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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
- [00:06]
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- [01:10]
Paddy O'Connell
It's the last weekend of this cast.
- [01:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think you should start now. Okay.
- [01:17]
Paddy O'Connell
It's the last weekend of our week. Careers. It's the last weekend of our careers. No, it's the last weekend newscast of the. And I look like I've been inflated with the bicycle pump. And you've come dressed as Mrs. Claus.
- [01:43]
Laura Kuenssberg
Regular listeners might know that sometimes at the weekends things go slightly awry and Paddy and I start laughing about I'm not quite sure what. But today it will all be very serious, apart from I have come dressed as Mrs. Claus and there is tinsel around the newscast. Television, courtesy of producer Chris. So we say welcome one and all to our festive edition of Saturday's newscast. The last Saturday newscast of 2025. We will be talking about the not very festive clash between the government and the bma. The Union of Medical Doctors, which at the moment represents resident doctors, used to be called junior doctors and they are in a political standoff not just with the Health Secretary, Wes Streng, but the Prime Minister, Sir Starmer, who's trying to persuade them not to go on strike while flu is spreading at pace across the nhs. So we'll be talking about that this afternoon, among other things.
- [02:34]
BBC Newscast Announcer
Newscast, newscast from the BBC.
- [02:37]
Paddy O'Connell
Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.
- [02:40]
Laura Kuenssberg
I was the tattletail in the classroom.
- [02:41]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody.
- [02:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
Then daddy has to sometimes use strong language.
- [02:46]
Paddy O'Connell
Next time in mosque I feel the.
- [02:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
Lulu with no salulu.
- [02:50]
BBC Newscast Announcer
Take me down to Downing Street.
- [02:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
Let's go have a tour.
- [02:53]
Paddy O'Connell
Blimey. Hello, it's Paddy in the studio and.
- [02:57]
Laura Kuenssberg
It'S Laura in the studio and I have stopped laughing now.
- [03:00]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, I'm not surprised. Face with this news agenda.
- [03:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes. What are you waving around and why?
- [03:05]
Paddy O'Connell
This is a copy of the Guardian.
- [03:07]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [03:08]
Paddy O'Connell
Critics of BBC will say shock as BBC person reads the Guardian.
- [03:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, I was slightly thinking about that. However, the Guardian's important today because it's where the Prime Minister has, in no uncertain terms, told resident doctors, those of a younger generation, that it would be an awful thing to do if they go on strike while flu is raging through the nation. And he says it really in pretty stark terms. So I know earlier in the week Adam and co talked about what's going on in the doctor strike, the various different issues that this weekend opens with a real political standoff with the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary, Wes Streeting using very, very punchy language to have a go at the British Medical association and make all sorts of claims about they'd be doing a terrible thing if they do actually walk out on strike next week.
- [03:57]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah. The Prime Minister's article calls it reckless. I'll put this down now, you can take it from me, it does, but.
- [04:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
Reckless, that's really strong language, isn't it?
- [04:04]
Paddy O'Connell
Strong language. There's an survey, an indicative survey running this weekend of doctors, BMA members to see if they want to cancel strike action or not. And the poll results, the survey results will come out on Monday. So this intervention is deliberately timed to hit their decision making process. And many people in the BMA say it comes over really clumsily because the NHS can cope. The NHS is not collapsing.
- [04:30]
Laura Kuenssberg
And guess what? There's spin on all sides in this standoff. No surprise. But you do have the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary both cranking up the rhetoric, I think, in quite an emotive way to say not just to resident doctors, you shouldn't strike, but also to say to the country, look, this strike might be happening, but we really hope that you sympathize with us as the politicians trying to stop this happening, with the damage that there could be to patient care. But they're also using what some people describe as this super flu that's going right around the country. I know, almost everyone I know has had flu in the last couple of weeks to say that this strike action would basically be unforgivable because of what's going on in hospitals right now and warning that the NHS could almost sort of collapse under the weight of it. But it's interesting, as you said, a senior figure in the nhs, the medical director in London, suggested actually what is going on is still within the bounds of what the NHS could cope with. So you've got to be careful with the spin on both sides here.
- [05:37]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, he's Chris Strether. Well, within the boundaries. This flu outbreak is different, we are told by health colleagues. And also listening to newscasts with Adam, because it started spreading earlier. We all know about ways of infection. We were educated the hard way during COVID So flu happens every year. Hello, we know that happens every year. It's coinciding with Christmas, it's coinciding with strike action that is currently the subject of this political argument. As a Labour Prime Minister who believes in workers right to strike, how surprised are you by the intervention by the Prime Minister as well as the Health Secretary?
