Chris Mason (1:44)

Yeah, April.

Adam Fleming (1:46)

I mean, at the rate the news works these days, you never know exactly. Where actually did you begin the day of the 2000th episode of Newscast?

Chris Mason (1:53)

So I woke up in fantastic Pontypreth in the valleys of South Wales, what about 12 miles north of Cardiff, Had a lovely run before dawn this morning and we were out and about making some pieces about the Senate elections coming up to the Welsh Parliament in May, which are going to be fascinating. Labour under kind of colossal pressure. And then we were in a community centre in Merthyr Tydville, talking to a great bunch of folk about, you know, life in contemporary Wales and how they find things and how they're thinking about things politically and all of that. And news reached us now it was a useful reminder for nerds like us that, you know, news of this political magnitude doesn't necessarily shake every blade of grass in every corner of the uk. That's it. I'm not saying people weren't interested in it, but, you know, there are magnitudes of these things. But then, suffice to say, after my great chat with them, which we'll broadcast at some point, but not today, as it turns out, it was a mad scramble back to Westminster and we covered.

Adam Fleming (2:50)

Quite comprehensively all the events of this morning. For example, Cami Badenok's social media video where she, she said she'd uncovered Robert Jenrick's plot to defect away from the Conservatives, causing as much damage to his Tory colleagues as possible. And then we looked at some of the potential implications and the fact that Nigel Farage had already done one press conference today where he was keeping quite stumm about what was going on. So if you want to hear in great detail how it felt kind of at lunchtime on Thursday, then you can listen to the previous episode of Newscast, which is in your feeds. But this episode we're going to bring you right bang up to date. We're recording at 6:30 on Thursday evening. So we've had Nigel Farage's second press conference of the day, Chris, which is at 4:30.

Chris Mason (3:31)

Yeah. So I scrambled from Paddington Station in London to Reform HQ in Westminster and arrived in the nick of time. And the thing is, we're in Reform's relatively new HQ and it's quite a swanky hq, but the room that they have for news conferences is quite. And they were planning a news conference. We've known about it for the last couple of days. In fact, Najafar has reckoned it was part of the building blocks of the case the Conservatives made to themselves about Robert Jenricks imminent defection, even though Reform argued that it wasn't imminent until Kemi Badenok slightly sort of pushed it in the direction of happening. They were going to be doing a news conference about the cancellation of various local elections in England in May, which is newsy today, no doubt about it, but not quite on the magnitude, news wise of Robert Jenrick's defection. So we all pile in. I must admit I am still, still wearing my thermals, which were very much for, you know, trudging around in the streets of South Wales in January, which, where, you know, it's not exactly kind of Mediterranean.

Adam Fleming (4:30)

It must have been boiling and I.

Chris Mason (4:31)

Was tiny room, sweating buckets in there because it was. But we were properly squeezed in, you know, you couldn't help but read the contents of the screen, of the laptop, of the person next to you. It's a pretty pathetic excuse for reading somebody else's stuff, isn't it? But that's the truth. We're all sort of rammed in there and there's cameras and then there's camera. There's photographers crawling in all fours, you know, you know, like a toddler or a baby before a toddler, like a baby might do to try and get their angles and all the rest of it. And then the extraordinary moment. Cause this is the thing, you know, and no doubt you reflected on this at lunchtime, but there's two things around today which is kind of classic Westminster, if you like. You have the sort of human drama, the farce, the skullduggery, the foul ups and then you have. And we can get to this, you know, what it means for British politics, what it means for the rights of British politics. And the news conference that a couple of hours ago, as we recorded was all of those, was all of those things. So it was the farce of it, of us all crammed into the room. There was incoming Nigel Farage doing a bit of a spiel and talking about what he thought he'd be talking about and then what he's actually talking about and then the most, I mean the most extraordinary moment. I just love these moments because it's a reminder of the sort of human drama at the heart of those, at the heart of politics and the heart of the heart of the. The stories, if you like, of those who lead us or aspire to lead us. So the big moment, the big reveal is know there was a lot of news around this at lunchtime, but actually the pivotal moment of today.

Adam Fleming (5:56)

Well, actually, why don't we let newscasters listen to.

Chris Mason (5:59)

That's a good idea.

Adam Fleming (6:00)

Here is Nigel Farage unveiling his star new signing over quite a long period of time. I will welcome Robert Gener into this room and into Reform uk. He hasn't changed his mind, does he? We can't find him. Is he coming?

Chris Mason (6:31)

Nick? And we still waited.

Adam Fleming (6:35)

It's been a funny. This would be a very funny end of the day. And even that moment, which presumably was just Robert Jenrick being in a room down a corridor and maybe just doing some finishing touches to something and then making his way to the, to the podium, even that, that has become contested at Westminster today. Like what was happening in that moment.

