Q+A: Burnham Says He'd Save Labour, But Can He Win Makerfield?

Summary

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Newscast Episode Summary

Title: Q+A: Burnham Says He'd Save Labour, But Can He Win Makerfield?
Date: May 16, 2026
Hosts: Laura Kuenssberg, Chris Mason (with archival Adam Fleming clips)
Theme:
A fast-moving, in-depth analysis of Andy Burnham’s dramatic bid to return to Westminster and potentially seize the Labour leadership, set against broader questions of Labour’s internal divides, political strategy, the precariousness of British party politics, and the evolving landscape in a turbulent 2026.

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1. Episode Overview

The episode dives straight into the latest political drama: Andy Burnham (Greater Manchester Mayor) announces his intention to contest the Makerfield by-election, openly positioning himself not just as a would-be MP, but as Labour’s savior—and possibly the next Prime Minister. The hosts contextualize Burnham’s move, Labour’s infighting, the risk posed by Reform UK, and wider questions about whether British politics is governable in this volatile post-Brexit period.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. Andy Burnham’s “Save The Labour Party” Pitch

• Burnham’s Line: He says Labour “needs saving,” not simply “tweaking,” directly challenging Keir Starmer’s leadership and approach.

• Quote (Andy Burnham, 01:48):

  “We've got to see this as a moment to reclaim the Labour Party, to save it from where it's been. We can't just carry on as we are.”

• Hosts discuss what this rhetoric signals:

  • Huge personal ambition, staking claim not just on Starmer’s failures but on party identity itself.
  • Split reactions within Labour: Some see him as inspiring and crucial, others as opportunistic and destabilizing.

• Laura Kuenssberg (02:25):

  “The word save is a very significant political one because it's incredibly strong. ... Andy Burnham perceives this by-election to be the moment he can save [Labour].”

B. Wes Streeting’s Challenge and Bold Pro-EU Position

• Wes Streeting confirms he’ll contest the (potential) leadership and uses a Progress speech to criticize the government and Labour’s lack of vision.

• Notable Policy Point: Streeting advocates for a “new special relationship with the EU” and openly aspires for the UK to “one day back in the European Union.”

• Quote (Wes Streeting, 05:08):

  “We must remake the argument in 2026. ... We need a new, special relationship with the EU, because Britain’s future lies with Europe and one day, one day back in the European Union.”

• Hosts note: This divides the party further: EU-enthusiasts cheer, while Brexit-sensitive MPs and voters are wary.

C. The Makerfield By-Election Stakes

• The by-election is scheduled for June 18 (Anniversary of Waterloo, jokes the hosts).

• Makerfield is not a safe Labour seat; majority over Reform UK is just 5,000.

• Burnham’s Challenge: Prove electability “in the hardest possible seat.”

  • He had to accept a tough contest rather than a safe seat to prove he can defeat Reform UK, party insiders say (10:21).

• Laura Kuenssberg (10:25):

  “He has set himself this enormous challenge: beat Reform in Makerfield, show Labour he could beat [Nigel] Farage in a general election, and then he'll be carried aloft on the shoulder of Labour MPs to replace Keir Starmer—or so goes the hypothetical script.”

D. Risks, Opportunities, and Fallout

• If Burnham wins:
  • Many party insiders expect him to move immediately for party leadership, widely assumed (though not certain) he’d win and become PM.
  • There’s also debate: Should he just be “crowned,” Rishi Sunak-style, or must there be a contested election?
• If he loses:
  • He would remain mayor; practices allow him to stay until the by-election result; only on winning must he resign.
  • A new mayoral election would be triggered, with the risk Reform UK could contest and win Greater Manchester—raising major stakes for Labour’s control of local government.
  • The hosts underscore: This is not universally welcomed in the party. Some see Burnham as parachuting opportunistically, creating internal fury (07:51, 09:00).

E. The Multi-Party Era: Green Party Dynamics

• Greens face pressure over whether to stand a candidate and risk splitting the anti-Reform/anti-Tory vote. Some, like Caroline Lucas, argue Greens should not stand to help block Reform UK—so far, that isn’t happening, but they might nominally stand a “paper candidate.”
• This is showcased as proof of UK’s modern multi-party politics vs the old “stand aside” arrangements (16:34–16:53).

F. Voters’ Warnings: British History Lessons

• Archive segment recalls the 1965 Leyton by-election, where the Labour leadership foisted a candidate on the constituency, resulting in a backlash and defeat.
• Lesson: Even “local” Burnham shouldn’t take voters' loyalty for granted—British voters dislike imposition and complacency (29:18–30:56).
• Laura Kuenssberg:

  “Voters do not like being told what to do and they do not like politicians taking them for granted.”

