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[00:00]
George Eustice
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
[00:06]
Podcast Advertiser
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[01:12]
Chris Mason
On this episode of Old Newscast we're going to be looking back at the 2005 Conservative leadership election. The contest which would we know now set the scene for the Tories to return to government after a decade out of power than a decade. The contest came off the back of the general election in the same year where Tony Blair secured his third election win, albeit with a greatly reduced majority, with questions over the Iraq war lingering. The Tory leader Michael Howard had improved the Conservatives result based on the last election, but despite calls to stay, he announced he would stand down shortly after polling day. So who would emerge to lead the conservatives into the 2010 election and possibly beyond? That is what we will be discussing on this episode of Old Newscast Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
[02:01]
Podcast Advertiser
Having a young, vigorous, energetic leader, I
[02:03]
George Eustice
think I have a very clear idea of what the British people now expect from this government for a third term. I've said that if people don't deliver, they go. Various Tories did at one stage say,
[02:14]
Chris Mason
yeah, I smoked the odd split.
[02:16]
Podcast Advertiser
Come to think of it, it's not
[02:17]
James Landale
such a bad idea.
[02:18]
Chris Mason
Well, James Landale is here. James, you are a diplomatic correspondent now, but in 2005 you were I was
[02:24]
James Landale
the chief political correspondent for BBC News, which basically meant that I was on the in those days, I think it was called the the news 24, the 24 hour domestic news channel.
[02:35]
Chris Mason
Some people still call it that.
[02:36]
James Landale
And we. Yes we do. I think now we officially the news channel. And that meant that I was basically in front of a camera or a microphone pretty much 247 regurgitating and telling
[02:47]
Chris Mason
the story of British Politics and receiving calls from the man sitting next to you, George Eustace. Hello, George.
[02:52]
George Eustice
Hello.
[02:52]
Chris Mason
We got to know you as a Tory MP and a Cabinet minister. Lots of, lots of different departments. But in 2005 you were.
[03:00]
George Eustice
Well, in 2005, I ran the Conservative press office during that general election, so worked very closely with Michael Howard's team. And then shortly after that election, I became, you know, David Cameron's press secretary during that, that very eventful leadership campaign.
[03:15]
Chris Mason
So the big thing that happened in 2005 was the general election and that was turned out to be Tony Blair's last general election. James, what do you remember from, from that campaign and what did of mean for the country?
[03:29]
James Landale
I think it was certainly, it, it was certainly a campaign that had more questions about it. 2001, you know, everybody knew what was going to happen. It was quite a boring election. So. But this one was, the context was different. You know, Blairism was looking tarnished old with bit whiskery. The, the, the legacy of Iraq hung pretty heavily over that election. So there was a certain degree of uncertainty about how, you know, labor sort of reinvent who keeps it going and, and therefore, you know, what opportunity would be presented to the Conservatives at that time. So there was a degree of uncertainty. We knew that Blair's time was coming to an end at some point in the future. We didn't know precisely when, but that, that, that sense of teleology, the end point, you know, was arriving and, you know, would, you know, would Gordon Brown be the future? So that was the context of the election. And then the question, of course was, you know, what, what the Tories would, would gain from it or not.
[04:29]
Chris Mason
And George, I'm just thinking back to the episode we did about 1997 and the euphoria around New labor and Blair arriving in Downing street and all these dire warnings that the Conservatives were done for maybe two generations, not just one. But actually by 2005, that wasn't looking quite so true, was it?
[04:47]
George Eustice
Yeah, Michael Howard, to his credit, you know, he was a professional operator, certainly, you know, he was obviously quite associated with the, the Thatcher and major governments and he couldn't really get away from that. But he knew, he knew how to run an operation. He was a tough taskmaster. I remember him, you know, occasionally ringing me at midnight saying, what are we doing about the BBC midnight news headlines and so on. But, you know, he, he definitely dragged the party, you know, back up on its feet. And although the election didn't work out for us, you know, he won a modest Number of additional seats, I think about 30 extra seats. He certainly put up a pretty good fight and you know it. What we found in that election is why the slogan that was used. Are you thinking what we', thinking, which is often mocked by people, that the rationale behind that was when you tested conservative policies with the public, they liked them. As soon as you said these are conservative policies, they didn't like them anymore. So there was still a very serious sort of brand issue with the Conservatives that people were struggling to overcome. And in fact, they didn't overcome that in the 2005 election. They liked what we were saying. They weren't ready to forgive us for the sort of major years yet.
[05:56]
Chris Mason
And the are you thinking what we're thinking? Thing was quite associated with immigration, wasn't it? Michael Howard was starting to inject immigration, international conversation.
[06:05]
George Eustice
He was. I mean, I, I think it's probably more fair to say that Linton Crosby injected immigration into it because it was coming up in the polling.
[06:12]
Chris Mason
The Australian guru.
[06:13]
George Eustice
Yes, Michael Howard used to protest that actually during that election campaign, I think he only did one speech on immigration, but it was sufficient that that meant that's all he ever really got asked for. So he used to be very frustrated as he, as he did interviews. People would go on, why are you saying this about immigration?
[06:28]
Chris Mason
But it was actually a much wider thing.
[06:30]
George Eustice
He wanted to have a wider agenda, but he felt that immigration was an important point. It was one of his five points, but it was only one of the five. But it, in the end, it started to overshadow and dominate things in a way that he wasn't that happy with. But once you set these things alight, it's very hard sometimes to control them.
[06:46]
James Landale
George is absolutely right. But what it showed, what that election revealed, was that just by having a good operator, you know, a good, a good leader on basic levels, which Michael Howard was in terms of running an organization that actually the, the tone and the age and the presentation and the feel factor of that leadership had an impact too. And Michael Howard as a politician was, you know, was, he was very legalistic. And this is something that had followed him throughout his career. And so he was always quite able to dive into the detail and the weeds of a policy and get into a very sort of legalistic argument rather than a broad brush political argument. And I think that's the lesson that the Conservatives took from that election was that actually we need, we need to change. You know, it's not good enough just to say that Labor's running out of Steam. There needs to be a sense of change. And I think that that idea was impressed upon the Tory party and its membership and its MPs during that electoral process.
[07:52]
Chris Mason
And here is what happened in that election.
[07:54]
George Eustice
1997, 2001 and now 2005. Tony Blair is back at number 10, but his majority is slashed by nearly 100 seats.
[08:06]
Chris Mason
And so the result of the 2005 election is that the Labour majority falls from 167 to 66. Their share of the popular vote is 35.2%, which actually seems quite good now. It was very, very low then.
[08:18]
George Eustice
We used to say it was one of the lowest ever.
[08:20]
Chris Mason
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And Tony Blair is saying things like this.
[08:24]
George Eustice
And I think I have a very
[08:25]
Podcast Advertiser
clear idea of what the British people
[08:26]
George Eustice
now expect from this government for a third term.
[08:33]
Podcast Advertiser
And I want to say to them
[08:34]
George Eustice
very directly
[08:38]
Chris Mason
that I, we, the government
[08:40]
George Eustice
are going to focus relentlessly now
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Podcast Advertiser
on the priorities the people have set for us.
[08:47]
Chris Mason
The result for the conservatives in 2005 is better than recent history would have suggested. The. But below what Michael Howard would have wanted to achieve. So he stands down.
[08:56]
George Eustice
I've said that if people don't deliver, they go. And for me, delivering meant winning the election. I didn't do that. I didn't do that despite my best efforts and I want to do now what is best for my party and above all for my country. He wanted to stand down immediately, so to say. So it's a very. It's very hard to understand unless you're in a campaign. It's a bit like being in the trenches and you really bond with people during that sort of two months. But I think Michael Howard felt at the end that he was. That he was exhausted, that actually he wasn't going to carry on and so he should go sooner rather than later. But there were a lot of people that wanted him to stay on for an interim period. And it was principally because in many wings of the party there was a concern that you would just go from Michael Howard to a straightforward coronation of David Davis, who was seen as the. The front runner at that time. And there are a lot of people in the party who didn't want that outcome and they wanted us to at least have time as a party to reflect and to consider things properly. So I remember now why did they
[10:06]
Chris Mason
not like David Davis?
[10:08]
George Eustice
There was a lot of people thought David Davis would sort of double down on that traditional sort of right wing agenda and that actually to reconnect with the. We needed a slightly different brand of conservatism. We needed to rediscover things like family, you know, and society, role of the third sector, charity sector, all those things that David Cameron went on to talk about and to really present a sort of modern twist on conservatism. And so. And David Cameron, by this stage already decided that he was likely to stand. This was in. In June, but I remember after that election literally being in the cars on the way to. I think it was Putney. Michael Howard eventually announced his resignation and literally on the way there, people calling him to try and persuade him not to go there and then, but to announce he would go, but say not till after the. The conference. And in the end they, they succeeded and. And he was persuaded to say that he would go, but not just yet. And the other idea was that during that interim period, he would try and change the party constitution so that it wouldn't be members deciding the. The candidate. In the end, there was a feeling among some that the changes that William Hagg had brought in, where members decided who the leader should be, were actually
[11:26]
Chris Mason
quite counterproductive because it led to Ian Duncan Smith.
[11:29]
George Eustice
