Starmer Vs Streeting?

Summary

Newscast – “Starmer Vs Streeting?”
BBC News Podcast | May 13, 2026
Host: Adam Fleming
Guests: Chris Mason (BBC Political Editor), Faisal Islam (BBC Economics Editor)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Newscast delves into the ongoing turbulence within the Labour Party, focusing on both the imminent threat to Keir Starmer’s leadership and the possible challenge from West Streeting. The hosts expertly guide listeners through a packed day at Westminster, blending parliamentary spectacle (the State Opening of Parliament and King’s Speech) with high-stakes leadership drama, and connect this political uncertainty to broader economic and policy implications.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Turbulent Labour Leadership Plot

[03:56 – 10:19]

• The episode opens with a recap of the previous 48 hours, highlighting shifting momentum in the Labour leadership crisis.

  • Catherine West’s flirtation with a “stalking horse” candidacy briefly boosted Starmer, but subsequent calls for his resignation escalated the turmoil.
  • The leadership challenge narrative pivots to Wes Streeting and speculation about Andy Burnham’s ambitions.

• On Tuesday night, Starmer allies felt bullish:

  “They were pretty chipper… principally, frankly, because they’d survived the day.”
  — Chris Mason [04:34]

• Discussion of how candidates qualify for a leadership contest: Burnham needs a seat; Streeting needs 81 MPs backing him.

2. The Streeting/Starmer Coffee – A Political Set Piece

[06:40 – 08:40]

• Wes Streeting’s brief (17 min) morning meeting with Keir Starmer at No 10 is painted as a moment of high political theatre, sparking intense speculation.
• Streeting’s allies expect him to announce a challenge imminently:

  “Friends of Wes Streeting… expect him to launch a challenge as soon as tomorrow.”
  — Chris Mason [07:23]

3. Market Nerves and the Cost of Political Instability

[09:09 – 11:33]

• Faisal Islam details how bond markets have “yo-yoed” as rumours about Starmer’s security and Streeting’s intentions ripple out.

  “The uncertainty is not great…but it’s not panic stations…there’s warning sort of signals coming out.”
  — Faisal Islam [11:19]

• The economic takeaway: Even unconfirmed threats of leadership change can affect borrowing costs and investor confidence.

4. Starmer’s Case for Stability

[11:33 – 13:40]

• As the King’s Speech unfolds, Starmer works the tea rooms to shore up support, pitching himself as a bulwark against chaos:

  “He is making the case that he’s been the political antidote to chaos.”
  — Chris Mason [11:44]

• Starmer vows to fight on, portraying himself as determined and “in there for the scrap.”

5. The Theatrics of King’s Speech Day

[13:40 – 17:25]

• The day’s rituals—MPs herded by Black Rod, jokes about Andy Burnham (“Not now, Andy!”)—intertwine with Labour’s internal drama.

  “It’s like the walk of awkwardness…with a camera in your face and Britain’s premier lip readers deployed.”
  — Chris Mason [15:39]

• Commentary on how political observers may over-interpret every glance and gesture.

6. What’s Actually in the King’s Speech?

[17:25 – 28:08]

• Focus on the government’s legislative priorities amid leadership uncertainty.

  • Much of the agenda is “technical plumbing of the economy”—regulatory sandboxes, competition law, but little in terms of headline pledges.

  • The standout: the “European Partnership Bill” (ex-Dynamic Alignment Bill), paving the way for dynamic alignment with select EU law.

    “Are we leading up to an argument about…rejoining the single market?”
    — Faisal Islam [20:21]

  • Energy security and infrastructure bills are discussed, with doubts about the government’s ability to deliver.

    “They desperately need this to happen…things like the political—I think we can call it chaos—they don’t help.”
    — Faisal Islam [24:26]

7. Would New Legislation Even Stick?

[25:57 – 28:08]

• The surreal possibility that a new Labour PM—possibly Streeting—could inherit and have to pass Starmer’s legislative programme.
  • Discussion of major policing reforms and terrorism law tweaks among the key bills.

8. Starmer’s Performance in Parliament

[28:43 – 29:27]

• Despite the drama, Starmer appeared relaxed and even joked during his King’s Speech reply:

  “I am a gooner and so as usual, she is less than half right.”
  — Keir Starmer [28:43]

• The juxtaposition of a leader “fighting for his political life” while maintaining humour and cheered by colleagues.

9. What Happens Next? The Mechanics and Dangers of a Contest

[30:25 – 36:08]

• The panel breaks down the public and higher-threshold nomination process for Labour contests vs. Tory leadership challenges.

  • Importance of a “relatively peaceful transition”—a Pyrrhic Streeting victory could fracture the party and paralyse government, with the bond markets skeptical of a PM who can’t hold Labour together.

  “The manner of any victory really matters…a sort of relatively peaceful transition is as important as the name of the personnel.”
  — Faisal Islam [32:41]

• The urgency behind Streeting’s allies pushing for a quick contest is also about preventing Andy Burnham from entering.

10. Other Westminster Stories

[36:41 – 37:41]

• Nigel Farage faces a Parliamentary investigation over undeclared gifts.
• Green Party’s Zack Polanski is under scrutiny for not paying the correct council tax on his houseboat.

