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- [00:00]
Simon Jack
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
Adam Fleming
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- [00:36]
Promotional Voice
Are you ready to embark on a journey of self discovery? Ride along with a father and son across America's 1960s northwest in this BBC full cast dramatization of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Persig. This is a powerful examination of how we live and a breathtaking meditation on how to live better. Evil spirit insane from a world without life or death, he has come to take Chris Start listening to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance Available to purchase wherever you get your audiobooks.
- [01:13]
Adam Fleming
Hello, we're going to start with some news of a bonus newscast listening opportunity. We're going to be on Radio 4 on Wednesday 28th January at 11 o' clock in the morning. And it's quite funny because we thought, has there been so much news already this year we could do the newscast review of the year 11 months early. So we're going to try and see if that joke will sustain a whole 45 minutes of radio on Radio 4. So you can listen to that. Or first of all, you could listen to a classic episode of Newscast which is coming your way right now.
- [01:45]
Laura Bicker
Newscast, Newscast from the BBC Fat Boy.
- [01:48]
Joe Pike
Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.
- [01:50]
Simon Jack
I was the tattletale in the class.
- [01:52]
Promotional Voice
Can I have an apology, please?
- [01:53]
Laura Bicker
I trust almost nobody.
- [01:55]
Joe Pike
Then Daddy has to sometimes use strong language.
- [01:57]
Adam Fleming
Next time in Moscow.
- [01:59]
Joe Pike
I feel delulu with no Salulu.
- [02:01]
Simon Jack
Take me down to Downing Street.
- [02:03]
Joe Pike
Let's go have a tour.
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Simon Jack
Blimey.
- [02:10]
Adam Fleming
Hello, it's Adam in the Newscast studio and we're doing a bit of a throwback today because one of the major news stories in British politics today is about pubs and how much they pay for business rates. So we thought we would reopen the old Newscast pub, which has been shuttered for several years now. The Rat and Parrot. It's open again. And just to recreate the whole pub atmosphere, I'm now going to wander around and see who I meet and and what interesting news stories they can bring us. And who is that? I see a table by the Door. It is business editor Simon Jack who is here to bring us news of the government. U turn on business rates for pubs, Simon. Cheers.
- [02:51]
Simon Jack
Hello, Adam.
- [02:52]
Adam Fleming
Please can we go back to business rates school again before we dive into today's news?
- [02:56]
Simon Jack
So, business rates, the best way to think about them, I think, is like council tax for businesses and it's the rates they pay to make use of the amenities, the water, the parking, the blah, blah, blah, from which they benefit. And for that they pay an annual charge. And it's made up of two things. There's a percentage of the value, the rateable value of the property. So you apply that percentage, or the multiplier as it's known, to the rateable value of the property and you get your business rate bill for the year. Now, what happened in the last budget is Rachel Reeves, with some fanfare, announced that she was going to lower business the multiple multiplier bit, the percentage bit, and said this is going to be the lowest rates in a generation. But there was a sting in the tail because that very night the rateable value of the property all went up. Well, not all of them, but a large number of them went up by a lot, easily eclipsing the reduction in the multiplier rate. Net result much, much higher bills for loads of businesses. Loads all, basically all businesses.
- [03:58]
Adam Fleming
And it's because the rateable value which went up by a lot is decided by a separate organization, which is not the Treasury. It didn't seem like they'd to the.
- [04:06]
Simon Jack
Valuation office came up with this. And it does look as if the left hand wasn't talking to the right hand here. So the net result was actually she announced lower rates. In fact, what everyone got was higher business rates, most people.
- [04:17]
Adam Fleming
And at the same time, some Covid era support was withdrawn finally.
- [04:21]
Simon Jack
Correct. So basically during COVID era there were discounts, the business rates to keep businesses alive during that period that has been tapering off over time. It was reduced to the 75% discount, came down to 40% last year. The 40% discount on rates exp going to zero come April. So you've got all these things happening at once. Net result, perfect storm for many businesses. And that's why the pub owners led the backlash against this. They're not the only people affected, but they were the most perhaps effective in voicing their concerns. In fact, they were banning lots of labor mps barring them from their local pubs. And it's one of those things that, you know, the chancellor admitted today, pubs have a special place in their communities and, you know, you go to a pub quite regularly in your local town or village, if it closes down, you notice the local carpet fitter, you probably go there once every three years, you don't notice that so much. So they punch above their economic weight in political terms.