It led to Ian Duncan Smith, yes. And you could end up with situations where you had party leaders that just didn't have the confidence of their mps, and that was very damaging. So Michael Howe did make an attempt to try and reform the party constitution. So there was some engagement with associations and branches, but where MPs ultimately made the decision, now that was that. That failed in the end, there was pushback from the voluntary side of the party and so that rule change never happened.
[11:55]
Chris Mason
And James, I have a very vivid memory of working on Newsround at the time. So that was at 5:25 and then watching the 6 o' clock news that night. And maybe it was you, I think, or actually was it Vicki Young doing a piece about the Conservative Shadow Cabinet reshuffle. And it was quite high up on the news running order and I was quite confused why this was such a big. And then I watched the piece and it was all about the rise and the appointment of these two guys, George Osborne as Shadow Chancellor and David Cameron as Shadow Education Secretary. Why was that such an important piece of television news that night?
[12:29]
James Landale
You've got to remember that George Osborne and David Cameron were very close to Michael Howard. They had been, you know, part of the leadership team, you know, the group advising him on Prime Minister's questions and all that sort of stuff. And as George so eloquently says, one of the reasons for Michael Howard delaying his departure, culture, was to allow the sort of, you know, the youth of the party to sort of find their feet and at least be part of a debate, if not, you know, get into a place where they could at least challenge David Davis and some of the other contenders. And so therefore, the appointments of those jobs were crucial. And what was really interesting was that George Osborne got the big job, which was Shadow Chancellor, at the age of 33. At the age of 33, count, you know, to challenging Gordon Brandon. That is a huge job. And. And so to that extent, you'd think, okay, you know, Osborne's won that particular sort of leadership. Sort of. That's really good. You know, he's in a. Actually, Cameron always says afterwards, because he got shadow education, that actually that was far better for him because it was less onerous. He didn't have to face this great colossus called Gordon Brown and have to get on top of all the economic numbers and all the rest of it, as George did. Whereas David Cameron could focus on education much closer to the sort of messaging that he wanted to get into as part of his leadership campaign. I think David Cameron says that, you know, when he heard that Georgia got Shadow Chancellor, he sort of punched the air thinking, fantastic, that's really good.
[13:57]
Chris Mason
But what it meant, because he dodged
[13:58]
James Landale
the bullet, it was actually a little
[14:00]
George Eustice
bit different than that. My recollection is that Michael Howard offered Shadow Chancellor to David Cameron.
[14:06]
Chris Mason
Right.
[14:08]
George Eustice
And David Cameron said he would rather have education, because David felt that education was a better way to explain the sort of brand of conservatism that he wanted to outline the connection with different generation and other elements of conservatism, rather than just arguing over money. And in a very catchy way, Michael Howard took a very sort of. A bit of a dim view of that, I think, and sort of thought, well, how can you lead the party if you don't want to take on the top job of Chancellor? But nevertheless, respected. Respected that wish and gave him education. And then George Osborne took on the. The Shadow Chancellor role. So I think. I think it was sort of offered.
[14:47]
James Landale
That's interesting.
[14:48]
George Eustice
Offered to him, but he indicated that he. And it wasn't. I think it wasn't because he was scared of doing. I mean, the rationale for offering it to him was he'd been a special advisor to Norman Lamont during the, erm, debacle and everything. He, you know, he knew his stuff, David, and could do it. He just.
[15:03]
Chris Mason
There's, in fact, a picture in the treasury in the foyer where visitors wait. Of Norman Lamont coming out on Black Base, all the cameras going, you've wrecked the economy, you've tanked the pound, interest rates have gone through the roof and there is a very, very young David Cameron, very young behind staring at them.
[15:18]
James Landale
He always, he always says that he didn't quite move enough out of the
[15:21]
Chris Mason
camera to avoid the historics.
[15:24]
George Eustice
Yeah.
[15:24]
Chris Mason
And also you can see why education was a good brief for him because he was, he was known for being quite wealthy, quite slick, quite privileged. And so maybe looking at education and schools, which are kind of universal for everybody, was a quite good kind of counterweight to that. And of course, his son Ivan, who lived with very life limiting conditions and had these terrible epileptic fits. That was part of the education brief as well.
[15:47]
George Eustice
Exactly. And he had a passion for special educational needs and that was sort of forward through personal experience. It was a brief that he, that he wanted to do and I think he saw it as a better, a better position from which to, to make the case. He wanted to, for the Conservative Party to change rather than just, as I said, arguing about money and budgets.
[16:05]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
[16:06]
George Eustice
Which reinforces that slightly old stereotype.
[16:08]
Chris Mason
And then where do we get to in the, in the leadership contest after that shadow, Shadow cabinet reshuffle? Because it's still not started yet.
[16:14]
James Landale
Well, yeah, no, I mean, the key thing to understand about this is that this, this leadership contest went on forever. You know, if you think Michael Howard announces that he, that he intends to stand down, he makes that announcement after the election in May and we don't get the full result until, you know.
[16:30]
George Eustice
December.
[16:31]
James Landale
December, right.
[16:32]
Chris Mason
Really long.
[16:32]
James Landale
So we just. This is a long, long process. So there's a lot of my memories of a lot of shadow boxing and lots of rather extraordinary characters coming out of the woodwork, sort of hinting to their, their favorite lobby correspondents about that they may, you know, they might be encouraged to put their name forward. You know, if enough people kind of. So there's quite a lot of that and some weird and wonderful names sort of keep sort of emerging and then sort of, you know, fading. So there's that sort of period and then it sort of builds up to, to a place where, you know, decisions actually have to be made in terms of, you know, the timetable that had been set out and it begins to sort of, you know, get a little bit more shape and you get a sense of precisely who are going to be the candidates going forward.
[17:14]
Chris Mason
And who were some of the people that were kind of teasing?
[17:17]
James Landale
Oh, well, the, the, the unusuals.
[17:19]
Chris Mason
Well, I mean, there were some usuals and some unusuals.
[17:22]
James Landale
Okay.
[17:22]
Chris Mason
The maybe wouldn't recognize the name.
[17:24]
James Landale
Should we do we do the unusuals first?
[17:26]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And maybe we need to do little pen portraits of who these people were.
[17:30]
James Landale
Alan Duncan.
[17:31]
Chris Mason
Yes. Who then went on to write a very, very, very waspish book.
[17:37]
James Landale
He went on to be a, you know, a Foreign Office minister. Tim Yo, I think, was briefly a. A sort of potential. I remember Oliver Letwin was very keen to support a leadership bid by Andrew Lansley at one point, I think.
[17:57]
George Eustice
Malcolm Rifkin.
[17:58]
Chris Mason
Wow. Everyone was having a good.
[17:59]
James Landale
Oh, yeah.
[17:59]
Chris Mason
Which is what happens if you have a very long contest.
[18:02]
George Eustice
Malcolm Rifkind, I think, came out quite early to say, I'm going to stand.
[18:06]
Chris Mason
So he'd been Defense Secretary under Thatcher.
[18:08]
George Eustice
Yes. And he. And he. And he came out and the feeling was that it was too early because this was going to be a marathon rather than a sprint. And he came out and declared early. But for us, there was a view by the time we got into June. So David Cameron, from about the second week of June, was working on a big speech that he was going to do to Policy Exchange at the end of that month, the think tank. That's when I was approached to join his campaign. And it was actually Rachel Whetstone that had sort of set that up. She had said to David, look, you should. George, I know would help you. You should.
[18:40]
Chris Mason
And was Rachel Whetstone, Michael Howard's chief of staff?
[18:43]
George Eustice
Yes.
[18:43]
Chris Mason
Rachel Whetstone, Tory fixer and brain.
[18:45]
George Eustice
Exactly. So she still had to stay out of the Conservative leadership campaign, but she was quite close to David Cameron and she suggested to him, look, you should just take on George. You've got somebody there who knows the lobby. He'll. He'll do it for you. Just, you should do that. But by that stage, Oliver Letwin was already very embedded in that Cameron, you know, putative campaign, and he was already helping to draft that first speech to Policy Exchange. And in fact, I knew David Cameron because he had been in my first role in politics. I'd been in the anti Euro campaign, the no campaign, and David Cameron and George Osborne had actually been on. On an advisory board that we had. So I. I knew them, but I knew Oliver Letwin much better. And for me, the fact that Oliver had decided to put his weight behind David Cameron meant that this was gonna be a serious attempt at building an
[19:34]
Chris Mason
alternative, a vote of confidence.
[19:36]
George Eustice
And I felt that we did need an alternative to David Davis. I liked David Davis and funnily enough, when I became an mp, my relationship with him was much better. But if you're an advisor to Michael Howard, David Davis looked at you in a particular way with suspicion, and he could be quite hard work. You know, I can remember conversations when the Today program would say, we would like David Davis at 750 to talk about a particular issue. I would ring him to try and fix it up and he would say, go back and tell them 8, 10 or nothing. He wanted the prime, he wanted the prime slot. I said, Look, 750 is a good slot. This is when they want you, this is, you know. But we would go back and of course they would say, fine, we'll get, we'll get the Lib Dems instead. So it used to fail. And once or twice I actually had to ask Michael Howard to kind of order David Davis to do his bit for the media, which didn't go down very well. So I had a prickly relationship with David Davis towards the end of that general election campaign in 2005, concluded that we actually needed something different. And I thought David Cameron had good judgment and a good temperament to do what's a very difficult role.
[20:48]
Chris Mason
Was there a particular moment with David Cameron where you thought, oh, yeah, he's. He's the one, he's got it. Or was it a sort of collection of things?
[20:55]
George Eustice
