Is The Ukraine War Entering A New Phase Of Aggression?

Summary

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Newscast – "Is The Ukraine War Entering a New Phase of Aggression?"

Episode Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Adam Fleming
Guests: Dan Johnson (BBC Ukraine Correspondent, Kyiv), Steve Rosenberg (BBC Russia Editor, Moscow)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Newscast centers on the shifting dynamics of the Russia-Ukraine war as it appears to enter a new and more aggressive phase. Host Adam Fleming brings together on-the-ground perspectives from Dan Johnson in Kyiv and analysis from Steve Rosenberg in Moscow. The discussion covers recent escalations, the impact of drone warfare, civilian experiences, international responses, and the evolving geography of the conflict.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Arrival in Kyiv and the Ukrainian Reality

• Dan Johnson describes arriving in Kyiv just days ago, immediately facing an air raid and missile attacks, highlighting both the normalization of war for residents and the ever-present threat.

  • “Within four hours of me actually getting to Kyiv, there was a full on air raid... and could see fires around the city.” (02:28 – Dan Johnson)

• Signs of Normality & Underlying Tension:

  • Many aspects of life appear normal, a contrast from Johnson’s previous experiences in 2022, but danger remains constant.
  • “Over four years people have just had to get used to this... But then you see that sort of air raids and that sort of destruction, you realize that that risk is still there.” (02:28 – Dan Johnson)

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2. Ukrainian Drone Attacks Deep into Russia

• Wildberries Targeted:

  • Steve Rosenberg reports on Ukrainian drone strikes against Russian logistics, notably targeting Wildberries, Russia’s equivalent of Amazon.
  • “These big Wildberries warehouses are being attacked by Ukrainian drones... It’s a huge company... So the fact that these warehouses have been going up in smoke, that is affecting people.” (04:15 – Steve Rosenberg)

• Civilian Impact & Perceptions:

  • These strikes bring the war “closer to home,” disrupting the Russian sense of distance from the conflict.
  • “You buy things through Wildberries. That’s affected. The drone strikes on Russian oil refineries... have sparked petrol shortage. So that affects you too.” (05:00 – Steve Rosenberg)

• Striking Deep Inside Russia:

  • The drones are capable of hitting targets far from Ukraine’s borders.
  • “Ukraine has the capability to strike deep inside Russian territory with these long range drone strikes... Russia is struggling to shoot down all of these drones and they admit that.” (05:42 – Steve Rosenberg)

• The Kremlin’s Stance:

  • Despite these attacks, Russian messaging remains defiant: “Russia still has the initiative. Russia is going to continue the so called special military operation... still predicting victory.” (06:17 – Steve Rosenberg)

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3. Escalation: Civilian Casualties on Russian Soil

• Beach Drone Attack Incident:
  • Ukrainian drone reportedly crashes on a crowded beach near Gilinzhik, Russia. Several killed, including children, sparking public anger.
  • “A drone crash landed into a beach... several people were killed, including children. Dozens of people were injured and that sparked fury in Russia.” (06:40 – Steve Rosenberg)

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4. Ballistic Missile & Drone Attacks on Ukraine

• Ukrainian Vulnerability:

  • Recent Russian missile attacks on Kyiv resulted in significant casualties due to depleted Ukrainian air defenses.
  • “On the first night I was here, 28 [missiles] were fired mostly towards Kyiv, and none of them were intercepted... 21 people were killed that night.” (07:35 – Dan Johnson)

• Interceptor Supply Issues:

  • Shortages of US-made Patriot interceptors are highlighted.
  • “There’s a shortage of them anyway. Ukraine would need a whole load of them because it takes at least two to bring down each incoming missile.” (09:00 – Dan Johnson)
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been crying out to get more... but it really is in the hands of America to deliver them.” (09:00 – Dan Johnson)

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5. Civilian Stories from Ukraine

• Anastasia’s Testimony:
  • A Ukrainian civilian whose house was destroyed expresses gratitude for the air defense efforts despite the loss.
  • “It was so scary. I must say, this was my scariest night during the five years. My scariest night.” (10:29 – Anastasia, via Dan Johnson reporting)
  • “She’s still very supportive of her government, her military…understanding of the repercussions that come back on ordinary Ukrainians.” (10:56 – Dan Johnson)

