but I would say there are WhatsApp groups and constant WhatsApp chats with people, feeding in jokes, gags, ideas, some things that you might think are inappropriate or go too far. But Kemi Badenoch has the support, seemingly of a lot of prominent Conservative politicians, former cabinet ministers, and at the moment, I'm told a lot of people send in jokes via WhatsApp. And some are using, some are not.

Victoria Derbyshire (3:36)

Right. Do you have a favourite Christmas joke?

Jo Coburn (3:39)

I don't, but test me.

Victoria Derbyshire (3:41)

Why did the Christmas tree go to the doctors?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (3:43)

Why?

Jo Coburn (3:44)

Why did they go to the doctors?

Victoria Derbyshire (3:45)

Because it had tensillitis.

Jo Coburn (3:48)

Very good.

Victoria Derbyshire (3:49)

No, it's absolutely terrible.

Jo Coburn (3:51)

You should be the House of Commons here.

Victoria Derbyshire (3:52)

Let's get on with this episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

Keir Starmer (3:58)

Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons. I was the tattletail in the closet.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (4:03)

Can I have an apology, please?

Keir Starmer (4:04)

I trust almost nobody that daddy has.

Jo Coburn (4:07)

To sometimes use strong language.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (4:08)

Next time in mosque.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:10)

I feel Delulu with no Salulu.

Jo Coburn (4:12)

Take me down to Downing Street.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (4:14)

Let's go have a tour.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:15)

Blimey. It's Victoria in the newscast studio.

Jo Coburn (4:18)

And it's Joe pike in the newscast studio.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:20)

Joe pike, how are you?

Jo Coburn (4:21)

Very good.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (4:22)

How are you?

Jo Coburn (4:22)

Looking very Christmassy.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:23)

I am. I've got a red shirt on, but I miss working with you on Newsnight.

Jo Coburn (4:26)

Oh, wow. Now and then we. I pop up and. Yeah, joining the studio.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:30)

Maybe we'll have a drink later and at our News Night Christmas party.

Jo Coburn (4:32)

Absolutely.

Victoria Derbyshire (4:33)

Anyway, let's talk about Erasmus. Who is he? No, what is it?

Jo Coburn (4:37)

He is a Dutch Renaissance theologian, Desiderius Erasmus. It is a EU study scheme for people at universities, NFI colleges and wanting to do apprenticeships. All sorts of people. But since Brexit, Brits have not been able to take part in it. Boris Johnson replaced it with a Turing scheme, named after a different historical figure, a mathematician, Alan Turing and computer scientist. So what the government have now announced is that from 2027, six years after the government announced it would end its participation in this scheme, people will be able to spend a year abroad in one of these institutions in Europe. And a key part of it is that you don't need to pay any extra fees. And of course, people from Europe can come to the UK and do this, do a similar thing.

Victoria Derbyshire (5:27)

Sure. I. For what it's worth, I asked my 19 year old son, who never heard of it, what do you think of. He's just finished his first term at uni. What do you think of this idea, us going back into this scheme? His reaction was quality. What's the other reaction been?

Jo Coburn (5:43)

Well, certainly the EU Vic had praised the work of Nick Thomas Simmons and others in the UK government, saying the UK's reintegration into the scheme opened the door to new shared experiences and lasting friendships for young people, like, I suppose, potentially your son. But not everyone is on side. The Lib Dems, unsurprisingly, are positive about it. Hallelujah was the word that Leila Moran from Lib Dems said. But the Conservatives have been particularly critical. Priti Patel saying this undoes Brexit by stealth, but also criticism. With the amount this will cost, the bill is 570 million pounds, almost double the annual cost pre Brexit. And that is just that. Negotiated plan, just for the first year, for the 27 to 28 academic year. This is sort of like a bit of an introductory offer. It seems that 570 is what the UK is paying now. But it's perfectly possible that rises partly because under new multi EU budgets there may be a much bigger cost.

Victoria Derbyshire (6:48)

Right, okay. Now you say it's double the old. The old scheme, Almost double. I think it's more than that. I think it's more than that. We can check it actually with the Minister for the Constitution and European Union relations, Nick Thomas Simmons, who is in our Westminster studio. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Thomas Simmons. Welcome back to newscast.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (7:07)

Delighted to join you again.

