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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. If you are currently overpaying on software to run your business, remember this number 10,000. That's the number of new businesses that join Odoo per month. Join odoo today@odoo.com that's odoo.com. ever wonder why we make the choices we do and how to make smarter ones? Introducing Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join Wharton Professor Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. Each episode covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings and why starting over can feel so hard. Listen to Choiceologywab.com podcast or wherever you listen.
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Hello.
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C
This is your first episode of Newscast coming from the Edinburgh Fringe 2026, which means we're joined by lots of friends of Newscast. So nice of them to come and watch us and very nice of you to listen to what we're doing, but we're going to do a classic episode of Newscast. We tried that experiment where we got grumpy actors to come on and talk about their shows. It didn't go hugely well. We thought let's just stick to what we're good at, which is talking about the news with our friends who cover the news every day. And so keeping me company on the stage for this episode of Newscast two very good friends of the podcast. First of all, please welcome, all the way from the US of A, Katrina Perry.
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B
Hi. Hello.
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C
Hello.
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D
In real life.
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C
In real life, not separated by thousands of miles. Also, quite often when we record newscasts, there's a delay on the line between our studios. Should we recreate that? Hi, Katrina.
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D
Hi, Adam.
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C
It must be really exciting where you are.
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D
Yes, yes, it is.
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C
The main thing is we edit those bits out of the actual podcast.
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B
Right.
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C
Shall we invite someone else onto the stage? Joining us from Westminster, it's political correspondent Joe Pike. Hello, Joe. Oh, hello.
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B
Hi, Adam.
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C
Not to invade Joe's privacy, but he's been here at the Fringe for a couple of days already. You wanted to know what I was going to say there. So you've already got that sort of like long distance stare that people have who've been to like 200 shows not eaten properly.
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B
I've got all the recommendations you need, but I've seen a lot of stand up comedy, some amazing, some less so, but some of it's been good.
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C
Also, Katrina and I had a bit of a conversation about what the dress code was and I said, just come really cash and you come dress for the White House.
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D
This is my casual Monday. What can I say?
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C
When's Labor Day? Is that when you can't. Is that when you stop wearing white?
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D
No wearing suits yet. Barack Obama, obviously, if anyone remembers that, famously got in trouble for wearing a tan colored suit after Labor Day, which is the first Monday in September. This was a major presidential scandal.
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C
Yes. In those more naive days, that was
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D
the level of presidential scandal.
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C
Right, shall I tell everyone what we're going to do on this episode? Also gives you a bit of a heads up of what, what I'm going to be asking you. So we're going to talk about the latest about the early release scheme for prisoners in England and Wales and the controversy around that. Then we're going to talk to Joe about Andy Burnham, who's also going on tour. It's not just newscast doing a tour. I wonder who's will be more popular. Then there's a bit of an update on the Middle east and then a really interesting story about a guy in Ireland who's accused of being a big crime boss. And that's a big kind of international crime story in Ireland that has made headlines all around the world. So that is what we will do on this episode. Coming to you from the Edinburgh fringe
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of newscast, newscast, newscast from the BBC,
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humanity's next great voyage begins.
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You know, I like my buses. I'll come on to them. I see that he was, I guess,
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the mayor of a town.
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C
Ooh la.
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Thinking about it like a panto helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?
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D
And what will you do?
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B
Stare at a wall?
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Hello, it's Adam on the newscast stage.
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Hello, it's Katrina on the newscast stage.
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And Jo's here too.
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D
Hi.
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C
And we're joined by lots of newscasters who come to visit us here in Edinburgh. Thanks for coming.
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B
Right.
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C
Loads to talk about in the news. Because actually, as usual, that whole idea that August is a quiet month for the news, which I actually think never really existed, really.
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B
A lot of international stories, challenges, wars,
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C
plenty to talk about. But actually, Joe, I know you wanted to talk about something that is very close to people in this city right now. Edinburgh's tourist tax.
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B
Yes. Which has come into force just a few weeks ago. A 5% levy, some of you may know, on stays in Edinburgh, the council just introduced it. Controversial with some, because if you're on a sort of a budget venue or you're on a budget trip, obviously it's adding extra costs, but. But the argument from the council is that if you are a local in Edinburgh, as I was in the city for seven years, the festival, of course, brings income and the arts and people like you, Adam, but also it does boxers from Glasgow. That too, but also it can be international people especially, but it can also be, at points, frustrating. And a lot of time and money goes into catering for all these people who rush to the city for the world's biggest arts Festival for 30 days or so. So it's a way of trying to ensure that people who live here get something back.