Chris Mason (6:53)

Yes, because the Conservatives, just prior to Robert Jenrick's anticipated arrival in the room had put out some of the stuff, some of their evidence, if you like, that had led them to the conclusion this morning that they would throw him out of the Shadow Cabinet and the party and, and all the. And all the rest of it. In other words, some of the anticipated speech that he would give when he defected. And the Conservatives have suggested that the reason he was late to his own defection is that he was rewriting part of that speech. Now, any questions to Robert Jenrick around the kind of process, I mean process is probably to dignify it with a greater sort of sense of being thought through than it was hour by hour today. But any kind of question to Robert Jenrick about the kind of process of today was sort of brushed away as being, as being insignificant. But the drama of him being, yeah, as I say, late to his own defection rather underlined that sense of how today had come about and how clearly it had come about vastly faster than any of the key players were anticipating. And at the heart of it, and I guess you may have some of the clips from the news conference that you might play, Adam, but at the heart of it for me was a bit of a. If you're not a contradiction, then certainly a curiosity. So you had Nigel Farage saying in the news conference that he thought, you know, if you'd asked him this morning what the likelihood was of Robert Jenrick defecting, it would have been 60, 40 in favor of him joining.

Adam Fleming (8:21)

Because they've been talking since September.

Chris Mason (8:22)

Exactly. But 6040 isn't much greater than the toss of a coin in terms of proportion or likelihood. And yet there was Robert Jenrick at 5 o' clock this evening with this thought through demolition of a party that he woke up this morning a member of, including a kind of drive by on individual members of the Shadow Cabinet Cabinet, the table around which he sat for a meeting of that Shadow Cabinet yesterday. And so you think. So either, you know, it's all happened rather quickly and it could still have been months away and there's something in that, I think, and. Or he has rushed to a decision that he wasn't quite ready to make. And yet he was of this disparaging view of so many of his own colleagues while sitting around a table with them as recently as this week, and was an away day for the Conservative Party, I'm told, last week, where they were talking about election strategy and all sorts of things that you'd expect a party to do when they get together in private. And there he was, I am told, by Conservatives and you Might say they would say this, wouldn't they? But making copious notes, etc. Etc. Nothing wrong with that when you're the Shadow Justice Secretary, but raises a few eyebrows when a few days later you're saying that you want Nigel Farage to be the next Prime Minister.

Adam Fleming (9:42)

So Robert Jenrick was found by Reform uk. He was ushered to the Lactone where Nigel Farage had been speaking a few minutes before. And then with Nigel Farage sat at a table to his left hand side. Robert Jenrick then launched into, as what you described there, Chris, a demolition of the Conservative Party now, in the past, in the future, including criticism of some of his former colleagues.

Helena Merriman (10:02)

The Conservative Party needed to change fundamentally, starting by acknowledging the state of Britain and owning up to the role we played in getting Britain to this point. I respect Kemi, but on all those issues we were in different places. Let me be clear. They've doubled down. I can't kid myself anymore. The party hasn't changed and it won't. The bulk of the party don't get it. They don't have the stomach for the radical change that Britain needs in opposition. It is easy to paper over these cracks, but the divisions, the delusions are still there. And if we don't get the next government right, Britain will likely slip beyond the point of repair. Everything is on this. Everything is on this decision. I can't in good conscience stick with a party that's failed so badly, that isn't sorry, that hasn't changed, that I know in my heart won't, can't deliver what's needed. That is why I resolved to leave.

Adam Fleming (11:21)

And also Chris, the colleagues that he mentioned by name were Mel Stride, who's now the Shadow Chancellor, But Robert Jenrick said when he was the Working Pension Secretary in the previous Government, he'd failed to get a grip of the burgeoning welfare bill, which he now criticizes from position. And Robert Jenrick also pointed the finger at Pretty Patel, currently Shadow Foreign Secretary, previously the Home Secretary. And he said that she was responsible for, or partly responsible for the huge wave of immigration that came in after Covid under Boris Johnson, and also that she was sort of in denial about any responsibility for it. And then he talked about this moment and the discussion they'd had in the Shadow Cabinet. Maybe it was the meeting they had yesterday where they talked about, oh, do we think Britain is broken? And he said he was one of the few people in the room that said, yes, it is. Everyone else said, no, it wasn't. And so that has now become Conservative Party policy. And then he said there was a third group of people who said, yeah, it is, but we can't say it is because we're the ones that broke it. Yeah, it was a long, long, long, long list of gripes.

