Old Newscast: How Labour Won In 1997 (Part 2)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast — Old Newscast: How Labour Won In 1997 (Part 2)
BBC News | July 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this second installment examining the landmark 1997 UK General Election, host Adam Fleming is joined by veteran BBC journalists Kirsty Wark and Jeremy Vine, both of whom reported on the event at the time. They reflect on the key players, campaign dynamics, and aftermath of Labour’s landslide victory, drawing on personal anecdotes and exploring how the election recast British politics. The conversation delves into campaign strategy, interpersonal rivalries, the creation of Tony Blair’s “New Labour,” and the election’s constitutional legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Peter Mandelson and the Dark Arts of Campaign Management

• Jeremy Vine and Kirsty Wark recall Mandelson’s “eminence grise” role in running the Labour campaign, his behind-the-scenes influence, and his reputation for strategic mastery.
• Kirsty notes Mandelson’s omnipresence and control:

  "He was really running the campaign. He was the one who was saying, 'I think you'll find that what Tony meant to say was this'… keeping a very close control." (03:20 – 03:56)

• Vine shares an early anecdote showing Mandelson’s knack for creating political trouble with plausible deniability:

  “You never saw the name of Mandelson anywhere near the story, right? And I thought, oh, that's what he does. The dark art.” (05:54)

2. Encounters with Tony Blair and Campaign Team Dynamics

• Kirsty describes limited personal interaction with Blair, but more substantial run-ins with Alastair Campbell, highlighting his professional ruthlessness and importance to Blair:

  “Blair needed Alastair more than, I suppose, a symbiotic relationship, of course, but he really needed Alistair to behave that way, to keep things in order.” (07:32)

• Jeremy compares Blair to a “rock star”, references his charm and performative skills, but also his ability to create an illusion of intimacy:

  “He’s made me think that he likes me, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t care.” (10:48) He humorously details never being invited to Checkers, in contrast to many fellow journalists. (11:10 – 11:25)

3. Labour’s Modest Policy Platform

• The group examines the famous five-point pledge card, noting that its commitments were modest and not especially predictive of what would follow, such as the Iraq war or major economic events:

  "[The pledge card] doesn't really tell us anything about what the Labour government ended up being like." (14:49)

• Kirsty points out the unpublicized but significant move to give Bank of England independence:

  "The deal had been done, I think before the election, but not announced... that Gordon Brown would be allowed to announce the independence of the bank of England." (15:34)

4. The TBGBs and New Labour Identity

• The ongoing tension between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown ("the TBGBs") is discussed, with Jeremy arguing Blair was always on the right of the party:

  “If you put [Labour MPs] in a line from the most left wing to the most right wing, Tony Blair would be the last one on the line. I don't think he was ever Labour at all.” (12:45)

• Kirsty sees Labour’s accommodation of Blair as pragmatic, with the party more focused on power than ideological purity.

5. An Old-Fashioned, Predictable Campaign

• Reflecting on the campaign’s “boring” predictability, the hosts note the absence of modern technologies—no social media, no TV debates. The press conferences were more about stagecraft than breaking news:

  “There was absolutely nothing to do except look at their body language or... who decided to add. I don't actually remember much else happening.” (18:09)

6. Election Night: Dramatic Presentation

• David Dimbleby’s 10pm exit poll announcement marks a turning point (“Tony Blair is to be Prime Minister and a landslide is likely.” 02:11, 20:22).
• Kirsty amuses that the BBC’s initial coverage largely ignored the constitutional stakes for Scotland.
• Jeremy recollects election night chaos, being sent to the wrong party by Alastair Campbell as a practical joke, and finally witnessing Blair’s meticulously-timed “new dawn” arrival at the Royal Festival Hall:

  "They were timing it to the sun so that Blair could deliver this incredibly famous sound bite." (24:27-24:33) Blair: "A new dawn has broken." (24:33)

7. National Sentiment and Aftermath

• Kirsty describes a sense of excitement and relief at the change after years of “sleaze-ridden” Conservative rule (25:00).
• Jeremy and Kirsty analyze John Major’s hapless public image and the roots of Labour’s cautious spending promises—Labour stuck to Conservative spending for two years to prove their fiscal discipline.

