C (3:15)

newscast from the BBC.

B (3:16)

Fat boy sliver me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

C (3:19)

I was the tattletale in the classroom.

A (3:21)

Can I have an apology, please?

B (3:22)

I trust almost nobody that daddy has to sometimes use strong language.

A (3:26)

Next time in mosque I feel delulu

B (3:29)

with no salulu Take me down to Downing street.

A (3:31)

Let's go have a tour. Blimey. Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio. And for this episode, I'm joined down the line by Dr. Maggie Adairen Pocock, legendary space scientist. Hello, Maggie.

C (3:42)

Hello.

A (3:42)

I should say Dame Maggie. Oh, congratulations on your elevation.

C (3:47)

Oh, thank you. Maggie's good there. Good.

A (3:49)

Good to hear her. And also with us is astronaut Tim Peake. Hi, Tim.

B (3:52)

Hi, Adam.

A (3:54)

Now, you two are the hosts of the BBC series, the podcast, 13 Minutes Presents, Artemis 2. Maggie, just explain the reference there in the title of your podcast.

C (4:03)

Yes. So 13 minutes presents. So the original podcast was talking about the first moon landings. And so that 13 minutes when sort of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were actually sort of landing on the moon. That's what that's covering. But since then, we've gone on to cover many other things. Apollo 13, the space shuttle, and sort of got in the bag. But at the moment, we're doing Artemis 2, and we're doing a daily podcast on that.

A (4:30)

Great. Such a good idea. And, Maggie, we started today's episode of Newscast by listening to the sound from mission control as the rocket went up on Wednesday night. Where were you watching it? What was going through your head as that was happening?

C (4:44)

So I was at home and my daughter was away, but I was speaking to her by WhatsApp, and we were watching the launch together. And the thing is, I tuned in quite early and sort of about three hours in, I was thinking, well, what's the likelihood of it going up? And we got closer and closer to the launch. I thought, you know, this is actually happening. And then there was a pause at 10 minutes. I thought, oh, my goodness, you know, will we. And it did. And it was magical. And it was far more excited than I anticipated being because I'd met all the astronauts on board. And so to see them blast off into space and head towards the moon was just quite breathtaking Although, Tim, there

A (5:19)

were a couple of last minute glitches, weren't there? Glitches that were fixed quite quickly, but nonetheless they were there.

B (5:25)

Yeah, they were, absolutely. They had firstly a bit of a problem with the termination system. This is the system that would be used to actually destroy the rocket in the event that it came off course and caused a danger to the public and they lost communications. So that was a kind of no go. It took them 50 minutes to repair it. Actually. They ended up using some of the old shuttle hardware to repair that. And then they had a problem with the launch abort system. This is the system that carries the crew safely away from the rocket if it has a catastrophic malfunction and one of the batteries had a problem. But there it was really a fantastic team ethic. Some great teamwork going on to fix those problems. And you could just tell by the enthusiasm in mission Control, how they're working through those issues, that they really wanted to go.

A (6:10)

Last night it was so interesting hearing lots of my colleagues who were there on the ground covering the launch, just reacting just to the physicality of what it's like being in the vicinity of a launch. And I suppose you're not even in the near vicinity because you have to be a really long way away. And Rebecca Morell, our science editor, just saying she could almost feel it in her bo. Tim, you know what it's like to actually be on board when, when that massive force is powered up, what does it feel like?

B (6:36)

Do you know, it's interesting. I was more nervous watching that rocket last night than sitting on top of a rocket myself. Especially when. When you've got good friends on there. So when you're inside the rocket, yes, you feel the noise, you feel the vibration, you feel that acceleration, but quite quickly you're going faster than the speed of sound. So a lot of that noise is behind you. And actually, for the people watching the launch, they sometimes have a better. That visceral feeling of your chest. Feeling the vibrations from 22 million horsepower lifting you off the launch pad is quite something. So that would have been spectacular for the people in Florida last night.

A (7:12)

I mean, lots of us have felt like. It's called the G force, isn't it? When you're on a roller coaster? How much more than a roller coaster is it?