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I actually managed to cut my finger in between checking into the hotel and getting to my room. I was like, wow, this tourist tax, I was like, how do you pay for it? In blood.
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B
Wow.
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D
Right, you are glad you came to hear about Adam cutting his fingers of the day.
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C
I'm trying to explain the horrible blue plaster. I've got that you can see. Right, let's talk about some kind of more national news, then. And so, Joe, you and I have talked about this quite a few times in the last few weeks. This early. Well, actually, it's been the last years because, like, the Starmer government had to do this as well, releasing prisoners from earlier in their sentence to relieve the overcrowding in English and Welsh jails. Two of the people who are due to be released early next year were jailed for the manslaughter of PC Andrew Harper, who was killed in 2019 when he was dragged behind the car somebody they knew was driving. The government sort of try to do a definitive thing today to end the controversy around that bit of the policy.
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B
It seems to be an attempt to do that. Some would argue. Why didn't they do this a few days ago if this was something they were able to do? But because it's Monday and parliamentary recess, the Prime Minister's official spokesperson does a briefing once a week for the lobby. And the spokesperson today has basically told journalists that it's not possible to. To change the scheme purely for two people. For the two people in this case, it wouldn't be, I don't think, legally possible for two people to be excluded from the early release scheme. But also they have pointed out that there is not a specific offence of the manslaughter of an emergency worker that is not a standalone offence, because there has been that campaign in recent days from both the Peace and Crime Commissioner in Thames Valley, the Chief Constable there, Andrew Harper's widow, his mother and a lot of his former colleagues in Thames Valley Police, for there to be some sort of change to stop these two men benefiting effectively from the early release scheme.
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And also there was some talk about, oh, I was reading in the Times today that could you consider the severity of the manslaughter? And when the judge says, oh, this is this category of manslaughter, could you use that as a criteria that then apply that criteria to the early release schemes so that some people could benefit from it? Other people were excluded, but it seems that civil servants have looked at that and they found out that not every judge makes that determination. So therefore, it's not necessarily a thing that you could apply to everyone because it would get challenged because it's not
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B
fair and because of your very emotive nature of this case and the horrific nature of Andrew Harper's death and the fact it came, what, just a month after his wedding to his childhood sweethearts, before their honeymoon. It was a story that captured the public's attention at the time, and therefore it was such a key part of the sort of story and narrative around this policy. You'd assume that those in government looked at maybe having some form of opt out a week and a half ago when they did the first sort of series of opt outs for rape and for some grooming and serious child sexual offences. But it's arguably maybe a little bit of an error on the part of the Bernie administration that they haven't tried to stop this narrative a bit earlier. Maybe today is their attempt to try and make the argument. The really difficult argument to say, look, there's nothing really we can do. Because their modeling, understand, is that if you take manslaughter, this early release game, you're talking maybe about 900 prisoners and we're talking about a prison population of around 85,000. Actually, 900 is quite a significant amount.
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C
Now, on a totally different note, Katrina, do you have any subscriptions that you've discovered recently that you were paying for that you didn't know you had many,
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many, many newscast from BBC Science. That one's free, so that's okay. No, I am. I'm a bit of a demon for signing up for the free trial for stuff and then setting an alarm on my phone to cancel it.
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C
Oh, me too. Have you not do this?
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Not canceling it. The alarm goes off and he hits snooze, as I do automatically anytime my alarm goes off. And then realizing three Months later or a year later. Oh my gosh, where's all my money gone? It's gone on some magazine or some video service or something you don't even use anymore.
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C
Well, Andy Burnham has got news for you. If you lived in the uk, but you live in America. But that was my attempt to segue into the other political story today. And this is the story, Joe, that the government wants to be be telling, which is more help for the cost of living. Another contribution to what they describe as the breathing space before Andy Burnham comes out with his big plan for the British economy for the next 10 years. And it's related to kind of little niggles, my words, not theirs. Like Katrina's uncancelled trial subscription to various things.
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B
He wants to make it easier to cancel subscriptions, but also there to be more warnings around those auto renews that essentially, especially the higher price that I'm sure a lot of us have been trapped in. If you haven't set that alarm, is Andy Burnham trying to rebrand himself as a sort of Martin Lewis money saving expert? Because it is sort of, it is like consumer champion type stuff, which doesn't obviously cost, which seems a bit like
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small potatoes to professional political journalists and so sometimes attracts maybe a bit of cynicism because it's not like saving a billion pounds here or spending two billion pounds. There's.