8. Devolution and Constitutional Change

• Devolution, especially for Scotland and Wales, is depicted as one of Labour’s far-reaching legacies, despite mixed predictions of its effects on nationalism:

  "The shape of politics in the UK changed forever after 1997. And we now have a parliament in Scotland, we have a parliament in Wales... And that was absolutely unimaginable before the 97 election." (30:55)

• Kirsty recalls the failed experiment with regional assemblies in England but declares Scottish politics “endlessly interesting.” (19:36)

9. Reflections on the 1997 Election’s Place in Political Memory

• Adam Fleming characterizes 1997 as a benchmark for electoral success, though perhaps an unrealistic outlier:

  “1997 sort of became the benchmark… But actually it was a bit of an outlier, really.” (30:55)

• Jeremy muses about Blair’s missed opportunities for big infrastructure projects:

  “If you're Blair, I think you regret you… won a massive majority and you threw it away. I mean, he didn't. Where were the nuclear power stations?” (31:34)

• Kirsty celebrates the 1997 intake's impact on representation of women, but is concerned by modern pressures driving women out of politics:

  “What has changed for the good massively is… we have actually gone through an arc in terms of women coming into Parliament, women in senior jobs... but sadly... women are thinking now after the social media onslaught... Is it really worth it?” (31:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mandelson’s influence:
  “He was really running the campaign… he was monitoring things very, very closely.” — Kirsty Wark (03:20)
• On Blair’s stagecraft:
  “If you elect a guy who’s gonna time it to the sun, you’ve got the wrong guy.” — Jeremy Vine (24:22)
• On 1997’s impact:
  “The shape of politics in the UK changed forever after 1997. And we now have a parliament in Scotland, we have a parliament in Wales… And that was absolutely unimaginable before the 97 election.” — Kirsty Wark (30:55)
• On Labour’s early caution:
  “They had pledged what they did for education and a new education program… they were so terrified of being profligate… nothing much happened in those first two years apart from the Parliament.” — Kirsty Wark (27:07)
• David Dimbleby’s call:
  “As Big Ben strikes 10, the polls close… Tony Blair is to be Prime Minister and a landslide is likely.” — David Dimbleby (20:22)
• On enduring fascination:
  “You become fascinated with your quarry, don’t you? Presenters are fascinated with presenters.” — Jeremy Vine (11:25)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:10] Mandelson’s unofficial campaign control
• [05:40] Vine’s first encounter with Mandelson, “the dark art”
• [07:00] Alastair Campbell’s temperament and role
• [08:39] Blair’s modest policy program and pledge card
• [10:25] Personal anecdotes: Blair’s hyper attentiveness
• [12:45] TBGBs and the Blair-Brown relationship
• [14:49] The famous 1997 pledge card
• [15:34] Bank of England independence
• [18:09] The old-fashioned campaign and daily press conferences
• [20:22] BBC exit poll and Labour’s landslide projection
• [24:33] The “new dawn” and Blair’s triumphal entrance
• [27:07] Labour sticking to Conservative spending plans
• [28:27] Francis Fukuyama, the “end of history,” and changing political expectations
• [30:55] Devolution and the legacy of 1997
• [31:46] The arc for women in politics

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Final Thoughts from the Hosts

• Jeremy Vine:
  Advocates the benefits of political stability and longer periods in office, in contrast to today’s rapid political cycles. (29:37)
• Kirsty Wark:
  Powerful reminder that 1997’s constitutional changes transformed the UK’s political landscape and attitudes toward devolution. (30:55)
• Adam Fleming:
  Suggests that 1997, while often cited as the model for success, was an exceptional event that may set unrealistic benchmarks for future leaders. (30:55)

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Summary:
This episode is a rich, reflective exploration of Labour’s 1997 landslide—filled with stories only seasoned insiders can tell, sharp analysis of campaign strategy and legacy, and candid recognition of how seismic the election was for the evolution of British politics.

Transcript

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[Adam Fleming]

Hello and welcome back to the old newscast studio where we are revisiting the 1997 general election, which is part of our summer box set telling the story of six different votes that helped to shape modern British politics. This is the second episode about the 97 election. So if you've not listened to the first one yet, go back to the newscast feed and you will hear me joined by Kirsty Wark and Jeremy vine, reliving very vividly their time as political correspondents and presenters on the road to the 97 general election. In this episode, the election is underway. The the infamous TBGBs. The fight between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown is starting to get underway and the countdown to the exit poll with David Dimbleby is ticking. So let's continue our journey backwards and forwards in time and we will be zipping forwards and backwards, sometimes simultaneously, in this episode of old Newscast newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[David Dimbleby]

Tony Blair is to be prime minister and a landslide is likely.

[Frank Skinner]

And if you all got anything about you, you get up there and you take Tony Blair's hand man.

[David Dimbleby]

Education and education.

[Adam Fleming]

So right, okay, we lost.

[Kirsty Wark]

A new dawn has broken.

[Frank Skinner]

Has enough.

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the old newscast studio and I'm joined by Jeremy Vine. Hello, Jeremy.

[Jeremy Vine]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

But mentally you're on Tony Blair's battle bus in 1997.

[Jeremy Vine]

I am, but I'm also listening to the voice of my friend Kirsty because we used to work together on Newsnight, so it's always a pleasure.

