Barry (Chef) (1:57)

Really? The best technique for tossing a pancake is to raise your pancake. My one's stuck a bit there because it's a bit cold.

Adam Fleming (2:06)

This is not a perfect cooking condition.

Barry (Chef) (2:09)

Edge of the pan.

Adam Fleming (2:11)

Right.

Barry (Chef) (2:11)

And then lightly toss it, not flip it up in the air where it disappears and sticks on the ceiling.

Adam Fleming (2:16)

Okay, but explain to me what lightly is.

Barry (Chef) (2:18)

Just flip of the wrist, but basically so you get it to the edge of the pan.

Adam Fleming (2:22)

Yeah.

Barry (Chef) (2:22)

And just toss.

Adam Fleming (2:23)

You just did that beautifully. Yeah, that's okay. Here we go. Should I give it a go.

Barry (Chef) (2:27)

Yeah, go ahead.

Adam Fleming (2:29)

You see, Too much wrist action.

Barry (Chef) (2:31)

Too much wrist action.

Adam Fleming (2:32)

I'm not sure the microphone picked up the sound of my pancake heading to the. Too much wrist action.

Dominic Casciani (2:36)

Yeah.

Simon Jack (2:36)

You've got to flick it from the far. The far edge.

Adam Fleming (2:38)

Yeah. As Barry said.

Simon Jack (2:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Fleming (2:41)

But then it was a bit of a sort of newscast megamix because Dominic Casciani happened to be in the studio because he'd been doing an item before about Freemasons and the place. So he joined in too. Here, Dom, do you want to have a go? Do you want to swap commentating on the High Court for tossing a pancake?

Simon Jack (2:54)

Here we go.

Adam Fleming (2:55)

You actually are quite. You're quite culinary, aren't you? I know. In your real life. My father had a restaurant, Italian restaurant. Did you serve pancakes in them?

Advertisement Voice (3:02)

Pancakes? An Italian thing.

Simon Jack (3:04)

You do spinach ricotta and roll them up.

Barry (Chef) (3:06)

That's right, yeah.

Adam Fleming (3:06)

Pancakes are Italian.

Barry (Chef) (3:08)

Well, they do do quite a few pancakes dishes and stuff.

Adam Fleming (3:12)

How's Dom doing?

Barry (Chef) (3:13)

Yeah, he's great. You see, he has a knack. You see, it's just a flick of the wrist.

Adam Fleming (3:20)

My wrists were getting a lot of action in that studio. Right, let's flip around some news in.

Weight Watchers Advertiser (3:25)

This episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

Simon Jack (3:29)

Fat Boy Slim and me in the.

Adam Fleming (3:30)

Classroom doing our violin lessons.

Simon Jack (3:32)

I was the tattletale in the class.

Dominic Casciani (3:33)

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that Daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

Adam Fleming (3:39)

Next time in mosque.

Alex Forsyth (3:40)

I feel Delulu with no Sululu.

Simon Jack (3:42)

Take me down the Downing Street.

Adam Fleming (3:44)

Let's go have a tour.

Alex Forsyth (3:45)

Blimey.

Adam Fleming (3:48)

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.

Alex Forsyth (3:49)

And it's Alex in the Westminster studio.

Simon Jack (3:51)

And it's Simon in the newscast studio.

Adam Fleming (3:54)

Alex, I've got to ask, will you be having any pancakes on your late shift as the BBC's political correspondent on duty?

Alex Forsyth (4:00)

No, I think not. I think not. I mean, I haven't got a great flipping action, but also not a great opportunity. So I might have to wait for another day for the pancakes.

Adam Fleming (4:08)

Well, you can have them any day of the year, you know, that's the beauty of choice.

Alex Forsyth (4:12)

Limited to one day anyway.

Adam Fleming (4:13)

Right, Simon, I'm trying to come up with a pancake themed analogy for the labour market statistics that came out today. Flat as a pancake. Or actually not even flat.