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B
But it can, I suppose, what he knows and what his team knows, if you look at the issues that matter to people, cost of living is near the top and that's why they've had the VAT cut on energy bills for six months. That's why we've got this bus fare cap, the £2 cap. That's why he wants to talk about subscriptions, of course, because you've got the budget coming up in October and there's not a lot of money. Of course he seems to be leaning towards things that are cheap or free, but I suppose it is part of him introducing himself to voters because okay, newscasters, especially those here, will be aware of Andy Burnham, but there are lots of people I speak to when you vox popping people on the street who aren't really aware that there's been a change in government, partly because there hasn't been general election, partly because there hasn't been really any. Well, there hasn't been a leadership contest, has there? This new Prime Minister has arrived. First impressions count. If your first impression is bad, obviously that's not great as any politician and Therefore everything number 10 seems to be wanting to talk about at the moment is around cost of living, painting him as a cost of living champion who understands your problems and your issues. Even though a lot of the stories which are making headlines that people seemingly are getting frustrated about are about things like early release.
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So I'm an elite level canceller. So I set multiple alarms because I. Well, no, it's because I don't have enough money. That's why I'm showing off about not having enough money. The thing that really annoys me is when you buy something and it then says, oh, as a special treat, here's three months free membership of insert name of streaming service. You're like, great, I'm going to get three months of Disney. And then you go on. I didn't hear that, I'm sorry. Oh, this is.
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D
Yeah, I didn't hear that either. Louder.
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C
And other streaming service. And then you go. And you're like, oh, no, this is only for new customers. You're a previous existing customer because you signed up 14 times in two week increments. So you're not getting it. So if they could take action on
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D
that, that would be great. Just use different email addresses. There's a pro tip for you.
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C
I love it. Most of my colleagues do that because they're doing investigative journalism.
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B
Some of these people. Some of these people have a. It's a phone. Have you ever had that? A phone number instead of you being able to click somewhere, it's like we actually got to phone our call center to cancel it. I have subscriptions to a lot of like.
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D
And then you're on hold for ages.
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B
Yeah, I have subscriptions to regional news sites or newspapers, especially sort of non national newspapers because they've got some. They've got their eye on some really interesting, maybe small but significant investigation that I'm really interested in. And then it is impossible to cancel. And a year later I'm still getting all the. I won't say who, but still getting all of those emails and it's hard to cancel. And I've. Maybe I should just set an alarm like you and. But really what I want is Andy Burnham to change the rules and make it a little bit easier for people who are disorganized like me.
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C
We've got this thing that we can put on the screen. I think I'm looking over at my colleague Chris, who I can see at the back there. It'll take two minutes. Wow, that's a lot of filling on my part. Let's save you from that. So while they're getting on with that behind the scenes, Trying to do this little bit of audience interaction. Joe and I can talk about Andy Burnham's cost of living tour he's going to do, because isn't he taking this idea on a bit like a roadshow this week? Am I already making it sound more glamorous than it really is?
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B
Maybe. Where is he going? I suppose the problem with being Prime Minister is the security restrictions around that means they can't really give us a poster with lots of different locations. They previously said he's going to Petalbert and he's going to, I suppose, probably every part of the uk. We don't really know yet where. There are going to be some cost announcements. We're not really sure what they are, but I suppose it's a way of him spending his time meeting different people and trying to sort of sell himself around the country.
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C
Katrina, has Andy Burnham made any kind of a splash in the US yet?
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No would probably be the short answer. But look, he's only a wet week in the job. Right.
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C
What does that mean?
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Do you not have that expression here?
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A wet week?
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No.
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C
What's a wet week?
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Like a short amount of time.
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Right, okay.
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I don't know. Every week in Ireland's a wet week. So I'm not actually sure. Not actually sure where that phrase comes from.
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C
Isn't that where we're going?
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D
A year, forever? He's only a wet week in the job. He's only a few days in the job. Well, a couple of weeks now. And I think from a US perspective, there has to be the Face off, you know, there has to be the leader to leader meeting with President Trump before there's a kind of wider interaction or awareness of, you know, because, as you say, there wasn't a big election year or a big leadership contest that would have grabbed headlines in other countries. We're obviously all very obsessed with it and watching the body language and the tweets and the remarks about windmills and whatnot. But I think once that happens, then there'll be more interest and kind of more awareness. And is he different to Sir Keir Starmer and is there a different approach? And, you know, crucially, what happens if their first meeting's in the Oval Office when they're all sitting around?