[Adam Fleming]

And Kirsty, you are doing Newsnight and you're in Scotland and you're getting ready for the election day itself, aren't you?

[Kirsty Wark]

I am. And, Jeremy, it's always lovely to work with you again, briefly, in a different zone.

[Adam Fleming]

Oh, this modern format called podcasting, which is slightly disorganized compared to your program.

[Jeremy Vine]

Well, the mind is, though, but the mind, you know, this, the thing is that you. It's very hard to do a timeline with the human brain, isn't it? Because we jump to the thing that's interesting.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes.

[Jeremy Vine]

Now, we had, what, 25 minutes talking about this election in the last podcast. We didn't use the word Mandelson once.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, Kirsty, just remind us what Mandelson's role was in 97.

[Kirsty Wark]

Well, actually, Mandelson's role was still, I mean, informally Complete Eminence Greece. But he was really running the campaign. I mean, he, as far as I remember, he was the man that was putting all the people in the right places. You know, literally a year before his fall from grace, his first fall from grace, he always appeared at my shoulder when you were doing something, he was always there, you know, just suddenly appeared. And he was the one who was saying, well, I think you'll find that what Tony meant to say was that this or. I think you'll find that what Gordon meant to say was that, you know, he was really, he was monitoring things very, very closely, keeping a very close control.

[David Dimbleby]

That is.

[Kirsty Wark]

I am right. He was running the campaign, wasn't he?

[Jeremy Vine]

Oh, yeah. But maybe without that official role. Because, of course, Blair called him Bobby, reference to Bobby Kennedy, showing how close they were because of Jack and Bobby Kennedy. I, I, My memory, my first memory, when I arrived at Westminster, and I've got to say, I'm a bit of a political nerd, like you, Adam, and like Kirsty. So for me, I know they say politics is show business for ugly people, but I genuinely thought I'd walked into a movie set to look around in 19. When was it? 1993. I arrived and to see someone like Michael Heseltine or John Biffin or, you know, some of these, actually John Smith and, you know, to have John Prescott saying, oh, Jeremy, and oh, my goodness, this guy knows who I am. It was incredible. So the first time I met Mandelson, I was standing in the street, bright day, sunlight, John Smith, labor leader Mandelson, walks up to me wearing this tweedy houndstooth yellow jacket, which looks to me like a country squire who's retired. And I said, how are you doing? What are you up to? Because I'M kind of fascinated by this guy who's got, as far as I can tell, no political future whatsoever under Smith because Smith hates him. And he says, well, John has let me do something on Vera Lynn. And I said, what the hell do you mean by that? Now what had happened was John Major had decided to have a VE Day anniversary thing. And it was really half asked, you know, it was things like Spam fritter frying and then Vera and, and Mandelson said, I'm in touch with Vera and I think she may be able to help. And I thought, I didn't know what he was talking about. Like, you're giving me a blank expression. The following day, you know, the next weekend, the Sunday Times, John Major's VE Day commemorations in chaos as Vera Lynn pulls out.

[Adam Fleming]

So I, I thought convinced Viril in to pull out to make the government look bad.

[Jeremy Vine]

And there was a whole thing about we're going to have street parties, but no one wanted them. And there was Spam fritter frying and who wants to do that? And that was my first indication. You never saw the name of Mandelson anywhere near the story, right? And I thought, oh, that's what he does.

[Adam Fleming]

The dark art.

[Jeremy Vine]

That's it. And then subsequently brought in by Blair in the very first political conference, I went to where he was and I was again young and silly. And I said, oh, hello, Peter. Are you the, the Dark master? Are you the puppeteer? And he said, can I make it clear to you, Jeremy? I'm not pulling any strings. I'm not the Prince of D and I'm not manipulating anyone. And then his phone went and he turned away from me and he just went, this must be diffused. So that's when he really started being Peter Mans.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, that's inhabiting the character Kirsty. In the previous episode, Jeremy was telling that slightly odd anecdote about Alastair Campbell stealing some of his chocolate cake. And then the fact that Blair just sort of couldn't really respond to it on a human level because he was being so kind of professional and disciplined. What were your encounters with, with Tony Blair like in that period?

[Kirsty Wark]

I didn't actually have very many encounters with Tony Blair. Encounters with Alistair Campbell. Alist Campbell used to get very upset when my conservative, I think voting mother would play golf with his aunt in Comoric. And to remind him that not all of his family was necessarily on the left was actually very funny. You could always get a rise out of him. And he was, he's so funny. Alastair Campbell, because he is a human being who has actually got a very soft side and it can be very funny and he has an incredible connection with Scotland, but he can just sometimes. Well, then he could just sometimes flip into somebody who is actually really incredibly rude and forthright. And the interesting thing about that was that Blair would see that, but nothing would happen, because Blair needed Alastair more than, I suppose, a symbiotic relationship, of course, but he really needed Alistair to behave that way, to keep things in order before the election and more formally after the election.

