​​The Ann Widdecombe Murder Investigation

Summary

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Newscast | BBC News

Episode: The Ann Widdecombe Murder Investigation
Date: July 11, 2026
Hosts: Laura Kuenssberg & Paddy O’Connell (featuring Rachel Reeves interview)

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Overview

This episode covers two major developing stories:

1. The shocking death and subsequent murder investigation of former politician Ann Widdecombe, exploring what is known and reflecting on her impact and the state of modern political life.
2. A major scoop: Laura Kuenssberg’s exclusive interview with Chancellor Rachel Reeves, as her tenure ends—a candid discussion on Labour’s time in government, her legacy, party turmoil, and the challenges facing incoming PM Andy Burnham.

The episode is anchored by ongoing news updates, personal reflections, and sharp analysis on British political culture.

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The Ann Widdecombe Murder Investigation

The Story Unfolds

• Initial reporting: Widdecombe’s death was first presented as a “terribly sad” but natural passing of a 70-something woman at home.
  • “She died. Tributes on the radio and on the television said this unique character, she'd gone from politics to the living room via strictly and via some heartfelt beliefs.” — Paddy O’Connell [00:27]
• Darker turn: Police soon revealed her death is a suspected murder. A suspect was arrested, then released, and the police are now seeking an unidentified suspect.
  • “A suspect, unidentified, at large, in the suspected murder of Anne Widdicombe.” — Paddy O’Connell [01:07]
• Clarification of facts:
  • Police do not believe the crime was terror-related or politically motivated, at this time.
  • Police believe Widdecombe was attacked 24 hours before being found dead [04:39–05:10].

Quote – On the Investigation:

• “The police have launched a murder investigation and they are remaining open minded on the question of the motive. They said in the news conferences, not terror, they said did not believe it was politically motivated... ‘no information to believe that it is a politically motivated crime.’” — Paddy O’Connell [02:15]

Context & Reflection

• Place and person: Widdecombe enjoyed an open, village life at the edge of Dartmoor.
• Shift in news narrative: The story gained national resonance due to the abrupt escalation to murder, recalling anxieties about political violence in post-Jo Cox and David Amess Britain.
  • “That shadow of political motivations, of course, is on everybody's mind in politics... It is a terrible thing that people who put themselves forward for public life find that's accompanied... by threats and potential danger.” — Laura Kuenssberg [05:10]
• Listener reaction:
  • Samuel writes in, urging more nuanced portrayal of politicians, referencing how tropes and caricature can discourage good people from entering politics [03:18].

Ann Widdecombe’s Legacy

• A trailblazer: One of the first outspoken women ministers, known for “utter conviction”—her sharp, unapologetic style was both divisive and oddly endearing.
  • “Somebody who was incredibly outspoken, incredibly candid... would never deviate and relished being up for the fight [...], people across the political spectrum had a real soft spot for her.” — Laura Kuenssberg [04:39]
• Two-phase career: Conservative MP through the 1990s-2010, later Brexit Party MEP and Reform UK spokesperson [06:51].
• Media persona: Known as fun, caustic, deeply courteous, and candid—unlike today’s often-scripted politicians.
• Memorable tribute from listener Samuel:
  • “Anne can best be remembered in her own words: ‘All I do is what I think is right and leave the rest to God.’” — Samuel (by email), cited by Paddy O’Connell [03:18]

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Exclusive Interview: Rachel Reeves on Labour’s End of Power

Rachel Reeves’ Role & Reflection

• Central figure: As Chancellor, key to Labour's brief return to office; the first female Chancellor of the UK.

  • “Her role in just getting Labour back into power is so huge, and [...] she has a sort of place in history.” — Laura Kuenssberg [10:02]

• Restoring credibility: Reeves worked tirelessly to convince business and the public that Labour could be trusted with the economy, shedding Corbyn-era associations.

  • Notably infamous for “nicking pastries” from City breakfast meetings “because she doesn't like waste” [10:45].