B (7:19)

It's quite a bit more, but it's more sustained. That's the point. So on a roller coaster, some of them, you can pull four GS, that's four times your body weight at the moment. We're all here on Earth experiencing one

C (7:31)

G.

B (7:33)

If we have a problem with the rocket, particularly during re entry, we can go up to 9G. So we train in the centrifuge to practice how to withstand this G force, how to do special breathing techniques so that we don't lose consciousness. So there is a real art to kind of tolerance with G and getting used to it.

A (7:50)

Oh, do you want to try and teach me the technique now? Not that I'm planning to experience intense G forces on the way home, but

B (7:56)

so for astronauts, it's a bit different from fighter pilots. Fighter pilots are experiencing G in a different direction. The main problem with a fighter pilot is losing blood from the brain and losing that oxygen from the brain and passing out. For astronauts, we're lying on our back during launch and reentry. So the problem for us is we feel that crushing force on our chest. So imagine four people lie down on the floor and imagine four people, your same body weight sitting on your chest. That's what you're feeling. And if you try and breathe, you think you're gonna take a nice lung full of air, but actually you can't, your chest can't expand and so you end up taking a tiny amount of air in. And it can be really quite disconcerting. Almost a feeling of suffocation. So you have to used to gulping, gulp breathing and practicing that in the centrifuge and not panicking.

A (8:41)

This is like the most intense mindfulness class you can imagine. So now I know you two have just been recording the latest episode of 30 Minutes Presents. So I'm not sure if you're totally across what's happening right this second, but we're recording at about 20 past 3 on Thursday afternoon. Maggie, what sort of stage is the mission at at the moment?

C (8:59)

Yes. So they've been up in Earth orbit for just over 20. Well, actually just under 24 hours now. And the big question, we see the Orion capsule a bit like a brand new camper van. And so this is the first time humans have been on board. So they're testing out all the systems. They had a bit of a glitch with the loo earlier. They are testing sort of the, the heating system. There was a lovely clip we showed where they're actually trying to find their luggage because they got a bit nippy and they couldn't find their jumpers. So they're sort of doing the sort of the housekeeping at the moment, but they're testing the system. And the next sort of exciting stage will be what they call the translunar injection. So they haven't decided if they're actually going to go to the moon yet. They need to make sure that all systems go on board. But if that is the case, then they are orbiting the Earth and what they'll do is they'll do this trans lunar burst which will actually take them and propel them towards the moon.

A (9:50)

Yeah, Tim, I was quite surprised that it wasn't all done in one go, that there is quite a lot of time where they're going to be in Earth orbit before they start the next bit of the journey.

B (9:59)

Yes. And that was all pre planned in order to give the crew and give mission patrol plenty of time to test out the system. So Victor Glover, the pilot, he's already taken manual control of the spacecraft, flown it around one of the upper stages of the rocket actually to practice the maneuvering. They've tested communications, the navigation systems with star trackers, they tested the life support system, they've had a four hour sleep, they've tried eating and drinking and troubleshooting all of these problems. As Maggie says, they're not going to make that translunar injection until they're sure that spacecraft ready to go to the moon because once they fire those engines it's very hard to stop and come back home again. The easier thing is just to carry on to the moon. And that's an eight day journey there and back.

A (10:44)

And also Maggie, I mean it's incredibly accessible all of this to us down here on Earth. You can see them saying night night to mission control as they're getting ready for their four hours of sleep. We've all seen the video on our socials of them throwing their iPhones to each other in zero gravity. It's almost like we are there with them.

C (11:02)

It is. And I think that is the power of technology these days. They took their phones because they're going to take selfies from you up there. And it really brings it home that these are sort of people for humans out there in space. Their environment is very sort of alien, but the things they're doing are sort of quite familiar. And I, I think that sort of a, hopefully that's an inspiration to sort of the next generation. We're looking for the next sort of budding space scientists and astronauts and I hope this will inspire them.

A (11:28)

And Tim, obviously it must bring back memories for you of, of the times you were doing this.

B (11:32)

Absolutely, yeah. I mean I'm hugely envious, as is every astronaut right now, hugely envious of that crew. They're Enjoying the most spectacular views of Earth. They're the furthest away right now than human. Since 1972, they're seeing Earth the size of a basketball held at arm's length. And it will just look absolutely spectacular. For Jeremy Hansen, Canadian, this is his first time in space, so he'll be getting used to weightlessness as well. But it just brings back memories of just how spectacular that view is.