  “This is what scrutiny looks like…both difficult moments for those two leaders.”
  — Chris Mason [36:50]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Westminster’s Mood Swings:
  “Everyone in this postcode is a human being…they ride the emotions very personally…they were chipper principally, frankly, because they’d survived the day.”
  — Chris Mason [04:34]

• On Market Instability:
  “Uncertainty is not great…there’s warning sort of signals coming out that whomever may want to take over might want to address.”
  — Faisal Islam [11:19]

• On the Potential for Quick Leadership Change:
  “The expectation from friends of Wes Streeting…is that it could be imminent.”
  — Chris Mason [07:23]

• On the EU Bill and Labour’s Direction:
  “Are we leading up to an argument about essentially…effectively rejoining the single market?”
  — Faisal Islam [20:21]

• On the Parliamentary Procedures for Leadership Challenges:
  “The bar is much higher…you’ve got to be public…and the threshold is people behind one candidate not reaching a threshold that triggers a process.”
  — Chris Mason [34:21]

• On the Importance of a Stable Transition:
  “The manner of any victory really matters in terms of the postmatch stability of any government…the process, the man[ner].”
  — Faisal Islam [32:41]

---

Important Timestamps

• Labour’s Leadership Crisis Recap: 03:56 – 06:40
• Streeting/Starmer Coffee & Challenge Speculation: 06:40 – 08:40
• Market Reactions: 09:09 – 11:33
• Starmer’s Case for Stability: 11:33 – 13:40
• King’s Speech Theatrics and Leadership Drama Colliding: 13:40 – 17:25
• Bill Highlights & Europe Alignment Discussion: 17:25 – 21:35
• Energy/Law Policy and Challenges of Delivering: 24:07 – 25:57
• Starmer’s Parliamentary Performance: 28:43 – 29:39
• The Mechanics and Dangers of a Contest: 30:25 – 36:08
• Farage & Polanski Scandals: 36:41 – 37:41

---

Episode Takeaway

This episode offers a gripping, inside look at a pivotal moment for the Labour Party and UK politics—saturated with Westminster intrigue, personality clashes, and a reminder that even the most technical legislative days can pivot on the drama of personal ambition and party unity. The hosts’ banter and eye for detail help listeners both understand and feel the stakes at play.

---

(End of summary)

Transcript

[Adam Fleming]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Asma Khalid]

She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama Marry you Will Flourish, based on the best selling novel the Other Bennet Sister, now streaming only on BritBox. Watch with a free trial at BritBox.com

[Chris Mason]

how did Russell Brand become a Christian influencer? I'm Tristan Redman.

[Asma Khalid]

And I'm Asma Khalid and we're the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Brand is facing charges of rape which he denies.

[Asma Khalid]

Over the years he's been a stand up TV host, author, Hollywood film star, podcaster and now a new religious incarnation.

[Chris Mason]

Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Adam Fleming]

Chris hello.

[Chris Mason]

Hi.

[Adam Fleming]

We've had a message from newscaster Alex

[Chris Mason]

who says hello Alex.

[Adam Fleming]

Hello Alex. Hello newscast gang. Chris has been camped outside Dining street all day and there's clearly a bit of a chill because he's wrapped himself up in a very natty car coat. Though my wife is not keen on it. Oops. I think he looks rather dapper. Where could I get my hands on one similar.

[Chris Mason]

Well, I'm glad to divide opinions in your, in your household and happy to be, you know, talking about fashion, which is my true love at the beginning of this, of this edition. So that particular coat, I've had it for a while but it's really thin and it's basically a summer coat. In other words, I discovered standing in Downing street it's not really suitable for May, it's just not thick enough. But the previous one, the buttons fell off. So I've had to deploy the summer one a little earlier than frankly was was wise and I won't get into saying where it was from but wise, but I'm grateful for the endorsement from at least half of your household or maybe less than half. I don't know how many people are in your household, but certainly the two people you refer to yourself and your

[Adam Fleming]

partner and even, even your coat is impartial because some people hate it and some people love it. I mean perfect. That is you to a T. It

[Chris Mason]

is compliant with editorial guidelines.

[Adam Fleming]

This is good few My time as chief political correspondent when I spent many hours standing in Downing street, the only thing anyone remembers is the coat I used to wear, which I mean better to be Remembered for something rather than nothing.

[Chris Mason]

Well, precisely. Exactly.

[Adam Fleming]

Same as. Not the analysis, though, or the breaking. Loads of stories. But there we are.

[Chris Mason]

I think, you know, John Cole was remembered for his coat, wasn't he? Amongst many things, as a distinguished one of my predecessors. So I'm happy to. I'm happy people have noticed the mild

[Adam Fleming]

tittering you heard was from Faisal, who's here in the studio with me. You go for the twofer, don't you? Because you're never far away from that gilet. You go for a gilet jacket.

[Faisal Islam]

I know you're very, you know, twofer.

[Chris Mason]

I've never heard of a twofer.

[Faisal Islam]

Yeah, you fight. You find my gilet very amusing. But it saved me today because I was cycling in and it was sunny and then it went to extraordinary vertical. No, horizontal hail.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Faisal Islam]

Like going right into my face and I had to run into a live.

[Adam Fleming]

Almost.