Simon Jack (4:22)

Well, pretty flat, to be honest. Weak. There's no doubt that the jobs market out there is very tough. Perhaps harder getting a job than it is flipping a pancake. So what we've seen is that the unemployment rate, that is the percentage of people who are out there looking for a job who can't find one has gone up to a near five year high of 5, 5.2%, a little bit higher than people were expecting. Now that is largely or in part due to the fact that a lot of older workers who said, I don't really want a job, I don't need a job, they've changed their mind and have become job seekers again. So this, if you like the new, the denominator for that percentage has gone up a bit. But I think the really, you know, horrifying, the sort of standout stat in all of this is the unemployment rate among 16 to 24 year olds is over 16 and that's the highest in roughly a decade. And that is the, the thing that a lot of people are focusing on saying that if we can't get people into work by the age of 24, Alan Milburn, the former health Secretary is doing a report on this saying if you can't get a job by 24, you, you run the risk of losing a lost generation because 45 of people who don't get a job by 24 don't get a job for many, many years after.

Adam Fleming (5:38)

So we're in a kind of race against time because a lot of these people will have entered or would have entered the labor market a couple of years ago. So we're that the clock is ticking.

Simon Jack (5:48)

Yeah. And there's a couple of things going on. There's a lot of reticence on the part of employers to hire and that's for a number of reasons. You had the employers, national insurance go up in their budget just about 18 months ago. You've had big increases in the national living wage, particularly high among younger workers. 18 to 20 year olds got a 16 pay rise just over a year ago and getting another 8% coming up in April. So taking on young people, you don't get the discount for taking a chance on youngsters that you used to. And you've got employment rights bill, which gives more guarantees and protections around things like exploitative zero hours contracts, sick pay, unfair dismissal. Add all that together at a time when you had a late budget, economic uncertainty, and that's made a lot of employers sit on their hands and say, you know what, I'm just going to hold off. Add to that it comes at the exact time when a lot of employers are being told maybe you can do with fewer humans and more technology, AI, robotics, automation, and you come to a bit of a kind of, you know, an impasse when it comes to hiring. The good news, such as it is, is that the number of vacancies, number of jobs being advertised, has been falling very, very sharply over the last couple of years. And the last couple of months, it's stabilized a little bit. And this weak jobs report might spur. Will probably spur the bank of England to cut interest rates again, which might give businesses a bit more confidence to get in the hiring mode once again.

Adam Fleming (7:14)

And the reason vacancies matter is because if they're either too high, that means the job openings and the job seekers aren't matching up, or if they're falling too fast, that means the economy's not growing.

Simon Jack (7:26)

Exactly. If the vacancy numbers are falling really fast, it means job employers aren't looking for that many new people, which means the balance of power begins to shift towards the employer rather than the employee, the person who's giving the job rather than. And you've seen that show up in the wage figures because while wages are still growing at 4.2%, that is down on where they were. And if you strip out inflation, which is currently at 3.4%, wages are just about keeping up with inflation, but only just about. But watch this space, because I expect inflation numbers tomorrow to show that inflation is actually falling.

Adam Fleming (8:01)

Okay. Right, Alex, Lots to think about politically there, I suppose, in the short term.

Alex Forsyth (8:06)

What's.

Adam Fleming (8:06)

What's the government saying about lots of people in the business world pointing the finger at them for the increase in unemployment?

Alex Forsyth (8:13)

