C (2:07)

From the BBC Fat boy sliver me.

D (2:09)

In the classroom doing our violin lessons.

C (2:11)

I was the tattletale in the classroom.

A (2:13)

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody.

D (2:16)

Then Daddy has to sometimes do strong language. Next time in Moscow I feel Delulu.

C (2:21)

With no Salulu Take me Down to Downing Street.

D (2:23)

Let's go have a tour.

C (2:25)

Blimey. Hello, it's Laura on a train.

A (2:28)

It's Paddy in the newscast hq.

D (2:30)

And Joe pike, also in hq.

C (2:32)

When shall we three meet again? Almost immediately because news doesn't stop. I can't remember the next line, but be it thunder something or something. And I was Scottish. Paddy's amazing quote, if anyone knows. So I won't even try.

A (2:49)

So Laura, why don't. In case we miss you because you're in the guard's van or maybe the dining car.

C (2:54)

Yes.

A (2:54)

Can you just.

C (2:55)

I'm in a vestibule next to a loo.

A (2:57)

Give us, give us the LK take and then I'll read the statement.

C (3:02)

Okay, so look, this is a huge deal. It's always a big deal when prime ministers lose chiefs of staff and that does happen from time to time because things go wrong and they can be a pretty convenient lightning rod, but it's incredibly significant. Point one, this is a high profile casualty of the mess over Peter Mandelson's job. Point two, Keir Starmer, strange though it sounds, is not a very political Prime Minister. And much of his political thinking has very much been shaped, some people would say delegated to Morgan McSweeney. And in fact, one source in government said, look, if Morgan's gone, then the Prime Minister might be gone not long after because essentially he's been such a driving force in Keir Starmer's politics. So it's hugely significant that he is without him. Point three, this came as a shock to many people in the Cabinet, not just Pat McFadden, who on the TV this morning didn't know it was going to happen, which we discussed earlier. But I'm told that other ministers did not know that this was going to happen. And as we are recording at about 4:30, we don't yet know who the next chief of staff is going to be. And some sources I've been in touch with in the last couple of hours are kind of saying, oh my God, have we actually worked out what's next here? Or is this a decision that Keir Starmer made sort of either overnight or in the middle of the morning or Morgan McSweeney changed his mind, but there isn't actually a succession plan. So there is shock and there is anxiety in some circles. But point four, for some people in the Labour Party, some people in the plp, and also just some people who are in and around the party and backers of Labour in general, this is a relief because for a long time, Morgan McSweeney has had a target on his back, not just because of the mess over Peter Mandelson, but also as the architect of Keir Starmer's time in government. As his most senior political brain, he, of course, has been responsible for some of the thinking over some of the many mistakes that they have made, those political mishaps, whether that's the winter fuel allowance decision that they had to backtrack from, that, the bungled welfare reforms. You know, the list goes on. But the last point I'll make, just in case I, you know, go into a tunnel, is that this leaves the heart of government without somebody in there who definitively knows how to win political campaigns. And for Keir Starmer, who doesn't, I think even his greatest loyal fans would say that is not something that he has in his fingertips, it's something that Morgan McSweeney has, even though plainly, plainly, plainly, he struggled to turn that political nose into the ability to run an effective government. It leaves a hole in the centre of Downing street as we speak right now. By the end of the night, that might be completely different. Someone else might have walked into the office and the Labour Party goes, wow, what an amazing new appointment it is. But as we speak right now, there is a big hole in the middle of Downing street and the pop. The parliamentary Labour Party and Starmer's critics have got a big scalp by the Chief of staff having to go. But there's nothing inevitable about this actually making life easier for Keir Starmer. And it might ease the pressure for a short time, but in the medium to long term, this might turn out to make no difference at all. Which, of course, when we talked earlier, is what Pat McFadney said himself.

A (6:27)

Let's go through the statement, Joe, you. You will probably want to react to this when asked, says Morgan McSweeney, I advised the Prime Minister to make that appointment and I take full responsibility for that advice.