[Adam Fleming]

And also, Kirsty, I mean, you were saying you weren't hanging out with Blair very much, but his Persona, he was a terrible cliche to say he was a rock star, but he was like a superstar, wasn't he, at that point?

[Kirsty Wark]

Well, to some people, I mean, I. You know, the thing is, Blair was somebody who very. And I think there's no, there's no mistake that the reason for some of the things that happened was there were a lot of lawyers around and he knew what he had to do. Militants had already been dealt with. People were desperately worried that they were going to be out of perfect soil. So they essentially went along with New Labour. Whether they believed in, you know, anything he was going to be doing with schools after the election or anything, he. They were prepared to put up with it, to get into power, is what I think about Blair.

[Adam Fleming]

And then, Jeremy, the, The campaign itself that labor ran was quite. The goals were quite modest. The policies were quite modest.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, When I was in Westminster working in the 90s, I suddenly realized I couldn't really have any political convictions, because what I realized is the louder they shout at each other, the more they agree. And, and that, to me meant the whole thing was to some degree performative. But I did get to know Blair a bit because I was on the battle bus. They had three. Most of the time, the journalists were stuck in the third one and he was in the first one, but. But sometimes there were moments when I was in the bus on my own and he was in the front, you know, is that crazy? And I remember one time he was. It was Barry. I was, gosh, testing myself here. Backbencher, who used to work for the bank of England, called Ruth Kelly. Was she Berry or Bolton?

[Kirsty Wark]

No, Ruth Kelly. Yeah.

[David Dimbleby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

So she was standing in that election and the, the bus, he come on the bus and he waved and, and people had cheered and then the doors closed and then the windows were all smoked so no one could see Him. So he came and sat with me and someone brought him a cup of tea. And I said, you know, do you, do you worry that was trying to think, how do I make conversation as, as Adam says, there's a rock star element. We're right in the middle of a general election. And I said, do you worry that with all that power, you won't be able to change anything? I mean, is it not. I, I said, is it not? Can you not do more as a Christian yourself, Tony, to just try to sort of improve the life of your next door neighbor? Now, actually, as it turns out, that was a very bad question because his next door neighbor would be Gordon Brown. And they famously fell out for years and years and years. So we had this weird conversation where we were kind of fencing. And he then said, yeah, because you, you've got a, you've got a faith as well, Jeremy again, you know, and he was incredibly personal to me. And then he said, you're wearing the same shoes you wore yesterday. And I said, God, you're observant. That's incredible. And I left thinking, this guy's phenomenal. Like Clinton was.

[David Dimbleby]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

So Clinton could never get out of a room because he would talk and talk.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

And you'd lock on and he would never let you go. And. But over two things happened then that made me realize this was not the case. Every interview I gave, he gave me after that. He said, you're wearing the same shoes you wore last time. I thought, oh, this is your thing, is this?

[David Dimbleby]

Yes.

[Jeremy Vine]

Because then I think, oh, you've got a great memory. I was wearing different shoes.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

I wasn't going to point it out. And the other thing was, and this is going to sound very self centered, and I did like him very much, but I also thought he, he, he's made me think that he likes me, but he doesn't. He doesn't care. And the reason I say that was at some point, this will make you laugh. During the whole labor years, they released a list of all the journalists who've been to Checkers. And I tell you something, every single bloody journalist in Britain was on that list except me. Every single one. But I, so I, I became. You look at, I mean, this is the classic political correspondent thing. You become fascinated with your quarry, don't you? Presenters are fascinated with presenters.

[Kirsty Wark]

That's what I was saying the last episode, last episode. That what happened was. I think some journalists became always almost too enthralled simply not suggesting you, but simply because they knew that they were, you were better to be with the person that was about to become Prime Minister, clearly, than someone who was about to leave. I mean, that was always going to be the case, but it was the fact that they were this group of, you know, relatively young people. You know, there was Mandelson, you know, obviously there's Tim Allen then. And there were others too, you know. You know, smart people like Robin Cook, you know, Alistair Darling, Gordon Brown, all those people, you know, the fallouts were way ahead. You know, we didn't know half of what was going on really, but there was obviously going to be a tussle. We didn't really know. And the thing was that I think that Gordon was so much Old labor and New labor, you know, that, you know, he was dyed in the wool. But Tony was just, you know, people started to talk about him as a Johnny come lately. You know, he was New labor, but was he as committed to the cause? That's I. What I think. I feel now. And I think that obviously with the legacy has been, you know, Iraq has actually made a huge dent in that legacy. But I think he was the only. He was the man to get it across the line. He was absolutely the man to get it across the line. And by the time.