Well, I think the first thing to say is that they are acutely aware of just how significant this issue is, particularly around young people. You know, I. That's why they've set up this Alan Milburn review to try and work out what's going on and I suppose do something about it. And they do point to a lot of the programs that they've put in place to try and get people back into the workplace. You know, so support for people or trying to encourage people with the right skills and that kind of thing. So they'll point to the actions they say they've taken. But I think politically it's a sort of challenge on two fronts. The first one is, you know, we know what the central, number one mission of this government's been because they've stated it repeatedly, and that's to get the economy moving. And increasingly this year, there's been a focus on the cost of living and effectively, you know, do people feel better or worse off. And when you've got people, particularly young people, struggling to find. Find Jobs in a difficult jobs market that doesn't really work with those two centrally stated missions of the government. And the second one, as you say, Adam, is that this totally allows their political opponents to point the figure at policy decisions that the government has made. And that's exactly what we've heard today from the conservatives, from the Liberal Democrats, pointing to things like the increase in the national minimum wage or the increase in national insurance that employers pay, or even down to some of the rights that the government's put in around workers. So I think politically it's a challenge in it is a challenge the government is aware of and it would say very much attempting to tackle.

Simon Jack (9:40)

I'd just like to ask Alex a question if I could, because what was interesting to me is in the week we've just had is that even Angela Rayner, who was seen by many people as the champion of the Employment Rights Bill of giving people the kind of job security and better wages, the kind of job they could build a life around, pay rent around, raise a family around, even she was saying we've got to look at the intersectionality, I think was the word she used about how this is affecting business. So a kind of tacit admission that maybe they've overdone it a bit on some of the workers rights and workers pay and that it, particularly with young people, may have priced them out of the job market in some. In some scenarios.

Alex Forsyth (10:20)

Yeah, I was really interested. Those comments did get wide pick up, you're right. And I think I'm right in saying that she made them a nighttime economy conference, so. So kind of get surrounded by the very businesses who say they are directly affected by government policy. So it might be one of those moments when the context in which her comments were made is pretty crucial, I. E. The audience that she was directly talking to. Because yeah, Angela Raine has been the champion of the Workers Rights Bill all the way through. But I do think even by government actions there's been an acknowledgement of the pressure that's been facing some sectors. So of course they had to row back on their position around business rate evaluations for pubs in face of quite sustained pressure. There's been pressure from the wider hospitality and retail industry for very much the same kind of territory. So I think they're aware of this and like I say back to that point where they are putting such a lot on this notion of the economy improving and people feeling better off. This is the. The stuff that runs counter to that in many respects. And so I think they know that this is an area that they cannot afford to not do anything on.

Adam Fleming (11:25)

Yeah.

Simon Jack (11:25)

And I did an interview with Jim o' Neill, who's been an advisor to both Conservative and Labour governments and he was saying actually businesses are thinking more about investing in capital like technology, software, automation, AI and less in labor.

Adam Fleming (11:40)

Now there's a good part, labor as in workers as opposed to the party.

Simon Jack (11:45)

As in work as in workers. Now there's a good part to that which is if you can get, you know, economic prospects to improve with the same number of workers, then your productivity on paper goes up.

Adam Fleming (11:57)

And that's something we've always had a problem with.

Simon Jack (11:59)

We're told it's seen as the secret sauce which basically raises living standards. You can have higher growth that inflation, it's considered like a panacea for a lot of ills. But politically, if you get economic growth, which as Alex says, the government has said countless times, it's their number one priority, but that growth is without job creation. If you have jobless growth, then that's a, that's a much more nuanced, you know, political message to deliver.

Alex Forsyth (12:23)

And it's also quite interesting that you've spoken about Simon, I think you coined this rather wonderful phrase about how pre winning power. So during the election campaign, in the run up to it, Labour was sort of speed dating business. And then there was this sense after the first budget with those national insurer, national employer contribution increases that they were sort of ghosted a little bit. And you just wonder about how much work the government will do in to somehow rebuilding the relationship with the businesses who do feel quite bruised by some of the government policies that have been announced so far. Because of course, you know, that's a little bit of what we've seen around pubs, you know, some overtures in that direction, but you just wonder how high that is up their agenda that they're going to have to do some sort of repair work so that businesses have the confidence, that magic word that we hear so much about, to continue to invest in, in workforces as much as anything else.