- [06:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think it's interesting and I think it's significant. And I. And I think it tells you how worried actually the government is about it.
- [06:20]
Paddy O'Connell
Because they made the 29% pay rise and they were told at the time by political opponents, you haven't got much out of the doctors in return for giving them 29%.
- [06:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
And remember too, that one of the things that Wes Cheating offered people when they were in opposition, he said, as a Labor Health Secretary, I'll be able to sort out the strikes. Those terrible Tories, they let strikes happen. They had no idea how to deal with the unions. Lo and behold, actually in office, dealing with the bma, which is incredibly powerful and its critics would say also has a strain of political activism in it, rather than only trying to stand up for the rights of doctors. Actually, after all, the BMA can behave in a way that many unions believe they absolutely right to, to be incredibly tough on the people on the opposite side of the negotiating table. I think also the timing of your Star wars intervention is important because as you said, it's right now, over this next few days, that resident doctors are able to tell their union online whether or not they think this improved offer from the Health Secretary is up to scratch. But you're in this weird situation where government sources would say, look, at least they've put it to members, at least they're seeing that they're testing the waters. So there's a possibility that it might be called off. But actually the government themselves, just as patients are or members of the public are, they're in limbo. They don't actually know what's going to happen next. So in the meantime, they've got to crack on with planning for what could be a very disruptive strike of several days at a time when there's immense pressure on health services, all the while hoping to goodness crossing their fingers that actually enough resident doctors go online over the weekend to think, you know what, actually, is this the right thing to do?
- [08:09]
Paddy O'Connell
I spent some time in the sort of classical neo Georgian HQ of the.
- [08:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
British Medical association in a very fancy bit of London.
- [08:16]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to really understand the life of people who saved, save lives. So this is a row and I, you and me, don't actually save lives for a living.
- [08:27]
Laura Kuenssberg
No.
- [08:27]
Paddy O'Connell
So I. I want to be clear that I respect these, the people in the nhs. And it's something that, in asking sniffy questions, it's amazing to think that of the work the NHS does, or everyone has a story of someone or themselves being saved by the nhs, and one of the people who has a story like that is Wes treating.
- [08:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes, indeed.
- [08:47]
Paddy O'Connell
So, I mean, I want to get that out there because newscasters are nurses, doctors and hospital porters. But one of the things that they said to me was, it's that they say they're going to improve their conditions and then they don't do it quickly enough. So one of the new offers from west street is to prioritize British medical graduates for training posts. And this is about career progression. So I asked Dr. Callum Parr from the BMA, does he meet doctors who say, let's call the strike off? That was the question I asked on Newsnight, and here's what he said.
- [09:21]
Dr. Callum Parr
So I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. So for some doctors, there are things in there that they might like and they might want to vote for, but the deal is notably missing some other things, like pay. So really, this is what the members are going to feed back on as to whether they think there is enough in there to call off the strikes.
- [09:35]
Paddy O'Connell
But do you meet doctors who say, let's call it off? You must meet some people who've made up their mind one way or the other. Do you meet some who want to stop?
- [09:43]
Dr. Callum Parr
So there are some people who are really worried about unemployment. So we are currently in an employment cycle now for doctors, so this is where they apply for jobs to become the consultants and GPs of the future. So some of those doctors are worried and I think there are some things in there that they might find that they want to vote for.
- [09:59]
Paddy O'Connell
But do you mean, to answer the question, yes, if I'm asking you, do you meet doctors who want to call off the strike in a one Word answer, it's yes you do. Now that's obviously yes and no, but there are doctors.
- [10:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's interesting and it's hard to get a read on it. So someone in government said to me this afternoon, we're recording at 10 to 2 on Saturday. They said actually it's quite difficult to get a handle on where the body of opinion is. It is because you have online, guess what, our favorite topic online. There's a pretty shouty debate online. There are people who feel incredibly strongly about this, as they're entitled to do, expressing their opinions in a very, very trenchant way. Then most people who are doctors, maybe they're working today, maybe they're listening to newscast, maybe they're doing a shift or maybe they're doing a Christmas shopping or maybe they're asleep because they were working overnight in a crowded A and E department. For most people, online activism and being politically involved in this isn't really what this is about. This is about their working conditions and not they think the deal that the government's now putting forward for them is something that's good enough and the government doesn't really have a handle on where that body of opinion will be. So it's sort of interesting. They really are in, in limbo. And also look, whatever happens with this strike, whether it's on or off, with the flu spreading as it is, unquestionably there's going to be an awful lot of pressure. There already is an awful lot of pressure on health services at what's already a busy time of year because it's come early, as you say, and timing.