[Faisal Islam]

It kept me dry.

[Adam Fleming]

And if this was a Radio 4 podcast, we'd say the pathetic fallacy in action, whereby the weather matches the events that are unfolding in front of our eyes, which we will unpick on this episode of Newscast.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast News from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Adam Fleming]

We are in the midst of a rupture.

[Asma Khalid]

Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.

[Keir Starmer]

Six, seven.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor. Daddy has. Has also a special quotation.

[Faisal Islam]

Ooh la la. Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Adam Fleming]

Do we play music now or what do we do? Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.

[Chris Mason]

And it's Chris at Westminster who's just googled Twofer and. And I'm trying to work out Pathetic fallacy. No, that's for tomorrow. I'm too tired for that twofer.

[Faisal Islam]

And it's Faisal in the twofer.

[Chris Mason]

Sorry, Faisal. Yeah, sorry.

[Adam Fleming]

And Faisal doesn't have a laptop, so he can't look up anything. He's just gonna have to live on his wits. No, Chris, there's so much happening with the labourer leadership plot arc that I feel we should maybe catch up with some things that happened in between the last episode of Newscast and this episode of Newscast, or where we're gonna start the story from today on Wednesday, we're recording at quarter to seven and I'm thinking back to Tuesday night and before I bed, looking on social media and looking at what other colleagues in political journalism were tweeting, they were saying things like, oh, number 10 feel a bit chipper on Tuesday night because they think maybe the immediate drama might have passed.

[Chris Mason]

So it's fair to point to ebbs and flows in the mood of the various camps in this story during the course of the last few days. And just as a brief sort of reprise of a case study that illustrates this from only 48 hours ago, you'll recall Catherine west, the former minister, and her suggestion on Saturday on Radio 4 that she might be a stalking horse candidate. And on Monday lunchtime she said she wouldn't be. And at that point that felt like good news for Keir Starmer. Then there was the drip, drip, drip of people saying he should go, and then that became something of a flood and then we had various ministers and ministerial aides doing it and it didn't look great for Keir Starmer. By last night, as I walked, talked to Fiona Bruce on the 10 o' clock news in Downing Street, I bumped into various folk who are in and around the Prime Minister and would regard themselves as the sort of Prime Minister's allies. And they were pretty chipper. Now, I think partially they were chipper. And look, everyone in this postcode is a human being and when they're involved in all of this, they ride the emotions very personally because not only for their, if you like, political ideals and vision and the person they might work for, whether that's the Prime Minister, if they're a minister or if they're an advisor or whatever, but also their employers, employment, which they can't be certain of. And they were chipper principally, frankly, because they'd survived the day. That was their principle, I think, motivation for their chipperness, but also because they were saying, and it stand, it remains true, as we record, if not necessarily for that much longer. But let's see that in the words of one person who I spoke to, Andy doesn't have a seat and Wes doesn't have the numbers reference to Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester, having not yet at least publicly found a seat that he can stand in to try and become an MP so that he could be a contender, a leadership contender. And West Streeting needing the numbers 81 MPs in order to be able to say, look, here I am, I'm a challenger. But fast forward into this morning and West Streeting goes in to see the Prime Minister for a cup of coffee for 17 minutes. I think the calculation was, yes, we should.

[Adam Fleming]

Let's just dwell on this actual moment of political theater because sometimes we get a bit hung up on the comings and goings in Downing street, but here was one where the coming and the going told the story well, well, maybe it did. I mean, well, there's multiple versions of what it could say.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, so. Yes, so, I mean, he turned up about 20 past 8 and he was out by about 20 to 9. And, you know, so instantly people said, cracky, you know, that was a. That was a very short meeting. How long does it take you to drink a cup of coffee?

[Adam Fleming]

Depends on the size of the coffee.

[Faisal Islam]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

Depends if it's a lungo or an espresso.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, what, A lungo.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. That's a very long coffee.

[Chris Mason]

I've never heard of it.

[Adam Fleming]

I think it might be one particular coffee brand, though, anyway, a Twofer Lun.

[Chris Mason]

And then we'll be. We'll be laughing.

[Adam Fleming]

That'd be huge.

[Chris Mason]

But. So it wasn't very long. I mean, it clearly wasn't very long. But then you don't need that long to say various things. We don't know what was said, but you don't need that long to say, you know, quite a bit. Out came West Streeting. He'd made it clear his team had made it clear he wasn't going to sort of do a sort of shed load of politics, certainly front of camera kind of stuff today. His only contribution to social media was a reference to a health bill in the. In the King's Speech, which I'm no doubt we'll talk about in a. In a bit. But it became pretty clear from his allies and his friends that they expect him to launch a challenge as soon as tomorrow. Now some of those people are encouraging him to do that and some of those people have themselves either gone public saying the Prime Minister should go or resigned from various positions saying the. Saying the same thing and are kind of hoping the guy that they want to succeed, Keir Starmer, comes over the top next. So that's where we are as we record with the expectation from friends of Wes Streeting and allies of his that it could be imminent not to turn

[Adam Fleming]

this into an episode of the Clothes Show. I've just noticed Faisal is wearing Christmas socks. Oh, no. Is that because it's Christmas in the bond markets?