Victoria Derbyshire (7:08)

Victoria, why is the UK back in Erasmus?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (7:13)

To create tens of thousands of greater opportunities for principally young people, but for adult learners as well. And this is a really exciting announcement, Victoria. I've been delighted to conclude this negotiation and to be able to make this announcement today because we've had the Turing Scheme, which was for schools, colleges and indeed for universities. But what this is is a much broader scheme with including things like youth work or sports exchanges. I was at Neffy College only this morning in Hackney talking about sport, basketball, as it happens this morning, but also, as I say, adult learners staff who might want to go and get extra training and broaden their horiz as well. So this is a much bigger scheme, broader set of opportunities. Very proud to be presenting it and it will of course be operating from 2027.

Victoria Derbyshire (8:08)

It's not broader in geographical terms though, is it? Because the Turing scheme was worldwide. This is obviously the European Union.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (8:16)

No, it isn't. So first of all, it is the European Union. There's then half a dozen non EU members of it as well. But in addition to that, the Grant holding bodies here in the United Kingdom will be able to allocate 20% of funds for those young people who might want to go to countries beyond that. So there's still that opportunity for those who want to do it on a more worldwide basis.

Victoria Derbyshire (8:39)

Okay, let's talk about the cost then. Because the last year the UK was in Erasmus, it received 120. The UK received 126 million pounds of EU funding for about 56,000 British people to take part. Now, the UK, as Joe pointed out, is going to be paying 570 million pounds. You negotiated that cost. How is that a good deal?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (9:08)

It's an absolutely excellent deal. And firstly. Well, let me explain to you why, Victoria, because you're not comparing like with, like. When we were an EU member state, we were contributing into the general EU budget a larger amount of money. There's then an assumed amount, you know, a projected amount with regard to Erasmus. Plus it wasn't actually exceeding to that particular program the 570 million pounds for that year. First of all, that is a 30% discount on what it would ordinarily be. Secondly, we're talking about over 100,000 people in the UK benefiting from it. So that's lots of that money flowing back in grants to those people. But to your point about the balance between participation and contribution, I absolutely 100% want to get that right. So what I've agreed with the European union is that 10 months after our accession, we will look at that fair balance and we will be doing it then, not on assumed statistics, not trying to go back to the past and look at when we were contributing to the general EU budget, not the specific program. It can then be based on the actual number of Brits who have taken part in the scheme and the level of grants that they have received.

Victoria Derbyshire (10:21)

So it could go up. The cost could go up after that 10 months. When you're doing one negotiation.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (10:25)

I have agreed a fair balance, Victoria.

Victoria Derbyshire (10:28)

No, no, no, no, no. I'm just. I know that's what you said. When you come to renegotiate, it could be more than 570 million pounds. That's what you just told us.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (10:36)

No, no, hang on. I will not get ahead of negotiations or speculate on one outcome or another. What I'm saying is it would be based squarely on value for money and it would be based on data. Well, it's a speculation I'm not going to get into. I'm here not to commentate, but to negotiate on behalf of the uk. And I'll be negotiating on always for fair funding and a fair balance. But Victoria, you're absolutely right, of course, to challenge me about value for money. And so you should. But we shouldn't lose sight either of all the other opportunities there are for broadening people's horizons. And people listening to this should know, whatever your background, whatever your financial circumstances, if this is something you might like to do, please don't be put off by thinking it's just a student exchange program. It really isn't. We want young people, indeed adult learners too, to be able to make the most of their skills and development. This government stands beside them in doing that. And that's what this announcement's about today.

Jo Coburn (11:35)

Nick, what happens to the Turing Scheme, though? What happens to people who want to swap with an institution further than Europe?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (11:44)

So, two points. Firstly, I don't want anyone who is currently on the Turing scheme to think that their funding is suddenly going to be pulled or anything like that. It really isn't. They can complete the placement they're on. But secondly, with Erasmus, there will still be places available. So it will be. Each of the grant holding institutions in the UK will still be able to allocate 20% of that funding to people who might want to go beyond either the European Union member states. The other six countries that are involved, they want to go even further afield. That opportunity will still be available to them under this system.