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6. Escalation: New Dynamics and Increasing Chaos

• Conflict Spreading Beyond the Front Line:

  • Adam Fleming observes that the conflict feels less geographically confined.
  • “It sort of feels like the front line is a bit everywhere now.” (21:12 – Adam Fleming)
  • Steve Rosenberg: “It’s very chaotic, confusing... The sense of disillusionment, disappointment with America... It looked like they were just going to get a bit steamrollered. That didn’t happen.” (21:39 – Steve Rosenberg)

• Russian Citizens and the War:

  • Feelings range from support for the war to anger at the West; Steve Rosenberg recounts an aggressive encounter on the street linked to anti-Western sentiment:
  • “A lot of people said, we want this whole war to be over... One woman called Galena... says, ‘This is the work of Britain. This is your work… It makes me want to come up and punch you.’” (15:56 – Steve Rosenberg)

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7. The European Dimension: Drone Incidents in Germany

• Incidents in Leipzig:

  • Recent drone with explosives found at Leipzig airport and a DHL cargo plane damaged.
  • “A German member of parliament... was definitely pointing the finger at Russia. Are you sensing that Russia is maybe trying to export this conflict to other European countries?” (13:00 – Adam Fleming)

• Hybrid Warfare:

  • Rosenberg: “Russia has been accused for some time now by Western governments of waging a hybrid war against Europe... with various acts of sabotage, cyberattacks in Europe.” (13:35 – Steve Rosenberg)

• Defense Dilemmas Facing Europe:

  • Germany debates how to protect infrastructure; uncertainty over effectiveness and responsibility for drone defenses.

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8. "Human Safari" – Drones Targeting Civilians

• Footage in Ukraine:
  • Viral footage shows a Russian drone hunting a civilian vegetable seller.
  • “It was a very clear, awful example of a Russian drone actually hunting down... He tried to escape, he tried to run away... the drone... just dives towards him and explodes behind the van. Miraculously, he survived.” (18:36 – Dan Johnson)
  • “President Zelenskyy also said it’s important that people see what the Russians are doing and what sort of threat my people are under.” (19:30 – Dan Johnson)

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9. International Diplomatic Visits & The Limits of Western Aid

• UK Defense Secretary Visits Kyiv:
  • Dan Johnson covers the visit of Wes Streeting to Kyiv.
  • “The direct question again from President Zelensky was, well, how do I turn your words of support into actual practical air defence measures that I can use to protect my people? And West Streeting just isn’t able to give him the right answers on that.” (20:14 – Dan Johnson)

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10. Russian Perceptions of the West & Internal Disillusionment

• Russian State Narrative:

  • “Russians are being told that it is Europe... who are plotting to destroy Russia, who are planning a major war against Russia, and that Russia needs to prepare against the Western threat.” (14:59 – Steve Rosenberg)

• Reflections on US Involvement:

  • Russian expectation that American pressure would force a settlement has not materialized; disappointment with US role.
  • “A year ago... there was this hope, this optimism that Donald Trump would put pressure on Ukraine and help deliver to Russia the kind of peace deal that Moscow wanted... That didn’t happen.” (21:39 – Steve Rosenberg)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Within four hours of arriving, I was actually filming missile explosions and could see fires around the city.” – Dan Johnson (02:28)
• “The fact that these [Wildberries] warehouses have been going up in smoke, that is affecting people and it’s bringing the war much closer to home to Russians.” – Steve Rosenberg (04:15)
• “Patriot… is the really effective defense weapon... There’s a shortage of them anyway. Ukraine would need a whole load of them.” – Dan Johnson (09:00)
• “It was so scary. I must say, this was my scariest night during the five years. My scariest night.” – Anastasia, Ukrainian civilian (10:29)
• “[Drone] hunting down… a vegetable seller… circles around his van… just dives towards him and explodes behind the van... Miraculously, he survived.” – Dan Johnson (18:36)
• “You live in this sort of parallel reality here where Russians are also being told that they are liberating Ukraine and that they are defending Russia.” – Steve Rosenberg (14:59)
• “One woman called Galena… says, ‘This is the work of Britain. This is your work… It makes me want to come up and punch you.’” – Steve Rosenberg (15:56)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:28] Dan Johnson’s arrival in Kyiv and immediate air raid experience
• [04:15] Steve Rosenberg on Ukrainian drone strikes deep in Russia and Wildberries attacks
• [06:40] Deadly drone incident on a Russian beach
• [07:35] Wave of Russian ballistic missile attacks on Kyiv and Ukraine’s interceptor shortages
• [10:29] Civilian account: Anastasia on the scariest night of the war
• [13:00-14:59] Drone incidents in Germany and European/Western defense concerns
• [15:56] Street-level anti-Western sentiment in Moscow
• [18:36] “Human safari” drone strike video goes viral in Ukraine
• [20:14] UK Defense Secretary’s visit to Kyiv
• [21:39] Russia’s frustration with US inaction and shifting perceptions of the front line