D (6:41)

Are they here trying to say that because Morgan McSweeney was one of those advising that this draws a line under everything, certainly allies of McSweeney that I've been speaking to today, who, some of whom are certainly very angry at what has happened in the last few hours, point out or claim that there were other advisers in and around number 10 and other parts of government who are also advising this. And of course, there is the sort of logical argument, dare I say it, that if the person who advised it has to go, what about the person who actually made the decision? It doesn't necessarily follow through that Keir Starmer should remain in his job, if this is what the logic is to this particular argument. The second thing I think is worth saying, know what your thoughts are on this, Laura. Is it why. Why has he resigned? Is it to take the pressure off or is it possibly, and I realise this is speculation related to the documents that could be published in a few days or a few weeks or a few months time, those documents that Parliament have asked the government to publish related to Lord Mandelson. Because if there's anybody who is likely to have been in touch with Lord Mandelson almost constantly, it's the number 10 chief of staff. Now, there might not be anything bad there, but there could be stuff that. It's embarrassing.

C (7:57)

Yeah, I think it's likely there would be things that would be embarrassing. I think also it might be that the frequency of the contacts might be proved to be embarrassing or it might paint a picture of how central Madison was to the operation. But as you say, Joe, we just don't know the answer to that at this stage. You know, I've been trying to find out in the last couple of hours from Coach C. Oh, go on.

A (8:23)

Surely.

C (8:24)

It'S a. I've been trying to. I've been trying to find out, you know, what happened between 9 o' clock this morning or 8:57 this morning when I had my last check with someone in Downing street about whether or not this was going to happen, what happened between 8:57 and then 911 or whenever it was when Pat McFadden said that Morgan Sweeney wasn't going anywhere and 2:00pm and look, I think the likelihood is so often what happens in politics is it's a combination, it's rarely just one thing on its own. So, yes, this is long term political pressure on Keir Starmer and Morgan McSweeney. This swirl in the last few days is not the first time that people have called on him to go. It's not the first time that there's been a target on his back. Also, it is maybe designed to be an immediate release of some of the pressure and some of the embarrassment and anger over the Mandelson allegations. Remember this morning, Patty, you had David Blunkett saying that Morgan McSweeney should go, who's not exactly, you know, a political hothead, not somebody who says things lightly. But I suspect that it will be a, a, a combination of things. But it's essentially, you know, politics that both the inverse of the, of, you know, things are often contradictory and both true. It is both true that Keir Starmer has lost somebody who is absolutely vital to his operation. It is also true that he has lost somebody who was one of the causes of problems and anger. And it might be that those things to do two things contradict themselves. But actually, you know, politics is topsy turvy and two things that sound different can often both be true at the same time.

A (10:00)

So we're going to move on and discuss who he is using some of his statements. Much has been written and said about me over the years, but my votivation, my motivations have always been simple. I've worked every day to elect and support a government that puts the lives of ordinary people first and leads us to a better future for our great country. So who is Morgan McSweeney?

D (10:21)

He is from West Cork, he's short, ginger haired and what's so interesting about the fact we've got his words here is that we have never heard him speak on camera or on the radio. Newscasters will not know what his accent sounds like because he has kept a pretty low profile. He was born to pretty political parents. He moved to the UK after leaving school and worked on building sites and then briefly went to University. And in 2001, he was part of Labour HQ in that Labour general election campaign, which Tony Blair of course won. He has been a sort of grassroots campaigner for many years, including in local government. And what is fascinating about what happens next is a sort of Laura has nodded to, in terms of McSweeney being the political brain of Starmer. There are some who argue that it wasn't starmer who recruited McSweeney, but actually it happened the other way around and that in the Corbyn years, in the latter Corbyn years, McSweeney was spending a lot of time and money with, with opinion polls, looking to who would be the most likely victor in the next Labour leadership election after what was the 2019 election, and that he decided that Keir Starmer was the best candidate. And of course, what happened next was, as some would argue, a bit of a deception in that Keir Starmer managed to persuade a lot on the left of the Labour Party Corbyn supporters that he was their man. And then he has, since winning the control of the Labour leadership, moved more to the centre. But as Laura I think has nodded to, yes, he was a mastermind in that period and a Mastermind behind the 2024 Labour landslide. But only three months into government, he took over and he's arguably not really been much of A governmental mastermind and hasn't had that government experience or civil service experience, which Keir Starmer may now be looking for in who's next in that top role.