[Jeremy Vine]

Well, yeah, but I mean, I think Corbyn was a vomiting out of the Blair history. And I think when I was at Westminster briefly after the 97 election, you see they got 400 Labor MPS. If you put them in a line from the most left wing to the most right wing, Tony Blair would be the last one on the line. I don't think he was ever labor at all. I'm sorry to say it. I don't. I mean, I know it was indeed a Labour Party, but the thing was,

[Kirsty Wark]

maybe it was performative and they knew they had to have. And they knew he would get them in.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah. And also I've heard people argue when I've said this before. They've argued, they've said, well, wait a minute. Had he not been labor in his heart, he is the person who failed to win in Beaconsfield would have gone with the SDP in 1983. And it was. You had to really believe in the cause to stay during Michael. Michael Foot's Labor.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes.

[Jeremy Vine]

So there's that. I was gonna. Can I just say. I was gonna say Mandelson. I just wanted to make sure. We mentioned the Littleburn Saddleworth by election, which I had to go to, which was in the middle of the 90s when Blair said to Mandelson, all right, let's see what you can do. And Matt and I, I covered the Littleburns, Edworth by election. I was up there for five weeks for this thing and it was a Tory seat that labor thought they could get and Mandelson had to do the whole campaign and so that was fascinating to see him being placed in the cockpit to see if he could do it.

[Adam Fleming]

Interesting. Just going back then to 97 and the Labour's modest ambitions. Because there was the pledge card, wasn't there? Which has become. Yeah, like a totemic thing in Labor. And I've got them written down here so you don't have to remember them. So it was cutting class sizes to under 30 for 5, 6 and 7 year olds. Introducing a fast track punishment scheme for persistent young offenders. Cutting NHS waiting lists by treating an extra 100,000 patients and releasing £100 million saved from NHS red tape. Get 250,000 under 25 year olds off benefits and into work by using money from a windfall levy on the privatized utilities because the utilities have just become privatized and setting tough rules for government spending and borrowing, ensuring low inflation and strengthening the economy so that interest rates are as low as possible to make all families better off. What a mouthful. Hard to remember those five points. But Jeremy, actually, that doesn't really tell us anything about what the Labour government ended up being like.

[Jeremy Vine]

No, because you didn't include declare war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the fact that we were arguably grievously unprepared going into the world's biggest financial crisis, that we overspent at the top of the boom and that you end up politically with this really unfortunate tbgb's, as it was called, where, you know, we'll never really understand exactly how bad that got. But I read a great book by Andrew Rawnsley called the End of the Party, which is all about how you were either one or the other. The Thatcher phrase. Is he one of us? And that was. Why is it that this chance of the Prime Minister thing happens again and again and again? Lawson Thatcher, you know, so that. Yeah, they could have put that on the pledge card. We promised to fall out with each other within five years.

[Kirsty Wark]

The deal had been done, I think before the election, but not announced that. That Gordon Brown would be allowed to announce the independence of the bank of England. And I think what Blair did was he kind of left that economic stuff to Brown.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah, for sure.

[Kirsty Wark]

And that was quite a big deal. It wasn't a pledge card, of course, but I think it was quite.

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[Kirsty Wark]

A big deal.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, and that was day two of the labor government, wasn't it?

[Jeremy Vine]

And we can't always see where we are in the cycle. So to be fair to Brown, he didn't know we were at the top of the biggest boom in history when he was spending 3% more than we were taking in tax. And he didn't know that 25% of all corporation tax was just phantom receipts from banks that were already bust. So and, and, and the economy was

[Adam Fleming]

growing quarter after quarter after quarter and

[Jeremy Vine]

so you, you add and you pay more and then we have the financial crisis and Covid and Brexit and now we're in a different world.

[Adam Fleming]

Kirsty Just going back to how the 1997 election played out on a sort of daily basis. Obviously there was no social media, there was, people didn't really have mobile phones, there was no TV debates. A lot of it was quite old fashioned and things like a daily press conference every morning where Blair and Brian would sit there and just take loads of questions from people for like two

[Kirsty Wark]

hours and it ended up being totally boring in a way. There was absolutely nothing to do except look at their body Language or the way that they addressed each other or who decided to add. I don't actually remember much else happening. I don't actually remember them being together. Every day I think I'm trying to.

[Jeremy Vine]

I'm good. I'm getting confusion. The war of Jennifer's ear was 87. Is that right? The grommet. So this Prescott punch was 2001.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

Okay, so there was nothing happening in 97.

[Adam Fleming]

So actually it was quite boring.