[Faisal Islam]

It's. The honest truth is I've just moved house and I can't find any socks.

[Chris Mason]

Okay.

[Faisal Islam]

Anyway, are they a pair?

[Adam Fleming]

They are matching. So we. That's one thing.

[Chris Mason]

Okay.

[Faisal Islam]

No one noticed.

[Adam Fleming]

This is the reality of the day. We've had four seasons in one day. We might have had two Prime Ministers in one day. We're now celebrating Christmas early or very late, depending on how you look at it.

[Faisal Islam]

It's Christmas for You lot, well, you political obsessive.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean Nick Robinson on the Today program said you shouldn't accuse political journalists of wanting it to be Christmas. Faisal, just. If we just pause the narrative of the day there, what, what effect does this have on what I was joking about the bond markets there. But like all this instability, even if actually nothing has happened, does have an impact on how much it costs the government to borrow money, of which it does a lot.

[Faisal Islam]

It does. But something very interesting happened today. Right, so it started the day and I. So I can map onto Chris's narrative here. What happened was the effective borrowing rate, the gilt yield, as we call it, fell quite sharply on opening. There was an assumption that, oh look, the Prime Minister is actually probably safe here. Then when you heard the rumors drop about where streeting up, it went again. Now it's interesting, I don't think the bond markets particularly like, dislike we're streeting, but that's the uncertainty and they certainly

[Adam Fleming]

don't know any more than anyone else.

[Faisal Islam]

But they don't know any more than anyone else. And then we actually, and we can explore this. We don't actually know what West Streeting's policy platform is. He's talked about the Customs Union, we don't know if he's going to borrow more money and that's the principal thing. We don't know how, you know, who he'd point as his Chancellor and all

[Adam Fleming]

that sort of stuff.

[Faisal Islam]

So. So there's a lot of guesswork going on. Whereas your ab. I think the implication of your question is is that some sort of divine wisdom is accorded to the bond markets. Whereas actually a lot of the people standing in down street probably knew a lot, a lot more so that then it went up again when it looked like there definitely would be a challenge. And I think that's where we were and. And those extraordinary scenes of split screen notion of it happening whilst His Majesty was walking between walking into the. Into the Lords and onto his throne. And then it came down again and then I just got the impression and I stood around with my colleagues on BBC business and it just sort of started going down. So in other words, calming for no apparent reason. So it's almost as if this afternoon everyone just gave up and said nobody knows what is happening here. And then even if you knew factually where this was going, the process, there's still many different outcomes with many different potential fiscal outcomes. But in general you're right, the uncertainty is not great. Where it could lead creates some questions that are being asked. It's not panic stations in the market, but there's warning sort of signals coming out that whomever may want to take over might want to address them. I'll just put it like that.

[Adam Fleming]

We'll come on to that in a second. But Chris Faisal's point that he was just making, there is one that's being made as we record by the Prime Minister in Parliament as he wanders around speaking to his colleagues, isn't it?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. So he was obviously in Parliament for the King's speech, and then there was the Commons debate that followed in the afternoon. And then after that, he went to his parliamentary office and had ministers and MPs in to see him and supportive Cabinet ministers in the tea Room as well. And the argument that he is making is that, in essence, he is making the case that he's been the political antidote to chaos. That was the argument that he made when he railed against what he saw was the chaos of the latte is the Conservative government. And he sees the prospect of. Not even the prospect, because we've seen it in the last couple of days. He sees all this stuff about the Labour leadership as being utterly chaotic, utterly irresponsible, having real world consequences. And then he's saying to his MPs, and look, if we end up in a contest, firstly, he's doubling down on the idea that he himself would stand. And secondly, he's saying, look, this would be a handful of months over the summer when there's a lot at stake domestically and internationally. Inevitably, it would mean the government was paralyzed. This is his argument. And usually because it's the nature of leadership races, parties sort of. Sort of eat themselves in public because there's an argument about what it is to be labor in the same way that what it is to be a Conservative is a thing when there's a Tory leadership race. So I think it's twofold, that argument. One is, how many MPs can he put off endorsing Wes Streeting or indeed anybody else, if we get to the point of a contest? And then secondly, making an argument about his determination. And I'd say from, you know, of all of the character traits that are often thrown in the direction of the Prime Minister in some of the kind of profiles, sometimes the caricatures, if you like, something that is often underappreciated, is that kind of determination and ruthlessness. And the thing he's projecting, at least tonight, is that he's in there for the scrap.

[Adam Fleming]

Right. I've massively scrambled the Timeline now. So let's go back to our linear timeline of what's been happening today on Wednesday. So we've had Wes Streeting going into number 10 Downing street for his Non Lungo coffee. So it was short. Lots of speculation about what Wes Streeting will do next. But then kind of the formal bit of the day kicked off with the state opening of Parliament. So the coach and the Crown traveling down from Buckingham palace. And then the two plot lines got smushed together when Black Rod, the Parliamentary official who walks from the Lords down the corridor to the House of commons to summon MPs to come and listen to the King read out the King's speech in the House of Lords, bangs his rod on the door of Parliament. Now, in the old days, Dennis Skinner, the Labour backbencher, would make a joke about how much he didn't like the Royal Family. Today, some wag made a joke about all of this. Not now, andy. Not now, Andy. We think the mp, Torquill Crichton said.