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C
No, Basically the reason the audience are laughing is because behind Katrina, as she was talking, my colleagues laptops are being projected and we're trying to get this voting tool.
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D
It's kind of high risk move, isn't it? Screen, screen. Sharing your laptop live in front of an audience.
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C
Bing. Notification, cancel your subscription, blah, blah, blah.
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B
Right.
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C
Okay. So we're asking the audience here, and this is related to what we were just talking a minute ago about the government's latest cost of living initiative, which is about making it easier to cancel subscriptions and identify if you've got one you don't want anymore. So we're asking the audience here, do you know how many subscriptions you have? That's a very technical question. And there's a QR code and the option is yes and the other option is no and they're going to get voting.
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D
Now, do you know how many you have?
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C
No, I don't know. That's why I'm not sure.
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D
Dodos of etude.
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B
But also it's not, it's not just, I think it's some of the other services, is it, it might be a news provider, it might be that app that you use for, I don't know, fitness or you use for productivity or you use, you know, there are so many different things in different parts of your life, which means it's quite hard to keep track of.
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D
Yeah.
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B
So there are obviously some smug people who in this audience do know.
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D
Yeah, that's impressive.
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B
I think that I'd say about 2/3
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of people say yes. They don't know how many subscriptions they have. About one third say no. I'd say that's a sizable minority though. In the nose.
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B
I'm really surprised. I'm really surprised.
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C
In what direction?
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B
Well, maybe because they are here at the Edinburgh Festival. These are organized people. They have their diaries together. They are seeing lots of fringe shows and they're coming to see because of course this did sell out very quickly. So I suppose it's a self selecting group of busy bodies and organized people. Right, let's damage.
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D
Does the ticket auto renew for next year? That's the key question.
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C
Oh no, sorry. It's not a lifetime subscription to newscasts coming here. Although, let's see. Right, let's move on to international affairs now on the big screen, the people here in the theater are going to see Ed Miliband, the still fairly new Foreign secretary, meeting his U.S. counterpart, Secretary of State Marco Rubio. And we're going to listen to it and listen out to the shout out that comes from James Matthews, the sky journalist.
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B
Mr. Miliband, do you still think the President is an idiot, a racist?
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C
So do you still hold a limited view on the President? He doesn't count for you.
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B
Just as looking forward to our meeting.
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C
Of course we're going to. What kind of Question, Are we going
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to be talking about Ukraine?
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C
Of course it's going to come up. I think that in intergalactic affairs and all kinds of other things. All right, guys, thank you. There we go. And for those of you who couldn't see this clip on the big screen that was basically Ed Miliband styling out his previous comments about Donald Trump. I think he made what back in 2016, Joe, it was not sounds about right.
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B
But of course, Marco Rubio and of course, JD Vance have also said things that they've maybe changed their public opinions on in terms of their views of Donald Trump. And Donald Trump likes more than anything else a convert. So if he's being complimented by Ed Miliband, I'm sure that'll be keep them on side for now.
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C
Katrina, you must have seen that routine so many times where people just have to come and grip and grin and forget what they said.
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D
Yeah. I mean, it happened so many times in the first Trump administration. And now again with world leaders who maybe were in opposition and find themselves in positions of power and they're having to do that extremely long and awkward handshake and smile and pretend you can't hear the questions. I mean, it's happened so many leaders, particularly those coming from Western Europe, who perhaps many would at least during the first Trump administration. Obviously, European politics have changed a bit in the intervening 10 years, but who would not align themselves with the Trump administration. I want to know what they were talking about in terms of the intergalactic affairs. It's like first we take Greenland and then we take the stars. You know, what's that going to be all about? That's the real juice of that clip, I think.
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C
Although I do wonder, though, because before Ed Miliband got or just when he was getting the job of foreign secretary, there was quite a lot of briefing coming from Washington. And some people sort of attributed it to it to Trump world in a way that actually he was not going to be a great person to choose as the foreign secretary because he was so identified with the net zero agenda and the windmills that Donald Trump hates. What's your take on just kind of that phenomenon?