- [05:19]
Adam Fleming
And also pubs have been dealing with the things that every business is dealing with, which over the last few years was increasing energy bills and in the last year was an increasing wage bill because of the increase in employers, national.
- [05:31]
Simon Jack
Insurance and indeed an increase in the national living wa, particularly for younger people, which has seen some very substantial increases. And things like pubs, hospitality tend to employ quite a lot of people and quite a lot of young people. So they were disproportionately affected by that and which hurt a lot of their bottom line.
- [05:50]
Adam Fleming
So I don't, I think we're up to now six factors, aren't we? I don't know what a six, six tuple whammy is. So pubs were facing a six tuple whammy, which I've just invented. You came into this studio a couple of weeks ago to tell us this U turn change of position tweak was on the cards.
- [06:05]
Simon Jack
Yeah.
- [06:05]
Adam Fleming
What, what's that actually amounted to now.
- [06:07]
Simon Jack
That it's so what they' Pubs are facing a on average 76% rise in their rates bill over three years now. The government has already created a little fund, a kitty to try and smooth out the edges of that. So it staggers it over time. So rates bills next year in April were going to go up basically by a maximum of 15%. It was capped to 15% less if you're smaller, more if you're bigger. But 15% is the average. Today's package says we're going to knock that off. We're going to apply a 15% discount to your rates bill due in April and we're going to freeze that for two years and in the meantime we're going to think a bit more about how we value these things generally. So good news, but bought herself a bit of cheer at the bar with pubs, but it doesn't apply to the rest of the hospitality sector. Hotels were facing even higher rates bill rises, so are restaurants and indeed the entire rest of the high street sector are all facing these bills. She said this is, this package is just for pubs and as I say, she thinks that pubs are special, they.
- [07:11]
Adam Fleming
Deserve different treatment and it's temporary because this 15% discount is this year and then, well, it's frozen.
- [07:19]
Simon Jack
Then it is frozen for two years in real terms. So it'll Rise along with inflation. And by the end of the three year period, they'll have another go at looking at the methodology by which they value the pubs. So they've. She's bought herself some time on the pub front.
- [07:33]
Adam Fleming
Yeah.
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Simon Jack
But I can tell you that the people who aren't included in today's package are feeling like they've been left out in the cold.
- [07:39]
Adam Fleming
And also in the long term, the treasury will be confronted with this again in three years and they could end up in the same place they could.
- [07:45]
Simon Jack
Be, unless they change the way they value the actual properties. And at the moment, you know, pubs get valued not just on their premises, the size of it, their value, but also how profitable they are. And some people feel that if I do well, I get punished for it. So there's a lot of moving parts here. In the short term, I think it's fair to say that the pub sector generally feels they've got a pretty good deal. There's a sigh of relief on this. But in making friends in that sector, in a way, she's made a lot of new enemies in the sectors that aren't included in this package.
- [08:17]
Adam Fleming
And I suppose this will be a test of does the British political establishment feel as emotional about restaurants and hotels as it does about pubs? And if they actually end up feeling just as emotional or just as responsible, well then actually there'll be a U turn on restaurants and hotels.
- [08:35]
Joe Pike
Well, let's see, it won't.
- [08:36]
Simon Jack
Well, these new rates bills don't come into effect. Both the discounted one for pubs and the non discounted ones for restaurants, hotels, etc. And the rest of the high street don't come into effect until April. So in theory there's some time if they need to, to have a look at this again. But you know, boy, you know, another climb down, you know, you know, you know better than I do that you've probably covered quite a few of these in the last. Which adds to the weight of some people, including some of her influential MPs, her own colleagues, in fact, you know, cabinet members saying let's try and get things right the first time.
- [09:10]
Adam Fleming
Although I wonder, I'm now using my very dormant business brain, is there something about the profitability and the margins here that actually do hotels and restaurants make more money? That means they could soak up a bigger business rates bill and actually it's just that pubs exist on a sort of like kind of pretty threadbare profit margin.