[Faisal Islam]

A former journalist.

[Adam Fleming]

A former journalist. Very effective journalist. But, yeah, so, Chris, that was just one of those moments where, yeah, the two plot lines collided.

[Chris Mason]

Yes. I think he might have hoped for a bit of a bigger laugh among Stonepedes. I thought it was a good gag, though.

[Faisal Islam]

Yeah, Bit practiced, maybe.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, sorry, Bit practiced maybe, Maybe, maybe. But, you know, to deliver a sort of one liner, three words and get it just right. Yeah, I thought it was a decent. A decent gag, that.

[Adam Fleming]

And then the other kind of tradition of that is when the MPs all then troop down the corridor and all eyes were on Keir Starmer to see, like, just how he would look as like a person in the midst of all of this. And then further down the line, people were looking to see how. Where Streeting was behaving as he was mingling with his colleagues, both in the Cabinet and the back benches, and also his opposite numbers. What was your take on the. The walk of. Not the walk of. What could we call it?

[Chris Mason]

It's the sort of walk of awkwardness, maybe because it's, you know, look. You know, of course, MPs across the House and across political divides have chats in corridors the whole time, but this is a sort of.

[Adam Fleming]

It's like Steadicam following the.

[Chris Mason]

Well, no, exactly. It's a sort of formalized informality, is, you know, look like you've got to shoot the breeze with your political opposite number for about, I don't know, a minute or so as you walk down the corridor. But as you say, with a Camera in your face. With Britain's premier lip readers deployed to try and decode what's being talked about. I think from what I've heard of the exchanges between the Prime Minister and Cami Badenot, the Conservative leader, I think they were talking about Prime Minister's question time and the nature of how you try and make an argument there and how you've got to be quite brutal. I think that was the gist of it from what they were talking about. And of course at the moment, I mean, that's always a bit of a, a bit of a sport on, on a King's Speech day to try and work out what they're talking about and look at the body language. But obviously today the other character, central character, was worse streeting and, and there was some, there's some still images of him leaning against the speaker's chair and all the rest of it. And those images were flying around on social media. The thing I'm always conscious of in these moments, and it's right that we do this, but there's a danger of projecting too much onto anything. Start looking at absolutely everything and anything through the prism of a, you know, a contest or plotting or whatever.

[Adam Fleming]

And even walking.

[Chris Mason]

Well, yes, no, exactly, exactly. And of course you do that because that's what we're, you know, paid observers should be sort of scrutinized.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, we're constantly looking for clues and looking.

[Chris Mason]

But sometimes it, you know, maybe we can collectively be guilty of a sort of over interpretation of something that is fairly everyday and they'd be doing all the time.

[Adam Fleming]

Then we get onto the actual substance or what would be the substance of this day if it was normal political times, which is the sovereign reading out the 30ish pieces of legislation that the government is going to try and pass in this session of Parliament. Faisal. It comes with a huge big briefing pack of what all the bits of legislation are. Should we talk about some of the things the government wants to do? What caught your eye from the bundle?

[Faisal Islam]

Well, there was a lot of sort of technical plumbing of the economy. Kind of quite typical, if starmerism is anything. It's. They're trying to sort of deal with all these things that should in medium term, long term, help productivity and help growth, but maybe lack a sort of headline quality. And there's quite a lot of bills like that, whether it's in competition policy or creating, forgive me, regulatory sandboxes or.

[Chris Mason]

Hang on, hang on. You can't just glide over that.

[Faisal Islam]

Okay. Regularly. Okay. Basically a sort of safe space. I'LL put it like that, where a tech company can experiment with lower regulation.

[Chris Mason]

Okay.

[Faisal Islam]

Even then you're not entirely sure what their instincts are because they say, this is not deregulation. There's like a big sentence in there. You're like, well, what are you trying to do then? It's almost like they try and they try and lean in a direction and they say, oh, no, we don't really want to do that because it might scare some other people over there. You get a sense of that. I mean, there was the Northern Powerhouse Rail bit with an amusing endorsement from one Andy Burnham in. In the quotes, in the pack. There was some road building stuff. There was stuff missing. Things like welfare, the welfare bill, you know, they're not going at that. If they're going to have a serious go at that at any point, it will need legislation. Universal credit changes require legislation. For me, I think the standout, in terms of its potential ongoing impact, bleeding into the politics of the general election and the potential divides that we saw in local election, is the European Partnership Bill, which used to be called the Dynamic Alignment Bill, some will say, well, the actual economic impact right now will be.

[Adam Fleming]

So this is the legislation that will have to go through Parliament, which will then allow ministers to implement what they end up agreeing with the EU as part of their, quote, unquote, reset.

[Faisal Islam]

Yes. So the negotiations going on, this will put it into law, but it will also, to go back to your Brexit casting days, create some sort of conduit of EU law, because it's got to be dynamic. So as European law changes, UK law. Now, obviously, if we were in a different world, if we were in the sort of, you know, the Conservative era, this would be like a giant story and we'd be talking to Bill Cash and that sort of stuff. Obviously, in the Labor World of 400 MPS, it's not that controversial, but maybe there will be some internal battles over how fast they go on this. The str. The thing I'm interested in is, and I think I had it confirmed, is the structure which is designed for the three things they are negotiating on, which were in the manifesto. A food deal, energy trading, sorry, emissions trading and electricity. You can then redeploy that for other areas of alignment with the single.