- [11:30]
Paddy O'Connell
Is so important and one of the most sort of cold faced parts of our life is the nhs. That is you cut the Britain open and you get the nhs. So there we have the intervention of the Prime Minister. It's why I wielded the Guardian at the start, because that's where he's written.
- [11:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
And the BMA has hit back to that article and Wes Treating's comments today and accused the government of scaremongering. So resident doctors might over the weekend decide as a group that they don't want to go on strike after all that it's worth thinking about this offer, taking it seriously or perhaps it's worth delaying the strike action until after Christmas. But it's very clear that the two, so that the heads of both serpents if you like, there's no sign at all from them calming things down because the politicians have been cracking up the rhetoric and the BMA has done that too by accusing them of scaremongering.
- [12:22]
Paddy O'Connell
And unlike journalists, doctors are held in very high regard by the British public. Yes, and I say that again because obviously it does. It can look like, you know, we're trying to dismiss the concerns of people who are very important in our life, which I don't dismiss them, but there is a big political row about it and they are losing public opinion on this. The poll shows that the public, although they really respect and love doctors, the support for this strike is ebbing away in the public.
- [12:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's also important to know, I think, as well, doctors, obviously, as a group, they don't all think the same way.
- [12:54]
Paddy O'Connell
Exactly.
- [12:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
There are also tensions between doctors of an older generation and the younger generation, just like in any profession. So, you know, this is a checkerboard with all sorts of different pieces and different feelings and different sentiments. But the politics of it, I think, has taken a crank up in the last 24 hours, as the government desperately hopes that the resident doctors are going to call it off. They feel encouraged that at least they're having this online consultation over the weekend, which wasn't a given. Whether that transpires into a better result and the strike is actually called off, we will see. And on Monday, the result of that will be revealed and we'll see what happens next.
- [13:36]
Paddy O'Connell
So what is the union relationship with the Labour Party like at the moment, given that Labour is the party of the trade unions?
- [13:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
Very difficult for several different reasons. Firstly, some of the unions are really unhappy about what they perceive as the repeated rollbacks on the Employment Rights Bill, which is going through Parliament at the moment. And some of the unions think that the government's given too much away, too much has been surrendered, and that the bill is going to end up unrecognizable to what it was meant to be, which is the most sweeping reform to workers rights that you've seen in generations. So some of the unions are very unhappy about how that has been filleted. The sort of more mainstream unions, if you like, say the Unison or the gmb, those big, like, clunky unions who've got huge numbers of members and huge amounts of political power. They are generally, there's the sort of unions in the middle, I would say, are very worried, I think, about the government's seeming failure to really get to grips with governing in many ways, of course, to be pleased about things like removing the limits on bigger families, getting some benefits. But I think there's deep anxiety in the sort of center of union opinion about the government that they helped to put In Power Fund and funded. Yeah. Failing to perform. And that anxiety is real, too, about the quality of the Prime Minister's leadership and his ability to do a good job. Not just in the last 18 months, but I'm not sure that confidence among the union movement in general in his ability to turn that round is high. Now, of course, you then get the unions who maybe are more shouty, or their fans might say they're the ones who are more radical, they're more willing to speak out in ways. Some of those unions are the smaller ones that aren't actually officially affiliated, to use the jargon. So whether that might be the University lecturers union or one of the teaching unions, and the ones who tend to have more spiky language and who'd be more sort of visibly like of the left rather than people who are, oh, we're really big and powerful and we really want to work with the Labour Party. But one of the powerful people who has been with us in the studio, Sharon Graham, the leader of unite, has for some time been dangling the possibility that her union might stop writing checks for the Labour Party. Now, UNITE and Labor, I should say, have had a difficult relationship in lots of ways. For a while, it's been fractious, if not fractured, but fractious. It's like sort of relatives who really love arguing with each other. It's also worth saying that union leaders themselves have to run for election, and generating headlines and saying spiky things can be a way of themselves reaffirming their own political support. But there's definitely a possibility, There is a real possibility that UNITE will officially pull up stumps and stop giving Labour money. And they are one of the biggest donors, depending on which period of time you look at. Are they the biggest or not? Depends on when you look at the money. But it is a serious risk that UNITE might pull up stumps. But the other unions that are less shouty, I think they're probably kind of going to stay in the bag. But even Christina McAnee, actually, who is currently the leader of Unison, the big health union, the last time she was on the show with us on a Sunday morning, she was quite explicit. She wasn't confident that Keir Starmer was going to take labor into the next election. And from her, who's seen as quite a sort of, you know, moderate figure, who wants to be constructive, that was quite a remark to make, and I was quite surprised that she went that far in a public.