[Jeremy Vine]

Well, yeah, I mean. And the other thing is, the greatest elections are the ones you can't predict. And this was also predictable.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, but, you know. Yes, it was absolutely predictable. But then what happened was that the constitutional issue was not just about Scotland, it was then about thinking about how you would change the big cities. And look, we've now just obviously had a big, you know, we've now got a leader, a Labour leader and leader. Labour Prime Minister, who had been obviously in Westminster, but then went on to really recast the whole idea of a mayor and a greater. It was always going to be that the big failure, one of the big failures, early failures, was the idea of these regional assemblies, you know, as if they had said, well, actually, we have to. We will. Scotland will get an election, so we'll have to have regional assemblies and Newcastle and regional assemblies. And that never happened. Remember that?

[David Dimbleby]

Never.

[Kirsty Wark]

That devolution never worked out because it was boring.

[Frank Skinner]

I mean, I think.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yeah, for me, what I love is, I think Scottish politics are endlessly interesting, I have to say. And actually, I think the machinations that we didn't really know about straight after the election, about the resistance, you know, when they were putting together the whole idea of a Scottish Parliament, the resistance from people apparently like Jack Straw and all the Westminster mandarins, to anything that, luckily Donald Dewar was a smarter lawyer than a lot of them to put together how that was all going to operate. And it was meant to deliver a different kind of politics where you would never have a single party in power. Look how that played out laterally.

[Adam Fleming]

So we got to the end of this quite boring, but sort of a bit cinematical action. So then the Polls close at 10pm on 1 May, which means David Dimbleby can announce the result of the BBC's exit poll.

[David Dimbleby]

As Big Ben strikes 10, the polls close. We can give you the results of our exit poll. We've spoken to 14,000 people in 200 constituencies tonight and we hope they've been telling us the truth. There it is, 10 o' clock and we say Tony Blair is to be Prime Minister and a landslide is likely. And reaction from Sedgefield already down there on the right in the Labour Club, all applauding their Conservative Party headquarters. Rather more sombre scenes. So here are the details. Tony Blair to be Prime Minister and this is why. Labour 47%, the Conservatives 29%, according to our exit poll. That would be the worst result, not just this century, but if you care to go back that far, to the Tory vote after the Great Reform act in 1932, when they were led by the Duke of Wellington. The Liberal Democrats on 18%, pretty much what they did at the last election. Others on six.

[Kirsty Wark]

So what happens is that David Dimble becomes on air and talks about, this is what's going to happen in this election. Obviously we have the exit poll, et cetera, et cetera. One of the biggest things that's going to happen in that election is a recasting of politics in the uk and the BBC doesn't even mention those words. And Harley talks about Scotland in the first half hour. It was hilarious. And then I never saw this, of course, because I was on air in Scotland. And then you get Frank Skinner, an enormous amount of money, flying around England in a helicopter, checking out what's going on at the counts and things like that. Who dreamt that up?

[David Dimbleby]

And in addition to many correspondents, we have one special roving reporter tonight, Frank Skinner.

[Frank Skinner]

Hello, David. We're in mid air at the moment. Where are we, Alec? There you go. I might pop down for a cake. We're gonna get to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham. I'm winning. To get the word on the street. I'm going to supply a sort of a low brow down at heel counterpoint to your intellectual analysis in the studio. So I'm sort of BBC's bit of rough for the night.

[Adam Fleming]

I remember in my house we bought a new TV for election night.

[Jeremy Vine]

Well, I was tricked by Alistair Campbell. So I said to Alistair, who obviously didn't like me, I don't mind that at all. I wouldn't want him to like me. I get on well with him now. But I said, I said to him, where's Blair going to be on the night? Because they've said to me, you can go wherever you want on the night. He said, right, what you need to know is, but it's secret. Don't tell anyone. He said, milbank Tower. Massive party.

[Adam Fleming]

Because that was Labor.

[Jeremy Vine]

Get to Milbank Tower. And I was on the doorstep for seven hours without seeing anybody while Francine Stock was at the Royal Festival hall interviewing everybody. Yes, Bless Her. So I thought that's a last blooming dagger blow from Campbell.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yes, that's.

[Adam Fleming]

That's a dodgy tip off.

[Jeremy Vine]

And Kirsty, just dodgy, just dishonest.

[Adam Fleming]

And Kirsty, just explain what was happening at the Royal Festival Hall.

[Kirsty Wark]

Oh, the Royal Festival hall was the great and the good. There were also cultural people there, there were MPs and it was essentially a crowning, wasn't it? I mean, I wasn't there.

[Jeremy Vine]

I was, I was there. So I was sent there in the early hours of the morning and I had to stand with that extraordinary group of people, Mandelson dancing with Kinnock, do you remember? And then they kept saying, well, Blair's coming, Blair's coming, he's not coming. And it just took ages for. Because I wanted Dimbleby to throw to me to say, and Blair's arriving. And what.