- [09:31]
Simon Jack
I don't, I don't think there's any evidence for that. If you talk to Tom Kerridge, the famous restauranteur, he's been quite vocal about this. They haven't got any help. He runs. He also runs a pub. And some people saying, well, hang on a second, my pub's also a restaurant. But it all depends on how you're registered with your local authority and what have you. And remember, business rates money goes 50% to the local authority, 50% to central government. And I should say this package is for pubs in England only. Although there is something people will know as a regular listener, the Barnett formula, which means that it gets, you know, proportionally applied to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well.
- [10:10]
Adam Fleming
Simon, thank you.
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Simon Jack
Thank you, Adam.
- [10:12]
Adam Fleming
Right, I'm now gonna stand up, wend my way towards the bar where sitting there is political correspondent Joe Pike. Hello, Joe.
- [10:20]
Joe Pike
Hi, Adam.
- [10:21]
Adam Fleming
Do you want to just round up the pubs news? What's the politics of that? That U turn on business rates for pubs?
- [10:27]
Joe Pike
It is awkward, the fact that Rachel Reeves has been at a pub in South London today that she wasn't pious.
- [10:35]
Adam Fleming
That she wasn't banned from.
- [10:36]
Joe Pike
Exactly. And with a sort of. I think she was making a gin and tonic, it looked like sipping a gin and tonic. I think that shows she wants to communicate, she has heard and is listening. But this is a climb down. It is a partial U turn. And actually there are people in the treasury who've told me it was almost instant after the budget that their number crunchers realized that something was wrong, they hadn't done the calculations right and that they would need to act. It's taken them. Well, not as long as some of their other partial U turns, but they said it's taken them a few more weeks after we knew they were making changes because they wanted to get. Get it right, get the numbers right. And so now they have made these changes, and certainly for MPs who are very worried about music venues and pubs in their community, communities which are not just a sort of economic benefit to a constituency, but also cultural and social. I think those Labour MPs are happier today.
- [11:33]
Adam Fleming
And as I was just saying to Simon, we will discover how much clout the other sectors, like restaurants and hotels, who are not included in this climb down, how much they have and whether they can force a similar climb down for them. So that'll be interesting to see.
- [11:45]
Joe Pike
Absolutely. The Liberal Democrats in particular have said, yeah, this is good, but what about everyone else on the high street? The Tories view today is. Is that it? Those are the words that Mel Stride, the Shadow Chancellor, used in the Commons and some of his MPs on the Tory backbenches think that this climb down clarification partial U turn is a little bit late for some pubs and publicans who've already looked at the numbers and thought actually this is just not going to work for me in my business.
- [12:12]
Adam Fleming
Right, let's talk about the other story then. And this is reforms to how property is owned in England and Wales. And I suppose we should, like we did with Simon and what is business rate? So we should do a bit of, bit of definitions first. So freehold and because this is different in Scotland, freehold is basically where you own the land and the property pretty much in perpetuity. Leasehold is when you have a lease to the actual land on which your property is built. And that can be like 100 years or in some cases much, much shorter. But it means you don't really own your property, not forever.
- [12:47]
Joe Pike
You can live it in it for a limited number of years subject to a lease from a freeholder. And it's controversial because in particular ground rents in recent years in some small number of cases seem to have been rising and people don't get anything for the ground rent. It's not like a service charge where you might have somebody cleaning your hallway or washing the windows. Ground rent is something you don't get anything for. And there's been controversy around that in England and Wales for a while. Labor making commitments to try and reform. Well, yeah, I mean it has been around for, for centuries and labor saying it's a sort of feudal system in their sort of rhetoric. There are about 5 million leasehold homes in England and Wales and we know that ground rents were already abolished for most new leasehold homes by the conservatives back in 2022. But existing leasehold properties, well they, the ground rent still exists for them. Right, so what's happened today is that Keir Starmer announcing this in a tick tock, the first we think government policy to ever be announced on that social media platform has said we're going to cap that ground rent at £250 a year in about 40 years time that will be reduced to a peppercorn rent, I. E. Almost nothing. And there are also other reforms including making service charges which are also controversial, making it clearer what they are on bills and also helping renters and leaseholders challenge unfair service charges.
- [14:22]
Adam Fleming
So this is the Labour government building on something that the Tory government did but didn't do to this extent.
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Simon Jack
Yeah.