G. Broader Themes: Is Britain Ungovernable?

• Several listener questions push for perspective: Is the UK now inherently ungovernable compared to France/USA? Why the revolving door of PMs?
• The hosts argue that recent chaos is a symptom of post-Brexit structural disruption, compounded by pandemic, international instability, and domestic mismanagement—“the wires haven’t been put back.”
• However, they push back against panic: Britain is not “ungovernable,” but is in a period of exceptional political turbulence.
• Chris Mason (25:03):

  “The record is in and it's bad. But the read across that we can't govern our country, I think, is part of the post-Brexit Britain that years from now people will say, several things happened in the UK. ... It unplugged everything.”

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Andy Burnham on his local connection (34:51):

  “I wouldn't have gone just anywhere like a carpet bagger. It matters to me that I have a connection here. I live literally on the edge of this constituency. My kids went to school a few hundred yards down the road. I know the people here, I know how they think, I know how they feel.”

• Hosts in 2021 archive (re: Burnham’s ‘King of the North’ persona):

  • (Adam, as Burnham) “You're missing the crown there.”
    (Laura) “King of the North. There we are. Self declared.” (34:11–34:18)

• On multi-party politics and the new normal

  • (Chris Mason, 16:34):

    “Welcome to multi party politics. ... This business of not running a candidate is from the old era.”

• On the sense of circus and public exhaustion

  • (Laura Kuenssberg, 20:09):

    “What are they doing? Like, this is just an absolute circus. This is everything that Labour promised they would not be.”

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4. Key Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:51–03:22| Burnham’s announcement and ‘save Labour’ message | | 03:23–05:48| Wes Streeting’s leadership bid and EU comments | | 06:21–07:58| By-election background: the NEC, dates, and Reform threat | | 09:00–10:20| Divisions in Labour over Burnham’s move | | 10:21–11:49| Makerfield’s risks, challenge from Reform UK | | 12:22–14:02| Burnham’s mayoralty, rules, and implications | | 14:16–16:54| Greens' decision; multi-party dynamics | | 16:54–18:36| What happens if Burnham wins? Leadership, consequences | | 18:42–20:09| Reform UK’s strategy, celebrity candidates | | 20:38–22:57| Public mood, policy paralysis, and constitutional speed bumps| | 23:52–26:41| Is the UK ungovernable? Post-Brexit fallout | | 29:18–30:57| 1965 history lesson: Voters rejecting imposed candidates | | 34:51–36:38| Burnham’s local identity, ‘King of the North’, public vibe |

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5. Analysis: Tone, Context, and Takeaways

• Language & Tone:

  • Lively, informal, incisive; authentic quote highlights and wry asides (e.g., “scoop on the stump”), underpinned by classic Newscast banter and historical depth.
  • Unvarnished about Labour’s internal rage and public confusion: “absolute circus,” “spitting chips.”

• Context:

  • Burnham’s campaign is a lightning rod for mass anxieties: about party identity, electoral volatility, the suitability of current leadership, and the wider state of British politics post-Brexit.
  • Both the hosts and their listeners are realistic: a change in leader or style alone won't instantly resolve deep political malaise, and recent lessons (e.g., the Leyton by-election and rapid PM turnover) urge caution against complacency, factional warfare, or assuming the voters will fall in line.

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6. Conclusion

This episode lays bare the scale of Labour’s existential challenge, with Andy Burnham’s Makerfield gamble posing as both a test of personal ambition and a crucible for Labour’s soul in a fractious, multi-party, post-Brexit Britain. While many in the party hope Burnham can “save” Labour, others warn of complacency, division, and the voters’ unpredictable mood. The by-election thus becomes a potential hinge point for a party—and a country—in flux, with the hosts providing history, context, and a healthy dose of skepticism for every scenario on offer.

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Transcript

[Chris Mason]

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[Chris Mason]

Well, we've come back.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We have come back because we recorded our normal Saturday conversation at 2 o' clock and it's now 4:13. And since we recorded, a couple of things have happened that we want to bring you before. We'll play you our longer conversation.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, because newscasters will want this news. Two big figures in the Labor Party psychodrama have spoken within about an hour of each other.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

They have. So Andy Barnum was on the stump in Makerfield near Wigan, where he's running in the by election not just to become the MP there, but he hopes to become the prime minister. And he's spoken to the BBC for the first time since he decided to run and he said some rather interesting things and we'll play you some of them. But most notably, I think he says we've got to see this as a moment to reclaim the Labor Party, to save it from where it's been. Now that's not just saying I want to be the guy because Keir Starmer has not done a very good job. He's saying the party needs saving.

[Andy Burnham]

You know, I think we got to just see this as a sort of a kind of moment to reclaim the Labor Party, to save it from where it's been. You know, we can't just carry on as we are. We're going to change the conversation in this campaign. We're going to get closer labor, closer to these communities again. And I'm kind of excited about what

[Chris Mason]

all of that means and this saving thing because one of the Corbinistas said the Labour Party was founded under Akir Hardy and could end die under Akir Starmer. The word save is a very significant

[Laura Kuenssberg]

political one because it's incredibly strong. Wrong. It's not saying, oh well, we got it a bit wrong. So we should soup Things up a bit more. We need to go, oh, someone might say further, faster, actually saying the party needs to be saved. And Andy Burnham perceives this by election to be the moment he can save. It tells us two things. It tells us one, how high he feels the stakes are. It also tells us how he sees himself in a way. And I have to say I think there'll be some of his colleagues who think that that's a very inspiring message. And actually looking at what happened last week in the elections, he's absolutely right about that. I think there will be also colleagues who hear him speaking about him being the person to come in and save it as something frankly that really does their head in. We'll see what happens during the rest of this campaign. But Andy Barnum, they're out there talking in very, very blunt terms, which is of course what why lots of voters think he's the kind of guy they'd like to choose.