Simon Jack (13:17)

And with Angela Rayner's comments, I just wonder, you said you're talking to a business audience. I wonder how much of it. Given all the speculation about what's next for the Labour Party, Angela Rayner trying to position herself saying, I get it, don't worry about me. Because a lot of businesses are worried that a change in leadership might lead to, you know what some people say, a lurch to the left. And she's maybe trying to set her credentials saying I hear You.

Adam Fleming (13:39)

I've got two big thoughts here that I will put to both of you. Thought number one, this is always dangerous. In case I forget what number two is, number one is you put like, we get this jobs data a lot. We've seen unemployment creeping up, but there's something about it hitting this number and the tone of how everyone's been talking about it today. But plus the interview that Alan Milburn gave to the Today programme at 10 past 8, talking in really quite apocalyptic terms about the challenge that the country, society and that generation is facing right now.

Simon Jack (14:08)

In my view, the issue is existential and therefore we always think of it as a fiscal problem. It isn't. It's an economic problem, it's a social problem and it's a moral problem. This should be the cause not just for the Labour Party, but for politicians of all types and hues and for the country as a whole.

Adam Fleming (14:29)

Simon, does this feel like a sort of special moment in this long running plot?

Simon Jack (14:34)

I've got to disappoint you and say actually no.

Adam Fleming (14:37)

Okay.

Simon Jack (14:37)

But I think that Alan Milburn's comments did actually really focus people in on the youth unemployment and not in education, employment or training, the neets. And he did speak in apocalyptic terms. He said the standout statistic is that if you don't have a job by the age of 24, then the likelihood that you are on benefits for life, his words, not mine, you know, runs the risk of a lost generation. So I think that people are, you know, thinking that is this is a kind of, you know, jobs emergency. And I think this, combined with his comments this morning, kind of really sort of narrow the focus on it. His report comes out. I think there's a.

Adam Fleming (15:16)

But you don't think this is a sort of epoch defining day?

Simon Jack (15:19)

I don't think for the economy. I don't think this is the day when, you know, no, I don't think this is. I think this is basically a kind of, you know, a boiled frog kind of moment and people are saying it's.

Adam Fleming (15:27)

Another couple of degrees in the pot.

Simon Jack (15:29)

Exactly.

Adam Fleming (15:30)

Then my second thought, and maybe you can do this one, Alex, and feel free to knock it down too, as Simon has just done very diplomatically. If you put this story about youth unemployment together with the story we've all been seeing in the last couple of weeks about the cost and the repayments of student loans, is this becoming a sort of, oh, after decades of politics being about, about making sure pensioners aren't poor and what happens with the triple lock, are we now going to enter a sort of more youth, quakey world of politics where it's like, oh, what about the employment prospects and financial prospects of 24 year olds?

Alex Forsyth (16:02)

Well, I would say actually, God, sorry to knock down your big thought number two, and I'll try and do it in a diplomatic way as well, but I'd say there's been a sort of creeping sense of that for some time. And I think that's just if you look at some of the policy areas that are deemed to affect younger people, perhaps more so things like housing, which has crept up the political agenda in recent years with, you know, successive governments acknowledging what many people now just say is, is a crisis in housing, where young of lots, but not exclusively, a lot of the time is sort of feeling the brunt of that, particularly when it comes to property ownership or high rents, that kind of thing. I think the student loans thing is a new discussion that is feeding into that wider debate. And there are some who've been advocating for some time this question of intergenerational fairness and whether or not it needs more head on tackling what you haven't yet heard from any frontline politicians. I don't think any of them have kind of been politically brave enough to go anywhere near anything like the triple lock. I mean, Nigel Farage did leave that question open when he's been asked about it before. Would reform retain the triple lock? But I think that is still deemed to be, you know, for, for certainly Labour and the Conservatives have been, you know, shied away from that sense. So I think it's sort of crept up the agenda, but you wonder if it might sharpen. And I definitely think there's been more of an increasing focus on this particular issue of economic inactivity among younger people, which hence the Alan Milburn review. And it's also worth saying there's a separ review being carried out by Sir Charlie Mayfield, which is about people who are not working because of health or disability. That's going on alongside this. So I think the government's acutely aware.