Yeah, it was. When I became his press secretary, he was joy to work with as a. As a press secretary, to be honest, just because he, he had a natural, natural ability to spot traps well in advance. So if there was some emerging news and we hadn't had time to brief him on it because it was breaking news, you knew that if he was asked the question, he wasn't gonna. To mess it up. He had a natural ability to know how to lean into something, how to step back when to be circumspect. It just came very naturally to him. So he was actually a very easy politician to be a press secretary for, because he had been a special advisor in a previous life as well. He just knew how relentless and demanding and difficult it was to get things right. And so if things did go wrong and you ended up with a big A bad story, he was, he was quite, you know, quite forgiving of things going wrong because he knew that things do go wrong in politics.
[21:52]
Chris Mason
And also one of his jobs in the private sector had been doing comms for a TV company, wasn't it? So that's right. Professional as well.
[21:59]
George Eustice
Exactly.
[22:00]
James Landale
The thing that I remember from that era was when I was doing that job as the news channel guy at party conferences, at the End of every day we'd always have a sort of back half hour of the program of the, the channel where we'd do an up some of the day's events, you, a few clips and then there'd always be an interview with a front bench each day. And I remember doing one with David Cameron sort of, you know, in the probably 2004, 2003. And what was really interesting about it, I was a recent refugee from newspapers, I'd just left the time, so I was not by any means a professional broadcaster at all.
[22:38]
Chris Mason
And the broadcasting legend you are.
[22:39]
James Landale
Well, certainly not that. And we were doing the interview and what, what struck me afterwards was that after the interview, Cameron who, you know, I'd known Cameron for, for a while but he asked me, you know, how did that go from your point of view? What were my, what my answers like? Were my answers too long, were they too short?
[23:01]
Chris Mason
Wow.
[23:02]
James Landale
How was I sitting? Was I sitting in the right, my posture right? Should I been leaning forward? Should I be leaning back more? You know, what was the content, you know, what you were looking for? Kind of. And the point I took from that was that, you know, I've, I've, you know, I've known, you know, David Cameron types all my life and you know, there's a certain, you know, sense of natural self confidence. But actually what I learned, if you've
[23:27]
Chris Mason
gone to a certain school, if you've
[23:28]
James Landale
gone to a certain school, but what I, what I, what I learned from that was that he was willing to learn and unashamed about asking very basic questions about how should I do this, right, to be better at my job
[23:43]
Chris Mason
as opposed to assuming he was right.
[23:45]
James Landale
No, but the point is, is that I, I, you know, I, I take this as a general rule in many people in life that if people are still willing to learn and show they're willing to learn, you know, that tends to be a, a good sign rather than a bad sign. People who think they know everything and, and have nothing else to gain, they tend to make mistakes, I think. And that's just something I took for, as a sort of a long standing student of politicians. That's something that I haven't early remember
[24:16]
Chris Mason
David Cameron and it's interesting because I then went to work on the Daily Politics after being on Newsround and there was a famous clip in the Daily Politics archive of David Cameron when he was Shadow Education Secretary doing what we called a big board where he stood next to the big video wall presenting a new Tory policy on education. I can't Remember exactly what the policy. But a, the fact he did it because that's quite a time consuming thing to do and is way more than just sitting and doing an interview, being grilled by Andrew Neil, although maybe easier than that actually ultimately. But he was a very natural performer. And so it's that combination of things that is encapsulated in that big board. Sounds like talking about Sesame street big board, not Big Bird. Kind of sums up his, his, his ability, I think.
[24:58]
George Eustice
Well, one of the things we learned as well during those first couple of months and then became, you know, very crucial and the, the big speech that sort of cemented his leadership was he was actually better at speaking from the heart, slightly off the cuff without a script because he, he got eye contact with his audience. He could, he could sense that he was being listened to. He could read an audience very well and adjust, adjust things. Whereas if you put him in front of a lectern with a script, it was always a little bit, it felt a little bit wooden and then he was conscious it was wooden. So sometimes it was even more wooden. Well, almost, or sometimes almost a little bit too hammy because he was trying to overcome the woodenness that he could sense. And actually paradoxically, the right thing to do was just to take the script off him and say memorize it or have a, a few notes and just get out there and speak off the cuff. And if there's a few little wobbles, that doesn't matter because the overall impact, your ability to just naturally connect with people is what, is what matters. And that's why we, we later developed this concept of the sort of the Cameron direct format. This is after he was leader where he would go around and meet members of the public and just field questions and take whatever came. And we found that, you know, that he just was very self conscious. If you made him read a script right and, and often would not get it right. Whereas speaking from the heart, it nearly always worked.
[26:26]
Chris Mason
One of his trademarks which people laugh about and when you see montages of it is walking off at the end of an interview so that you can't be asked any more questions. Which one of you taught him that or was that just came naturally to him. He's like, I'm out of here.
[26:40]
George Eustice
I think, I think that came naturally to him. David Cameron had what I, what I used to call, you know, the power walk.
[26:46]
James Landale
David Cameron also has a, you know, like, like anybody has a. Can be frustrated with media questions and, and occasionally the patient lack of patience can come to the fore. And having sat as a journalist in many edit suites trying to cut David Cameron clips into television news broadcasts, it's really annoying if, if the, the, the principal. The person giving the interview just rushes straight out of the clip because sometimes you can't avoid having to have a few seconds. Yeah.
[27:15]
Chris Mason
Of them.
[27:17]
James Landale
Gordon Brown used to do it quite a lot and it, it's always negative because it makes the politician appear irritable and peevish.
[27:27]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
[27:27]
James Landale
Which is. Which is a very unattractive characteristic in a politician. And yet of, you know, we, we journalists kind of, you know, feel that by persistently, you know, being told by people like George, you've got three questions, and then we actually always ask the fourth. Yeah, but actually, I mean, the one politician I always remember this is slight diversion is Jack Straw. You know, the former Labor Foreign Secretary and, and Home Secretary would end every. You know, he would arrive at every interview and he'd shake everybody's hand and say hello and ask their names and he'd finish the interview and ask everybody how it went into. Like the latter. It went a lot like that. And the amount of political capital that gave him as a politician in the broadcast media, when he went through political difficulties, as politicians do, was huge. So there are different ways of doing it.
[28:17]
Chris Mason
And George, you kind of alluded to it that David Cameron seemed very affable on camera, and I'm sure he was very affable in real life as well, but maybe a bit. A bit of a tougher cookie off camera than he was on camera.
[28:29]
George Eustice
Yeah, he could be. Well, there were a couple of things. So one is generally he had a natural charm and if he was in a meeting with people, you could be in the back of a car with him with some crisis going on and somebody was threatening to resign or something, and he was having to have a difficult conversation. Conversation, Step out the car, go to meet some activists at a sort of election campaign and would be completely at ease, completely in the moment. Remember all their names, talk to them. So he, he had a natural ability to do that to be present in the moment, but he had to. He had to sort of switch on to be right now I must be present in this moment and switch off what I was doing before.
[29:04]
Chris Mason
Right.
[29:04]
George Eustice
And we did have, during the leadership campaign, we, we kept getting incidents of, you know, I remember one where, you know, the feedback had come through the people doing the numbers, the, the whips who were helping get. Get the numbers for his campaign that, you know, he got in a lift with some of the new Members who had just been elected and ignored them. Now that wasn't conscious. He just. They were new. He probably didn't know who they were.
[29:26]
Chris Mason
Mind on other things and his mind
[29:27]
George Eustice
was on other things. He was honestly on his phone so that we. There was a lot of sort of, you know, you mustn't be, you know, reading text, looking at your phone because you're missing people and they take offense and it's a really weird thing in a leadership campaign the things that mps can feel slighted by. Yeah, you know he's been ignored or you know you've ignored him.
[29:45]
Chris Mason
So did you have to say to him?
[29:46]
George Eustice
Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of. So in the end over camera was just, you know, saying hello just in case they might, you know, be something that he should know and a wonderful ability of talking to people, you know. You know, even if, even if he thought he knew who they were but perhaps didn't. Couldn't remember who they were. Sort of, you know, what are you doing these days then? And you know, sort of.
[30:06]
James Landale
Or the famous, the famous, the late Duke of Edinburgh's famous one was what's keeping you busy these days?
[30:12]
Chris Mason
Yes, I think I've used that myself actually. If the world were like a Sleep number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort. Your coffee would never get cold, your flight would always be on time and your mattress would always respond to you and your unique sleep needs. Sleep number mattresses are designed to respond to your body and shift with your changing life, helping you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. To experience a whole new world of comfort, visit a sleep number store or go to sleepnumber.com sleep number to a
[30:52]
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[31:24]
Chris Mason
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[31:27]
George Eustice
Oh no.
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Chris Mason
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[31:52]
Podcast Advertiser
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[32:28]
Chris Mason
So that's the context of the leadership election and a look at who David Cameron was in 2005 from somebody who worked very closely with him. James and George will be back for part two where we will look at the actual contest itself and that will appear in your feeds on Sunday. Bye Bye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC from one
[32:47]
George Eustice
newscaster to another, thank you so much
[32:50]
Chris Mason
for making it to the end of this episode.
[32:52]
George Eustice
You clearly do, in the words of
[32:54]
Chris Mason
Chris Mason, ooze stamina.
[32:57]
George Eustice
Can I also gently encourage you to
[32:58]
Chris Mason
subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-3301-23948. Oh, be assured, I promise we listen to.