[Chris Mason]

That's a BBC scoop. They got him on the stump. A scoop on the stump. And now we turn to a speech on the podium by Wes Streeting who has said I'm running.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Exactly. So Wes treating has confirmed that he will run when. If. We should still say if. When there's a Labour leadership contest. And he at a pre arranged speech at Progress, which is a sort of right of labor think tank group, he had a plan speech there in central London today and he said a whole variety of interesting things. There was a bit of his diagnosis about why government has gone badly, in his view. He said they were underprepared, they didn't know necessarily enough about what they wanted to do in government. He said also that labor hadn't had a proper debate about what it believed in for more than a decade. He said that there'd been a dishonest leadership campaign hinting that Keir Starmer had, you know, not been quite truthful about what he really wanted to do. And he said that there has to be a contest to choose the next leader who will be the next Prime Minister because the party has to have a battle of ideas. In other words, there's no point just doing a switcheroo. They've got to work out what they're for. The policy diagnosis that I think will get the most headlines is that he said one day he would like to the UK to go back into the European Union. Now there'll be people in the Labour family who go hooray, wonderful, that's what we wanted all along. And actually Andy Burnham has from time to time talked about A much friendlier relationship with the European Union. But there will also be people in the Labour Party who think, hang on a minute. We've just lost lots and lots of ground to reform UK and Brexit voting parts of the country. How on earth is part of the solution to telling people we might go back to the eu?

[Wes Streeting]

We can no longer afford to be silent about it. We must remake the argument in 2026. The British people increasingly see that in a dangerous world, we must club together both to rebuild our economy and trade and improve our defence against the shared threats from Russian aggression and the retreat of America. First, the biggest economic opportunity we have is, is on our doorstep. We need a new, special relationship with the eu, because Britain's future lies with Europe and one day, one day back in the European Union.

[Chris Mason]

Now, here's the addition in which newscasters send points, views, questions which we tackle sometimes well, sometimes badly, we hope, or sometimes well, we hope. On Saturday's newscast, Newscast, newscast from the

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

We are in the midst of a rush. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.

[Voter in 1965 Archive]

Six, seven.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.

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Daddy has has also a special quotation.

[Chris Mason]

Thinking about it like a panto helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Hello, it's Laura in the studio and

[Chris Mason]

it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And while I sometimes rudely say that you look like a geography teacher at the weekends, this weekend you're going to be a history teacher because there are two bits of history that we're going to think about at the end of our conversation today which are pertinent to the chances of 1A Burnham making his way back to number 10. There's lots of ifs, there's lots of buts, but the shadow contest is here and in the last 24 hours there's confirmation that Labour's powerful ruling body, the NEC, is not going to stand in Andy Barnum's way. So by the end of Monday, we're probably going to be full on swing by election campaign. Andy Barnum will be on the ballot versus whoever, with the biggest rival to him getting back to Parliament coming from Reform uk.

[Chris Mason]

And the by election is likely to be held on the 18th of June.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Chris Mason]

Which is the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Goodness, that's.

[Chris Mason]

I think on that. What's what the sun says, well observed. We are doing history in this. I should look at the editor. Is it the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo? He has no idea. Off the top of his head, he doesn't know. So I've said it now. So, lo and behold, this is what we call a reverse ferret. Yes, it's a 180 from the NEC, which just three months ago said, oh, you can't possibly run in a by election. Andy Burnham, you're the mayor of Greater Manchester, there's no way. Oh, no, you can't possibly run.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I'm sure that the good members of the nec, Labour's powerful ruling body, will be only too delighted to have been impersonated in that way. Sort of like, what's changed? Well, what's changed is that Keir Starmer no longer has the power to block. Block Andy Burnham from making a tilt of coming back to Westminster. So, look, you can say, oh, it was all about procedure. Oh, it was all about avoiding an expensive by election. Oh, it was all about avoiding the possibility of losing the labor or mayoralty of Greater Manchester, all of those things. But essentially, Keir Starmer blocked Andy Barnum all those months ago as a power move. After the elections last week, he doesn't have that power anymore. So the door is open for Andy Barnum to get back into Parliament. And there's no way that the NEC was never going to rub, was going to say, oh, no, he couldn't do it this time. Whether in your kind of slightly operatic way of delivering that message or not. The question then comes though, is that whether or not he's going to win it. And that is absolutely not in the bag. And before we get into our excellent questions from newscasters, I just want to let people know that while there are some people in the Labour Party who are convinced that Andy Barnum is going to be their salvation, they've had terrible problems in government. What they need is somebody who the public in the northwest of England have repeatedly shown that they love and adore, and lots of people think that Andy Barnum is a great guy. There are other people in the Labour Party who are absolutely spitting chips about this. There'd be people I've had to sort of hold my phone out to the end that they are so angry about what he has done, they are so angry about how this has all come to pass and what some of them believe is incredibly opportunistic political moves by somebody who's had his eye on getting back to number 10 for a long time and essentially using the terrible moment of the May elections as the moment. And it's interesting, there's also sort of generational thing I keep hearing. There are people who worked with Andy Barnum in government, maybe were alongside him in government, maybe just, you know, knew him back in the 2000s and 2010s, and lots of them who are not necessarily cheerleaders. And. And a thing that, you know, several people have said to me is lots of the people who think that he's the answer to our prayers. I've never even met him, or I've only ever met him for a couple of minutes. So there's that whole dynamic going on here that it is not a straightforward move for Mandy Barnum, even though, frankly, he's not made any secret of the fact that he fancied a crack at the top job anyway for months.