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Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid picture of an increasingly unpredictable war, where the front lines blur, cities across both Ukraine and Russia are under threat, and drone warfare is reshaping military and civilian life. Steve Rosenberg and Dan Johnson offer candid, on-the-ground insights—from the psychological impact on civilians to Kremlin messaging and Western diplomatic challenges.

Overall Message: The war is escalating, its effects ever more direct for ordinary civilians on both sides. Political expectations—about the West, about the shape and timeline of the conflict—are repeatedly upended, with Ukraine and Russia both adapting, improvising, and bracing for further aggression.

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Transcript

[Dan Johnson]

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[Adam Fleming]

Hello. We have not talked about the war between Russia and Ukraine for what seems like ages. But this week it also felt like lots of things were happening and I wanted to have the dots joined up for for me. So we thought we'd do that for you too. And that's what you'll hear on this

[BBC Newscast Announcer]

episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Keith (Bus Driver)]

Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Adam Fleming]

You know, I like my bosses. I'll come on to them.

[Steve Rosenberg]

I see that he was, I guess, the mayor of a town.

[Adam Fleming]

Ooh la.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[BBC Newscast Announcer]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall?

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio and we're going to focus this episode at the end of this week on the many, many things that have been happening between Russia and Ukraine. And a few themes I think will emerge by the end of this episode. And the two people who are going to help us untangle it all are here or, well, they're down the line because they're covering their various patches. First of all, we've got Dan Johnson, who is the BBC's fairly new Ukraine correspondent in Kyiv. Hi, Dan.

[Dan Johnson]

Hi there.

[Adam Fleming]

And veteran Russia editor Steve Rosenberg. Hi, Steve.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Hello, Adam. Hi there.

[Adam Fleming]

Obviously I meant veteran in a good way. Just to be clear. Dan, you've just arrived in your post. What was it like starting a new job, but starting a new job in a country that's at war?

[Dan Johnson]

Yeah, I Just arrived here three days ago and driving in there was an air raid alert. And then within four hours of me actually getting to Kyiv, there was a full on air raid which saw quite a large missile attack on, on the edges of the city. So within four hours of arriving, I was actually filming missile explosions and could see fires around the city. And then the following morning we went to the scene of some of those impacts to film the aftermath and to talk to some of the people who've been caught up in that. So I know this is what people have been living through for four and a half years now. It's the sort of thing I experienced when I was last here in 2022. But it just illustrated just how continuous that risk is, how large threat is that people are living with every day. What was notable driving in this time was actually how normal things can seem to begin with. And when I was last here, that wasn't the case because there were soldiers on the streets, there were checkpoints, all sorts of things were boarded up and shielded. Some of that has relaxed because naturally over four years people have just had to get used to this and learn how to live with it. But then when you see that sort of air raids and that sort of destruction, you realize that that risk is still there. And that's why while ever there's some degree of normality, people are still very wary. They know that can be interrupted at any moment.