A (12:01)

And Tim, in terms of the kit in the Orion capsule has kind of technology and comfort levels of that sort of stuff. Moved on a lot since you were doing it?

B (12:12)

It. Yes, they have moved on, but, but of course, on the space station, I guess it's like a five star luxury hotel compared to Orion. Yeah, you know, we've got plenty of space. You've got your own bunk with your own sleeping bag in it. You've got a hygiene area, you've got a treadmill, you've got a weight machine, you've got a galley for cooking. They're having to do everything in something the size of a minivan. So they, they won't actually. They folded their, their seats away. The seats for launch and re entry. They folded them away to make some more room in that area that they've installed, the loo, which is in the. To try and give them some privacies. They open a panel and kind of go down into the floor where the loo area is. So yeah, they're kind of converting their camper van to try and make as much space as possible.

A (12:54)

And Maggie, you mentioned that you've both chatted to the four crew members. Tell us a bit more about them.

C (13:00)

Oh, so they're a wonderful bunch. It was lovely to meet them. And so of course there's Reid, who is the commander and he has a sort of a quiet air about him, sort of speaking and listening to interviews as well from the rest of the crew. I think he's a leader that they are very happy to follow. Then there's Victor, the pilot. And as Tim was saying, he's been doing some of the maneuvers and he was really looking forward to that. And he's the first black person to go towards the moon, so that's very exciting. Then there is Jeremy. He's the first non American to go to the moon. I mean, they haven't traveled far, he's Canadian, but it's still the first non American to go to the moon. And then of course there's Christina and I've spoken to her sort of many times and interviewed her many times. The first woman to go into Space. And they had. Tim was talking about the loo there. She's the mission specialist and so she's an engineer by trade. Spent quite a bit of time out in Antarctica and when the loo, they had some difficulties with it and she was the one who went and fixed it. So lovely to have an engineer on board and of course, the first woman to go to the moon as well. So exciting times and lovely crew.

A (14:14)

And Tim, watching the build up up, you could see NASA had wanted to really sort of X factorize this. And so they were playing on a loop this video of the. Of the four crew members kind of stepping forward and straight into the spotlight and striking heroic poses, like. Like the contenders used to do on X Factor or maybe the characters do on Fortnite. How do you, as a professional, juggle the celebrity bit of the job? Because you become a celebrity with the fact that actually you're. You have to be a total nerd as well.

B (14:46)

I know. It is a bit of a juggling act. That crew, though, they understand as soon as you become an astronaut, you're also an ambassador for space. We have to explain what we're doing and why we're doing it, and that's really important. So that connection to the public, getting the message out there is something that the astronauts will appreciate they have to do. But also when the hatch closes, it's just pure focus of, you know, operational focus of thought and clarity and being as professional as possible, so they'll get that balance right.

A (15:16)

Ye. You're thinking about the mission rather than the selfie.

B (15:19)

Absolutely.

A (15:20)

Now, in terms of the mission, Maggie, just give us kind of the elevator pitch for why they're doing this.

C (15:25)

Yes. And so I'm quite excited by this mission because with the Apollo programme, to me, it was a lot about saber rattling. It was about sort of demonstrating sort of prowess. It was quite political. This has the political elements. But now we're going to the moon with purpose. So Artemis is part. Artemis 2 is part of a series of missions. Artemis 1 was testing the SLS, the Space Launch and the Orion capsule, but with no one on board. So it went up into space, it came back down. So now we have sort of the Orion capsule, but with the four crew members on board and they are going out towards the moon and then falling back to Earth, so they don't actually land on the moon. Then we'll have Artemis 3, which will do further tests. But Artemis 4 is the one I'm really excited about because that's when we get boots on the ground. On the moon. Now, before we do that, NASA plans to do that by about 2028, which might be a little optimistic. But before we do that, there's various bits of infrastructure that need to be set. But yes, this is the long term plan. It's quite interesting because people often ask why we're going back to the moon now. And we've had such a hiatus of over 50 years. But in that hiatus, space scientists like me were building sort of satellites and probes, some that went in orbit around the moon, and some robotic missions that landed on the moon's surface. And one of the discoveries is frozen water at the moon's pole, south pole. And so part of this mission and part of what Artemis 2 will be doing is they'll be going to the far side of the moon. That's the side of the moon that never faces towards the Earth. So they'll be seeing part of the moon that has never been seen by human eyes before. But one of the things they're trying to do is, I'd like to say it's like reconnaissance or trying to find a parking space. Where will the best places on the South Pole be to go and have a look? And so they've been trained in geology, they've got telescopes and cameras on board, and they'll be looking at the South Pole region in great detail to work out what might be the possible landing spots in the future.