Summary7 min read

Old Newscast: The Rise of David Cameron (Part 1)

BBC Newscast | August 1, 2026
Host: Chris Mason
Guests: James Landale (BBC Diplomatic Correspondent, former Chief Political Correspondent), George Eustice (Former Conservative MP, ex-Cabinet Minister, Cameron’s 2005 Press Secretary)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the pivotal 2005 Conservative leadership contest, the crucial turning point that paved the way for the resurgence of the Tory party after years in the political wilderness. Host Chris Mason speaks with James Landale and George Eustice, drawing on their first-hand experiences and political insights to explore the end of the Michael Howard era, the state of the party, the backdrop of Blair’s final victory, and the early positioning of David Cameron as a transformative Conservative leader.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The 2005 General Election & Conservative Recovery

Backdrop (01:12): The Tories, reeling from a third Labour victory under Tony Blair (albeit with a reduced majority), were beginning to claw their way back from their 1997 rout, thanks partly to Michael Howard's leadership.
Brand Problem (04:46) [George Eustice]:
- Michael Howard “dragged the party…back up on its feet,” but Conservative policies had a brand issue: "When you tested conservative policies with the public, they liked them. As soon as you said these are conservative policies, they didn't like them anymore."
- The slogan "Are you thinking what we're thinking?"—a reference point for the campaign—was widely mocked and became associated with the party’s stance on immigration (05:55).

2. Immigration and the Limits of Campaign Messaging

Immigration’s Role (06:04):
- Linton Crosby, the Australian strategist, brought immigration front and center based on polling trends.
- Eustice: "Michael Howard used to protest that…he only did one speech on immigration, but it was sufficient that that meant that's all he ever really got asked for." (06:13)
- The topic came to overshadow the campaign, sometimes against Howard's intentions.

3. The End of Blair’s Era & What It Meant for the Tories

Labour Fatigue & Conservative Opportunity (03:29) [James Landale]:
- Blairism was looking “tarnished,” with Iraq looming over “uncertainty about how, you know, Labour sort of reinvent who keeps it going and... what opportunity would be presented to the Conservatives."
Election Results (07:54):
- Labour majority fell from 167 to 66; Conservatives gained about 30 seats—an improvement but short of a breakthrough.

4. Michael Howard’s Resignation and Internal Party Maneuvering

Immediate Fallout (08:56):
- Howard chose to resign after failing to win the election: "I've said that if people don't deliver, they go. And for me, delivering meant winning the election. I didn't do that..." [George Eustice]
- There was resistance from some party members who feared a quick coronation of David Davis and wanted a more reflective, open contest (09:34).
- Attempts were made to reform the party constitution to limit member power in leader selection (11:26), referencing how member-driven processes led to leaders with poor MP support, like Iain Duncan Smith.

5. The Rise of Cameron and Osborne: Shadow Cabinet Reshuffle

Key Appointments & Strategic Choices (12:29):
- The appointments of George Osborne (Shadow Chancellor at 33) and David Cameron (Shadow Education Secretary) marked the emergence of a new Conservative generation.
- Why Education? (14:07): Eustice reveals Cameron declined Shadow Chancellor, preferring Education as a platform to rebrand Conservatism beyond economic management—highlighting his priorities for societal renewal and modernizing the party image.
"David felt that education was a better way to explain the sort of brand of conservatism that he wanted to outline, the connection with a different generation..."
—George Eustice [14:07]
- Cameron’s personal connection to special educational needs, via his son Ivan, deepened his interest in the brief (15:46).

6. The Long Leadership Contest—Candidates and Intrigue

Leadership Limbo (16:13) [James Landale]:
- Howard’s drawn-out departure led to months of “shadow boxing” and would-be contenders jockeying for position.
- Candidates Mentioned (17:29):
  - Usual suspects: David Davis, Malcolm Rifkind, Alan Duncan, Tim Yeo, Andrew Lansley, among others.
- Cameron’s Early Momentum (18:08):
  - By June, David Cameron was quietly assembling his campaign team, including George Eustice (brought aboard by Rachel Whetstone, Michael Howard’s chief of staff).

7. Cameron vs Davis: Contrasting Styles and Strategies

Reluctance for Continuity (10:07):
- Party reluctance to double down on a traditional, right-wing agenda under David Davis—desiring instead a modernizer.
Eustice’s Conversion (20:48):
- Eustice saw Cameron’s judgment and temperament as fitting for “a very difficult role,” contrasting with tense experiences trying to work with Davis.