[Adam Fleming]

They're giving themselves the tools to then sort of graft on extra things that they negotiate in future, which is what

[Faisal Islam]

Keir Starmer and the Chancellor have been saying that they want to do, which is a lean. I know Chris will have a. It's a lean into the sort of domestic politics of the Labour Party potentially, but then becomes quite interesting in any leadership challenge as to whether anybody, a Burnham or a Streeting, how far do they go in this direction? And then does it become a fundamental divide of a different type of General election come 2028? Labor manifesto and the like, Are we leading up to an argument about essentially, in a Labor manifesto, effectively rejoining the single market?

[Adam Fleming]

The sentence that caught my eye in that section of this big King's Speech document in that. In that bit about the EU alignment, is a sentence saying, oh, and the mechanisms by which the UK will shape these bits of EU rulemaking. And I thought that was really intriguing because will that be a sort of classic thing you've got to do in Britain to make it look like we've still got some sovereignty here, even though the rules are being made in Brussels? Or actually, are we going to see something quite innovative about how the UK and the EU will work together on these things in future? The sort of. Which would. Would never have happened in the. In the Brexit era, but maybe could happen now in this new world where actually they both feel they have to get closer together.

[Faisal Islam]

If, if. But then they might look at British politics and think, well, whatever, free pass or cake, as they used to call it, we would be willing to give a Labour government, how long are they going to be around?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Faisal Islam]

And so let's have a look at the local assumptions.

[Adam Fleming]

Some cooperation might get dialed down now. Yeah. Chris, what's your take on the. On the huge big pile of new laws that we got?

[Chris Mason]

So just picking up on the conversation about the European Union, and this would be true irrespective of what's happened in the last few days, but is perhaps doubly so in the context of all of the. The swirl at the moment is that, you know, making broadly pro European noises within the Labour movement. This might be rather different from wider electorates, but. Well, the Labour Party can make an argument to its members around closer alignment with the European Union. And broadly speaking, that is something of a binding agent. You also get those within the party who make an argument that when you look at opinion polls now, particularly on the whole question of. Of Brexit, there is quite a lot of skepticism when the question is asked about the extent to which it has delivered what many promise that it would, and you have some sort of outriders within the Labour movement making an argument, Sir Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, is one of them, that by the time of the general election, Labour should go into that Contest, he has argued, promising to rejoin the European Union. Now, that's the sort of outermost position, if you like, before that might be an argument to come about what Labour promises in a manifesto relating to, say, the Customs Union or the single market. Now, the Prime Minister's argument is that what he seeks to achieve is within the red lines that were set out in the last manifesto. So not going back into the Customs Union, the single market or freedom of movement. We've heard worse streeting in the past talk about the merits of the Customs Union. So I think there is a willingness, an openness publicly, for Labour figures to talk about the European Union and the UK's settlement with the European Union to a degree that it certainly wasn't the case a couple of years ago, as we were counting down to the general election, where they kind of set their red lines, didn't talk about it hugely. And I think there was a collective sense then that reopening the whole question around Brexit was just something people didn't have an appetite for. Whereas I think they detect now. And it is something, as I say, that broadly the movement agrees with, that it's turf that they can venture towards, and the Prime Minister's really been leading into it in the last few weeks. That interview we did with Nick Robinson

[Adam Fleming]

on the Today programme, for instance, Faisal, another sentence that jumped out at me was the legislation about energy security and renewable energy, and it said, taking a more strategic approach to energy infrastructure, which made me think, oh, is that overriding the planning system to get pylons and things built?

[Faisal Islam]

Yeah, and people may be forgiven for thinking, well, weren't they already doing this? And there are some laws, there was an infrastructure bill passed past. And so I think it adds to that and it adds to the, what I call the plumbing of the system. You know, they've been in power for nearly two years now and it just takes a long time. Even though it's pretty, you know, it's clear that they want to build more energy infrastructure, it is clear that they want it to be green. It just hasn't happened as quickly. And the problem, if it doesn't happen, is that your attempts to revolutionize the energy system could just end up costing people more money rather than saving the money, which was the, the, the solemn promise. So they desperately need this to happen. Now, one of the challenges is that, is that, is that they were sailing with the wind when they came into office in terms of massive investments, wanting to go into energy. That's less the case now, you know, The. The. It's less in fashion globally. The Americans have turned away from it. So have they missed their. Have they missed a chance? Is this. Is this a little bit too late? But, yes, you're right. You know, they would love the private sector to come in and invest, and this is part of that. But things like the political. I think we can call it chaos. They don't. They don't help. And then this goes to the other question, which is, to what extent is this King's Speech? Would any incoming. Would any incoming leadership contender feel bound by it? Yeah, I mean, I don't know the answer to that question. I'm just.