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D
There's a lot of chatter about that in Washington. I would say a lot of it probably comes from from the British media in Washington as well, and their sort of fears about that he would be too lefty because there's almost no worse words you can say in Washington or in the Trump administration than left or liberal. They're dirty words right now. And that this would kind of cost the UK capital in terms of these initial few meetings. And you want things to be going well and smiles and handshakes and talk of taking over the stars and whatever. But actually, I think so much of the interaction is President Trump to the Prime Minister whenever they do meet, that actually that it kind of matters less in a way that, you know, he. So much policy is from the top down in ways that we didn't see with past administrations, Republican or Democrat. In even the first Trump administration, there was a lot more sort of delineation between the departments, which we just don't see now. So I think that's the sort of really important relationship. And in Trump world, there was a lot of praise for the first conversation that the Prime Minister and President had on the phone about drilling and so on, and kind of a lot of people saying, oh, he's saying all the right things, and he's talking about going back to sort of industrial heartlands and, you know, bringing back jobs and all of these things that we've heard President Trump say for several cycles now.
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C
What is your take on Donald Trump's obsession with wind turbines in Britain? Is it just because there's like two very next very near one of his golf courses?
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D
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the. That's the start and end of the answer, really. It is because of Turnberry and everything that he's had in Scotland. He has a property in Ireland as well, Doom Beg. And he had a lot of problems with the EU over environmental rules and sea snails and stuff. So whenever he hears the EU environmental rules, he always references Doombeg. And whenever he hears about windmills, he always references his properties in Scotland. And I think that is where it comes from, really, although he has now extrapolated that into various places in the US as well. But everything is personal for him. Everything is about a business deal. I mean, he's so transactional, whether it's economics or foreign policy, that everything comes back to his personal experience.
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C
And, Joe, it's going to be so interesting watching the Miliband Burnham relationship develop, because actually, some people would say Keir Starmer almost ended up being his own Foreign Secretary because whenever there was a meeting of the coalition of the willing with the French and the Germans and Ukrainians, Starmer was there hosting it. It wasn't his Foreign Secretary, it wasn't David Lammy or then Yvette Cooper. And I wonder if Andy Burnham sort of sticks with being the Prime Minister who focuses on the UK and subcontracts the foreign policy or like all previous prime ministers ends up getting drawn into the rest of the world.
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B
Well, I think this summer so far would show he doesn't necessarily want to copy the Keir Starmer model, the sort of never hear Kier model. His critics sort of use that phrase. But remember what the outgoing Prime Minister told Henry in that interview just before he left office, that he thought Andy Burnham should spend the same amount of time on foreign affairs as he did. Will that happen? I don't know. Ed Miliband is certainly somebody who has been around in politics and in Westminster and of course, lived in the US as well as a kid, so arguably has the skills to be left alone to do a lot of that. What I thought was fascinating about the first Rubio Miliband meeting there myself was the fact it took place in Washington. And that goes to the heart of the different way that the sort of Trump operation seems to work, partly because Rubio is not just Secretary of State, but also national Security adviser. But also. And I've been reading this regime change book you guys may have been reading, the Maggie Haberman Jonathan Swan book about the Trump White House. And it talked and actually took a photo of the page I thought was so interesting about how Donald Trump makes decisions so quickly that you cannot be a Secretary of State in a different country. You've got to not just be in Washington, but be in the White House. And it said Trump makes decisions so rapidly and with so little process that to be absent from the West Wing is not just to lose your chance to shape a policy, it's to lose your chance to know about it before the rest of the world knows about it. And that is why Marco Rubio is the Secretary of State with the least international travel than any other in decades, seemingly.
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C
I didn't actually know that book was out yet. You got like, a little.
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B
I just bought it in a bookshop. Oh, no, it's definitely out.
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D
It's a long time. I'd say it's like about two months, let's say.
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B
They've done all the interviews. You should read it. I'm really enjoying it. About halfway through.
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D
Oops.
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C
My subscription to the audiobook service that I didn't renew two months ago. Serious. How weird. What have I been reading instead? Right. Anyway, carrying on with international affairs, then. So, Katrina, I think last time you were on Newscast, we were on with Jeremy Bowen talking about Trump's plan for peace in Gaza and the fact that Hamas had finally signed up to it, and that was going to see Hamas promising to disarm and Then the Israelis would withdraw. And Donald Trump was very, very pleased about all of that because it was another great deal he thought he'd brokered. But then we learn over the weekend that one of the parties to that deal doesn't like it and it's Israel.