8. Cameron’s Media Savvy and Leadership Style

Media Training & Self-Awareness (22:37):
- Landale anecdote: Cameron asked in-depth questions after interviews about delivery, presence, and messaging—a sign of humility, growth mindset, and willingness to learn.
"He was willing to learn and unashamed about asking very basic questions about how should I do this, right, to be better at my job..."
—James Landale [23:00]
Natural Communication Style (24:58):
- Cameron excelled at speaking unscripted and connecting with audiences off the cuff, leading to formats like “Cameron Direct” town halls.
"He was actually better at speaking from the heart, slightly off the cuff without a script…"
—George Eustice [24:58]
The “Power Walk” (26:26):
- Cameron was known for his habit of ending interviews by walking off, which occasionally projected impatience but became a recognizable habit. It was “just came naturally to him,” Eustice explained.
Balancing Charm With Focus (28:16, 29:03):
- On camera, Cameron seemed affable and warm, but could be more business-like and even brusque off-camera, sometimes to a fault.
"You could be in the back of a car with him with some crisis going on…Step out the car, go to meet some activists…and would be completely at ease, completely in the moment."
—George Eustice [28:28]
- Eustice recounts having to coach Cameron to be friendlier to newly elected MPs, lest they feel slighted by a lack of attention (29:44).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Tories’ Reputation Problem:

"As soon as you said these are Conservative policies, they didn't like them anymore."
—George Eustice [04:46]
On Michael Howard’s Style:

“He was obviously quite associated with the Thatcher and Major governments and he couldn't really get away from that. But he knew how to run an operation…He was a tough taskmaster."
—George Eustice [04:46]
On the Brand of Conservatism Needed:

“We needed to rediscover things like family, you know, and society, role of the third sector, charity sector, all those things that David Cameron went on to talk about and to really present a sort of modern twist on conservatism.”
—George Eustice [10:07]
On David Cameron’s Learning Mindset:

“If people are still willing to learn and show they’re willing to learn, you know, that tends to be a good sign rather than a bad sign.”
—James Landale [23:42]
On Cameron's Communication Skills:

“He was actually better at speaking from the heart, slightly off the cuff without a script…”
—George Eustice [24:58]

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|------------| | 01:12 | Introduction: 2005 General Election, Blair’s third win, Conservative context | | 03:29 | Election analysis: Blair fatigue, Iraq’s shadow, Tory opportunity | | 04:46 | Conservative "brand problem" and campaign strategy | | 05:55 | "Are you thinking what we're thinking?" and immigration in the campaign | | 07:54 | Election result breakdown and Blair quote | | 08:56 | Michael Howard resigns, immediate aftermath | | 10:05 | Party reluctance to back David Davis, early Cameron maneuvering | | 11:26 | Internal debate on party constitution and leader selection | | 12:29 | Shadow Cabinet reshuffle: Osborne, Cameron, and what their appointments meant | | 14:07 | Why Cameron chose Shadow Education, not the economy | | 16:13 | Length of the leadership contest, shadow boxing among candidates | | 18:08 | Early makeup of Cameron’s campaign team | | 20:48 | Eustice on Cameron’s temperament and media handling versus Davis | | 22:37 | Landale’s anecdote: Cameron’s willingness to seek feedback | | 24:58 | Cameron’s no-notes speaking style and the “Cameron Direct” innovation | | 26:26 | On the “Cameron power walk” at the end of interviews | | 28:16 | Cameron’s dual on/off-camera persona | | 29:44 | Coaching Cameron to be more approachable to new MPs |

Episode Flow & Tone

The podcast maintains the BBC’s mix of sharp analysis and conversational storytelling, blending first-hand recollections, behind-the-scenes detail, and gentle humor. Chris Mason guides with curiosity, inviting both nostalgia and close inspection of political strategy and personality clashes that shaped the Tories’ rebirth.

Conclusion & What’s Next

The episode closes with a cliffhanger: having unpacked the context and early leadership moves, Part 2 will drill into the leadership contest proper and how Cameron seized the crown.

“So that’s the context of the leadership election and a look at who David Cameron was in 2005 from somebody who worked very closely with him. James and George will be back for part two…”
—Chris Mason [32:27]

For listeners or readers who missed the episode, this conversation offers rare insight into how political branding, internal party battles, and one man’s skills and choices conspired to launch the Cameron era—a transformation with ramifications well beyond the party, right into the heart of British politics.