[Chris Mason]

There's an interesting wrinkle also. We should say he could win.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Chris Mason]

Proving that he could beat reform, which is Labour's big identity crisis.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And that's the big interesting thing. So a senior figure in the Labour movement said to me about five days ago, before this blew up, they said, we've told Andy Barnum that he has to show he can win a seat against reform. There's no point him taking a comedy safe seat because that wouldn't prove anything. He has to show that he can beat reform. And we know that Makerfield, where he's now going to stand as Dot Simons has, sits to decide. It's only a 5,000 majority for labor against reform. But I've been told by quite a few different sources Makerfield was not Andy Barnum's first choice of seat. Oh, but that is where this week Josh Simmons was persuaded or volunteered gladly. Who knows? He's on our show tomorrow to step aside. But it's interesting. It was made clear to Andy Barnum that just going for a seat where, you know, they still weigh the votes for labor and there arguably. Are there any safe seats now? Don't know. But it's quite an interesting part of this story that he has set himself this enormous challenge, beat reform in Makerfield, show the Labour Party that he could hypothetically beat Farage in a general election and then he'll be carried aloft on the shoulder of Labor MPs to replace Keir Summer. So goes the possible hypothetical script.

[Chris Mason]

Okay, so Vic in Maidstone has put her finger on the many questions swirling. Love the show, she says. If she hadn't said that, I would probably have just implied that she said that to help us help our confidence. You've been keeping me company on my morning commute for six years now. I have a question about Andy Burnham. If he succeeds in gaining the make a field seat at the by election, what happens to his mayoralty position? Would this trigger a need to elect a new mayor? Could this give rise to a reform candidate potentially trying for this position?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes and yes, if he becomes an mp, he can't be the mayor anymore. There would therefore have to be a contest for the Greater Manchester mayor, which is a powerful position with lots of money to spend. And yes, you can bet your bottom dollar that reform would chuck the kitchen sink at trying to win that position, which would give them a prominent perch in local government and in like national political life and lots of money to spend if they were able to win it. So, Vic, yes, you put your finger on something really, really important. Yes and yes is the answer to your question.

[Chris Mason]

There's an interesting wrinkle, so interesting that I felt the need to interrupt you, which is that whilst contesting the byelection, we are told he does not have to stand down.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Correct. And we've kind of tried to clarify this in the last couple of days because when he tried to run last time, the arguments being made by the Labour Party were slightly different. However, that is what we understand as things stand. So given that the by election is probably going to be on June 18, that means there is likely to be a short period of time when he is spending all his time banging on doors in Makerfield to try and win a by election, but will still technically be the mayor of Greater Manchester, which is a big important job with big important powers to be exercised.

[Chris Mason]

So in summary, actually, they can't lose both, which some people, some people were saying, because if he loses Makerfield, he's still the mayor of Greater Manchester, but

[Laura Kuenssberg]

he might go for another seat after that. I mean, look, who knows? But yes, he can stay on as mayor if he loses the by election is our current understanding in this bewildering political world.

[Chris Mason]