[Adam Fleming]

And also, what. It adds to the sort of the surreal nature of this whole King Speech speech. Because, first of all, there's your point, Faisal, of. Well, there is a chance that someone else will be the Prime Minister who then has to pass all this legislation. And maybe it doesn't chime with what they want to do. That's completely theoretical at the moment. And then, of course, the other thing that sort of scrambles your mind about this is people might say, oh, this is full of stuff that the government's already announced. But that's what the King's Speech is, because the government announces things and then they actually have to go through the process of putting them in law, so they actually happen. And I'm just thinking things like tweaking the terrorism legend legislation so that you can be found guilty of just wanting to cause serious violence, even if you don't have a political cause for that, which is a really important change to the law of the land completely.

[Chris Mason]

So there's that, or you look at the plans that they have for shaking up policing in England and Wales. So abolishing police and crime commissioners, having fewer forces in England and Wales. We've heard that announcement, we've reported on that announcement. But obviously, in order to do it, you've got to change the law. And so along comes a bill in order to do that. On that point, Faisal, you were making there around. And it's fascinating, and there's no clear answer, obviously, at this stage, but what any future leader might do with this pack of 37 bills, when they would have to, whoever they were, if there was somebody other than Keir Starmer as Prime Minister, where they would have to walk the tightrope of winning an argument that says that they are sufficiently different and distinctive in both character and policy from the guy who went before in order to win that race, while simultaneously being hit daily by political critics who will say, you haven't got a mandate, you didn't win the general election, et cetera, et cetera. And then, at least to a degree, leaning on, well, I am attempting to implement the manifesto that we were elected on in 2024, whilst no doubt including a splash of. But times have changed since then and blah, blah, blah. And that's, that's the tricky political line that any future Labour leader will have to walk.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, so that's our rapid fire roundup of the King's Speech and that gives us a bit of a roadmap for what will be happening in Parliament in the next few months or years maybe. So let's go back to what was happening today. So then there's lots of tradition around the King's Speech in Parliament. You get some backbenchers doing quite funny speeches. And I listened to Naz Shah, the Labour backbencher, she was actually very, very funny. Then Kemi Badenoch was quite harsh on Keir Starmer and the chaos as she perceives it on the Labour front bench. And then we heard from Keir Starmer and if you listen to this, you'd think this is a person without a care in the world.

[Keir Starmer]

Let me also thank the Leader of the Opposition for the usual warm and generous nature of her contribution. In difficult days. Her input is always a ray of sunshine. I particularly getting tips from her on how to win friends. This is for Nicholson, Mr. Speaker, who previously called us Orcs and goons. Mr. Speaker, I am a gooner and so as usual, she is less than half right.

[Adam Fleming]

So a little Arsenal joke there and then. Chris, you've got. Yeah. Somebody who is fighting for their political life, sounding quite chilled and all his colleagues, many of whom want him to leave the job, cheering him on when he makes a joke.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. It's always interesting in these moments when the emotions are quite fraught. It goes back to what I was saying about folk last night when I was making my way to Downing Street. When emotions are quite fraught, when the humor can be quite black, it can be quite self deprecating. I think it can be quite a relief actually, for those who find themselves in the thick of it, as the Prime Minister clearly does at the moment in terms of his own future, to sort of send themselves up a little bit, particularly in the context of this debate, where certainly in its opening exchanges does have a certain, a certain levity to it.

[Adam Fleming]

It's more like an after dinner speech, after the King speech, isn't it? Right. I mean, I think we've sort of covered most of the day. Which leaves us with what's going to happen next?

[Chris Mason]

Well, well, yeah, I mean, here we go. I mean I was just talking to Jane Hill on the 6 o' clock news and she said what's the effect of. And perfectly reasonable question this, but our big day today and another one tomorrow, which has been an entirely reasonable question for about the last week, every single day. So look, as we record, there's a massive decision for Wes treating to make, you know, A, going for it or not and then B, as his friends anticipate that he does. When do you do it? And you know, politically it does feel like time is of the essence in terms of momentum and critics suggesting he's a bottler and all that kind of stuff getting thrown around and then if he does it, the tone, the tenor, the manner, the location, the words that he chooses around all of that, because that will be crucially important when his critics are already throwing back at him that he is, you know, the author of chaos, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then how do others respond? Do we see others coming to the wicket straight away and who are they? What does the Prime Minister say? And maybe it doesn't happen tomorrow. What happens if it doesn't happen tomorrow? And then you get a story about, well, what's happened to him, has he not got the numbers, et cetera, et cetera. So it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be fascinating. 24 hours.

[Adam Fleming]

But the reason there's so much heat around the idea that Wes Streeting might announce his leadership challenge on Thursday is because allies and friends of Wes treating have been suggesting that that's what's going to happen.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. Oh, completely.

[Adam Fleming]

It's not just us going, oh, can we move this long, please?

[Chris Mason]

No, no, no. To be absolutely clear, that is exactly what his friends and allies expect to expect to happen. And you know, things can change last minute things can change, etc, etc, some people are willing it to happen which isn't always quite the same as expecting it to happen. But yeah, that is the, that is the, the expectation. So we wait to see what happens.