Chris Mason (12:17)

It was. And, and that emptying out in public in front of the cameras of the sort of thing that us reporters will attempt to get and sometimes piece together from background chats that we have with folk. But this was, of course, you know, a mom. Defection is a moment that the figures in the departing party will regard as treachery. And the argument that sometimes the defector will make is that, you know, they're true to their principles and their previous party has changed or whatever. What struck me about Robert Jenrick in that news conference was that he decided to go much, much further than you might argue is necessary. He would argue he was just being authentic and reflecting his authentic frustrations with his now former party. But he chose to much, much further than he might have done and in particular chose to personalize his critique around some of the folk who he sat around the Shadow Cabinet table with just yesterday. And there's a wider point, I think, Adam, which is this. You know, he was critical of some of those individuals. He was critical of some other Conservative MPs as well, which makes you wonder how viable, you know, his leadership of the Conservative Party would have been if he'd beaten Kemi Badenok to the job. Now, he might argue his, you know, shadow cabinet would have looked rather different, but he was still very critical about where, if not the centre of gravity, then certainly the views of quite a lot of Conservative colleagues were relative to where he is. So I just think that's interesting given how recently he was seeking to be a Conservative leader. And then there is the question of what Nigel Farage chooses to do with Robert Jenrick, what Robert Jenrick himself chooses to do within reform. You know, the parliamentary moments won't be as frequent because they are a very small part parliamentary party. And then Nigel Farage has to wrestle with this and it's becoming a cliche, but it's a cliche because there's, there's something in it as a, as a critique of where reform are, that, you know, this critique that they are the conservatives 2.0, because there was this burst pipe of Conservatives heading in reforms direction, including ones who were in the last Conservative government that was turfed out spectacularly. And that, you know, that is increasingly tricky, I think, for Nigelfarage. He said intriguingly today, and he is the Master of creating intrigue because that throws forward a momentum around attention. He said intriguingly today, that next week, I think next Tuesday, they are planning to unveil a Labor defector again. Let's see who it is and of what seniority, et cetera, et cetera. And he did point out, and I had noticed this yesterday, and it's just intriguing, yesterday they had a defection from the Green Party in a. From a council at local authority counsellor. So they're trying to begin to make an argument about the sort of breadth of their appeal. But it is undeniably true that it points principally in one direction at the moment, and that is arguably limiting. But as I've said before, again, because I think, you know, it's a reasonable judgment, that kind of, you know, conservative 2.0 critique or whatever, from Nigel Farage's perspective, is a nice problem to have. Doesn't mean it's not a difficult problem, but it is a nice problem to have because, you know, the momentum, the magnetism of reform, particularly from former Conservatives, is real. And that is quite a thing to witness when you think of the pedigree and the previous scale and the history of the Conservative Party. And right now it is hemorrhaging on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, names towards reform. So that kind of remolding of the British right happening before our eyes.

Adam Fleming (15:59)

What about this theory during the rounds that Robert Jenrick was very ambitious and he'd realized that his previous plan, he may have had to challenge Kemi Badenok for the leadership after potentially disappointing results of the Conservatives in May, that was receding because Kemi Badenok's performances and her reputation was improving, and so that that door was closing to him.

Chris Mason (16:21)