C (12:26)

So there's an announcement you might hear in the background of the train. So if you can. And yes, I am genuinely on a train and you can hear the genuine sound effects, because I'm genuinely on a train. But, yeah, so he went after people who might have been tempted by Boris Johnson, even though traditionally they'd be sort of, you know, socially conservative, but economically on the left. And the same kind of voters, actually, that Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson tried to go after in the 2019 election. Morgan tried to get them back across the Labour Party with enormous success, and sort of maxed out the possible number of seats. So instead of strategically going after a kind of narrower labor coalition, which might not have had a very, very big majority, he went for kind of maximum majority, go after the kind of people who might have voted, flirted with the Tories, who might have voted Brexit, who might now be interested in reform and try to get them over onto the red side. Now, of course, in 2024, that was an absolutely phenomenal success, an enormous majority. And at that point, people sort of looked to McSweeney, who worked very closely then with Pat McFadden. They looked to him as a kind of genius, as Joe says. Of course, as soon as they walk into government, there's then a very uncomfortable period when he and Sue Gray, remember her, tried to work alongside each other in Downing Street. That did not end well because we ended up the top dog after that period of time. But since then, plainly, the way that he was running a team, his experience, the way they were running things in Downing street, plainly they struggled to get to grips with the business of governing successfully. You know, we've seen this before. I mean, arguably this is exactly what happened in 2019. You know, Boris Johnson and his team with Dominic Cummings and Lee Kane and all those people, they ran an incredibly successful general election campaign. But when it came to the governing, it's like they've been so busy having punch ups with people over Brexit, when it was actually time to work out how to get departments to work with each other and how to get things done in government, they kind of came unstuck. So, you know, there's a. What I was going to say is there's an irony. It's not an irony, but there's an echo of someone who was sort of credited in a great strategic political brain when it came to running government, they fell short and they end up not that far after having to fall on their sword. Just another echo. You know, one of part of Morgan MC statement is he's complained about the official betting process and perhaps inevitably on X Dominic Cummings is weighed into that, essentially sort of backing him up and saying, yes, the vetting process is really terrible. And this, that and the other. We've all discussed whether vesting was really the problem with the Peter Mandelson appointment or actually they should have identified the problems from space. But there is a sort of intriguing echo there, if you're, I suppose, as obsessed with all this stuff as I am.

A (15:26)

Yeah, no, I was going to make a link in the Journalese that I like speaking between party gay Fluent. Well, I'm fluent in general.

C (15:34)

Oh, sorry that I really am on actually. And hear that door. Awesome.

A (15:39)

I was going to make the link between Partygate and Mandygate and between Dominic Cummings and Morgan McSweeney because when I spoke to Lord Blunkett this morning, a reminder that he did call at 10 past 9 for Morgan McSweeney to go. He was one of the most senior figures so to do. And he did that live on Radio 4. But he said it like this. When I was in government, I looked at the advice people gave me and I rated their advice by what then happened. So what does a Chief of Staff do? And in seeking a replacement for this man, do they go for Mr. Or Mrs. Cellophane Joe or do they need to go, as a newscaster has suggested, for someone really in primary colors? It's a fascinating idea. It's Kieran. Why not appoint Harriet Harman as a new Chief of Staff? What kind of person. And Kieran says that's because she was so critical of the process. What kind of person is a Chief of Staff?

D (16:36)

Well, often. Well, I mean the role is. Is the. The top political staff member, so working alongside the Cabinet Secretary, the top. Top civil servant and being, I suppose, the strategic manager for the Prime Minister, working out what the PM wants to do and trying to pull every possible lever, but unlike civil servants, also be able to move around ministers and. And talk to ministers too. So I mean, different Chief of staff act in different ways, but I suppose looking. I suppose if you're looking at McSweeney, you may make the decision about who comes next based on what he lacked. That's often, rightly or wrongly, how PMs have acted in the past. With somebody who has so little government experience. Do you have somebody who is steeped in government, maybe. Who, who has been a. A civil servant. Harriet Harmon's an interesting idea. I suppose the initial reaction would be, would she want it? I don't know what you think, Laura. Are there obvious names that jump out to you? Who, who?