I think that's quite a big wrinkle on where we all thought we were a few days ago. I think it's interesting. And thank goodness to Vic for emailing, who adds, keep up the great work of keeping us informed. Lots of love. Now the Greens will put forward a candidate.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, this is interesting. So Zach Polanski basically says his reason for being is to stop reform and to bring back what he calls eco populism and eco socialism and stand up for all the things that Greens believe in. But his tagline, if you like, has been vote Green to stop reform. Now, if in the context here, his reason for being was really to stop reform, it has been suggested that what the Greens ought to do would be not to run a candidate and essentially allow Andy Barnum a clear run at the seat. That doesn't look like that's what's going to happen. But some people, like Caroline Lucas, the former deputy, the former leader of the Green Party in Westminster, she has suggested actually that that should happen and that the Greens should make way in order that reform does not have a decent chance or an easier chance of getting another mp. Remember, also, the context is that the Greens were the ones who were victorious in the Gorton by election, which is where Andy Barnum had wanted to run in the first place. So recent history suggests to the Greens, and if you, Zach Polanski, you might look at it and think, well, why shouldn't we run? Because actually, look, we won in Gordon. The Barnum factor, though, is the issue here, because what lots of pollsters will tell you, what lots of Labour Party people will tell you, is that Andy Burnham has such personal cache that the kind of normal polling situation, therefore might not apply and make a field. That's what they're banking on. Right? Because if you look at the local election results, they lost almost everywhere across that whole region. So they are banking on Andy Burnham being the factor that could defy the conventional polling and the record not just of polling, but of real votes just 10 days ago. But it would be really interesting to see how the Greens position themselves. It's possible also that they might run a candidate, but not really then campaign that hard, you know, have what we would call a sort of paper candidate, so they're technically in the contest rather than taking what would be quite a big decision to stand back from running a by election when they've got all this momentum and they've had all this sort of recent surge. But that's interesting in that. That's sort of interesting in the mix of all of this.

[Chris Mason]

Very interesting. And also it's a proof of what we've been saying for a year or two of welcome to multi party politics. If it is multi party politics. This business of not running a candidate is from the old era.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Chris Mason]

And the gains for Andy Burnham, we've been talking about the risks, but the gains, the rewards are equally stratospheric.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So if you talk to people in the labor movement, as I've been doing in the last couple of days, if Andy Burnham wins this by election, many people tell you that means he's going to be the Prime Minister. Now, I don't remember a by election like that. The reason for that is because if he wins this by election, the expectation in the Labour Party is that he would almost immediately say, I'm going to run against. I'm going to run to be Prime Minister. There's a different wrinkle about whether or not Keir Starmer would run a contest, but let's forget about that for a second, although it is. Obviously it's relevant. But the expectation is Andy Burnham, if he wins the by election, he would almost immediately run to be leader of the Labour Party. He certainly would have the support of enough MPs to run in the Labour Party. And the current consensus, not the universal opinion, but the current consensus, is that he would be the winner of a contest to become the labor leader and therefore the next prime minister. There is also a debate about whether or not there should even be a contest at all, or whether Andy Burnham should basically just be crowned not just King of the north, but king of

[Chris Mason]

number 10, which we could call doing

[Laura Kuenssberg]

a Rishi, because there wasn't a con. You know, there wasn't a contest at that point. But there are a lot of ifs in that scenario. But, yeah, I mean, theoretically, that is what could happen, and that's what a lot of people in labor think will happen if he wins. I have to say, though, in 2026, anyone who predicts the outcome of politics is, you know, and stakes their life on it is daft.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And also contest. If they get into a contest, it might not go Andy Barnum's way.

[Chris Mason]

No. Because here's another question which, I mean, sketch to newscasters questions which is better than mine, but mine is, imagine if Reform, who are picking a candidate in the next few days, pick a celebrity candidate as opposed to someone that we don't know. What do you think are the chances of that?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think Reform will be thinking incredibly carefully about trying to pick the most standout person they possibly can. This is a huge potential prize for them were they to stop labor from getting one of their most popular figures back on the pitch, to use all the tortured political metaphors that have been doing the rounds for the last 72 hours, it's a huge prize for them. Now, there have been suggestions that Maggie Oliver, who's one of the people who's campaigned for the victims of grooming gangs in the Northwest, might be somebody they would try to put forward nominations for. The Reform candidates close on Sunday. There was even a suggestion, and I'm. And I'm not putting any quarter in this at all, but somebody even made a suggestion that Nigel Farage might stand down in Clacton in order to have a go in Makerfield. So instead of waiting for a hypothetical 20, 29 general election of Nige v Andy, just have it in Makerfield and get and get on with it. These are, you know, in the realms of sort of mischievous suggestions, but it's.

[Chris Mason]

It's exactly tells you the tempo, the temperature, the, the rising fury and, and debate about the seat.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right. And you've also got to think, though, you know our inbox this week of members of the public, maybe some of them newscasters, not just asking questions but just saying, what are they doing? Like, this is just an absolute circus. This is everything that Labour promised they would not be. There are others, of course, and you know, this view is also the same in government. You know, one minister said to me, I think the public's absolutely horrified. You know, another cabinet minister said, look, I think we've got to respect what voters told us last week. So in Labour there's still real division about what's going on here.

[Chris Mason]

Grace is a newscaster who emails. Hello, all, can we all have some peace now? This was a beyond boring Westminster drama that managed to be quite worrying. At the same time, I'd like some reassurance that the government can now get on with doing its job in these very strange times we are living in.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Right. And Grace, if you fancy it, I've written a long list of all the things the government's meant to be getting on with it in my piece on the website today, because there are decisions that are meant to be done in the next couple of weeks, like, where's the money for military equipment, what they're going to do about the social media ban for kids. So things are literally on the Prime Minister's desk right now. And there's a whole thing about, you know, does Keir Summer have the power to drive through anything controversial anymore? Not really. Is he going to leave all the stuff for the person who may or may not take over his job? He's got to decide whether he would run or not. If there's a leadership contest, the front

[Chris Mason]

page of the ft, the Saturday ft, is that there's also a sort of constitutional question about how an impartial civil service must proceed.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Correct.