[Adam Fleming]

Because Blair had spent election night in Sedgefield, his correct. In the north of England.

[Jeremy Vine]

So. So I had finally got to where the party was, albeit eight hours later than I should have been. And the thing that I realized, and I should have realized that the significance of this at the time was that Blair's arrival was being delayed so that he could step onto the stage just as the first ray of sun hit the stage. So we already had dawn, it was light, but he hadn't got the sun. And that, you know when you think Gordon Brown, when he became Prime Minister, the very first press conference he did, his whole head was hidden by a pillar.

[Frank Skinner]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Vine]

It may be that if you elect a guy who's gonna time it to the sun, you've got the wrong guy.

[Adam Fleming]

And the reason they were timing it to the sun was so that Blair could deliver this incredibly famous sound bite.

[Kirsty Wark]

A new dawn has broken has.

[Adam Fleming]

And it is wonderful.

[Kirsty Wark]

We always said that if we had

[Jeremy Vine]

the courage to change that we could do it. And we did it.

[Adam Fleming]

And then Kirsty, I mean it's. I hate saying what was the mood of the nation that morning, but I remember it feeling like everyone was quite excited.

[Kirsty Wark]

I think people were excited because it was something different, it was something new. Remember that they'd had really practically since the end of 1990, they'd had a kind of sleaze ridden government which economically was all over the place, which as far as Europe was concerned was all over the. Was all over the place as well though that never went away. And at that time, do you remember that? I can remember and I think Jeremy's done a bit of this, that there was something that John Major who now seems incredibly statesmanlike. But then he just seemed so single. Note that I can't remember one thing that he delivered that the country was enthused by. They may have agreed with it, but they weren't enthused by. And in a sense, that's exactly what happened with Starmer.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah, I would say Major so different from Starmer. He could. Major could look down a camera lens and you felt he was actually a presenter in a way. He was no good at speeches, but he could do a one on one very, very well. The funny thing is that there was a journalist who, who started this thing that he tucks his shirt into his underpants and the journalist was Alistair Campbell of the Daily Mirror. So Campbell was already on maneuvers at

[Adam Fleming]

that point creating this sort of caricature of Major as sort of a tragic old man.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah, but I think the word we're looking for is hapless. But he was the prisoner of events. We haven't even mentioned the Whipless Seven or whatever who will resign the whip over Europe and the fact that he had to call out his bastards and he had to resign as Prime Minister or resign as Conservative leader. Oh, my Lord, the. But in the end he probably by. Okay, we had a crash in 92, which was horrific. 90 end of Thatcher. And in those days you would not hose money in. So the whole country just everything crashed, all the properties, people lost their jobs, they lost their homes. And actually if you have that, there is a bit of a purging process. And by the time Blair came in, we were back on track and ready for a boom. So Blair could look in his rearview mirror and say, thank you, John, for that.

[Adam Fleming]

And of course, Kirsty just going back to Labour as kind of modesty of its ambitions. One of the big pledges was to stick to the Conservative spending plans for

[Kirsty Wark]

the first two years, which they did remember. So in fact, nothing huge happened in those two years that was going to cost anything more than those pledges, which actually were so modest because they were so terrified and seen of being profligate. They were so terrified when there was so much to do and that they couldn't, they couldn't do it. They were very lucky actually when they came in because in those first few years, for example, I don't seem to remember there was any particular need for huge amounts of defence spending. For example, you know, they had pledged what they did for education and a new education program. They pledged what they were going to do for the nhs, which proved to be woefully little. But Actually, there was nothing much happened in those first two years apart from the Parliament. And I'm saying that was massive, absolutely massive.

[Adam Fleming]

And then that was in 99.

[Jeremy Vine]

There was an American historian called Francis Fukuyama who wrote a paper called Kind of History.

[Kirsty Wark]

Yes.

[Jeremy Vine]

And he, he wrote the idea the basically we're at the end of wars, that everything is now moving towards liberal democracy. And he said there will be no more big events. And this paper ended up on the desk of the then US President, George Bush Senior, who took it very, very seriously. And I, I feel there was. That Francis Fukuyama was in the ascendant at this. In this period, Major Blair, etc, that we can just sort our own countries out, we don't have to worry about anything else. And then 911 happened and the whole world changed.

[BBC Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kirsty Wark]

But remember also the Fukuyama thing, which didn't work in a sense. It worked with 2003 of the accession states coming into Europe, do you remember? And all the, you know, the Baltics and, you know, Slovenia, Slovakia, in the south, you had these countries and it looked like an optimistic time and how Fukuyama has since been disproved actually all over the world.