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D
Yeah, pretty key element there. And that, I mean, that was only about 10 days ago or so that we were having that conversation, and everything was. Seemed like there was progress being made. In fairness, Prime Minister Netanyahu did say at the time, you know, he didn't kind of. He wasn't on the record criticizing the deal, but he was like, we have to look at this. It wasn't running out singing and jazz hands the way the US Was, and Hamas agreeing to sign up to it. And what they have said now is, you know, the steps are out of order here. Basically, we're not going to withdraw until Hamas has fully disarmed. And Hamas has said, well, what we've agreed to is a sort of stepping stone situation where we disarm, you withdraw. It all happens at the same time. And there's international monitoring of what was agreed to at the ceasefire last October, much of which has actually not come into force. You know, part of that was that Israel was to cease its military operations. Clearly, that hasn't happened. About another thousand people or so have been killed since that ceasefire was supposedly declared. There's still problems, not to the same extent, but still problems with aid agencies and NGOs getting in the equipment that they need getting around. There's still millions of well over a million people living in camps. And, you know, all of the, again, NGOs would tell you disease is widespread and the conditions are still terrible. So it seems that we're at a point we haven't heard on the record from President Trump yet today that we're kind of gone back to square zero again.
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C
Although I was going to say maybe it's not square zero, because if we've learned anything from these things, it's that sometimes we think it's a bit all or nothing, but actually, this is probably two steps forward, one step back, which is still net forward one step. So we're moving not at square zero.
- [28:35]
D
But are you moving forward if conditions don't change at all for people there, for people living there, or for any progress being made? I mean, Prime Minister Netanyahu has been pretty categoric in that, you know, he's not going to be pulling back until Hamas is completely disarmed. It is black and white for him. Maybe what's at Play here is, you know, politics. And oh my gosh, how extraordinary that would be. But he's facing an election in a couple of months. Is it a case of I say no to this and get through that election and then if I lose, it's someone else's problem and if I win, I'll deal with it then? Maybe I'm too cynical, but Prime Minister Netanyahu was in Washington. Again. I lose track of days, but I think it was a week and a half ago. It was just before I left. I was there at the White House when he was there, had come to attend Senator Lindsey Graham's funeral and he had a reasonably lengthy meeting with President Trump behind closed doors, coming in the side door, none of the fanfare, very limited readout from the Americans in terms of what was discussed. So, you know, you just never know sort of what's going on behind the curtains that we don't, we're not privy to.
- [29:53]
B
Right.
- [29:53]
C
A totally different story now, but also one that you can talk about Katrina, because it's got a, a big Ireland focus. This family, the Kinahans, who are accused of running a big organized crime gang stretching across many countries. They're accused of importing drugs into lots of European countries. The sort of the son, Daniel Kinahan has been extradited to Ireland and appeared sort of in court with this massive police escort on Sunday. And it's a huge story in Ireland and becoming a big global story. Just explain why.
- [30:23]
D
Yeah, it's a huge story in Ireland. It's a pretty big story in the US as well and in the uae, which is where Daniel Kinahan had been living for some years. He's been charged now. He appeared in the special criminal court in Ireland on Sunday night, which is a non jury court. Three judges, extreme security. The Irish prison service actually purchased a new bomb proof everything proof van. He was flown on this extradition flight on the government jet with all of the security you can imagine that goes along with that into court last night and charged with directing an organized crime gang. The Americans have been involved in this. He, his brother, his father and many of their associates had sanctions placed on them in 2022, 23, thereabouts. There was a 5 million dollar bounty on his head and on his family members head leaving for anyone with information leading to their arrest. And basically they're accused. He would say he has never been charged or found guilty of anything and also says he doesn't think he's going to get a fair trial under the circumstances. They're accused of running a global, huge drug cartel in line with some of the worst drug cartels from Mexico and various other places. And basically at one point in Ireland, in Dublin city centre, it was kind of, you know, people refer to it as the Wild west at one point because these guys were from the two warring families, the Kinahans and the Hutches were shooting each other. Eighteen people were killed in three years, which is huge in Dublin. You know, it's a small city. And it all started with a big shootout and an attack on Daniel Kinahan. Life at a hotel called the Regency Hotel in Dublin, which was holding a boxing match way in at the time. And Daniel Kennan managed to escape to the UAE at that point. And there's been a global manhunt basically for him since then.