[Adam Fleming]

And we'll talk about some of the significance of those attacks that you mentioned there in a little moment. But Steve, over to you now. Basically it seems one of the themes this week has been Ukrainian drone attacks quite deep into Russia and attacking this online retailer called Wildberries. And I say attacking, I mean actually physically attacking the infrastructure, not a cyber attack on the website.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Yeah, well these attacks began last month actually. And yeah, one by one these big Wildberries warehouses are being attacked by Ukrainian drones. And you know, Muscovites are getting used to waking up in the morning and reading the news that another Wildberrys warehouse or logistics hub has been attacked. It's quite incredible. And you know, it's a huge company, Wildberries, it's Russia's version of Amazon. Tens of millions of Russians buy things through Wildberries. Hundreds of thousands of Russian sellers sell things through Wildberries. So the fact that these warehouses have been going up in smoke, that is affecting people and it's bringing the war much closer to home to Russians. Because up till now so many people here have tried to pretend that the war isn't happening, especially in the big Cities like Moscow and St Petersburg. The war, you can sort of convince yourself the war's a long way away, it doesn't concern you, doesn't affect your life. That's becoming much harder to do because, you know, you buy things through wildberries. That's affected the drone strikes on Russian oil refineries. They have sparked petrol shortage. So that affects you too. So in many different ways, people are being affected more and more here.

[Adam Fleming]

And Steve, we should be really clear, these Ukrainian drone attacks are on infrastructure that sometimes is quite a long way away from Ukraine's border as Russia, it's quite deep into the country.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, now Ukraine has the capability to strike deep inside Russian territory with these long range drone strikes. And you know, Russia is struggling to shoot down all of these drones and they admit that. You know, you read the Russian newspapers in the morning and you read, you know, we need to boost our air defences. We cannot cope with all these Ukrainian drone strikes. Having said that, the general message coming out of Moscow in the last week has been, despite all these drone strikes, despite wildburst warehouses being hit and oil refineries, the position of the Kremlin is Russia still has the initiative. Russia is going to continue the so called special military operation, the war in Ukraine. And Russia's still predicting, or the Kremlin is still predicting victory.

[Adam Fleming]

And Steve, just talking about another particular attack launched by Ukrainian drones. It was on a beach in southern Russia. Just explain what happened there and why that's become so significant.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Yeah, well, that sparked anger in Russia. So this was a Ukrainian drone. This was caught on video in southern Russia, there's a resort called Gilinzhik. It was just about an hour's drive from Gilinzhik on a beach. This drone crash landed into a beach. Now it seems from the video as if there was certainly an attempt to intercept it. You could hear shots. So it may have been shot down, but certainly it landed on a beach, a packed beach, and several people were killed, including children. Dozens of people were injured and that sparked fury in Russia. But as I say, it looks as if it was intercepted.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dan, we'll talk about Russian drones in Ukraine in a second, but I wanted to just ask you about ballistic missile attacks because they've been the big thing that's been happening where you are this week.

[Dan Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. They've been a menace to the Ukrainians throughout this war, but particularly at the moment in recent weeks with Ukrainian air defence interceptors having been depleted, the President was very clear that he just doesn't have enough of those interceptors to keep people safe here. And they are what is vital for bringing down ballistic missiles. And Russia was able to fire more of those this week. On the first night I was here, 28 of them were fired mostly towards Kyiv, and none of them were intercepted. So that's why 21 people were killed that night. And a 22nd person has actually died today as a result of injury. There were more than 40 other people injured in those wave of attacks. That is the big threat. And what you see is how many different levels Ukraine is fighting on. It's trying to take the war to Russia. It's also got to defend the front line in the east. There's the drone war there and the ground war. Then there are the incoming drones and missiles that are proving to be such a risk in the skies right across Ukraine.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dan, you talked about the importance of the interceptors to take these missiles out. What is going on with the pipeline of those interceptors? Because there's been quite a few reports in the last few months that other countries have said, yeah, we will give you the license, Ukraine, to produce these interceptors. What do we know about. About. About the supply or the lack of supply in some cases?

[Dan Johnson]

The really effective defense weapon is the Patriot in terms of ballistic missiles and bringing those down. The US Makes those and distributes them almost exclusively. There's a shortage of them anyway. Ukraine would need a whole load of them because it takes at least two to bring down each incoming missile. But with the war in Iran and the attacks that Iran was launching on other countries around the Middle east, especially around the Gulf, from the start of this year, those countries have also been demanding more Patriot interceptors. So there's a global shortage. At one point, Donald Trump did suggest that he may grant a license for Ukraine to start producing them itself, essentially handing over the ability, the technology and the copyright or the license to do that. But then he seemed to reverse position on that. So that's why Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been crying out to get more and more of those, but it really is in the hands of America to deliver them.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dan, you went to go meet some of the people who were the victims of those attacks.