Adam Fleming (17:44)

Of this issue, although it's interesting because Charlie Mayfield was sat in the very seat that Simon is sitting in now a few weeks ago when he issued his sort of first set of findings from his review. And actually the stuff there wasn't big bang stuff, it was getting certain employers to be at the vanguard of doing a more nuanced approach to solving the issue of people being ill at work. And it could be things like making it easy, easier for managers to speak to their employee when they're off sick. So actually some of the answers to these big, big social challenges, Simon might end up being quite nuanced and not feel like big bazooka things.

Simon Jack (18:17)

Yeah. I interviewed Charlie Mayfield about this myself.

Adam Fleming (18:19)

Everyone's spoken to Charlie Mayfield.

Simon Jack (18:23)

You'Re right. And I think that what he was trying to get out there is that trying to keep the connection between the workplace and someone who's off sick or maybe sometimes, you know, for an extended period of time and that, you know, keeping that connection is. Otherwise people just drift off and you never see them again. Question I have for both of you, which you'd know better than me, is the. The idea of giving the vote to 16 and 17 year olds, I think plays into this a little bit now. There's a time when labor thought that extending the vote down to 16 would be a slam dunk benefit for them. I just wonder, the longer the problems of youth unemployment go on, whether that is necessarily the kind of huge bonus that they think it might be given, you know, some of the polling data we've seen for younger people.

Adam Fleming (19:08)

Again, I think two things on that. One from my work on antisocial on Radio 4 every Friday, quite often this comes up there is that amongst younger people we're seeing political polarization that tends to be men moving to the right and women moving to the left. That's the, that's the thing that's happening, I think. Do they call that a cleavage in, in demographics and polling? And then the second thing is that actually whenever I've looked at this issue about the youth votes, when I've worked on programs like the Daily Politics with Andrew Neil and BBC2, actually the conclusions are that young people vote the same way as everyone. There's not, there's not that there's young people issues and old people issues. There's just issues. Yeah, everyone has.

Simon Jack (19:48)

Yeah. I wonder though, how young people feel about the absolute sacrosanct nature, the sacred cow status of the triple lock. Because a lot of economists will say that given the demographics of the country and the fact that, you know, the number of over 85 is going to balloon over the next few years, that could be. Becomes unsustainable, you know, fiscally. And then fiscally that becomes a political issue too.

Adam Fleming (20:12)

Thought experiment. They change the terms for the student loan repayments as the quid and the pro quo is reforming the triple lock. You heard it here first. That's not based on any sources about what they're going to do. I'm just wondering, I can imagine if you Wanted to. Wanted. Because if you wanted to talk about sort of rebalancing the intergenerational bargain, that would be. That would be two buttons you could press.

Alex Forsyth (20:34)

It's really interesting, just worth saying. So I did a question, or any questions on exactly this issue not so long ago, and the politicians on the panel were really careful to stress that they didn't think it should be set up as a sort of one versus the other. You know, it doesn't have to be sort of younger people versus older people. And they didn't want the debate to be framed in that way. I guess the question that goes alongside that is, you know, how realistic is that? When you are looking at, you know, the government would argue, constrain public finances over a period, there has to ultimately be a question about who you choose to support.

Simon Jack (21:07)

And it is nuanced because a lot of these younger people are the children of the very older people we're talking about. So, you know, it's not as if it's one versus the other. Families think about the next generation themselves. It's not a kind of like, you know, you know, I don't care about you and you don't care about us. You know, those are difficult.

Alex Forsyth (21:24)

And just to contradict myself, Adam's totally right. I mean, housing I always sort of point to as one of the issues where it affects young people. It's not exclusive to young people. And there will be parents and grandparents who look at their children's position on the housing ladder and have strong views about that, or it may inform their own political views equally. There will be older people renting or struggling to buy who are caught in the housing trap. But I just sort of think, yeah, rather than a sort of revelatory moment where suddenly everyone goes, what about the young people? I just think over time there's just been an increasing awareness that there has been a lot of pressure on young people or younger people in several different ways.