- [17:37]
Paddy O'Connell
Now we spend a lot of time talking about the echr. Yes, but You've deliberately asked me to be the person who has to say the ehrc. Words, letters.
- [17:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's an acronym. What a fun parlor game. Yes. And what is the ehrc?
- [17:53]
Paddy O'Connell
The Equalities and Human Rights Commission, which is a UK based organization, unlike the echr, which we are a signatory.
- [18:01]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's right. And the EHRC is the body that is in charge of essentially designing the rules that protect people's race, their human rights, if they are disabled, their sexuality, all sorts of things. And it is, I suppose, it's kind of like the watchdog, in a way. It can also be critical of the government. If a piece of legislation, if they worry that that's going to somehow have a detrimental effect on human rights, they can call that out. And they are accountable to Parliament. And most particularly in the last couple of years, they've been part of our political conversation because of the often angry, sometimes very controversial debate about the clash between women's rights and the rights of transgender people. Since the Supreme Court ruled in April that it was biological sex that was important rather than gender, since then, the EHRC has been trying to come up with the new rules that are going to have huge consequences for the kinds of changing rooms or lose that businesses or employers have to provide or what sports teams should do. And the interim guidance that was pursuit produced essentially caused huge controversy because it kind of in reality, would have prevented any transgender person from using facility that they wanted to, according to the gender that they choose to live in. And it basically said this all has to be decided because of biological sex. And their interpretation of this Supreme Court ruling was very controversial indeed.
- [19:42]
Paddy O'Connell
Now you've been speaking to the new boss because the leadership has just changed. Just as the Supreme Court decisions come a few months ago, the leadership of this very important role, which is legally important, but it's also part of our political culture now to have an opinion on this. So you get, you get parties on the left asked, people on the left asked, can a woman have a penis?
- [20:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes.
- [20:04]
Paddy O'Connell
And also, are all pregnant people women? This is a sort of question that you're asked all the time.
- [20:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
It is. And it's a question that mainstream politicians have been used to having to answer. And actually, it's an issue that actually, when she was in government, Cami Badenoch made a lot of play and a lot of political. She got a lot of political attention for, in her view, calling some of that out. And she would say she took a much more common sense view than what was a sort of political fashion where you did have Keir summer, sitting, squirming and sort of unable to answer those questions because he was very afraid of offending one group or another. So into this walks the new boss, Dr. Marianne Stevenson, having taken over from Baroness Faulkner, who was seen as being very outspoken on these issues, who said that the government's abandoned women's rights, who said that the law from the Supreme Court was actually very, very clear and was seen by many trans groups as having taken that organization to a place that is too harsh and a situation where some trans groups would say that trans people are being excluded because of what the Supreme Court says. So for all of those reasons, and I'm giving rather a lot of convoluted detail, but Dr. Marianne Stevenson has a very important job, and there's also a huge amount of pressure on her to be clear about what people are actually meant to do now. So, first of all, I was asking her, trying to get clarity on what will happen in real life if a transgender person wants to use the facilities that match their gender rather than their biological sex, what should happen in that situation? And should businesses or swimming pool attendants or people who work in a coffee shop, how should they manage it? Should they actually be going around and checking that people are using the right facilities? This is what she said.
- [21:58]
Dr. Marianne Stevenson
Nobody is expecting there to be a toilet police. But equally, if there are situations where there are complaints about regular problems, then people might need to kind of improve signage, improve explanations, make sure they've got alternative provision, and so on. But these are things that can be sorted out.
- [22:17]
Laura Kuenssberg
The other difficult thing for her, which I asked her about, is in the past, she donated money to the legal campaign of a lawyer who said she'd been discriminated against because she had gender critical views. Now, gender critical is what's become known as the way of describing women, although not only women, but women in particular, who would say, I'm worried about access to single sex spaces. I'm concerned that women's rights have taken a back seat to the rights of transgender people who want choice over how they behave in the world and the kinds of places that they have access to. And because Marianne Stevenson had donated to that cause, some trans groups said, well, hang on a minute, she's not. She can't be neutral in this. How can she possibly be neutral? She's the wrong person for the job. So I put that to her and asked her if really she could be objective, because to some people, she's given the impression that in a very difficult debate, she had picked a side.