Victoria Derbyshire (12:22)

Okay, forgive me, I do want to come back to the cost. I don't understand why it's so much. I don't understand why it's half a billion pounds.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (12:31)

Because it's opportunities for literally tens of thousands of young Brits.

Victoria Derbyshire (12:38)

That's an awful lot of money for, quote, new shared experiences and lasting friendships, which are the words of the EC president, Ursula von der Leyen. That's half a billion quid.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (12:51)

But it also contributes to our workforce. There's clearly an economic benefit in that as well.

Victoria Derbyshire (12:56)

Do you know what the figure might be for that?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (12:58)

Well, this is the point I'm making to you about the 10 month review, because I could come back on newscast at that time and absolutely give you all this data, because that's the basis upon which I want to make the decision going forward. Data driven.

Victoria Derbyshire (13:14)

I understand value for money. You like the data driven. I get that. I can totally appreciate that. So how have you come up with 570 million? Because you haven't plucked it from the air, have you?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (13:24)

So the way that I've done this, I've looked at where the situation was under the existing arrangement so this is what Boris Johnson originally negotiated, you know, back in 2020, 21. We call it the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. The fee under that was £810 million. Now, I am saying that, for a start, this is towards the end of what the EU calls its multiannual financial framework, which ends in 2028. So it's this one year. So I've been negotiating a discount on that. I think 30% discount is a very good value for money outcome. And by the way, the previous government just walked away from this. They weren't offered a discount or even sought to get a discount.

Victoria Derbyshire (14:08)

They replaced it with the Turing scheme.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (14:10)

Yeah, but it's.

Victoria Derbyshire (14:11)

Which was cheaper.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (14:12)

I'm sorry, Victoria, but it's nowhere near the same. If you look at the last year of the t scheme, it's 43,200 people and it's only schools, colleges and universities. This is well over a hundred thousand people can benefit per year. So it's more than double that scheme.

Victoria Derbyshire (14:28)

You don't know. But also.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (14:30)

But also.

Jo Coburn (14:30)

But.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (14:31)

Well, I'll come back and have the discussion with you if I don't meet it. But secondly, as well, this is also way beyond just school colleges and further education institutions around the sports exchanges, the youth exchanges, the adult education exchanges. So this is about a far better, bigger scheme and that's why I've taken the decision that I have. And by the way, if the other parties wish to oppose this and genuinely want to come back and say they want to take these opportunities away from young people, then I would welcome that debate.

Jo Coburn (15:04)

You talk about opportunities for young people. Nick, what about the other scheme that many people are expecting government to be negotiating soon on youth mobility, on young people being able to live and work in Europe.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (15:20)

So we've also agreed with the European Union and Mara Sefkovic and I have made this clear today that by the time of the next UK EU summit, it'll be in 2026. We haven't set a date in 2026, but it will be next year. We will have completed the negotiations on the Youth Experience Scheme, but also the Food and Drink agreement, which, by the way, will mean that exporters up and down the country in the agri food sector having to pay, say, £200 per consignment for export health certificates, 1400 po, if they're selected for sampling, £61 for identity checks, will no longer have the red tape and those checks. So that's the progress we're driving forward as well.

Victoria Derbyshire (16:00)

So you're still going to go for a Youth mobility scheme on top of this Erasmus scheme, we certainly are looking.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (16:06)

For that youth experience scheme. It will be in the Context of the 13 youth mobility schemes that already exist, that are operating perfectly well at the moment. It will be capped, it will be time limited, it will be subject to visa requirements. But again, Victoria, Joe, we quite right to talk about design of the scheme, and that's subject to negotiation at the moment. But again, this is a really exciting opportunity for young people. This government is about giving opportunities to young people to make the most of their potential. Again, I'm very proud to be negotiating that as well.