[Keith (Bus Driver)]

Yeah.

[Dan Johnson]

While ever he doesn't have enough interceptors to protect the skies, people are continuing to get injured, killed. And we're seeing destruct warehouses were targeted, particularly this week, perhaps in response for what the Ukrainians have been doing in terms of targeting that online retailer in Russia. But other civilians were caught up in that. People who worked at Those warehouses, but also people who lived nearby. I spoke to a lady called Anastasia, whose house was right by one of the warehouses that was hit. The entire top floor of her house was blown off.

[BBC Newscast Announcer]

It was so scary. I must say, this was my scariest night during the five years. My scariest night.

[Dan Johnson]

How do you feel that the Ukrainian air defenses weren't able to intercept any missiles last night?

[BBC Newscast Announcer]

I gratefully thank you for all of them during these years, for all efforts they do to save me. During these five years, it was my choice to buy a house near a warehouse.

[Dan Johnson]

You know, just gives you that insight. Even someone who just lost their home and narrowly escaped with her life, she's still very supportive of her government, her military, what they're doing, and she's very understanding, understandable, of the repercussions that come back on ordinary Ukrainians.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Steve, that then leads me to ask you about your assessment of the tempo here, the level of escalation, because it seems to me as an outsider that maybe there has been a bit of an escalation in the last couple of weeks or the last month or so, but then also I'm very aware that I'm not monitoring this whole situation in detail every single day like you are. And maybe it's just my awareness and perception of what's going on that's changed as opposed to the conflict itself.

[Steve Rosenberg]

No, you're absolutely right. I think, Adam, there has been an escalation. It feels like we've moved into a new period. You know, I remember almost a year ago, you know, we were in Alaska for the Trump Putin summit, and there were many Russians at the time who were hoping that, you know, this war would be over very soon after the summit, and it didn't happen. Now, the US Russia relationship is certainly not as warm as it was a year ago. And it does seem as if we're into escalation now. If you were to ask me what Vladimir Putin is going to do next, I would say that possibly more escalation. I think it's unlikely that he's going to put his hands up and say, okay, it's time to stop ceasefire. Let's sign a peace deal. He shows no sign of doing that, and if he shows no sign of doing that, there's no U turn, then you have to predict more escalation. And I think that's what we're seeing now. Certainly the lack of air defenses in Ukraine that is giving the Russians hope that they can break the Ukrainian defenses. And they believe that if they can keep on, keep on with this war of attrition that they will succeed.

[Adam Fleming]

And Steve, I was on on PM on Radio 4 on Wednesday and we covered this story about the German airport. So in Leipzig, where they found a drone that had explosives on it. And separately, a DHL cargo plane had been hit by an unidentified object, which caused it some damage, and then it was diverted to another airport. And I was speaking to a German member of parliament who he, I mean, he was a little bit circumspect about it, but he was definitely pointing the finger at Russia. And are you sensing that Russia is maybe trying to export this conflict to other European countries?

[Steve Rosenberg]

It's interesting, isn't it? I was combing the Russian papers today for any mention of Leipzig, any reference to it. There was absolutely nothing at all. But of course, Russia has been accused for some time now by Western governments of waging a hybrid war against Europe, against European governments with various acts of sabotage, cyberattacks in Europe. So you could imagine that similar accusations will be leveled at Russia this time. You know, we talked about escalation, possibly further escalation, and there are many people who believe that that is one path that Russia could go down. We'll have to wait and see.

[Adam Fleming]

My takeaway from that conversation with the German MP was just about how much thought is going on in Germany about drone defense and what they're going to have to do differently, what technology they're going to have to buy, what kind of the implications are, or if they become a bit more gung ho about shooting down drones because you shoot down a drone, the wreckage lands somewhere else. Also, which different bits of the German authority is going to have to take responsibility. And then just the question of, well, you can't protect every single bit of infrastructure in a huge country like Germany. So what do you prioritize for drone defense if the next few decades is going to have a greater risk from drones wherever they come from. So that was a very kind of mind expanding conversation for me.