- [32:28]
C
And Joe, you, you've been watching documentaries about these families. There's a really good one on iplayer. You recommend it?
- [32:33]
B
You don't need a subscription for iPlayer, a four part documentary.
- [32:36]
C
You do need to pay your TV license, though.
- [32:38]
B
Sorry. Yes, you do.
- [32:39]
C
Yes, agree, crucially. Definitely got that reminder set. But there's just so many twists to this saga. And so I was on the bellingcat website this morning. So, you know the people that do the investigations using open source information on the Internet and they'd track down reviews that the dad, Christy Kinahan, yeah. Had been leaving at various places that he'd visited around the world, including like sandwich shops and pizza restaurants in Zimbabwe. You could basically track where he was going.
- [33:11]
B
Completely bizarre. Suggests that maybe, I mean, I'm sure he has many security measures he employs, but a few little flaws in his plan. Certainly. The Sunday Times, John Mooney at the Sunday Times, who's their sort of Iowa investigations reporter, he's done loads of stuff, including with bellingcat and it is. I mean, you could spend hours Googling this or youtubing this, but what a fascinating family. What an interesting story that this sort of Dublin family, the Americans call them an organised crime group, have moved Spain at one stage now to the uae. The tentacles, prosecutors argue, have spread across the world. And this has become what was a sort of a city policing challenge, something that the US government are really worried about and seems to be sort of fracturing and people worrying about where their next steps are and where they can go next.
- [34:11]
C
Just on a related note, Katrina, and it's about how justice, the justice process works in different jurisdictions. I'm always amazed that on newscast whenever I'm covering an American court case or crime related story or a sanctions related Thing you can go on the American websites, the click the official government websites and you get these massive documents with loads of the evidence written down and you can just read, read that in black and white, the case that the government thinks they're making against a particular person. Whereas in the uk, really, the only way you can get that is by going to the court personally, sitting through the entire hearing, and then maybe, if you're lucky, some of the lawyers will give you a printout of what they've been saying in court. It's amazing the difference in just how
- [34:50]
B
you can say what you want as a journalist, I mean, not what you want. But in America, commentary on court cases is. Well, the rules are very different from contempt of court laws here. Right. I spent a long time covering Ghislain Maxwell's trial in New York and we had a different broadcaster before I worked at the BBC. And you have this challenge. Are we covering.
- [35:11]
C
I do need to pay a subscription.
- [35:14]
B
No, actually, you don't. For that, you don't.
- [35:15]
C
Oh, no, yeah. Not that bit of it.
- [35:18]
B
Not for the news part of it. But how should we be covering this? Should we be covering this as you would if it was happening in the UK or in the us? Because there'll be people outside court discussing, not just doorsteping witnesses as they walked in, but also discussing what is the strategy of this side and this side. And the sort of court commentary of Court TV in the US is so much a part of the. The narrative in a way that would absolutely not be allowed in the uk, because our system is based on the fact that you need to have a fair trial and the jury could be swung by what's on the TV or what's on the radio, even though the judges always say, do not look at anything, only make your decisions based on what you hear in this room from these people.
- [36:07]
D
What's really interesting about Daniel Kennehan as well is he has done an interview with a scene Scottish podcaster, actually James English, and it seems like parts of it were recorded while he was in custody in Dubai awaiting extradition, which again, is not something like ordinarily you would get in Ireland, that somebody who's in custody is doing an interview with the podcaster or a journalist or anything like that. But, yeah, the amount of information you can get in the US is quite extraordinary.
- [36:38]
C
Yeah. So that's the end of this episode of this podcast. Thank you very much to you, Joe.
- [36:43]
B
Thanks, Adam. Oh, you can clap.
- [36:45]
C
Yes. Katrina, thanks for coming all this way.
- [36:51]
D
You are welcome. Thank you.
- [36:57]
C
And also just thanks for the 247 monitoring you do of the Trump administration, which is beyond the call of duty. So we really appreciate it. Thank you to my colleagues and the people here at the venue here in Edinburgh who helped us put this episode together and broadcast it. And thanks to you, the audience who came to see us. And we'll be back with another episode of Newscast from the Edinburgh Festival very soon.
- [37:23]
B
Bye bye. Newscast.
- [37:25]
D
Newscast from the BBC well, thank you
- [37:27]
B
for making it to the end of another news cast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chats will miraculously make its way to your phone.
- [37:53]
A
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