A (17:17)

And Maggie, you talked about the infrastructure that needs to be put in place. We're going to be sending things up, up that just sort of hang about waiting for a rendezvous in years, years to come, aren't we?

C (17:27)

Yes. And because we've got sort of the lunar gateway, a sort of a space docking system. And that's why Victor was practicing some of the maneuvers earlier, so we can actually dock two items in space and transfer people from a capsule like Orion to the Lunar Lander. And so all this infrastructure needs to be put in place before we get sort of the boots on the ground. But at the same time, there are lots of plans. And, and thing is, I almost shake to say it because they've been planned to make a sort of a moon base. But these plans sort of go back before the moon landings, but it feels tantalizingly close at the moment. And with a moon base, we can utilize that liquid water, get oxygen and hydrogen, which is effectively rocket fuel, and then actually start the sort of the journey to beyond our bit of space and go out towards the solar system. So it's. And there are grand plans ahead but it all starts with this, this.

A (18:20)

And we will talk about Mars in a second. But, Tim, this idea of a permanent moon base, just try and sort of paint a picture of what that facility would. Would be.

B (18:29)

Well, as Maggie pointed out, one of the good things about the south pole of the Moon is water ice. So you've got resources there that we can use. We need to protect ourselves from radiation. There are a number of ways you can do that. You can also think about using the regolith there, the lunar soil, and perhaps using 3D printing techniques to actually print out building blocks that could help to make a structure. Anything that can use on the moon that saves you having to carry it there in a rocket, in a spacecraft is going to be cheaper, simpler, and easier to do. So we're investigating how we can perhaps use these different techniques to provide some sort of structure, some sort of shelter there that will enable our scientists to live and work for months, maybe years, even at a time at that research facility. But the Moon was once part of Earth. So it's fascinating to be able to tell us more about our own planet and also to see what resources might be on the Moon that can help us.

A (19:24)

Yeah. So, Tim, that. That thing about the Moon being part of Earth, that. That's the idea that an asteroid hit the Earth, a bit of the planet was ejected, and then went into orbit and became the Moon. That's to. That's totally rock solid, if you pardon the pun. That. That theory now.

B (19:40)

Yeah, well, I think it's scientifically recognized. I'm going to hand over to Maggie. She's the expert. To my knowledge, it's. It's recognized by the scientific community now as the most plausible explanation as to how we have. How we have a need.

C (19:54)

Yeah, well, yeah, I think saying unequivocally is always hard for a scientist, but this is the best theory we have at the moment. And it was more sort of a planet the size of Mars that collided with the early Earth. It ejected material. And so this planet, we call it fear. And this ejection from the Earth sort of merged together to form sort of this new body. And that the Moon used to be a lot closer to us. And this moon is slowly spiraling away from us about the same rate. Our fingernails grow so very slowly. But yes, it is our companion in space. And so having a moon base there makes sense. Cause it's in close proximity. But then, of course, then we're looking at beyond.

A (20:35)

I mean, what happened to that planet that crashed into us? Where did it go?

C (20:38)

So it coalesced with the Earth. Oh, I see.

A (20:40)

Oh, yes, sorry, that's what you were saying. Yeah.

C (20:42)

Yes, yes.

A (20:43)

I thought you were talking about the fact that the stuff that was ejected coalesced to become the moon.

B (20:47)

Yeah.