Loading summary

Transcript136 lines

[00:00]
George Eustice
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
[00:06]
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[01:12]
Chris Mason
On this episode of Old Newscast we're going to be looking back at the 2005 Conservative leadership election. The contest which would we know now set the scene for the Tories to return to government after a decade out of power than a decade. The contest came off the back of the general election in the same year where Tony Blair secured his third election win, albeit with a greatly reduced majority, with questions over the Iraq war lingering. The Tory leader Michael Howard had improved the Conservatives result based on the last election, but despite calls to stay, he announced he would stand down shortly after polling day. So who would emerge to lead the conservatives into the 2010 election and possibly beyond? That is what we will be discussing on this episode of Old Newscast Newscast Newscast from the BBC.
[02:01]
Podcast Advertiser
Having a young, vigorous, energetic leader, I
[02:03]
George Eustice
think I have a very clear idea of what the British people now expect from this government for a third term. I've said that if people don't deliver, they go. Various Tories did at one stage say,
[02:14]
Chris Mason
yeah, I smoked the odd split.
[02:16]
Podcast Advertiser
Come to think of it, it's not
[02:17]
James Landale
such a bad idea.
[02:18]
Chris Mason
Well, James Landale is here. James, you are a diplomatic correspondent now, but in 2005 you were I was
[02:24]
James Landale
the chief political correspondent for BBC News, which basically meant that I was on the in those days, I think it was called the the news 24, the 24 hour domestic news channel.
[02:35]
Chris Mason
Some people still call it that.
[02:36]
James Landale
And we. Yes we do. I think now we officially the news channel. And that meant that I was basically in front of a camera or a microphone pretty much 247 regurgitating and telling
[02:47]
Chris Mason
the story of British Politics and receiving calls from the man sitting next to you, George Eustace. Hello, George.
[02:52]
George Eustice
Hello.
[02:52]
Chris Mason
We got to know you as a Tory MP and a Cabinet minister. Lots of, lots of different departments. But in 2005 you were.
[03:00]
George Eustice
Well, in 2005, I ran the Conservative press office during that general election, so worked very closely with Michael Howard's team. And then shortly after that election, I became, you know, David Cameron's press secretary during that, that very eventful leadership campaign.
[03:15]
Chris Mason
So the big thing that happened in 2005 was the general election and that was turned out to be Tony Blair's last general election. James, what do you remember from, from that campaign and what did of mean for the country?
[03:29]
James Landale
I think it was certainly, it, it was certainly a campaign that had more questions about it. 2001, you know, everybody knew what was going to happen. It was quite a boring election. So. But this one was, the context was different. You know, Blairism was looking tarnished old with bit whiskery. The, the, the legacy of Iraq hung pretty heavily over that election. So there was a certain degree of uncertainty about how, you know, labor sort of reinvent who keeps it going and, and therefore, you know, what opportunity would be presented to the Conservatives at that time. So there was a degree of uncertainty. We knew that Blair's time was coming to an end at some point in the future. We didn't know precisely when, but that, that, that sense of teleology, the end point, you know, was arriving and, you know, would, you know, would Gordon Brown be the future? So that was the context of the election. And then the question, of course was, you know, what, what the Tories would, would gain from it or not.
[04:29]
Chris Mason
And George, I'm just thinking back to the episode we did about 1997 and the euphoria around New labor and Blair arriving in Downing street and all these dire warnings that the Conservatives were done for maybe two generations, not just one. But actually by 2005, that wasn't looking quite so true, was it?
[04:47]
George Eustice
Yeah, Michael Howard, to his credit, you know, he was a professional operator, certainly, you know, he was obviously quite associated with the, the Thatcher and major governments and he couldn't really get away from that. But he knew, he knew how to run an operation. He was a tough taskmaster. I remember him, you know, occasionally ringing me at midnight saying, what are we doing about the BBC midnight news headlines and so on. But, you know, he, he definitely dragged the party, you know, back up on its feet. And although the election didn't work out for us, you know, he won a modest Number of additional seats, I think about 30 extra seats. He certainly put up a pretty good fight and you know it. What we found in that election is why the slogan that was used. Are you thinking what we', thinking, which is often mocked by people, that the rationale behind that was when you tested conservative policies with the public, they liked them. As soon as you said these are conservative policies, they didn't like them anymore. So there was still a very serious sort of brand issue with the Conservatives that people were struggling to overcome. And in fact, they didn't overcome that in the 2005 election. They liked what we were saying. They weren't ready to forgive us for the sort of major years yet.
[05:56]
Chris Mason
And the are you thinking what we're thinking? Thing was quite associated with immigration, wasn't it? Michael Howard was starting to inject immigration, international conversation.
[06:05]
George Eustice
He was. I mean, I, I think it's probably more fair to say that Linton Crosby injected immigration into it because it was coming up in the polling.
[06:12]
Chris Mason
The Australian guru.
[06:13]
George Eustice
Yes, Michael Howard used to protest that actually during that election campaign, I think he only did one speech on immigration, but it was sufficient that that meant that's all he ever really got asked for. So he used to be very frustrated as he, as he did interviews. People would go on, why are you saying this about immigration?
[06:28]
Chris Mason
But it was actually a much wider thing.
[06:30]
George Eustice
He wanted to have a wider agenda, but he felt that immigration was an important point. It was one of his five points, but it was only one of the five. But it, in the end, it started to overshadow and dominate things in a way that he wasn't that happy with. But once you set these things alight, it's very hard sometimes to control them.
[06:46]
James Landale
George is absolutely right. But what it showed, what that election revealed, was that just by having a good operator, you know, a good, a good leader on basic levels, which Michael Howard was in terms of running an organization that actually the, the tone and the age and the presentation and the feel factor of that leadership had an impact too. And Michael Howard as a politician was, you know, was, he was very legalistic. And this is something that had followed him throughout his career. And so he was always quite able to dive into the detail and the weeds of a policy and get into a very sort of legalistic argument rather than a broad brush political argument. And I think that's the lesson that the Conservatives took from that election was that actually we need, we need to change. You know, it's not good enough just to say that Labor's running out of Steam. There needs to be a sense of change. And I think that that idea was impressed upon the Tory party and its membership and its MPs during that electoral process.
[07:52]
Chris Mason
And here is what happened in that election.
[07:54]
George Eustice
1997, 2001 and now 2005. Tony Blair is back at number 10, but his majority is slashed by nearly 100 seats.
[08:06]
Chris Mason
And so the result of the 2005 election is that the Labour majority falls from 167 to 66. Their share of the popular vote is 35.2%, which actually seems quite good now. It was very, very low then.
[08:18]
George Eustice
We used to say it was one of the lowest ever.
[08:20]
Chris Mason
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And Tony Blair is saying things like this.
[08:24]
George Eustice
And I think I have a very
[08:25]
Podcast Advertiser
clear idea of what the British people
[08:26]
George Eustice
now expect from this government for a third term.
[08:33]
Podcast Advertiser
And I want to say to them
[08:34]
George Eustice
very directly
[08:38]
Chris Mason
that I, we, the government
[08:40]
George Eustice
are going to focus relentlessly now
[08:45]
Podcast Advertiser
on the priorities the people have set for us.
[08:47]
Chris Mason
The result for the conservatives in 2005 is better than recent history would have suggested. The. But below what Michael Howard would have wanted to achieve. So he stands down.
[08:56]
George Eustice
I've said that if people don't deliver, they go. And for me, delivering meant winning the election. I didn't do that. I didn't do that despite my best efforts and I want to do now what is best for my party and above all for my country. He wanted to stand down immediately, so to say. So it's a very. It's very hard to understand unless you're in a campaign. It's a bit like being in the trenches and you really bond with people during that sort of two months. But I think Michael Howard felt at the end that he was. That he was exhausted, that actually he wasn't going to carry on and so he should go sooner rather than later. But there were a lot of people that wanted him to stay on for an interim period. And it was principally because in many wings of the party there was a concern that you would just go from Michael Howard to a straightforward coronation of David Davis, who was seen as the. The front runner at that time. And there are a lot of people in the party who didn't want that outcome and they wanted us to at least have time as a party to reflect and to consider things properly. So I remember now why did they
[10:06]
Chris Mason
not like David Davis?
[10:08]
George Eustice
There was a lot of people thought David Davis would sort of double down on that traditional sort of right wing agenda and that actually to reconnect with the. We needed a slightly different brand of conservatism. We needed to rediscover things like family, you know, and society, role of the third sector, charity sector, all those things that David Cameron went on to talk about and to really present a sort of modern twist on conservatism. And so. And David Cameron, by this stage already decided that he was likely to stand. This was in. In June, but I remember after that election literally being in the cars on the way to. I think it was Putney. Michael Howard eventually announced his resignation and literally on the way there, people calling him to try and persuade him not to go there and then, but to announce he would go, but say not till after the. The conference. And in the end they, they succeeded and. And he was persuaded to say that he would go, but not just yet. And the other idea was that during that interim period, he would try and change the party constitution so that it wouldn't be members deciding the. The candidate. In the end, there was a feeling among some that the changes that William Hagg had brought in, where members decided who the leader should be, were actually
[11:26]
Chris Mason
quite counterproductive because it led to Ian Duncan Smith.
[11:29]
George Eustice
It led to Ian Duncan Smith, yes. And you could end up with situations where you had party leaders that just didn't have the confidence of their mps, and that was very damaging. So Michael Howe did make an attempt to try and reform the party constitution. So there was some engagement with associations and branches, but where MPs ultimately made the decision, now that was that. That failed in the end, there was pushback from the voluntary side of the party and so that rule change never happened.
[11:55]
Chris Mason
And James, I have a very vivid memory of working on Newsround at the time. So that was at 5:25 and then watching the 6 o' clock news that night. And maybe it was you, I think, or actually was it Vicki Young doing a piece about the Conservative Shadow Cabinet reshuffle. And it was quite high up on the news running order and I was quite confused why this was such a big. And then I watched the piece and it was all about the rise and the appointment of these two guys, George Osborne as Shadow Chancellor and David Cameron as Shadow Education Secretary. Why was that such an important piece of television news that night?
[12:29]
James Landale
You've got to remember that George Osborne and David Cameron were very close to Michael Howard. They had been, you know, part of the leadership team, you know, the group advising him on Prime Minister's questions and all that sort of stuff. And as George so eloquently says, one of the reasons for Michael Howard delaying his departure, culture, was to allow the sort of, you know, the youth of the party to sort of find their feet and at least be part of a debate, if not, you know, get into a place where they could at least challenge David Davis and some of the other contenders. And so therefore, the appointments of those jobs were crucial. And what was really interesting was that George Osborne got the big job, which was Shadow Chancellor, at the age of 33. At the age of 33, count, you know, to challenging Gordon Brandon. That is a huge job. And. And so to that extent, you'd think, okay, you know, Osborne's won that particular sort of leadership. Sort of. That's really good. You know, he's in a. Actually, Cameron always says afterwards, because he got shadow education, that actually that was far better for him because it was less onerous. He didn't have to face this great colossus called Gordon Brown and have to get on top of all the economic numbers and all the rest of it, as George did. Whereas David Cameron could focus on education much closer to the sort of messaging that he wanted to get into as part of his leadership campaign. I think David Cameron says that, you know, when he heard that Georgia got Shadow Chancellor, he sort of punched the air thinking, fantastic, that's really good.
[13:57]
Chris Mason
But what it meant, because he dodged
[13:58]
James Landale
the bullet, it was actually a little
[14:00]
George Eustice
bit different than that. My recollection is that Michael Howard offered Shadow Chancellor to David Cameron.
[14:06]
Chris Mason
Right.
[14:08]
George Eustice
And David Cameron said he would rather have education, because David felt that education was a better way to explain the sort of brand of conservatism that he wanted to outline the connection with different generation and other elements of conservatism, rather than just arguing over money. And in a very catchy way, Michael Howard took a very sort of. A bit of a dim view of that, I think, and sort of thought, well, how can you lead the party if you don't want to take on the top job of Chancellor? But nevertheless, respected. Respected that wish and gave him education. And then George Osborne took on the. The Shadow Chancellor role. So I think. I think it was sort of offered.
[14:47]
James Landale
That's interesting.
[14:48]
George Eustice
Offered to him, but he indicated that he. And it wasn't. I think it wasn't because he was scared of doing. I mean, the rationale for offering it to him was he'd been a special advisor to Norman Lamont during the, erm, debacle and everything. He, you know, he knew his stuff, David, and could do it. He just.
[15:03]
Chris Mason
There's, in fact, a picture in the treasury in the foyer where visitors wait. Of Norman Lamont coming out on Black Base, all the cameras going, you've wrecked the economy, you've tanked the pound, interest rates have gone through the roof and there is a very, very young David Cameron, very young behind staring at them.
[15:18]
James Landale
He always, he always says that he didn't quite move enough out of the
[15:21]
Chris Mason
camera to avoid the historics.
[15:24]
George Eustice
Yeah.
[15:24]
Chris Mason
And also you can see why education was a good brief for him because he was, he was known for being quite wealthy, quite slick, quite privileged. And so maybe looking at education and schools, which are kind of universal for everybody, was a quite good kind of counterweight to that. And of course, his son Ivan, who lived with very life limiting conditions and had these terrible epileptic fits. That was part of the education brief as well.
[15:47]
George Eustice
Exactly. And he had a passion for special educational needs and that was sort of forward through personal experience. It was a brief that he, that he wanted to do and I think he saw it as a better, a better position from which to, to make the case. He wanted to, for the Conservative Party to change rather than just, as I said, arguing about money and budgets.
[16:05]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
[16:06]
George Eustice
Which reinforces that slightly old stereotype.