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Joe Pike
And there had been worries, concerns from some on the Labour benches that they wouldn't go as far as they have done now, there are campaigners on both sides who are unhappy today. There are certainly people who represent leaseholders who say, 40 years until there's a peppercorn rent. I don't want to wait 40 years. Why don't you just do it immediately? But on the other side, there are people who represent professional freeholders, investors, who say that this is wholly unjustified and it damages the UK's reputation around being a sort of safe, stable investment location. If I've invested in this property, and then later down the line legislation means that that is not a great investment.
- [15:15]
Adam Fleming
And also, just in terms of where we are in this becoming law pipeline, what they've done today is publish the draft legislation. So there's a big consultation on that, which will last a few months and then it's got to wend its way through both Houses of Parliament where it can be amended and have extra things added to it, depending on what' happening in politics at that point.
- [15:34]
Joe Pike
Absolutely. And there are. There are, of course, quite a few landlords in, in Parliament, in both Houses of Parliament. Maybe they weren't in the Commons today because certainly from what I heard from watching the Housing Minister Matthew Pennecook's statement, there didn't seem to be many people hugely objecting. I say most MPs seemed vaguely supportive, although maybe there were others who were far more concerned, just hadn't turned up to the Commons at that moment.
- [16:03]
Adam Fleming
Now, Joe, I was watching you on the 6 o' clock news last night and you were in Gorton and Denton, the upcoming by election, and there was a great bit when you did your piece to camera, which is when you were talking to the camera and over your shoulder was. Was it a Chinese restaurant called Denton Delights?
- [16:17]
Joe Pike
Yes, apparently I didn't go in it, but it's a. Well, you were working, of course, but it was. It was absolutely packed and apparently it is a. A well known, highly regarded Cantonese restaurant.
- [16:29]
Adam Fleming
Ask them what they think about their business rates. But you had enough on your plate?
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Joe Pike
Yes, I had enough.
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Adam Fleming
Also, other restaurants serving other cuisines are available in that constituency. But have you got any delights from Denton you could bring us?
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Joe Pike
It was fascinating to speak to a lot of people who were undecided, who were frustrated about local issues. A lot of shopkeepers very angry about the cycle lanes being put through. One part of the. Of the constituency.
- [16:55]
Adam Fleming
Is that the responsibility of the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, perhaps.
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Joe Pike
But they were very frustrated because it's like you're putting in cycle lanes you're taking away our car parking spaces. We can't get parked. Our customers can't get parked. In the butchers and in the. The barbershop I was in, they were like, why is this happening? This really is impacting our bottom line. A lot of awareness of reform, but it is. It's a reasonably diverse constituency. The last census the recorded the population was 28% Muslim. And there are four parties that got the last general election more than 10%. They were Labour, Reform UK, the Green Party and the Workers Party. The Workers Party being quite a minor party led by former Labour MP George Galloway, but one that in by elections and some elections has seemed to do well in areas with large Muslim populations.
- [17:53]
Adam Fleming
But interesting, four parties getting above 10%. That's quite unusual in a British or an English seat, isn't it?
- [18:00]
Joe Pike
Yeah. And the Conservatives and the Lib Dems ran too. It seems to be reasonably open at the moment and also likely to be one of those contests especially it's a by election where all the parties are going to put all of their resources into it, where you may see a lot of squeeze messages and the squeeze.
- [18:18]
Adam Fleming
Messages saying, don't vote for those other guys because there's only two parties that can win here, so vote for us.
- [18:22]
Joe Pike
Exactly. It's not.
- [18:24]
Adam Fleming
Which is normally a classic Lib Dem leaflet, isn't it?
- [18:26]
Joe Pike
It is. It's not just getting the electoral data, the campaigning door knocking data, on what you'd like, you're an Adam Fleming voter, but also like, maybe you're not that keen on Adam, but you really don't want Simon Jack and therefore we're saying if you want to avoid Simon Jack taking of this constituency, the safest bet, even if you're not keen on him, is to. Is to back at it.
- [18:49]
Adam Fleming
Thanks for making that so personal. But in terms of Gorton and Denton, by election news today, on Tuesday, Reform have announced their candidate and it's an interesting character.