Victoria Derbyshire (16:40)

And then there'll be many, many young people who would be delighted to have that opportunity, I'm sure. But there might be others who are saying, look, this is reminding me of how the UK used to be. And actually, I voted for Brexit.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (16:54)

Well, of course. And we respect the outcome of the 2016 referendum. And in our manifesto last year, we said we wouldn't go back to freedom of movement, we wouldn't go back to the Customs Union, we wouldn't go back to the single market. We will not do those things. What we were absolutely clear about is that we would, in the national interest, negotiate a closer UK EU relationship within that framework, within those guardrails. That's what our mandate is in the 2024 election. That's what I'm delivering.

Victoria Derbyshire (17:22)

You were recently put back in the Cabinet, if I can put it like that, as Minister for the Constitution and EU Relations. Tell newscasters what the significance of that is when it comes to the government's position on Brexit and where you want to be in relation to the rest of Europe.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (17:41)

So, firstly, I'm not sure put back is correct phrase.

Victoria Derbyshire (17:46)

It did sound crude. I didn't mean it like that. How would you put it?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (17:48)

Well, I was already attending Cabinet when relevant issues on my portfolio were on the agenda. So I've never not contributed in Cabinet on the direction of our European policy. But nonetheless, to obviously be have now full attendance rights, full participation, I think, is a recognition and a confidence from the Prime Minister in the strategy that we've been pursuing. Indeed, I've been pursuing from a year out, from the general election, when we were in opposition, preparing and doing the careful diplomatic work that's allowed me to conduct this negotiation in government and 2026 in the UK. EU relationship is now going to be about delivery, it's about delivering those and ending the negotiations on what we agreed in the Common Understanding in May. And to go back to the food and drink Agreement. I've said that I want that implemented in the first half of 2027. So it's going to be all about now, driving progress, instruction from the Prime Minister to get on to deliver. That's precisely what I'm doing.

Jo Coburn (18:46)

You seem to be getting challenges from both sides, though, especially on this sort of policy. The Lib Dems are wanting the Government to move further. The Conservatives talking of betrayal, and yet some of the language you hear from ministers and indeed the Prime Minister, seem to be the government attempting to use the issue of Brexit to criticise and damage reform. What is happening with all of your rivals?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (19:10)

What's happening is I am delivering. The Government is delivering. We are putting forward a deal and delivering a deal that is good for jobs, that is good for bills bearing down on food and energy bills and is giving us more tools like sharing criminal records to defend our borders. And our challenge to the other parties is if you seriously want to go into the next general election, you want to put those jobs at risk, you want to risk bills going up, you want to take away tools from frontline law enforcement to secure our borders, then that is a debate we will welcome.

Victoria Derbyshire (19:43)

Thank you for being with me.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (19:44)

Pleasure.

Victoria Derbyshire (19:44)

On your book. Do you get a bit of time with your family at Christmas?

Nick Thomas-Symonds (19:47)

Yes, and I'm very much looking forward to it.

Victoria Derbyshire (19:49)

Victoria, excellent. Enjoy with your children. Thanks so much. Thank you. Well, Britain's biggest trade union, Unison, which has more than 1.3 million members, has a new General secretary and the new boss is Andrea Egan. Who is she, Jo? And why does this matter?

Jo Coburn (20:10)

Andrew eganvik is a Bolton based social worker. It matters because the person she is effectively ousted in this election, Christina mceny, who is still General Secretary until January, she is seen as one of Keir Starmer's biggest, if not his biggest, ally in the trade union movement. And Andrea Egan is to the left of the Labour Party. She was chucked out of labour in 2022 because of some social media posts, prom Marxist articles. She's seen as someone likely to be critical of the leadership and has already said stuff in the campaign that suggests she will, quote, hold Kiyo Sama's feet to the fire, or rather Labour's feet to the fire. It's also significant because Unison is an enormous union. It funds labour, significantly, 1.5 million pounds from Unison to Labour at the last general election and it's got 1.3 million members in all these different areas, mainly big public service employers like the nhs, like local government, some in the police, although they may have a big membership. Not many voted in this contest. About 7% under 100,000 of the 1.3 million. So turnout was very, very low. Andrea Egan won with a sort of 60, 40 split, and it was a surprise. And for the past couple of days, I've been getting missed calls and texts from people in Labour, some excited, some worried about this because of how it could potentially change the balance of power internally.