[16:08]
Chris Mason
And then where do we get to in the, in the leadership contest after that shadow, Shadow cabinet reshuffle? Because it's still not started yet.
[16:14]
James Landale
Well, yeah, no, I mean, the key thing to understand about this is that this, this leadership contest went on forever. You know, if you think Michael Howard announces that he, that he intends to stand down, he makes that announcement after the election in May and we don't get the full result until, you know.
[16:30]
George Eustice
December.
[16:31]
James Landale
December, right.
[16:32]
Chris Mason
Really long.
[16:32]
James Landale
So we just. This is a long, long process. So there's a lot of my memories of a lot of shadow boxing and lots of rather extraordinary characters coming out of the woodwork, sort of hinting to their, their favorite lobby correspondents about that they may, you know, they might be encouraged to put their name forward. You know, if enough people kind of. So there's quite a lot of that and some weird and wonderful names sort of keep sort of emerging and then sort of, you know, fading. So there's that sort of period and then it sort of builds up to, to a place where, you know, decisions actually have to be made in terms of, you know, the timetable that had been set out and it begins to sort of, you know, get a little bit more shape and you get a sense of precisely who are going to be the candidates going forward.
[17:14]
Chris Mason
And who were some of the people that were kind of teasing?
[17:17]
James Landale
Oh, well, the, the, the unusuals.
[17:19]
Chris Mason
Well, I mean, there were some usuals and some unusuals.
[17:22]
James Landale
Okay.
[17:22]
Chris Mason
The maybe wouldn't recognize the name.
[17:24]
James Landale
Should we do we do the unusuals first?
[17:26]
Chris Mason
Yeah. And maybe we need to do little pen portraits of who these people were.
[17:30]
James Landale
Alan Duncan.
[17:31]
Chris Mason
Yes. Who then went on to write a very, very, very waspish book.
[17:37]
James Landale
He went on to be a, you know, a Foreign Office minister. Tim Yo, I think, was briefly a. A sort of potential. I remember Oliver Letwin was very keen to support a leadership bid by Andrew Lansley at one point, I think.
[17:57]
George Eustice
Malcolm Rifkin.
[17:58]
Chris Mason
Wow. Everyone was having a good.
[17:59]
James Landale
Oh, yeah.
[17:59]
Chris Mason
Which is what happens if you have a very long contest.
[18:02]
George Eustice
Malcolm Rifkind, I think, came out quite early to say, I'm going to stand.
[18:06]
Chris Mason
So he'd been Defense Secretary under Thatcher.
[18:08]
George Eustice
Yes. And he. And he. And he came out and the feeling was that it was too early because this was going to be a marathon rather than a sprint. And he came out and declared early. But for us, there was a view by the time we got into June. So David Cameron, from about the second week of June, was working on a big speech that he was going to do to Policy Exchange at the end of that month, the think tank. That's when I was approached to join his campaign. And it was actually Rachel Whetstone that had sort of set that up. She had said to David, look, you should. George, I know would help you. You should.
[18:40]
Chris Mason
And was Rachel Whetstone, Michael Howard's chief of staff?
[18:43]
George Eustice
Yes.
[18:43]
Chris Mason
Rachel Whetstone, Tory fixer and brain.
[18:45]
George Eustice
Exactly. So she still had to stay out of the Conservative leadership campaign, but she was quite close to David Cameron and she suggested to him, look, you should just take on George. You've got somebody there who knows the lobby. He'll. He'll do it for you. Just, you should do that. But by that stage, Oliver Letwin was already very embedded in that Cameron, you know, putative campaign, and he was already helping to draft that first speech to Policy Exchange. And in fact, I knew David Cameron because he had been in my first role in politics. I'd been in the anti Euro campaign, the no campaign, and David Cameron and George Osborne had actually been on. On an advisory board that we had. So I. I knew them, but I knew Oliver Letwin much better. And for me, the fact that Oliver had decided to put his weight behind David Cameron meant that this was gonna be a serious attempt at building an
[19:34]
Chris Mason
alternative, a vote of confidence.
[19:36]
George Eustice
And I felt that we did need an alternative to David Davis. I liked David Davis and funnily enough, when I became an mp, my relationship with him was much better. But if you're an advisor to Michael Howard, David Davis looked at you in a particular way with suspicion, and he could be quite hard work. You know, I can remember conversations when the Today program would say, we would like David Davis at 750 to talk about a particular issue. I would ring him to try and fix it up and he would say, go back and tell them 8, 10 or nothing. He wanted the prime, he wanted the prime slot. I said, Look, 750 is a good slot. This is when they want you, this is, you know. But we would go back and of course they would say, fine, we'll get, we'll get the Lib Dems instead. So it used to fail. And once or twice I actually had to ask Michael Howard to kind of order David Davis to do his bit for the media, which didn't go down very well. So I had a prickly relationship with David Davis towards the end of that general election campaign in 2005, concluded that we actually needed something different. And I thought David Cameron had good judgment and a good temperament to do what's a very difficult role.
[20:48]
Chris Mason
Was there a particular moment with David Cameron where you thought, oh, yeah, he's. He's the one, he's got it. Or was it a sort of collection of things?
[20:55]
George Eustice
Yeah, it was. When I became his press secretary, he was joy to work with as a. As a press secretary, to be honest, just because he, he had a natural, natural ability to spot traps well in advance. So if there was some emerging news and we hadn't had time to brief him on it because it was breaking news, you knew that if he was asked the question, he wasn't gonna. To mess it up. He had a natural ability to know how to lean into something, how to step back when to be circumspect. It just came very naturally to him. So he was actually a very easy politician to be a press secretary for, because he had been a special advisor in a previous life as well. He just knew how relentless and demanding and difficult it was to get things right. And so if things did go wrong and you ended up with a big A bad story, he was, he was quite, you know, quite forgiving of things going wrong because he knew that things do go wrong in politics.
[21:52]
Chris Mason
And also one of his jobs in the private sector had been doing comms for a TV company, wasn't it? So that's right. Professional as well.
[21:59]
George Eustice
Exactly.
[22:00]
James Landale
The thing that I remember from that era was when I was doing that job as the news channel guy at party conferences, at the End of every day we'd always have a sort of back half hour of the program of the, the channel where we'd do an up some of the day's events, you, a few clips and then there'd always be an interview with a front bench each day. And I remember doing one with David Cameron sort of, you know, in the probably 2004, 2003. And what was really interesting about it, I was a recent refugee from newspapers, I'd just left the time, so I was not by any means a professional broadcaster at all.
[22:38]
Chris Mason
And the broadcasting legend you are.
[22:39]
James Landale
Well, certainly not that. And we were doing the interview and what, what struck me afterwards was that after the interview, Cameron who, you know, I'd known Cameron for, for a while but he asked me, you know, how did that go from your point of view? What were my, what my answers like? Were my answers too long, were they too short?
[23:01]
Chris Mason
Wow.
[23:02]
James Landale
How was I sitting? Was I sitting in the right, my posture right? Should I been leaning forward? Should I be leaning back more? You know, what was the content, you know, what you were looking for? Kind of. And the point I took from that was that, you know, I've, I've, you know, I've known, you know, David Cameron types all my life and you know, there's a certain, you know, sense of natural self confidence. But actually what I learned, if you've
[23:27]
Chris Mason
gone to a certain school, if you've
[23:28]
James Landale
gone to a certain school, but what I, what I, what I learned from that was that he was willing to learn and unashamed about asking very basic questions about how should I do this, right, to be better at my job
[23:43]
Chris Mason
as opposed to assuming he was right.
[23:45]
James Landale
No, but the point is, is that I, I, you know, I, I take this as a general rule in many people in life that if people are still willing to learn and show they're willing to learn, you know, that tends to be a, a good sign rather than a bad sign. People who think they know everything and, and have nothing else to gain, they tend to make mistakes, I think. And that's just something I took for, as a sort of a long standing student of politicians. That's something that I haven't early remember
[24:16]
Chris Mason
David Cameron and it's interesting because I then went to work on the Daily Politics after being on Newsround and there was a famous clip in the Daily Politics archive of David Cameron when he was Shadow Education Secretary doing what we called a big board where he stood next to the big video wall presenting a new Tory policy on education. I can't Remember exactly what the policy. But a, the fact he did it because that's quite a time consuming thing to do and is way more than just sitting and doing an interview, being grilled by Andrew Neil, although maybe easier than that actually ultimately. But he was a very natural performer. And so it's that combination of things that is encapsulated in that big board. Sounds like talking about Sesame street big board, not Big Bird. Kind of sums up his, his, his ability, I think.
[24:58]
George Eustice
Well, one of the things we learned as well during those first couple of months and then became, you know, very crucial and the, the big speech that sort of cemented his leadership was he was actually better at speaking from the heart, slightly off the cuff without a script because he, he got eye contact with his audience. He could, he could sense that he was being listened to. He could read an audience very well and adjust, adjust things. Whereas if you put him in front of a lectern with a script, it was always a little bit, it felt a little bit wooden and then he was conscious it was wooden. So sometimes it was even more wooden. Well, almost, or sometimes almost a little bit too hammy because he was trying to overcome the woodenness that he could sense. And actually paradoxically, the right thing to do was just to take the script off him and say memorize it or have a, a few notes and just get out there and speak off the cuff. And if there's a few little wobbles, that doesn't matter because the overall impact, your ability to just naturally connect with people is what, is what matters. And that's why we, we later developed this concept of the sort of the Cameron direct format. This is after he was leader where he would go around and meet members of the public and just field questions and take whatever came. And we found that, you know, that he just was very self conscious. If you made him read a script right and, and often would not get it right. Whereas speaking from the heart, it nearly always worked.
[26:26]
Chris Mason
One of his trademarks which people laugh about and when you see montages of it is walking off at the end of an interview so that you can't be asked any more questions. Which one of you taught him that or was that just came naturally to him. He's like, I'm out of here.
[26:40]
George Eustice
I think, I think that came naturally to him. David Cameron had what I, what I used to call, you know, the power walk.
[26:46]
James Landale
David Cameron also has a, you know, like, like anybody has a. Can be frustrated with media questions and, and occasionally the patient lack of patience can come to the fore. And having sat as a journalist in many edit suites trying to cut David Cameron clips into television news broadcasts, it's really annoying if, if the, the, the principal. The person giving the interview just rushes straight out of the clip because sometimes you can't avoid having to have a few seconds. Yeah.
[27:15]
Chris Mason
Of them.
[27:17]
James Landale
Gordon Brown used to do it quite a lot and it, it's always negative because it makes the politician appear irritable and peevish.
[27:27]
Chris Mason
Yeah.
[27:27]
James Landale
Which is. Which is a very unattractive characteristic in a politician. And yet of, you know, we, we journalists kind of, you know, feel that by persistently, you know, being told by people like George, you've got three questions, and then we actually always ask the fourth. Yeah, but actually, I mean, the one politician I always remember this is slight diversion is Jack Straw. You know, the former Labor Foreign Secretary and, and Home Secretary would end every. You know, he would arrive at every interview and he'd shake everybody's hand and say hello and ask their names and he'd finish the interview and ask everybody how it went into. Like the latter. It went a lot like that. And the amount of political capital that gave him as a politician in the broadcast media, when he went through political difficulties, as politicians do, was huge. So there are different ways of doing it.
[28:17]
Chris Mason
And George, you kind of alluded to it that David Cameron seemed very affable on camera, and I'm sure he was very affable in real life as well, but maybe a bit. A bit of a tougher cookie off camera than he was on camera.
[28:29]
George Eustice
Yeah, he could be. Well, there were a couple of things. So one is generally he had a natural charm and if he was in a meeting with people, you could be in the back of a car with him with some crisis going on and somebody was threatening to resign or something, and he was having to have a difficult conversation. Conversation, Step out the car, go to meet some activists at a sort of election campaign and would be completely at ease, completely in the moment. Remember all their names, talk to them. So he, he had a natural ability to do that to be present in the moment, but he had to. He had to sort of switch on to be right now I must be present in this moment and switch off what I was doing before.
[29:04]
Chris Mason
Right.
[29:04]
George Eustice
And we did have, during the leadership campaign, we, we kept getting incidents of, you know, I remember one where, you know, the feedback had come through the people doing the numbers, the, the whips who were helping get. Get the numbers for his campaign that, you know, he got in a lift with some of the new Members who had just been elected and ignored them. Now that wasn't conscious. He just. They were new. He probably didn't know who they were.
[29:26]
Chris Mason
Mind on other things and his mind
[29:27]
George Eustice
was on other things. He was honestly on his phone so that we. There was a lot of sort of, you know, you mustn't be, you know, reading text, looking at your phone because you're missing people and they take offense and it's a really weird thing in a leadership campaign the things that mps can feel slighted by. Yeah, you know he's been ignored or you know you've ignored him.
[29:45]
Chris Mason
So did you have to say to him?
[29:46]
George Eustice
Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of. So in the end over camera was just, you know, saying hello just in case they might, you know, be something that he should know and a wonderful ability of talking to people, you know. You know, even if, even if he thought he knew who they were but perhaps didn't. Couldn't remember who they were. Sort of, you know, what are you doing these days then? And you know, sort of.
[30:06]
James Landale
Or the famous, the famous, the late Duke of Edinburgh's famous one was what's keeping you busy these days?
[30:12]
Chris Mason
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George Eustice
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[32:28]
Chris Mason
So that's the context of the leadership election and a look at who David Cameron was in 2005 from somebody who worked very closely with him. James and George will be back for part two where we will look at the actual contest itself and that will appear in your feeds on Sunday. Bye Bye. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC from one
[32:47]
George Eustice
newscaster to another, thank you so much
[32:50]
Chris Mason
for making it to the end of this episode.
[32:52]
George Eustice
You clearly do, in the words of
[32:54]
Chris Mason
Chris Mason, ooze stamina.
[32:57]
George Eustice
Can I also gently encourage you to
[32:58]
Chris Mason
subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-3301-23948. Oh, be assured, I promise we listen to.