[Steve Rosenberg]

What's interesting, Adam, I think, is, you know, being here in Russia, you listen to the messaging on Russian state television or you read the newspapers. Here, the message is the polar opposite. So here Russians are being told that it is Europe, European politicians, Western governments who are plotting to destroy Russia, who are planning a major war against Russia, and that Russia needs to prepare against the Western threat. In other words, Russians are being told that their enemy is the West. And you know, you live in this sort of parallel reality here where Russians are also being told that they are liberating Ukraine and that they are defending Russia.

[Adam Fleming]

And Steve, on that theme of the sort of the gray zone conflict, where it's kind of is, but isn't war, I was really struck by that feeling from your reporting from the bombing of the Italian restaurant in Moscow, which seems quite, quite gray.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Yeah. We still don't know what that was about.

[Keith (Bus Driver)]

Right.

[Steve Rosenberg]

This was a bomb that exploded in an Italian restaurant in Moscow. There were some reports that suggested a courier had been delivering a package to someone at a private function and may not have known there was an explosive in the package. Who was at the function? Well, reports that senior military officials were at this private function, but we hadn't seen the official list of names of people who were killed. So a lot we don't know about that. But what I do know is that, you know, when we went to the scene the following day, emotions were certainly running high. We were doing vox pops, people outside the. The restaurant. And, you know, a lot of people said, we want this whole war to be over, assuming that this explosion was linked to Russia's war in Ukraine. But one woman called Galena, I think, really got very angry with me. She recognized me. She'd seen me asking Vladimir Putin questions on television, on Russian television. This is the work of Britain. This is your work, thinks Galena. Then it gets very personal. I seen you asking our president nasty questions, she says. It makes me want to come up and punch you. I hadn't experienced that, actually, that level of aggression for some time on the streets of Moscow. And I wonder whether if we are going to see more escalation and the level of perhaps anti Western sentiment increasing, whether we'll experience more of that.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, I thought that was a really stunning moment in your piece, Steve. Obviously not great for you to be on the receiving end of a very aggressive person. I just mean as a glimpse into at least one part of the Russian psyche at this moment, which I can imagine is sometimes quite a hard thing for you to get across, but it just really came across in volumes.

[Steve Rosenberg]

It's important to say that was one part, that is one part of the psyche. There were other people who came up to us and were polite and said, we want the war to be over. So different messages.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dan, I'm always struck that sometimes things that happen in this conflict go a bit viral, become a moment where everyone sees them and then sort of tunes back into what's going on and has a reaction to it. And that happened this week in Ukraine with the footage that President Zelensky released that he described of a drone doing A human safari. Just explain what was going on there and why that became such a sort of powerful image.

[Dan Johnson]

Yeah, it's not the first time we've seen this, but it was a very clear, awful example of a Russian drone actually hunting down, following one man, an individual. He was a vegetable seller who just got out of his van and was setting up his stall in the south of Ukraine when this drone came in and targeted him and chased him. He tried to escape, he tried to run away. He was doing circles around his van, trying to get away from it. But the remotely operated drone, it's almost locked on. It can just follow him. And then there's a point, and this is all on video, so it was all seen. There's a point where it just, just dives towards him and explodes behind the van. And you would think from the footage he'd inevitably been killed somehow. Miraculously, he survived with only relatively light shrapnel wounds. Others haven't been so lucky. And the Ukrainians have described this human safari that some of the Russian drone operators are on. It's even been said that these are maybe training operations for soldiers or for drone operators who are then going to take those drones to the front line, that they're essentially practicing in order to take out Ukrainian soldiers. But certainly it was clearly a civilian who was targeted in that incident and was very lucky to get away with his life. Now, the Russians may actually appreciate that people see that that's going to help spread fear amongst the Ukrainian population about the sort of threat they can see from the sky. But President Zelenskyy also said it's important that people see what the Russians are doing and what sort of threat my people are under.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Dan, you were returning to Kyiv this week. Somebody was making their first visit to Kyiv this week. It was the new Defense Secretary of the uk, Wes Street Sing. Tell us a bit that visit and how it went down.