- [18:59]
Joe Pike
Interesting character. Matt Goodwin, who is. Was an academic, sort of academic turned activist. He's a GB news presenter, he's quite prominent on social media. Some other parties have already criticized Reform for not picking a local candidate. However, Reform have said in their press release and put this pretty high up, that Matt Goodwin's family is from Manchester. His grandfather worked full time in a Manchester steel factory. He went to Salford University. He worked throughout his degree in even delivering fast food in the Gorton and Denton area. So them trying to really sort of magnify his local connections. He of course, is a very experienced communicator we don't know yet what he'll actually be like. Like as a. As a door to door sort of doorstep campaign. That's a slightly different skill, but we'll find out soon, I'm sure.
- [19:49]
Adam Fleming
And should you say. Or should I say the bit about when we have a list of all the candidates, they'll be available on the BBC News website.
- [19:55]
Joe Pike
Shall we mention the Workers Party candidate as well?
- [19:57]
Adam Fleming
Yes.
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Joe Pike
There's another candidate in the last 24 hours has been unveiled and that is the Workers Party candidate. That's Councillor Shabazz Sawa. So he is already a councillor in the Long Sight ward in the. What is it, the west of the patch. He got elected in 2024. He seems to be pretty active, so he's a local man. And George Galloway said, I'm not going to run, but we've got this local councillor, Shabazz Sawa, who's running, so he, I'm sure also will be pretty active. Still waiting for, of course, the labor candidate. Of course, yeah, that, that process is underway. Interviews today and then I'm sure we'll get the Green candidate. They are arranging events in the constituency and then out of the party. It's a by election. There may be 15 candidates possibly.
- [20:46]
Adam Fleming
Right. And when we get a list of all those candidates, that will of course be available on the BBC News website so everyone can see everyone who's running in Gorton and Denton. Joe, thank you very much.
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Joe Pike
Thanks, Adam.
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Adam Fleming
And now I'm going to be one of those annoying people who goes to the pub and sits and has a phone conversation on FaceTime out loud, because my next guest is nowhere near the rat and parrot, because it's Laura Bicker, our China correspondent. And I actually spoke to her earlier to get a bit of a preview of the Prime Minister's trip to China, which is about to get underway, because as you heard in the last episode of Newscast, Chris Mason is on his way there now. So here's my conversation with Laura Bicker. Laura, hello.
- [21:28]
Laura Bicker
Hello, Adam. How are you doing?
- [21:30]
Adam Fleming
Very well, thank you. So Chris is getting on a plane.
- [21:33]
Joe Pike
Hello.
- [21:34]
Adam Fleming
Soon. Ish. Don't know exactly what his travel details are, but what sort of itinerary awaits the Prime Minister and his guests?
- [21:42]
Laura Bicker
So, from what we understand, we know he's going to meet President Xi at the Great hall of the People. So there will be a handshake between President Xi and the UK Prime Minister. We know there's a big business delegation from both sides, so I expect those two sides to sit down and hash out the final details of a deal. I am told that there are multiple deals to be announced, so we'll watch out for that. I think he's going to get a nice tour of the Forbidden City, which is lovely. Although I have to say, at this time of year, Adam, it is absolutely Baltic. So I hope that everybody coming is completely wrapped up. We went out the other day, it was minus. Well, with wind chill. It said it was minus 19. So it gives you an expectation. But I think when it comes to what we are watching for from the Beijing perspective in the last couple of months, I mean, I've just talked about how cold it is. This is not a welcoming city in winter. This is not your kind of winter destination. And yet in the last two months, we've had this parade of world leaders from France, South Korea, Canada, Finland in the last 24 hours. And we've got the German chancellor coming next month. And Beijing is allowing this to happen and framing it as nations coming to China as a predictable, reliable partner. In contrast to the United States, where Donald Trump threatens tariffs, China is offering deals. And I think when it comes to that contrast, I expect Beijing to do that again. And I think obviously we've already heard in interviews that Sir Keir Starmer does not want to choose between China and the United States. This visit is not about that. This is about the trade between the UK and Beijing and it has nothing to do with the United States. But I do expect China to try to frame it. We've already heard from statements today that they're saying that this because UK is coming here in turbulent times. So I expect more of that over the coming days.
- [23:46]
Adam Fleming
And I suppose all those other world leaders have come with their own particular relationships with America and with China. Each, each country is quite unique. So, for example, Mark Carney, he is much tougher on Trump, even though he's much more geographically closer to Trump. And also he, like Canada, hadn't really had much of a relationship with China. So he's, he's not a sort of of cut and paste version of Keir Starmer, is he? That it's very different.