C (20:48)

So we think this sort of planet Thea and the matter sort of coalesce to form the Earth and. But it looks quite similar because if you look at the materials that the moon is made of, they have great similarities to the sort of thing we find here on Earth. That's one of the pieces of evidence to support the theory.

A (21:06)

And here's a bit of a philosophical question about the moon, Maggie. Does the moon and studying it tell us more about space and other planets, or does it actually tell us more about our own planet? Because it's a sort of like small mirror of ourselves, isn't it?

C (21:20)

It is, but also I see it as a time capsule. So the solar system formed about four and a half billion years ago, and then we had sort of a massive movement of planets. It was a period called the Late Heavy Bombardment, where we had sort of planets moving around through the solar system. We have the formation of the moon, but the Moon has virtually no atmosphere. And so it's like a time capsule because anything that has landed on this moon's surface, it hasn't been weathered or eroded or sort of hit with rain or the things that happen to anything that's landed on Earth. And so when we go to the Moon, we can actually look at those, at that sort of those things that have landed on the surface and get an understanding of our early solar system and sort of beyond. So it's quite interesting in that respect. But then, yes, it is also our companion and governs quite a bit of what's going on, the dynamics of our Earth system and more than the tides. So, yes, I think it's doing both. Also. It takes some of the hits that we would otherwise hit Earth. So some of the asteroids that might come and hit Earth, because the moon is relatively large compared to the size of our planet, it takes some of those hits. So I do see it as our companion in space, and it's taking some of the hits for us.

A (22:34)

And, Tim, in terms of the Moon being a stepping stone to the planet Mars, how much is that actually the plan? How much is that? Is that is just a sort of aspiration and a potential thing a long way down the line.

B (22:48)

It's very much the plan. Artemis is going to be able to teach us a lot about how we can do the Mars mission more safely, more Effectively more efficiently in terms of living on another celestial body. Effect effectively, but also the technology that we need to get there and back and Mars is achievable. It's just a long mission. Put it into context. The space station's up at 400km now, that's not that far. You could drive there in a few hours. The moon is out at 400,000 kilometers. That's a four day journey. Mars is up to 400 million kilometers away. It's a long, long way away. And we think the first mission's likely to be a three year mission. So in order to embark on that kind of mission, you need to know a lot about the habitation modules, the food that you're going to eat, the you take there, the radiation shielding to protect your body as you travel outside of Earth's magnetosphere. So going to the moon, which is relatively safe in terms of proximity to Earth, you can have emergency return of that crew in just a few days. That's a great place to go and learn the lessons that we need to be able to more safely explore the solar system. But we're not that far away. I reckon by the late 2000s, early 2000s, we'll be seeing those first human missions to Mars. And that will be built on the lessons that we learned from the Artemis Program program.

A (24:05)

This feels like a bit of a grim question to ask, but the level of risk for a Mars mission, how, how low would it have to go for it to be ethical for us as a species to do it? Tim?

B (24:18)

Well, we're not looking at one way trips to Mars. Absolutely not. We're far better than that. We're cleverer than that. We're smarter. We can get crews there and back. In terms of risk, it's an interesting one. You have to accept some degree of risk. And certainly we were all talking last night before the mission that quite a large amount of risk associated with this launch. The crews themselves, they understand that, they were talking quite candidly about that, how they'd addressed it with their families, for example. So yes, there will be risk involved in the Mars mission, but everybody would have worked really hard to mitigate that risk down to an acceptable level to get the job done.

A (24:57)

Maggie at the start of the conversation you hearken back to the Apollo missions of the 60s and 70s and you talked about the, the political climate then. And of course the political climate. There was the Cold War and the so called space race between the US representing capitalism and the Soviet Union representing communism. What's the kind of the geopolitics of the space race of 2026.

C (25:20)

And so I think the saber rattling does continue and. But I think there's a sort of a new superpower. So the USSR as it was, and now Russia is a sort of, I'd say a third, a third level player. So it's mainly between China and America now, but it's quite interesting. So talking about going to Mars and sort of there's the scientific and engineering challenges of it, but also there's the cost. And so. And so I think we need the impetus to get sort of people signed up to actually spending the money to get us to Mars. So I think the technology is available today, but I think it is the sort of the political clout and also the. And to a certain extent I think there is a desire to be the first to get back to the moon and the first to get to Mars and I think that might be the impetus we need to spend the cash to actually get us there. So it is a different climate to the. One of the Cold War, but I think we are still trying to show superiority and I think that's what NASA is about, trying to get sort of boots on the moon and then boots to Mars. But. But it's. There's other players in the field, but they're a sort of. They haven't got the money to spend in the way America and China. China does.