[Adam Fleming]

Also, two really strong memories I have. One is a true one and one is a false one. The true one is that just a few weeks after the 1997 election and there's sort of such a feel good factor in the country. Britain won the Eurovision Song Contest with Katrina and the waves.

[Cachava/Wayfair Advertiser]

Wow.

[Adam Fleming]

So that added to the. That added to the mood of excitement. And then my false memory is that John Major actually had quite a good campaign because he went out on his soapbox and was just going to town centre. He was like chatting to people. But that was actually the 1992 election. That wasn't 1997 at all.

[Kirsty Wark]

No.

[Jeremy Vine]

Yeah.

[Kirsty Wark]

You just wished it to be true because it would have been quite interesting.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, let's end on some big thoughts then, because we've discussed a lot of small anecdotes and big themes in these last two episodes. Jeremy, do you want to have a final thought?

[Jeremy Vine]

Well, I think if you look at the span of John Major through to Blair, so you go from 1992 to 2007, which is 15 years. You see how we now telescope everything. So those. So Blair would be in trouble within weeks of coming to office and Major would have gone probably in 91. And it actually benefits us to stretch things out a bit. I think there's, there's something. Stability comes partly from electing someone and committing to them. I Think is the lesson for our times.

[Kirsty Wark]

I. I think for me, the big thought is how people can get things wrong. In 1997, George Robertson, who was Shadow Scottish Secretary, said devolution would kill nationalism stone dead. Whereas Tam DL said that devolution. What does he say? Devolution is a motorway to independence without an exit ramp. Both were proved wrong. But the shape of politics in the UK changed forever after 1997. And we now have a parliament in Scotland, we have a parliament in Wales. Whether you like it or not, it's all changed. And everybody backs. Everybody publicly backs the idea of these things. And that was absolutely unimaginable before the 97 election, though, in fact, a lot of people had supported the idea of devolution. They just hadn't found the right way forward.

[Adam Fleming]

I think my takeaway is 1997 sort of became the benchmark for what sort of a good election victory and a strong government looked like. But actually it was a bit of an outlier, really. And actually our politics has always been. People are always saying, oh, that's what success is in politics. But actually it was a really unusual, spectacular success that Blair had. And actually we maybe shouldn't be using 1997 and the amount of stuff that he could get through Parliament or the amount of changes he made or the size of his majority and how that then actually made change. And actually our politics has always been a bit more chaotic and that that's.

[Jeremy Vine]

But if you're Blair, I think you regret you. You won a massive majority and you threw it away. I mean, he didn't. Where were the nuclear power stations? You know, we're in a situation where the reservoirs where, you know, the big projects didn't happen.

[Kirsty Wark]

But what I would say that what has changed for the good massively, is that, you know, that ghastly photograph of Blair's babes, which was just appalling, of course, but, you know, we have actually gone through an arc in terms of women coming into Parliament, women in senior jobs. Look at that whole lineup in 97, all the men, the Blair men, going into that election. What you've also got is the same in Scotland, but sadly, what you've also got is the arc going down the way where women are thinking now after the social media onslaught and everything else. Is it really worth it? And I think that is desperately sad because I think some of our most talented politicians are women.

[Jeremy Vine]

Here's a thought. When we got a new Prime Minister the other day, Andy Burnham, the Sun didn't lead on it. Isn't that Incredible. Yes, because they let on Kevin Keegan, which arguably is a more important story.

[BBC Announcer]

Wow.

[Adam Fleming]

Isn't it interesting? Our successors will be doing an old newscast about that day. Maybe we'll get to be guests on it.

[Jeremy Vine]

About Andy Burnham's.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes, exactly that.

[Jeremy Vine]

Believe me, they won't be doing a

[Kirsty Wark]

newscast, honestly, it'll be AI. The BBC will just be AI.

[Adam Fleming]

Oh, yeah, you'll be able to choose. Who do you want to present your old newscast? Do you want Jeremy vine, that. That. That old has been. Or do you want Kirsty War? Dame Kirsty Wark? Or do you want Adam Fleming? Whatever happened to him?

[Kirsty Wark]

Oh, well, he's living in a Bahamanian island now, sunning himself after two years.

[Adam Fleming]

Podcasting doesn't pay that well. Right, so there we are. Tony Blair is firmly ensconced in Downing street, where he will stay for a decade. Jeremy, thank you very much.

[Jeremy Vine]

Thank you very much.

[Adam Fleming]

And Kirsty, thanks to you too.

[Kirsty Wark]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

Thank you for listening to this weekend's old newscast. Next weekend, we will tell the story of how David Cameron won the Conservative leadership in 2005. Another very, very pivotal moment, it turns out. But in the meantime, the next episode of Normal Newscast will be in your feeds very soon. Bye bye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Outro Host]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can even email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-3301-239480. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.