Victoria Derbyshire (21:44)

Okay, well, let's have a listen to Andrea Egan. Here she is speaking in a campaign video back in October.

Jo Coburn (21:50)

Hi, I'm Andrea Egan and I'm standing to be an ex General Secretary of Unison.

Victoria Derbyshire (21:55)

As a social worker, I understand the difficulties workers and families face. Austerity, devastated working lives, waves. How can she, in practical terms, make life difficult for Sir Keir Starmer if she wishes to?

Jo Coburn (22:13)

One way she could do it, Vic, is to be sort of vocally critical on the airwaves to come on News Night with you or come on a newscast and be critical of Keir Starmer and pick apart different parts of policies. She's certainly been very critical over previous ditch plans, over. Over welfare. She also could change the role Unison plays. It's big and it is solid and it's supportive. And she could potentially follow Sharon Graham, the General Secretary of the second biggest trade union in the country, Unite and review financial contributions, reduce financial contributions. It's quite complicated how that works internally. It's not going to happen immediately, but in maybe 18 months, month, she could reduce those contributions. She could also potentially follow what Sharon Graham has sort of considered, which is decoupling from the Labour Party. And finally, I think it's also important to see how her election impacts other trade unions, especially ones that are more moderate and supportive. Because if you're in. In USDOR or you're in the GMB and you're reasonably supportive of Keir Starmer and you have another prominent leader being critical of him, you probably need to maybe moderate your position. And then there are more technical things like Labour's National Executive Committee, and this could change the balance there. Kirstama has a very strong grip on the ruling National Executive, which decides things including selections and shortlists for parliamentary seats.

Victoria Derbyshire (23:51)

Right.

Jo Coburn (23:52)

And Andrew Egan's been positive about Andy Burnham, calling him the King of the North. And she obviously is. Is based in Bolton, he's Greater Manchester, she said.

Victoria Derbyshire (24:02)

I mean, what she told the New Statesman about. About Andy Burnham was he would make quite a good leader, and in a separate interview said, I'm a fan of Andy. I mean, he's the King of the North.

Jo Coburn (24:13)

She seems to be somebody who prefers Andy Burnham rather than Keir Starmer. It's not as if what's happening on the NEC could completely switch the dynamics, because Keir Starmer, even though he doesn't necessarily have a strong grip on voters from what polls say, or indeed on a lot of people in the parliamentary Labour Party, he's really Strong on the NEC. It is a 41 member body, Unison has two seats and therefore his grip could weaken. And there is a sort of subcommittee of the NEC which looks after after selection. So you could see someone from Unison potentially having a voice on a panel which might decide whether Andy Burnham is or is not shortlisted. But this is not a transformative moment. It's more the sort of weakening grip which I think we should look at, because in a year or two years, we may look back at this being a key point where things have got more difficult for Keir Starmer's relationship with the trade union.

Victoria Derbyshire (25:13)

And to say to newscasters, we did try and get Andrea Egan on newscast this evening, wasn't possible, but perhaps another day Mainstream, which is another network, a political network, which happens to be a supporter of Andy Burnham, said this result shows clearly that vast waves of Labour's historic coalition feel the government has fallen out of step with its mainstream. Jo, thank you very much. I don't know why I'm thanking you. I'm not the normal host. But, hey, it's been nice working with.

Jo Coburn (25:41)

You again, as ever. My pleasure, yeah.

Victoria Derbyshire (25:43)

Are you coming for a drink at the Newsnight Christmas party?

Jo Coburn (25:45)

Well, maybe I'll try and pop in.

Victoria Derbyshire (25:46)

Excellent. And Tristan Redmond from the Global Story will be in the host seat tomorrow for Adam. Have a good one.

Jo Coburn (25:54)

Bye Bye.

Victoria Derbyshire (25:54)

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

Jo Coburn (25:57)

Well, thank you for making it to.

Victoria Derbyshire (25:58)

The end of another newscast.

Jo Coburn (26:00)

You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds?

Victoria Derbyshire (26:06)

And then, without having to do anything.

Jo Coburn (26:08)

Else, our meandering chats will miraculously make its way to your phone.

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