A (26:32)

And Tim, finally, just to you, in just over a week's time, all going well, these four pioneers will splash down in the Pacific Ocean. What's it like when you come home? I mean, you know what it's like when you've done a hard day at work and you get home and it's a bit like. Or you've had an amazing night out and you get home and you're a bit like, oh, I mean, this must be. That times about a billion to the power of 10.

B (26:53)

Yeah. There's definitely going to be a period of readjustment for the crew when they get back. It's going to be quite remarkable. They'll be utterly exhausted, but they'll be expecting that. Know we send astronauts to space to work hard. The journey back home is going to be quite brutal. They're coming back into Earth's atmosphere at 25,000 miles per hour. That's not going to be a soft ride. So it'd be fascinating though to hear from the crew firsthand how the mission went, what was the launch like, what went well, what could have been done better. So everybody will want a piece of them, the scientific community will for debriefings. There'll be press activity going on. They'll want some time with their families as well, but they won't get that for the first few weeks. It's going to be incredibly busy for them.

A (27:36)

And last question to you, Maggie. Is there going to be a piece of data or something that is gathered from this mission that you can't wait to get your hands on that's just never been seen before, or is it actually just more proof of things we sort of know?

C (27:50)

I think the fact that they're going to be going to the far side of the moon and we're going to get human eyes on this for the first time. Time. And so we have in the past sent probes to see the far side of the moon. We've got images of that, but the combination. That's what I build satellites that do that. But the combination of sort of the tech technology, so, like the cameras and the telescopes and things like that with the human brain. My example is Earthrise, the picture taken by Apollo 8. It wasn't programmed. No one expected them to do it, but they saw it and they thought, everybody on Earth needs to see this. And so they took the image and it was epic. But having sort of the human eyes on the moon, especially the South Pole of the moon, I think is going to be, in a similar way, epic. And we're going to see things that we've just never appreciated before because the human processor will be behind them.

A (28:38)

Oh, yeah. I'm dying to know what the sort of the meme of this mission is going to be, that they'll then just become imprinted on every eyeball on Earth for the next hundred years. So let's see. Maggie, thank you so much.

C (28:52)

Lovely to speak to you.

A (28:53)

And Tim, great to speak to you too.

B (28:55)

Thank you very much.

C (29:05)

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to

A (29:14)

put my balls on the dash board

C (29:15)

as he starts the engine.

A (29:17)

In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.

C (29:23)

This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive To Survive. This week on Good Bad Billionaire, how

B (29:31)

Toto Wolff made his billions.

C (29:32)

Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

A (29:38)

And that's all for this episode of Newscast, apart from to say I've already recorded the inaugural episode of election cast 2026 where we are looking at the elections in some areas of England, but also in Scotland and Wales. And that will be landing in your newscast feeds on Friday, as it will do every Friday throughout the election campaign before it ends on the 7th of May. And then there'll be loads and loads and loads of episodes about the results and the consequences that flow from them. I hope you enjoyed tuning in to the Artemis 2 mission over the Easter weekend. And also you'll be able to tune into mine and Chris's new newscast miniseries series, which is about the Home Office, the history and some of the challenges in that government department right now. So plenty for you to listen to over the Easter weekend from newscast. Have a good one. Bye Bye. Newscast.

C (30:27)

Newscast from the BBC.

B (30:28)

Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds?

C (30:37)

And then, without having to do anything

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else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

C (30:55)

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to

B (31:04)

put my balls on the dashboard as

C (31:06)

he starts the engine.

A (31:07)

In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious.

B (31:11)

In 15 years, he's a billionaire.

C (31:13)

This is Toto Wolf, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. This week on Good, Bad Billionaire, How

B (31:21)

Toto Wolf made his billions.

C (31:23)

Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.