C (17:41)

I mean, there are names floating around. I mean, somebody you know and there's names floating around and there are also problems being pointed out with various names. So, you know, it's been suggested, ah, Jonathan Powell. He's currently the foreign policy Chief advisor and he's someone who's very wily, he's someone who's very political, but also has extensive government experience, having worked for Tony Blair. But of course he was also involved in the Peter Madison appointment. So, yeah, you can imagine how that might go. Another name mentioned was Louise Casey, who's often seen as a kind of Whitehall troubleshooter. I'm told that that is not going to happen. She is a non executive Director actually in Whitehall and I'm told that the Chief of Staff job is not something that she would be interested in. I'm told Morgan McSweeney's deputy, Vidya Alexin, is a woman who some people suggest might be an option. Some politicos inside the Labour Party have suggested that while well liked and respected, she's not necessarily somebody with the experience and authority to do it. Another name that's been suggested to me is Ben Nunn, who was for a long time the press secretary and advisor to Keir Starmer, but is currently the Chief of Staff to Rachel Reeves, another person who's, you know, well liked and, and well respected inside labor circles, but is not necessarily seen as a kind of heavyweight because he's someone in the, you know, the sort of first half of his career rather than the second, if you see what I mean. And the truth is, I think it's really, really difficult, partly because it's a really difficult job, but also because Keir Sama doesn't have a tribe, he doesn't have a big tribe of people and that has always been one of his problems. And if you think about the recruitment of Chief of staff, what should a Chief of Staff be able to do? Fill in the gaps, do the things that the boss can't do. What's the thing that Keir Starmer finds really difficult? It's not commitment, it's not focus, it's not understanding reading briefing papers, it's not like understanding policy. It's actually looking round the corner politically for bombs that haven't gone off yet, for things that might go wrong or Looking for political opportunity where we might be able to find success. And I think there'll be people in the Labour Party, if they go for a sort of Whitehall, civil servants type of chief of staff, might think, you know what, that is just the wrong call. You need someone who can give him that political insight, that kind of quicksilver, which is the thing that, as I say, you know, even his supporters would say that he lacked another name. That's been suggested to me is maybe Darren Jones, of course, is a government minister, but does that sort of role in Downing street at the moment? That's what Boris Johnson did when everything blew up. Steve Barclay, who had been a government minister, he ended up being his chief of staff. But, you know, who knows, by the end of tonight we might know and it might be a big name that might surprise us, but it's. It's a really crucial, crucial appointment. You've got to wonder, also, given how precarious things are for the government, who would want to give up a big job somewhere else to take a risk on joining an operation that might not be that long for this world?

D (20:48)

An external candidate sounds pretty difficult for that exact reason. And also, in terms of the choreography of this, sometimes when somebody goes, there is an announcement, five minutes later, this person is taking over. We thank Morgan for his service, which we had something a bit like that from. Yeah, from Keir Starmer, but we didn't have an announcement. It doesn't sound like this was all planned. A couple of other things in terms of looking ahead, that have come from conversations with a couple of MPs. One, I was asking what they thought about all of this and their. Their view was that very few people in the real world will notice. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. But they were saying maybe out of hope rather than anything else, they didn't think there would be a huge sort of change of opinion. And this person who has been door knocking, campaigning in Gorton, Denton, in Greater Manchester around that upcoming by election, had said that talk of Manchester very rarely came up on the doors, and another MP saying that in the next week, both the PM and the Chancellor are going to be talking to them. This is a Scottish MP who says that they are due in number 11 tomorrow for a sort of reception, presumably with Rachel Reeves, and they're talking strategy in number 10 on Tuesday. Now, I don't know if that's necessarily with the Prime Minister, so. But you'd think he might pop in yet. Who is the key strategist in number 10? Now, with Morgan McSweeney gone, the Scottish Labour MPs, of course, probably being brought in one to keep them on side because some of them privately think Starmer should go to make May's elections better, but also because those elections are a key moment and maybe there is some guidance or strategy from number 10 that might be useful.