- [24:12]
Laura Bicker
Canada blazed the trail, I think, when, when they came here. Because if a country that was so in a deep freeze with China, that had one of the worst relationship of any part of the Western world with China can make their way back, then I think what it shows other nations is there is a way forward. Now, I have been speaking to business leaders today. What I can tell you is that in the past, when I've spoken to officials who are trying to do deals with China. What they've said to me is, look, Laura, this is really hard. This is really difficult. China strikes a hard bargain. But because all these leaders are coming and because so many, as you say, are striking their own deals and blazing their own paths and ways into Beijing, but what they're saying is there's almost a conveyor belt. The Chinese officials have got used to sitting across from their counterparts, whereas before there was kind of a frosty reception stand, you know, making a hard bargain. Now there does seem to be this conveyor belt of deals and the UK is next. So it does seem to smooth a path. Even though each country is different, it does help smooth a path for the.
- [25:19]
Adam Fleming
Uk, just in terms of kind of, well, now, ancient political history. I hadn't quite clocked that. The last British Prime Minister to go to Beijing was eight years ago, and it was Theresa May. And I think maybe the reason I hadn't clocked that was because actually there have been other ministers going. So Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, was there. So it's not like there's been no British presence in Beijing over the last few years. It's actually just not been at Prime Ministerial level.
- [25:44]
Laura Bicker
Yeah, we had a succession of visits from the likes of Rachel Reeves. We've had others kind of make their way here. David Lammy was here, I think, all very low level. They've kept it quite quiet each time they've arrived. You know, it's not been done with huge fanfare. They've not traveled with much press, even access, from my point of view. You know, we've had a couple of quick chats with them, but not much. So it has been kept under the radar. And now this one, I mean, it's much debated in your part of the world here. It's a few paragraphs in the Foreign Ministry statement, but it's still there. And I've spoken to Chinese professors and I think what their view is, yes, Britain is still important to China, because I was asking them, I was like, look, you know, China is so dominant at the moment. You've got a country that produces a third of the world's goods. You've got a country that makes from 60 to 80% of renewable technology, from solar panels, wind turbines to electric vehicles. You've got a country that processes 90% of the world's rare earth minerals, the thing that we need to make smartphones, computers, military weapons. So what on earth can the UK offer Beijing? Well, it seems that here it's banking, it's services and obviously there's a million alumni. This is one thing I didn't know until the last couple of weeks. There are a million Chinese people who've studied in the uk. I've met quite a few of them at Cayley's. When it comes to kind of Scottish events, have to say, Scottish universities do seem to be popular and I've met a few. I went to a brewery the other day. I do not do all my stories involving alcohol or other Scots, but this was a Chinese businessman, he studied in Glasgow. It's quite interesting because he just fell in love with British beer, right. And I mean, he's like, yes, just the beer is so good. I was like, okay. And he started brewing his own beer. He's got a brewery in Glasgow and his bar here. So he's kind of this cross cultural ale and the Chinese love it. They're flocking to his bar. They're sitting there, you know, they're eating their fish and chips and drinking their brown ale. So there are connections that I didn't even know about. But I think when it comes to the kind of cultural connections and the business connections, I expect that to be highlighted over the next few days.
- [28:09]
Adam Fleming
And a reminder, there's only three and a half days of dry January left.
- [28:15]
Laura Bicker
Are you doing dry January?
- [28:16]
Adam Fleming
Yes.
- [28:17]
Joe Pike
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Laura Bicker
Oh, dear.
- [28:19]
Adam Fleming
Anyway, it's been good for my health. Anyway, Laura, going back to the geopolitical picture, and obviously there's then this regular thing of whenever a British political figure goes to China, they say the things about human rights, whether it is the oppression of the Uyghurs or whether it is the suppression of democracy in Hong Kong with activists like Jimmy Lai. I get the impression that the Brits go and read out from a bit of paper, do a bit of mild finger wagging and then the Chinese just go next.