Adam Fleming (21:59)

Right. Simon, you can go off and not have pancakes.

Simon Jack (22:02)

Thank you so much, Adam. Nice to be here. Thank you.

Adam Fleming (22:04)

Now, Alex, talking about all matters, Westminster. Well, actually, Parliament's on recess, it's half term.

Alex Forsyth (22:11)

Yeah.

Adam Fleming (22:12)

So Nigel Farage has done what he often does, which is to step in and fill the vacuum. That's what he did last summer. He's now doing it this spring.

Alex Forsyth (22:18)

Spring, yeah. So, yeah, this is. I think. I think it's the second day in a running in. In a row that we've had some sort of announcement from Reform uk and the one today in a very typical Reform UK style of late, which is to get a big venue and, you know, light it up and have music and lights and stage and lots of people there and all the rest of it. They were announcing what they are calling some positions in their shadow cabinet. But to be clear, they don't officially have a shadow cabinet because they're not the official opposition to the government. That title still belongs to the Conservatives because the conservatives have got 116 MPs, reform have only got 8 MPs. So despite that kind of portrayal for Nigel Farage as trying to cement themselves as the official opposition, they are officially not. Nonetheless, what he was doing was announcing people in his top team who were going to have certain responsibilities for certain policy areas.

Adam Fleming (23:10)

And the top team are Robert Jemrich.

Alex Forsyth (23:13)

Who is going to cover the treasury, be the spokesman for the Treasury, Suella Braverman, she is going to be the spokesperson for education, skills and equality. Richard Tice is going to cover business, trade and energy. And Zia Yousef is going to cover the Home Office.

Adam Fleming (23:29)

And, I mean, there's lots of interesting things you could say. Robert Jenrick actually made his name as somebody who campaigned on immigration. We haven't heard so much about the economy from him.

Alex Forsyth (23:38)

Yeah. And also the other bit that's kind of eye catching on, Robert Jenrick being what Reform are calling a shadow Chancellor, who is officially a Treasury sort of spokesperson, or the person that will be setting Reform's economic policy for the most part, was that it's no secret that lots of people who've been around Reform a lot longer than Robert Generic had their eyes on that job. So Zia Yousef, he has, you know, made no secret in the past that he might be interested in, same as Richard Tice has suggested in the past, he might be interested in that quite prominent role. But it went to Robert Jemerich, who was, of course, until fairly recently, a Conservative Party member. Now, Richard Tice was asked about this during this press conference in Westminster and he said he was. They were all delighted with the jobs that they had. Nigel Farage was saying that they needed people with the right experience in the right roles. And he was making the case that Robert Jenrick, although, yes, he was, you know, most recently, most recently an immigration minister, I think, a Home Office minister before he left government. The point Nigel Farage was making was that he was somebody with government experience. And Nigel Farage, to be fair to him, has been quite open about the fact that Reform needs more experience as part of their attempts to professionalise the party that have been going on for some time, which is part of the case he's made to have brought in former Conservatives. Although I also thought it was notable that of the four senior positions that he announced today, two of those were recently defected Conservatives. Which of course just leaves that party open again to the accusation, accusations from political opponents that they're a sort of Tory light. And that's exactly what we. Or maybe not even a Tory light. But, you know, so the Conservatives are saying, yes, the Tory tribute act, or, you know, the Liberal Democrats said something like 50 Shades of Blue loving or something like. So once again, by choosing to put two recently Conservative Party members in very senior positions in Reform UK so publicly, it. It leaves them wide open to that same suggestion.

Adam Fleming (25:32)

And by the magic of podcasting, we can hear you asking Nigel Farage about that at the Reform event.

Alex Forsyth (25:37)

You have chosen to promote two very recent Conservatives to the first bit of your top team. If you like people that were ministers who were the architects of the policies that you now criticize, why should people believe this party will be any different to what's gone before?