[Chris Mason]

And the likely outcome, say three great reporters working together on the ft, is, is that it slows down. It becomes impossible to be too primary color, like during a leadership contest, which could lead to a new Prime Minister.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think that's, I think that's absolutely the case, both technically when it comes to how the civil service will operate in the Next six weeks, two months, three months, however long it's going to be. And also, just from a small p. Political sense, if you're an official working in government, and we know this from the Conservatives time in office, if the Minister comes in and bangs the table, says, you must do this, and you think, well, they might not be there in six weeks time, then of course things are going to take longer to do or they're going to just be delayed and everything's going to slow down. So for the Prime Minister who stood up on Monday and said we have to be bolder, all of this makes that sound pretty unlikely. However, we'll get to our other history lessons in a second. Theresa may actually use the last couple of months of her premiership, when she knew she was off to do some things that she'd wanted to do and were quite radical for ages. She's got the net zero law through. She did much more on modern slavery than she's done. In a way, she was liberated in, in her last period in office to do things that she otherwise might not have done.

[Chris Mason]

Good point. I mean, I, I just think that this question of how many Prime Ministers Britain. Britain's getting through is a real doorstep question. I, I like a doorstep question. Do British people think we need a new Prime Minister every week?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And I don't think people do.

[Chris Mason]

No, I don't.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But there are also a lot of people who don't want Keir Starmer to be the Prime Minister anymore. So. And you know, guess what? Not every. I mean, I know, because you've spoken to every single person in the country, not everybody thinks the same thing, but, you know, do, do people want instability and a spinning revolving door like you get stuck in when you're trying to go into John Lewis in a hurry and you go too fast and you get stuck? No, of course they don't. But on the other hand, should a political party respond to a very clear message from the public, not just 10 days ago at the ballot box, but repeatedly being shown time and time again not just that they're unpopular, but also their own angst that the guy at the top is not very good at making decisions?

[Chris Mason]

Colin from Kentish Town emails. He's probably in Keir Starmer's house.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

He might be, yeah.

[Chris Mason]

Hi, everyone. Why the panic? Do you really think that the UK is more ungovernable than, say, France or the usa? Cheers, says Colin.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I don't know. I mean, I think, I think it's become fashionable to say, my goodness, it's impossible to govern this country has become just a writhing bag of snakes and it's all far too difficult. Nobody would ever be able to have a good go at it. I. I don't think that. I think we've seen. We saw from very early on that Keir Starmer and his team went into number 10 and they hadn't done as much work as they told us. All they'd done to be ready to get into government. We don't have a parallel universe to say had they done that work, had they not done the winter fuel allowance decision, had they not made various mistakes before, had Keir Starmer been better at party management from the off? It's perfectly possible in that parallel universe that this government might have had a few bumps and scrapes, but they'd be trotting along perfectly nicely with a decent majority in a complicated world. I don't think the fact that Keir Starmer's had a terribly hard time translates into the fact that it's impossible to govern this country anymore.

[Chris Mason]

You're saying it's not ungovernable. But also Labour has got to front up to the fact that it had a difficult job, but it made it more difficult by losing one chief of staff, one Washington ambassador, one by election, one local election, one national election, another national election and we can say that the record is in and it's bad. But the read across that we can't govern our country, I think is part of the post Brexit Britain that years from now people will say, several things happened in the uk.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

And one of them was, we voted to stay in because we joined under an act of Parliament. Then we had a referendum in the 70s and the public voted to stay in. Didn't vote to go in, we voted to stay in, then we voted to come out. Those are two big book lens. And when you throw something very sudden into the life of a developed economy, nothing can be quite at the speed necessary. It's like gears in a gearbox. So some of the angriest people I meet are Brexiteers who don't feel they got the Brexit they wanted. So I'm not making a remain point, I'm making a constitutional point. When you ask yourself, why have we had everyone in the country having a go at being Prime Minister? Everyone's no one left. I think you can make a reasonable case it's a post Brexit Britain.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think that's right. Because it's a Brexit. Whether you were for it or against it is not the point. It Unplugged everything. It was like a giant reset and our politicians really struggled to decide where they were going to put the wires back. And it was 10 years ago this week.

[Chris Mason]

No.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That Boris Johnson launched the vote leave Big Red bus.

[Chris Mason]

No.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, 10 years ago. And I think to the day that Keir Starmer stood up and made his speech and had to be fighting for his life. And I think that's right. I think our political systems and our political parties haven't, you know, they're in a new world. They haven't quite worked out how it is. And it was something so enormous that it was always going to take a very long time. Add to that a pandemic, an unpredictable American President, all. All those other things. But I don't think that should lead us to conclude that, ah, the UK system of government is fundamentally kaput and

[Chris Mason]

we need to add to the list. And you've flown there, unlike me. Ukraine, the war in Ukraine, which is obviously another of these giant unknowns which we're listing at the moment for the difficult job of being a British Prime Minister. Yeah, that's also true. And there was another interesting moment, which is that the handover of power from the Conservatives to Labor saw a handover of the policy on Ukraine, that although this is a very polarized times, we actually had a mono policy, really on Ukraine.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, it's been very consistent.