- [28:50]
Laura Bicker
I think your impression is about right. I mean, obviously there's more to it than that and it allows the British delegation to go. We brought this up, but I think, you know, Mark Carney said this during his 40 minute open press conference in the park outside. I mean, with barely a quote on the other day, he's like, look, when it comes to human rights, we're not going to be quiet, but we're just not going to grab the megaphone right now. I think the problem for Britain is because of Hong Kong, it has more to bring up. And because obviously we've seen the protests in Hong Kong, we've seen this slow eradication of what people there are alleging that perhaps more and more of their rights are being eroded in Hong Kong. And we're seeing what many are accusing China of doing, of overtaking Hong Kong rather than have this dual system that was promised. And I think that gives Britain perhaps a louder voice when it comes to human rights. And I think when it comes to the others we've seen come through, human rights is still part of the conversation. But Mark Carney put it one way. He said, look, now is not the time to grab the megaphone. Yes, we're going to bring it up, but at the, at an appropriate time. I think what we'll see from the UK is a bit of, look, we have brought it up. Yes, we have read the Chinese. But honestly, when it comes to these constant allegations, it irks the Chinese. Officials will not be pleased by it. But in many ways, they'll just, just brush it away, brush it aside. Because as I mentioned, this is a very, very confident Beijing right now. This is a China that within the last year has fought a trade war with its fellow superpower, the United States, that it's used its status as the factory of the world as leverage against Donald Trump. And here, President Xi will believe that he's shown America just how strong China can be. So this is a China that feels dominant, that feels confident. So when power, any nation, brings up human rights, I think at this stage, China will feel confident enough to brush off and know that it won't interfere with the trade negotiations that are ongoing.
- [31:07]
Adam Fleming
And in terms of the political situation in China that Keir Starmer is arriving into, there's a few things going on, one of which I've noticed is this, loads of, loads of senior military figures being, well, some might say fired. Other people might use the word purged. What's going on there?
- [31:22]
Laura Bicker
Well, Adam, they don't come back. So it's very, very rare for anyone who disappears to reappear. So the senior ranks of the People's Liberation army are currently in tatters. So at the weekend, what we saw was China's top general, Zhang Youxi, and another military officer has been so called purged. And it came from a number of press releases from the Defense Ministry where they were accused not just of corruption. And that's the usual we hear with, certainly with much of President Xi's corruption drive, we usually hear that they've maybe committed some bribery, maybe committed alleged offenses of various types of corruption. This one it appears that they have seriously undermined, as it said in one of the editorials, seriously undermined the chairman of the military commission, which is President Xi now, many people, many analysts are viewing this as President Xi getting ready of any potential rival, although there are various allegations banning around about what this top general may have done. But, Adam, I think the thing you've got to understand, if you're coming new to this, this has been an ongoing purge since President Xi took power in 2012. He has gone through rank and file, all of lower officials, local government, higher government. And then come about 2023, he started targeting the military. And now we see some of his top generals, some of the very few that have even combat experience, disappearing and being accused of corruption. And I think it's really generating headlines amongst China watchers, if nobody else wondering what on earth is going on at the upper echelons of the People's Liberation Army.
- [33:12]
Adam Fleming
And in terms of when somebody does get purged, to use that word, do they. Do they get sent to prison? Do they get to sort of retire and just never be seen again? Or is it sort of more sinister than that? Or do we just not know?
- [33:28]
Laura Bicker
So I would love a back briefing. I would love Chinese officials to take me aside and say, laura, this is what happens. But of course, welcome to my life here in Beijing. That does not happen here. It's not like any other country. It's not like we have any access. Everything that happens is opaque.
- [33:44]
Joe Pike
What.
- [33:44]
Laura Bicker
What we kind of think happens is that some of them, after a while, they'll be taken somewhere, questioned, and it takes several months before we hear the actual charges, and then we find out that they're being imprisoned for a very long time. So I think that is what we expect this time around. Although with such a senior general, what we are also expecting is his supporters, the people that he's promoted over the years, to also perhaps be purged, also be accused of corruption with within the coming months. So this might not be the end of it.
- [34:18]
Adam Fleming
Right. And not to turn this into a Chris Mason travelogue podcast, but what sort of things do visiting British journalists have to bear in mind in terms of reporting on the ground there? I'm thinking, like, really basic things, like not having the same access to the Internet that I have here in the studio right now.