Dominic Casciani (25:55)

Well, I think you'll find these were two people who were ministers, but frankly weren't ministers for very long because they were eased out of their positions or they resigned because of the failure of that government. And I've made it clear that we need experience and there's no way around that, you know, with the best will in the world on this stage today, Richard Zia, myself, we don't have that level of experience. We've not had to deal face to face with the civil service. We've got an awful lot to learn. These guys will help us to learn that. Danny Kruger, of course, is running his own department, getting us ready for government and some of the challenges that we will face. And I think what this shows you is we are taking this seriously. It's also important to recognize that far from becoming The Conservative Party 2.0, every one of the people that have come have held their hands up and admitted the sheer scale of the failure under the watch of the last 14 years, and in particular, the total disappointment and failure of a government under Boris Johnson. And that includes the Boris Wa.

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Adam Fleming (29:12)

Also notable by their absence, some people who've been Reform MPs for quite a long time compared to those newbies. No job in the so called Shadow cabinet for Lee Anderson or Sarah Potchen.

Alex Forsyth (29:22)

Yeah, and also a couple of positions that weren't mentioned. So it was all domestic policy focused with this first announcement today, but no foreign policy spokesperson, no defense policy spokesperson. And Nigel Farage was saying this is sort of the first tranche of announcements that they were having to this new senior team. But yeah, I mean I think there were a few sort of gaps in there at this stage and actually in the room were some of those reform mps who've been around the party for quite a lot longer than some of the conservatives who've recently defected and and joined.

Adam Fleming (29:56)

And not to ask you the sort of question that we would get in a BBC job interview for our own jobs, but why so much editorial time and brainpower devoted to reform unveiling these jobs when Actually, I suspect we might not give quite as much attention to say, the Lib dams or the SNP or the Green Party of England and Wales doing their hr.

Alex Forsyth (30:17)

Yeah, well, there are people who clearly think that reform is getting too much coverage, too much airtime, too much newspaper time, too much promotion. But because of where reform is sitting in the polls, there are others who think that this is a party that says it wants to be in government in a couple of years time and has consistently been topping the polls and therefore it needs scrutiny. And of course, when you've got people appointed to these roles where they are going to have responsibility for shaping policy for a party that claims it wants to be in government in a few years time, then there is a job of scrutiny to be done around that. Now, we didn't get a lot of detail on the policy announcements today. We got a sort of, sort of little flash of the leg in some areas when they talked in rather broad terms to Ella Braverman about, for example, making sure there were people that wanted to go into the trades or getting rid of the Equality act or. But without any real clarity about what they were going to do to replace it. Or again, Robert Jenrick talking about wanting to bring taxes down without any clarity of how or how that would be funded. So maybe some of that more in depth scrutiny is to come when the party brings out its policy agenda. But there is also another bit that's worth saying which is about personalities, because Nigel Farage has rather famously kind of fallen out quite publicly with some senior figures in past iterations of the parties that he has run. And he was asked again today more than once about, you know, how he's going to manage now this team of some quite big personalities and, and whether it's all going to be plain sailing.

Adam Fleming (31:50)

Now, before you go off and not have pancakes, one last bite of the cherry for you.

Alex Forsyth (31:56)

Oh, cherries and pancakes.

Adam Fleming (31:57)

Well, I was trying to get into. There's a plum job open up. I'm just trying to get as many food metaphors in there as I can get as possible. A plum job has opened up in the heart of Whitehall and it's for the role of Cabinet Secretary. So kind of chief civil servant in the country sits there by the Prime Minister when the Cabinet is meeting, involved in all sorts of decisions. A very, very powerful role that has been held by some very influential people in the past, currently vacant because the Prime Minister and the previous holder, Chris Wormald, reached an agreement that Chris Wormold would depart. You've got a story in association With Chris Mason tonight on Tuesday, about one of the front runners to take on that job, Antonio Romeo.