A (22:32)

So I think we shouldn't overlook the elephant in the room, which is something has happened today which has taken the insiders by surprise. Laura has reminded us that Pat McFadden, the insider's insider, came onto BBC1 saying that Morgan MacSweeney shouldn't go. So Morgan MacSweeney did not tell Pat McFadden that he was going at 9 o'. Clock. We can do that without being Miss Marple. At the same time as it's come out now that he is going, there is no replacement for one of the key jobs at the centre of this project, this labor government that you've just told us that there isn't. Normally you would say Morgan McSween is going, Joe pike is the new Chief of Staff, but we've got a va. We've got a vacancy. So, I mean, this tells me, on.

D (23:17)

That salary, Paddy, Geez, I tell you, I would. 155 or something he was on. It's not a badly paid job, although I suppose the hours are long.

A (23:25)

Well, yes, and look at, look at the flack. But Laura, this tells me the sequencing suggests to me there's been a chaotic moment sometime in the morning, mid sort of 10, 11, 12, something, something on that the Prime Minister and the Chief of staff and Pat McFadden did not all agree on. At nine in the morning. Happened by. By two o'. Clock.

C (23:47)

Yes. And as I understand it, I mean, I've been told by a few different sources that the Cabinet did not know that this was coming. There are Cabinet ministers who are surprised by this. It was not what people expected early in the morning when it came, there were ministers that were shocked by the decision. And as you say, there is now a hole which may be filled by the time this actually makes it airways. But at the moment there is a vacuum in Downing street and at the very least, sending out a senior minister to say something on the telly that a couple of hours later proves to be wrong. And also he was so sure that it wasn't going to happen, he said there's not even any point doing it. It wouldn't make any difference. That is not an elegant way to do these things. So we don't know exactly what happened, I think it would be, you can imagine what might have happened, is that Keir Sama thought about this overnight and at some point in the middle of morning, he then told a tiny, maybe just one or two people in number 10 that this is what he was going to do. And he then phoned Morgan and then said, I think, actually, I'm sorry, time's up. And then the announcement comes out a couple of hours later. That may be how this came to pass. But even that sequencing, that is less than elegant. And it is not a sign of a political operation that is functioning in the way a citizen might hope it does.

A (25:16)

So this is at 5 o'. Clock. So we've spent three hours without a chief of staff and we. When you listen to this, in the future, you may have one, but as we speak to you, we don't. We came back in here. Laura's on a train in the dining car with the rattling first class silver and the starch tablecloths.

C (25:32)

Oh, yeah, Martinez already.

A (25:33)

She claims to be standing outside the loo in the vestibule.

D (25:38)

It's a Pullman carriage.

A (25:40)

It's a Pullman carriage.

D (25:41)

I can tell by that rattle.

A (25:42)

Hercule Poirot, even now, is coming to. Is coming to you.

C (25:45)

It's not the Orient Express, for goodness sake. Am I gonna get bumped off?

A (25:48)

So we do say we're probably like Morgan McSweeney. We've got to bring it to a close because soon we'll be saying, we don't know anymore.

B (25:56)

Right.

A (25:57)

Bye, Laura. Don't forget, don't leave any. If you see any, see it, say it. Sorted, Laura. Bye Bye. Joe pike, anything else to say before we lose you?

D (26:05)

No. Apart from one thing, which is, and without wanting to sound self indulgent, today, I'm sure, would have been one of the days where almost everybody in government and in opposition parties is at nine, turning on BBC1, turning on Radio 4. I think it's one of those days where the mood of Pat McFadden and the tone of what he was saying, but also that very clear message from David Blunkett will have fed into what a lot of people in government would have.

B (26:33)

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D (28:40)

Been thinking today.

A (28:41)

So there we are, a day when we woke up on Sunday saying one thing, we had to come back in to say another. That was Sunday's second newscast. Thank you very much indeed. James Cook and Alex Forsyth pick up the baton on Monday's newscast, but thank you very much for listening.

C (28:56)

Goodbye.

D (28:57)

Goodbye.

C (28:58)

Newscast Newscast from the BBC.

D (29:00)

Well, thank you for making it to the end of day the another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

C (29:27)

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merryman. And in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.