Old Newscast: The Rise Of David Cameron (Part 1)

Old Newscast: The Rise Of David Cameron (Part 1)

Old Newscast: The Rise of David Cameron (Part 1)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The 2005 General Election & Conservative Recovery

2. Immigration and the Limits of Campaign Messaging

3. The End of Blair’s Era & What It Meant for the Tories

4. Michael Howard’s Resignation and Internal Party Maneuvering

5. The Rise of Cameron and Osborne: Shadow Cabinet Reshuffle

6. The Long Leadership Contest—Candidates and Intrigue

7. Cameron vs Davis: Contrasting Styles and Strategies

8. Cameron’s Media Savvy and Leadership Style

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timeline of Important Segments

Episode Flow & Tone

Conclusion & What’s Next

Old Newscast: The Rise of David Cameron (Part 1)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The 2005 General Election & Conservative Recovery

2. Immigration and the Limits of Campaign Messaging

3. The End of Blair’s Era & What It Meant for the Tories

4. Michael Howard’s Resignation and Internal Party Maneuvering

5. The Rise of Cameron and Osborne: Shadow Cabinet Reshuffle

6. The Long Leadership Contest—Candidates and Intrigue

7. Cameron vs Davis: Contrasting Styles and Strategies

8. Cameron’s Media Savvy and Leadership Style

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timeline of Important Segments

Episode Flow & Tone

Conclusion & What’s Next