[Dan Johnson]

Yeah, he actually arrived on my first day, but we had no idea because the diplomats, the politicians, all travel in such secrecy. He had a meeting with Volodymyr Zelensky and I think essentially we heard the same old messages of strong support, encouragement. We are with you. But that was the day after this big round of attacks the night before. More than 20 people killed. So the direct question again from President Zelensky was, well, how do I turn your words of support into actual practical air defence measures that I can use to protect my people? And West Streeting just isn't able to give him the right answers on that. It reverts back to NATO, but primarily to the Americans to provide what Zelenskyy needs. But West Streeting certainly saw the impact of what had happened and what the residents of Kyiv were under in terms of threat. And the hope from the Ukrainians will be that he takes that message away back to the British Prime Minister and to other countries who can make a real difference here.

[Adam Fleming]

And Steve, last question to you. And not to go back over the ground that we went over about escalation or not, but it seems to me that a big theme of this conversation we've just been having, the three of us, is very different from the conversations we would have been having two or three years ago, where we'd be listing towns in the Donbass that were under bombardment by Russian forces. We'd be talking about where the front line is. But it sort of feels like the front line is a bit everywhere now.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Yeah, it's very chaotic, confusing. But one thing that is clear is that four and a half years after Vladimir Putin launched this so called special military Operation Victory, whatever that will look like for Russia, is a long way away. And one thing that's coming through very clearly here, I think, is the sense of disillusionment, disappointment with America, because a year ago there was this hope, this optimism that Donald Trump would put pressure on Ukraine and help deliver to Russia the kind of peace deal that Moscow wanted, basically ensure the capitulation of Kyiv. That didn't happen. And now there seems to be fewer contacts between Moscow and Washington. I mean, last year, Adam, we were in Anchorage for that summit multiple times I covered the visits of Steve Witkoff, Donald Trump's envoy to Russia. That hasn't happened for a long time. So I think the Russians are disappointed that America hasn't sort of stepped in and forced Ukraine to capitulate.

[Adam Fleming]

And some people here in the UK who are allies of the former Prime Minister Keir Starmer, are making the case that the history books will say that Keir Starmer and his allies, like Emmanuel Macron's ability to influence how much momentum there was behind that U.S. russia kind of relationship maybe will be the thing that Keir Starmer will be remembered for, because he got Ukraine sort of back in the game when it looked like they were just going to get a bit steamrollered. Steve, thank you very much.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Thanks, Adam.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dan, good luck with the rest of your posting.

[Dan Johnson]

Thank you. Great to talk to you.

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Meet Keith, loving dad, board game champ, bus driving pro.

[Keith (Bus Driver)]

I drive 65,000 miles in my bus each year. If people knew what I know lives could be saved. Like how? There are some things I simply can't see on my route. The other day a car tried to sneak past me and ends up right in my blind spot. I turn slowly so accident avoided, but no car should be in the blind spot for a 40,000 pound bus.

[Dan Johnson]

It's our roads.

[Keith (Bus Driver)]

It's our safety.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

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[Adam Fleming]

So that's a pretty comprehensive view of the present. This weekend Newscast is going to delve into the past because Old Newscast is back and our kind of theme over the summer for Old Newscast is looking at big, momentous democratic moments in British politics between the years 1997 and 2016. So plenty to choose from. It's going to be a long summer.

[Dan Johnson]

Anyway.

[Adam Fleming]

This weekend we're looking back at the 2010 election with Jo Coburn. So good to catch up with her again. And our very own Nick Ross Robinson from the Today program. Of course, at that point he was the BBC's political editor and he has this quite jaw dropping recollection of his relationship with a very, very important politician of that period.

[Dan Johnson]

I now suddenly have this memory coming back.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

He was the most scared I've been as a political journalist in the sense I thought a leading politician might well throttle me.

[Adam Fleming]

I will leave you to guess which famous politician of the era Nick is referring to there. So part one of old newscast about the 2010 election with Nick and Joe and me will hit your podcast feeds on Saturday with part two following smoothly on Sunday. Speak to you soon.

[Steve Rosenberg]

Bye bye.

[BBC Newscast Announcer]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC.

[Steve Rosenberg]

You've come to the end of Newscast. Some people, and you know who I mean, might say you ooze stamina. Can I encourage encourage you to subscribe on BBC Sounds and you can get in touch with us anytime. Email us at newscast at BBC Co UK. You can WhatsApp us on oh, 301-239-4880.