[Voter in 1965 Archive]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

And that, you know, the country is interested when politicians cooperate and what's happening is the Labour Party can't cooperate with. Actually, I think that these are the churning up issues and I don't see how the British voter can calm down at the moment because many people write to you and write to us, just exhausted by it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, and I think people un. I think it's unusual for people to calm down. I think it's quite common now for people to turn off and that's not a good thing.

[Chris Mason]

It's not good.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Anyway, I do feel that you put on your history teacher outfit for a reason today because we've been having a very grand conversation which, which is very good to have. But Dr. Andrew Clegg, who is a very smart newscaster, has contacted us about a cautionary tale from 1965 in Leighton in East London. Now, Patrick Gordon Walker was the Foreign Secretary. He was sent by Harold Wilson, of course, who was a Labour Prime Minister who wanted him to be an MP in the constituency of Leighton, and they forced someone else to stand down in order for him to run. However, local people in Leighton perfectly entitled to be so cross that they were having this candidate imposed on them that in the end actually he lost. And that may well seem like in this moment of huge chop and change in the Labour Party, to be something of a cautionary tale who think that Andy Barnum might be expecting a safe run in Makerfield.

[Chris Mason]

So here is what voters told the BBC in 1965 about their mood. This is. If this had been. If I'd been alive, I would have been interviewing them because I've interviewed everyone in Britain.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Are you sure it wasn't.

[Chris Mason]

It wasn't. I wasn't alive in 1965. So here we go with what voters said was in their minds at this foistering on them.

[Voter in 1965 Archive]

Normally I would vote labor, but I don't know, I'm a funny person, I suppose I thought, well, it seems a bit unfair to boot Sorensen out so that someone else that couldn't get a seat somewhere else had a chance.

The reason I voted like I did was because I've lived in Leyton for 50 years and I'm a man 78 years of age and I've got so tired of listening to the promises made by the various people we've had in power that I thought we'd have a change.

I never have voted Conservative but, well, since Labour came in, all food prices have gone up, haven't they? Mainly I think because I didn't approve of the way that Mr. Gorn Walker was rather foisted on us.

He's not a local man and well, like a lot of other people I spoke to, well, we just resented him coming in really. So I voted Liberal.

I think it's the fact that the man that I would have voted if I was an outsider.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, Andy Burnham is not an outsider in Makerfield. However, voters do not like being told what to do and they do not like politicians taking them for granted. And they do not like politicians who are complacent expecting them to vote for them.

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[Tristan Redman]

How did Russell Brand become a Christian influencer? I'm Tristan Redman.

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[Tristan Redman]

Brand is facing charges of rape, which he denies.

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

In. In an unnecessary contest which some people might feel it's not needed, there's a

[Chris Mason]

little wrinkle, which is that he did win in 1966. So we. We've all been learning. You've. I've dressed up as a history teacher, dressed up my history research. So he. He did actually win a year later. But just in terms of the kind of. We're going to send you, the message you don't think we're going to send you. That's a very British streak. Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Rebel, you know, people are. It's round heads. But we just don't know what's going to happen in Makerfield and it's going to be very, very interesting to find out.

[Chris Mason]

Now, we can also got. We've got the taste file archive. This is from newscast back in 2021.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Now, can I give a bit of context before we play this clip?

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So Andy Burnham has become known as King of the North. But what's interesting is we're going to go back to 2021, which was during the pandemic, when he is mayor of Greater Manchester, was making great play of standing up to Boris Johnson more for his part of the world, talking about the lockdown rules, all those kinds of things. And that nickname, sort of King of the north had started to sort of be used a little bit in the newspapers. But to my memory, he himself had never sort of acknowledged it any before because it is, you know, it's part. It's a pretty, should we say, stretchy thing for a politician to say to go along with a joke. And you might expect them to be a bit more modest. But when Adam, for reasons I cannot remember, decided to dress up as Andy Burnham, I think unintentionally, but I just said he decided, so I don't know. This is how Andy Burnham himself responded to our suggestions.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Laura, I've come dressed as one of our guests tonight because they've got a trademark look.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, I see.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Polo shirt done all the way up to the top button.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yep.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Kind of dad. Like anorak.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. I think that's technically. That's a Kagul, isn't it?

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

I don't know.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Is it a wind cheater?

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Got a bit of New Order playing on my phone on the way into work.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Have you got Clarks on your feet? Other shoe brands are available.

[Chris Mason]

Ish.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Ish.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Who could it be? Andy Burnham re elected as mayor of Greater Manchester. You do have a signature look, don't you, Andy?