- [23:15]
Dr. Marianne Stevenson
I donated to the case because I was frustrated about situations where women were being harassed and losing their jobs on the basis of lawfully held beliefs. And that case was successful. You know, if that's taking a side, it's taking a side on the side of kind of democratic norms and open discussion and dialogue.
- [23:39]
Paddy O'Connell
It's worth saying that a lot of changes has already started happening because of the Supreme Court decision without seeing the guidance that the EHRC has given to the government. And the suspicion is that the Labor. Labor is sitting on it because they think it's going to cause a stramash when they publish it.
- [23:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
Third use of stramash in one episode of the podcast, which is excellent. Yeah. I mean, that's the criticism is that labor doesn't want to upset its own activists. That's the suspicion is they're sitting on it. But as you say, some organizations have already, you know, basically taken their own legal advice. If you look at the Women's Institute of changed some of their rules, A Girl Guides have changed some of their rules. I think there's a demonstration even against that today. But, you know, a normal business or a members organization, all the rest, they don't want to be going around having to pay a lawyer to work out what they're meant to do, who they're allowed to allow into their premises, what on earth they're meant to do. So there's a huge amount of pressure on her and the government to be clear about this. But it's also worth saying the EHRC has lots and lots of responsibilities. So we also talked to her about the government's plan to tinker with the Convention on Human Rights, the echr. We also asked her about her views on race and whether race has returned as a part of our political conversation in a way that she is comfortable with. It's very interesting, though. Just last word on this. Having met her and talked to her at some length, I can see part of the reason why the government would have wanted her in that job, Even though some MPs thought she didn't have the right experience for it. Because in a very hot and angry debate, she comes across as someone who's very calm, very measured, talks about things in a very careful and precise way. And after years of a very, very angry debate, whatever you make of the decisions that she might make in that job, you can see why the government has tried to bring a character like that into a very fraught territory of conversation. And maybe having her in that post will create a new environment in that conversation. I'm not sure that will prove to be the case, given how strong some people's feelings are, but we'll see.
- [25:59]
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- [27:29]
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- [28:35]
Paddy O'Connell
Actually, I should say I'm doing an interesting thing, I think, for once. But I've spoken to Dame Sheila Hancock.
- [28:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, that's amazing.
- [28:42]
Paddy O'Connell
Who loves driving.
- [28:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
Right.
- [28:45]
Paddy O'Connell
And she's 92 and she takes it very seriously. So she's just taken an advanced driving test.
- [28:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
Good for her, I think. So did you go for a spin?
- [28:53]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes.
- [28:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
Where did you did you go?
- [28:54]
Paddy O'Connell
We went round near the Thames around West London.
- [28:57]
Laura Kuenssberg
How lovely it was.
- [28:59]
Paddy O'Connell
And she's a great driver. But it's one of the things that comes up in families at Christmas is when should Granny or Granddad give up the car keys?
- [29:07]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, yeah, I know a thing or two about that. But I'm not going to go there.
- [29:10]
Paddy O'Connell
No. I think lots of anyone, many people listening will have a view on this. And so. But she. I was thought. It's the first time I've heard that you know what I'm going to do. I know there's concern about drivers who are 90. I've just taken and passed an advanced driving test.
- [29:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
Good for her.
- [29:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Good for her.
- [29:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
What kind of motor does she have?
- [29:27]
Paddy O'Connell
She has a very neat little hybrid which she drives brilliantly. She parked it like we were on Top Gear.
- [29:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
That's amazing. What a lovely thing. I look forward to listening to that one. Catch up after we've done the telly and the Sunday news.
- [29:38]
Paddy O'Connell
What have you got on goodness?
- [29:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, we've got the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood and a Christmas treat from Kate Winslet and friends.
- [29:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Oh, how lovely.
- [29:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
Very lovely. All to be revealed tomorrow morning on BBC One. And we'll be back tomorrow afternoon.
- [29:49]
Paddy O'Connell
Goodbye. Okay, Newscast.
- [29:52]
BBC Newscast Announcer
Newscast from the BBC.
- [29:53]
Chris Mason
Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link to in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared, it's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-2390 480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.
- [30:40]
Paddy O'Connell
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