- [34:36]
Laura Bicker
Yeah, there. There are a few challenges. So, first of all, we have a thing called vpn. So that means that we can access the Internet outside China because there's a massive firew writer across the country. VPNs are actually illegal in China, but you kind of get away with it with if you're a journalist. But that allows me to access the outside world. But Again, it's, it's hit and miss. I'm talking to you now. So it's working fine, but it can be hit and miss. There are various restrictions on us. Yes, we carry press cards, but there is not an understanding of a free press here. So anywhere I go, for instance, when I'm traveling, I usually get a lot of questions from the police. Police. If I'm doing something controversial, whether it's rare earths or whether we're in the edge of Sichuan, on the edge of Tibet, you expect to be followed, you expect to be taken to security office and you expect to be fully questioned for a number of hours before hopefully be set free. These are the kind of restrictions. So it goes from a simple, Let me see your press card. What are you doing here? Please don't film here. Don't film us. You also get accused of taking illegal interviews sometimes. And so it goes from that level all the way up to, you know, three hours in a police office trying to negotiate your way out. So I think, I think Chris will be fine. He's traveling with the Prime Minister. I hope he enjoys this beautiful country as much as it can. See, I think the other thing, as I didn't mention it does look like now that Europe's, much of Europe has it, but it does look like there are certainly ready to announce and I can't say it with 100% certainty, but I think I'm 90% sure that they're going to be visa free entry for British tourists. They've done it for other countries, especially after visiting prime ministers. They did it for Canada the other week. So we are kind of hoping and looking to see what that's, if that's going to happen. I have to say, just to look at the upsides, China is a stunning country, absolutely beautiful country with amazing people who are so welcoming. So although I have that experience, experience as a journalist, as a tourist, it's one of the most wonderful places to travel. So don't be put off by what I'm telling you.
- [36:54]
Adam Fleming
And also just so much to discover because the average British person, including me, knows so little about it.
- [37:00]
Laura Bicker
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things we've been having these discussions ahead of Sir Keira Starmer's visit and I think many people who've, you know, phoned me up and just gone, look, here's the thing. Can you just, I just don't know much about China. Can you help me out? I was like, yeah, sure. So I think there is a big disconnect and Sometimes these people to people exchanges, even at a small level, even as a terrorist, can really make a difference to help you understand the country. And a country you know is different from its leaders, as we all know.
- [37:30]
Adam Fleming
And, Laura, finally, big news for Scottish broadcasters. Carol Kirkwood is leaving breakfast.
- [37:37]
Laura Bicker
Look, that is one of the most shocking things I have read on my email for a while, when I switched on my phone, I was. No, no. Oh, Carol, oh, my goodness. Well, you. I have to say, she is a national institution and I hope she's going to enjoy a long lie somewhere. But, oh, Carol, we will miss you.
- [37:59]
Adam Fleming
Also, just imagine doing the weather for China. It's a big country with a lot of weather. We should have her work her out if she was moving to Chinese television.
- [38:07]
Laura Bicker
But she's not doing that. You're up in Inner Mongolia and it's like, yes, it's minus 30 and then you've got to go all the way down to Yunnan and Sichuan. Right down by the Myanmar border. Yeah. Yes, it's plus 30.
- [38:19]
Adam Fleming
I mean, yeah, for the first two years of working, sort of adjacent to Carol, she thought it was called Alan. I mean, an easy mistake to make.
- [38:30]
Laura Bicker
Fair play, fair play.
- [38:32]
Adam Fleming
So we wish Karen Kirkwood all the best in her future plans. Laura, thank you very much.
- [38:38]
Laura Bicker
She does well, all right, my love, speak to you soon.
- [38:42]
Adam Fleming
Right, and now I'm calling time. Time at the Rat and Parrot. Even though you probably forgot quite a few minutes ago that we were pretending to be in a pub today. But it was fun while it lasted. And that is all for this episode of Newscast. There will be another one along very soon. Bye bye.
- [38:56]
Laura Bicker
Cheers.
- [38:57]
Joe Pike
Newscast.
- [38:58]
Laura Bicker
Newscast from the BBC. From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-3301-239480. Be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.
- [39:45]
Promotional Voice
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- [40:04]
Joe Pike
Evil spirit insane from a world without life.
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Laura Bicker
Chris.
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Promotional Voice
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