That's certainly a analysis I've heard from various Conservatives privately this afternoon, including some who liked Robert Jenrick, were loyal to Robert and had backed Robert Jenrick in the leadership race, that, you know, he had a certain momentum perhaps in the first year or so, perhaps a little under the first year of Kemi Badenoch's leadership, because the critique was she was kind of nowhere in terms of her public presence. Her argument was, you know, she'd gone away to do some big thinking about the party and, as she told us on newscast, make sure it survived as a financially viable concern. And Robert Jenrick was doing social media videos and chasing fair dodgers on the London Underground, et cetera, et cetera. The argument that some make within the Conservative fold is that in their view, Robert Jenrick had didn't have a great autumn. Some felt that his party conference speech was, as one put it, a bit of a joke. You might remember he was waiting judges wig and whatever. And so goes the argument of some, as I say, including some who liked him and had backed him, that Kemi Badenok found her mojo and found her kind of zeal, if you like, in the job. And the view of Conservatives across the piece was that they were really impressed with her performance in the autumn, both the conference speech then her Prime Minister's questions performances. So arguably the sense that Robert Jenricks rise to the Conservative leadership was, if not inevitable, then highly likely and could come pretty soon. The likelihood of that dialed down, it felt a bit. Now Mr. Jenrick argues this conversation with Nigel Farage had been going on since September, so including at the time that he was waving that wig around, et cetera, et cetera. Now people might think oh well, you know, how come it took him however long that is ago? Four, five, four, five months. And there's a live question about, you know, at what point was he certain and do you not go at that point? And clearly it would appear he was not certain this morning until Kemi Badenok gave him a sort of shove out of the. A shove out of the door. I think it is also worth acknowledging on a human level. I think I've said this before on newscast, but it's worth saying again, most people's in politics, most people in politics at Westminster have an association and a longevity of association with their political party that will be longer than their marriage to their spouse, even if they've been married for 20, 30, 40 years, because so many politicos have been members of their party since they were teenagers. That was the case with Robert Jenrick self deprecating remark about being one of the only Tories in Wolverhampton when he was a teenager in the late 1990s. So I think to be fair to those who choose to defect, it is a massive thing to do on a human psychological level as well as all of the fraying of friendships that goes with it alongside that kind of battle around in your own mind around how you see the world and how your party might be changing or how you are changing. And Robert Shenrich long made an argument about how his politics has been on something of a journey. And I remember that I covered his by election in Newark in Nottinghamshire in 2014 where you know, there was that label about Robert generic suggesting that, that he didn't really believe in much, didn't really have much to say, was seen as a classic Cameroonian conservative. He argues that when he went into the Home Office, he was, if you like, radicalized about how, in his view, government doesn't work and in particular, the immigration system is a farce. And so, yeah, quite the journey for him sitting there just a few hours ago, as we record saying he wants Nigel Farage to be the next Prime Minister and how that relationship works and as I say, what role he is given and what does the future look like for reform beyond Nigel Farage? We're getting ahead of ourselves here, but, you know, he's a big and substantial figure who we know has had previous leadership ambitions and a desire to lead his country. So all of those sort of fascinating questions tumbling towards us.

Adam Fleming (20:09)

And then a few hours ago, when we were recording the first episode of newscast on Thursday 15th January, we were speculating about what is the. What's the headline that you could come up with? That's a pun on a detective name for Cami Badenok's detective work that she did to work out that Robert Jennerick was going to defect. We had a suggestion from newscast producer Miranda. You could say the Conservative Party's gone from Broad Church to Unhappy Valley.

Chris Mason (20:33)

That's very good.

Adam Fleming (20:34)

And also Wayne from Waterlooville says, how about Inspector Montalbadnock?

Chris Mason (20:39)

That's quite good, Wayne.

Adam Fleming (20:40)

And the BBC control room, who are our colleagues who helped us go live on the BBC News Channel at lunchtime today, they said, Kemi Baden Doyle.

Helena Merriman (20:48)

Boom.

Adam Fleming (20:49)

Very good.

Chris Mason (20:49)

Yeah, yeah, very good, very good. But, yeah, I mean, that's, you know, everything about today from that grainy video that Kemi Badenok had rattled off rather quickly at home this morning before she had to dash to a. The airport to fly. To fly to Scotland because she's been doing some campaigning ahead of the Scottish elections to Nigel Farage, you know, also on the road, and then flying back to London. I mean. Yeah, well, I just. Just incredible. And the thing that I'm desperate to try and find out, even though it's kind of trivial in the grand scheme of things, things, but it is part of the story of. Clearly part of this story is precisely what was the chain of events that flushed this out. Even though you might think it's sort of classic Westminster tittle tattle, it has consequence around what's been rushed, what has not been properly thought through as a result of the. The tactics of. Of DCI Badenoch or. Or. Or whatever name we're going for.

Adam Fleming (21:50)

Kemi Montalbadinok is my winner. Right, Chris? Well, you're obviously my winner because it's great to hear your analysis of such a big moment. So thank you very much, Tara.

Chris Mason (21:58)

Thank you.

Adam Fleming (21:58)

And that's all for this episode of Newscast, your second helping on Thursday 15th January and your 2000th helping overall. Thank you for listening either today or for the last few years. We'll be back with another episode very soon.

Chris Mason (22:10)

I've just thought, when will our. 20.

Adam Fleming (22:13)

26. 26 episodes.

Chris Mason (22:16)

Time. Yeah. Go down.

Adam Fleming (22:17)

Answer.

Chris Mason (22:18)

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Adam Fleming (22:18)

Bye bye.

Chris Mason (22:21)

Oh, crikey, I've just dropped my microphone.

Adam Fleming (22:24)

Newscast.

Chris Mason (22:24)

Newscast from the BBC.

Adam Fleming (22:26)

You've come to the end of newscast.

Chris Mason (22:29)

Some people, and you know who I.

Adam Fleming (22:30)

Mean, might say you ooze stamina. Can I encourage you to subscribe on BBC Sounds? And you can get in touch with us anytime. Email us@newscastbc.co.uk, you can WhatsApp us on 0301-239-480.

Helena Merriman (22:52)

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC or wherever you get your podcasts.