[Faisal Islam]

Well, well, can I put an argument in, in here, Chris? I'd love to know, I'd love to know what you think, which is it isn't just about the personnel and the policies in this, whatever this process is the man, what we, what we were taught under the Tory years. It's the, it's the manner of any victory really matters in terms of the postmatch stability of any government.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Faisal Islam]

And certainly if you're the bond markets which matter. So you could have, say we're streeting and he could win. But if he wins in a way that alienates what is broadly called the

[Adam Fleming]

soft layer, because he then can't get anything through as totally unst.

[Faisal Islam]

And even if he has the most austere, like economic Nobel Prize winning genius as Chancellor, it's not going to work because he won't be able to command that majority or he won't be able to tell everybody convincingly when his Chancellor stands up, that these policies will get through Parliament. So that part of the piece, so if you like a sort of relatively peaceful transition is as important as the name of the personnel. And so one argument, and then there's a piece of technical piece of which I didn't realize, which was someone saying to me, this is not like the 1922 committee where everything is done anonymously. So it's a much more skullduggery amongst the Conservatives. There's a certain amount. You have to do this slightly publicly. You have to go to an office and get a form. Is this right? And then. And then it's all.

[Adam Fleming]

And all the nominee, the 81 nominees, all those names are published.

[Faisal Islam]

There's a different dynamic here to what

[Chris Mason]

we've been sort of massively so. So, you know, the Conservative process is all about uncertainty and anonymity, because you can put in a letter to the 1922 committee chairman, anonymous, so your identity is protected in so doing. And the only person who knows how many letters are there is the person in question. And then you got into, and you'll remember this from the last few years, the whole torture of people saying, I'm thinking of writing a letter, I've written a letter, it's in my top drawer, but I've not sent it, I've put a letter in. And then even folk who say, I've put a letter in, but now I'm

[Adam Fleming]

took it back out again.

[Chris Mason]

Exactly. And the only thing that matters is the number sitting in his pocket or his desk drawer or whatever, his email simultaneously. And then it's reaching the magic percentage. For Labour, the bar is much higher, much higher, for two reasons. One, you've got to be public. And two, the threshold is people behind one candidate not reaching a threshold that triggers a process into which candidates can enter. So it's much, much higher. And at this stage, at least part of the lobbying from the Prime Minister's allies is trying to put people off to see if they can see if they can get that Number low enough that it's not possible for him to go for it. But I totally agree, Faisal, about that point, about the manner, the manner of a victory, and there's arguably a trade off here between an argument from some that would say, crack on with this. And this is the argument you hear from some of my streeting supporters. Crack on with this, because instability is bad. And look at just the market wobbles in the last few days, et cetera, et cetera. Imagine this goes on for ages. And that's effectively an argument argument. I'm not dismissing its authenticity for that reason, but it's also an argument about trying to ensure that Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, doesn't have time to come back and fight a seat and all the rest of it. But of course, there's that counter argument that if you do something very quickly, or it's felt that a wing of the party has been excluded for whatever reason because their most valuable option isn't on the ticket or whatever, then where does it leave the stability of an incoming New Labour administration, which is already pretty fractious in delivering the agenda of a new Prime Minister? It's absolutely live question and just a

[Adam Fleming]

reminder for a Labour leadership contest, as we were just saying, a person has to get 81 nominations from Labour backbenchers to trigger the contest, and then the incumbent Prime Minister is automatically included in that contest. They do not have to go out and get 81 nominations themselves. And, Chris, just before we go, because it's now 70 minutes past seven, two other stories bubbling under the last couple of days. Nigel Farage is going to be investigated by the Parliamentary Standards commissioner over that 5 million pound gift he got from the cryptocurrency and other things millionaire before he was an mp.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Adam Fleming]

And Zach Polanski, leader of the Greens in England and Wales, turns out the houseboat he was living on, he hadn't paid the right council tax for it.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. And this is what scrutiny looks like. Whatever you, you know, whatever political party you run, particularly if you start winning elections and being prominent and therefore you're held to account. And we're seeing that with both Mr. Farage and Mr. Polanski right now. And both of these stories this week, in a different political week, both of these stories would have been top political stories. Who knows where they would have been relative to other news in the world, et cetera, et cetera. But these are the stories that would have been top of the Westminster agenda, Both yesterday with Mr. Polanski and today with Mr. Farage. Obviously overtaken by, by the King's Speech and Labour's travails and the Prime Minister, etc. Etc. But both, both difficult moments for those two leaders and also stories that are not over yet. Particularly I think, the, the investigation into. Into Nigel Farage.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, that's all for this extra lungo episode of Newscast. Chris, thank you very much. And Faisal, Merry Christmas.

[Faisal Islam]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

And we'll be back with another newscast very soon. Who knows what will happen between this one and the next next.

[Chris Mason]

Bye bye Tua.

[Faisal Islam]

Happy New Year.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast. Newscast from the BBC.

[Podcast Producer]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on [phone]. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.

[Asma Khalid]

Britbox has the best of British tv period. Well, let's get started. The best myst.

[Chris Mason]

I like a good detective story.

[Asma Khalid]

The best romance, period.

[Adam Fleming]

This is the book that will open the heart. Ms. Mary Bennett.

[Asma Khalid]

The best drama period. Welcome to the grown up world stream. The best British period dramas, including the Lady Inspired by a True story of Murder and Scandal. And from the world of Jane Austen, the other Bennett sister. Only on Britbox. Start your free [e-mail].