[Chris Mason]

You're missing the crown there.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Oh, it's the King of the North.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

King of the North. There we are. Self declared.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Do you listen to.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I can't remember him saying it ever before. And there he was. Where's my Crown?

[Chris Mason]

And that's 2021.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

2021. I don't know who those young looking people were. Anyway, I thought that, I remember thinking at the time, wow, he's just learned into that. I thought he might say something really. Oh, no, really modest. And I'd planned to say, oh, you King of the North. And I thought he would say, no, no, no, not at all. That's a silly thing to say.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, I mean it's, I, I, that's a really good. Our archive section could be our most popular section if we're not careful. All my babblings about current contemporary politics. Yeah, absolutely forgotten in favor of the archive.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Interesting. Barnum has been canvassing this afternoon in Makers Field out already, and he's told reporters, he said, I wouldn't have gone just anywhere like a carpet bagger. It matters to me that I have a connection here. I live literally on the edge of this constituency. My kids went to school a few hundred yards down the road. I know the people here, I know how they think, I know how they feel. So I think we're going to hear a lot of that, that in the next few weeks and I think I know how they feel. Is the key thing about a politician like Andy Barnum, you know, I've seen him on the doorstep interacting with voters. He is somebody who, whatever newscasters think of him or not, he is one of those politicians who many people feel talks for them and can talk to them in a natural way. And of course, for the Labour Party, for many people, that is the fundamental chip that's been missing from Keir Starmer is that ability to connect, that ability to emote. And you know, in that sense, Andy Barnum sort of is a, is a kind of vibes politician in the way that Nigel Farage is a vibes politician. And yeah, you can go through his track record and say, well, he said this then and he said that then and oh, look, he doesn't even agree with himself. And. Or does he want to go back into the European Union? Or what does he really think about this? And what does he really think about that? And oh, he used to be a playwright and now he says something else. But he's a politician. He's a politician about emotion and for people in the Labour Party who think he is their answer. That is so much of what it's about. It's about providing that connection in a world where people look to politicians and. And don't like what they see. So if they look at a politician who seems like a human being, who they might even imagine having a normal conversation with, that can be a real strength.

[Chris Mason]

I was doing what you did for a living in the week I stood in Downing street for six hours and there were some very familiar faces there from great journalistic peers and rivals and working for all the other.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Your unrivaled paddock.

[Chris Mason]

Well, all the other broadcasters who we wish great success to.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Indeed, yeah.

[Chris Mason]

Who aren't compulsorily funded by TV licenses, so. But one thing I noticed was a load of people from European countries trying to explain what was going on in the UK to their viewers in different languages.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Good luck with that.

[Chris Mason]

So, I mean, it's worth saying that although you've just perfectly summarised, as Laura Kuenssberg can, what the Burnham factor is for the people who like him, when you step away from being in the Labour Party, you then have to talk about what's happening in the United Kingdom to a party with a 400 seat majority in a parliamentary system which has three more years to go on the general. General election clock. And then you try and do that in Portuguese. I think that would be. I think we should get the Portuguese reporter to do it in Portuguese. So look, we're definitely at the end now because I'm talking about Portugal.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's a nice thing to talk about. But yes, I have to go and do another interview for tomorrow, so. Yes, we will. We will see what happens by tomorrow morning. What are you doing on your program tomorrow?

[Chris Mason]

Well, we're going to do a profile of Makerfield. We're going to ask Conservative leader Cami Badenog if the chaos that the Conservatives started with prime ministers is the same as the chaos she's criticized Labour for. And there's more. We're doing a list of butterflies as well, as a matter of fact.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, how lovely. And that's a very nice thing about Broadcasting House because you go, oh, R.L. cross politics, shouty things. And then lovely things in the world. Because there are also lovely things in the world. And we'll be doing some shouty politics tomorrow. Hopefully not too shouty politics. Well, we are speaking to Lisa Nandy, the Culture Secretary, who's of course a pretty much a next door neighbor of Andy Barnum. And we are also talking to Kemi Badenoch, the Conservative leader. We'll be talking to Josh Simons, who is the reason actually why labor either has this opportunity or is in this mess, because he's the one who has given up his seat for Andy Barnum. And, oh, we'll do a bit of Eurovision. So we're going to be speaking to Lavois, who's the UK score scorer. So would that be the correct technical term?

[Chris Mason]

No, I don't think so.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No. I don't know. Well, we talked. Let's see the people who've done this course with Catherine Tate, Sophie Ellis Bextra, Joanna Lumley. So the people who do the no point, Deuce point. So we'll be doing a bit of that.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, The. The spokesperson for the UK spokesperson. Great fun. Yeah. So we say thank you very much for listening.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We do.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

And goodbye.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Adam (dressed as Andy Burnham)]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason. Ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you, we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.

[Tristan Redman]

Is this a new beginning for China, US relations? Donald Trump seems to think so. I'm Tristan Redman, host of the Global Story from the BBC. After his state visit to Beijing, President Trump said he expects US China relations to be better than ever. Does Xi Jinping feel the same way? For more, look for the global story on BBC.com or wherever you listen.