Alex Forsyth (32:36)

Yeah, And. And all credit to Chris that he's done a lot of the sort of background work on this. But Antonio Romeo is currently one of three people who, on a temporary basis, is filling that Cabinet Secretary post. But she's widely tipped to be the front runner to get the gig permanently. And since, really, her name's been in the public frame, there have been lots of competing accounts about her past record because she's had lots of senior positions in government over a long period of time. Now, the Cabinet Office acknowledged that about 10 years ago, when she was working in New York as the Consul General, there was a complaint made about her conduct in that role. Now, the Cabinet Office said it was a single complaint that was assessed and then dismissed. But now the BBC is seeing these documents that suggest, actually several people made allegations about Antonio Romeo's conduct during that time. So you're talking about 2016, 2017, just to give you a bit of context. So some of the things that people said or allegations that people made, said that she behaved in an unreasonable, degrading, demeaning way towards staff. One member of her team said they felt. Felt emotionally battered. Now, what happened, we understand, was that the Foreign Office at the time looked into these allegations and decided there was a case to answer. Then it went to the Cabinet Office and the Cabinet Office said there wasn't a case to answer. And we got a statement from the Cabinet Office about that. They say there was one formal complaint raised nine years ago. It was thoroughly investigated. The allegations were dismissed on the basis there was no case to answer. DEA Antonio went on to hold lots of other senior roles in government. Most recently, she's the most senior civil servant in the Home Office. But as I say, she's now being tipped for this big job. There are people who really support her and say, you know, she's been one of the most inspirational leaders in the civil service that they have worked with. And one government source said that there'd only been selective excerpts of the complaint made about her time in New York that had been resurfaced by disgruntled individuals. So that's the kind of background and context. There are clearly people with differing and competing accounts of her performance in this. In this senior position that she held back in 2016, 2017. But the. The bigger picture that sits behind all of this is that, you know, in recent weeks, the Prime Minister's judgment when it comes to some senior appointments that he has made has been openly questioned. And so when it comes to this next appointment that he's about to make to this really senior government role, then there is just a lot of scrutiny about who might get that job.

Adam Fleming (35:12)

Very interesting. And lots of hard work going on to get that story on air. Right, Alex, what are you doing at 7am a week on Friday?

Alex Forsyth (35:23)

I will probably be on a train somewhere for any questions.

Adam Fleming (35:26)

No, we need you to be available to do a live newscast. Well, what are you doing for the Gorton by election?

Alex Forsyth (35:32)

Of course it is. Of course it is.

Adam Fleming (35:35)

Well, how can you have forgotten?

Alex Forsyth (35:36)

I had forgotten. No, he's just crept round before I realized. My goodness, that's come quick. Yes, well, look, if I can, I would love to join you if I'm not on a train.

Adam Fleming (35:44)

Thank you. Well, let's make it a semi date then, because we're planning to do a live newscast available on BBC Sounds. Will you be able to watch it on iplayer? What the heck. Not on Friday. A week on Friday. So the Gorton and Denton by election is on the 26th of February. On Friday morning, the 27th of February, we will bring you a live newscast extravaganza, we hope, touch wood with the result of that very important by election and hopefully with Alex Forsyth. Fingers crossed, Alex, lovely to catch up with you.

Alex Forsyth (36:15)

Pleasure as ever.

Adam Fleming (36:16)

And that's all for this episode of Newscast. I hope you enjoy tossing pancakes after listening to this episode of Newscast. There's lots of other interesting culinary things going on at the moment, isn't there? Start of Ramadan Lunar New Year. So there's many, many food options. If you want to commemorate this point in the year by eating or equally not. But we've all commemorated it by listening to this episode of Newscast. And that's all. We will be back with another episode very soon.

Simon Jack (36:41)

Bye bye.

Adam Fleming (36:42)

Newscast.

Alex Forsyth (36:43)

Newscast from the BBC.

Chris Mason (36:45)

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 033-01-239480. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.

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Alex Forsyth (37:58)

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