• Self-assessment & warning to Burnham:

  • Reeves stresses the importance of entering office with a worked-through plan, highlighting how she and Starmer underestimated the challenge.
  • “Decide what you wanna do and then stick to it once you walk through the shiny black door.” — Laura Kuenssberg [13:00]

Standout Quotes

• “It is important that when Andy walks through that door that he has a work through plan because governing is hard in Britain and... shocks will come his way.” — Rachel Reeves [13:23]
• “If you look at the big picture, I walked in and it was a disaster. And I brought stability back to the UK economy, which had been missing in the run up to Labour getting back into power.” — Laura Kuenssberg summarising Reeves’ view [16:00]

Political Minefields and Missteps

• Hard constraints:

  • Reeves boxed in Labour by promising not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT—making fiscal room difficult when in office.
  • Her political capital was spent quickly, leaving insufficient leverage for welfare reform.

• Mixed verdicts:

  • On one hand, she stabilized finances; on the other, critics (including Labour MPs) say she lost political clout and the “big arguments.”
  • “She arrived thinking the economy... would brighten up quickly. But by the time she found things were different—tight public finances, mushrooming welfare... she’d used up most of her political capital and was unable to win the big arguments.” — Laura Kuenssberg, reading a source [18:30]

The Challenge of Modern Government

• UK’s debt & welfare issues:

  • The population is aging (pensions, triple lock), welfare costs are soaring, OBR describes UK debt as on an “unsustainable” path [21:01–22:54].
  • “Servicing our debt is costing us £100 billion a year.” — Paddy O’Connell [23:13]

• Fallout of Labour’s collapse:

  • Labour’s in-fighting; over 80% of MPs ousting Starmer and rapid rise of Burnham.
  • “Whoever wins this general election is inheriting a very, very difficult place to govern.” — Paddy O’Connell [23:19]

Human Side: Reeves’ Emotional Moment

• Her Commons tears:
  • Reeves recounts the day she cried in Parliament, which became a national spectacle:
  • “Well, I would say don't cry on national television. That was probably my toughest moment, or perhaps even tougher, seeing the photos of me crying on national television, on the front page of pretty much every newspaper...” — Rachel Reeves [27:18]
• Showing vulnerability:
  • Reeves contrasts the armor of high office with her more relaxed, warm, and humorous private persona, reflected in rare moments [28:12].

Party Future & Teamwork

• Will Labour “button it & get on with it” under Burnham, or repeat the Tory cycle of internal sniping and splits?
  • “This is a big question for Labour. Do they button it and get on with it and get on with each other, or do they... start whispering to journalists?” — Laura Kuenssberg [29:42]

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Lighter Moments and Other News

• Trump-Harry Kane golf story confirmed:
  • Harry Kane describes his round with Trump as “pretty surreal... His golf is pretty good, to be honest. I hope I can play golf as well as him when I'm his age, that's for sure.” — Laura Kuenssberg quoting Kane [32:34]
• Speculation over future ambassadorial appointments:
  • Humorous musings on Harry Kane and David Miliband (former Foreign Secretary) as US ambassador [33:08].
• Football sweepstake banter:
  • Laura has Norway, Paddy’s team eliminated—exemplifies informal, warm host rapport [33:43].

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On motives and politics:
  • “They have no information to believe that it is a politically motivated crime.” — Paddy O’Connell [02:15]
• On Ann Widdecombe’s political style:
  • “She was always terribly courteous, great fun, quite caustic, perhaps, sometimes, but somebody who had utter conviction in what she was saying...” — Laura Kuenssberg [06:51]
• On restoring Labour credibility:
  • “Before Starmer invented the mission, she made it her mission to restore Labour’s reputation.” — Laura Kuenssberg [10:02]
• Rachel Reeves to Andy Burnham:
  • “It is important... that he has a work through plan because governing is hard in Britain and... shocks will come his way.” — Rachel Reeves [13:23]
• On coming to terms with political failure:
  • “...the fact that they're getting the heave ho is the evidence that it went badly wrong. So there's no other way around that.” — Laura Kuenssberg [23:54]
• On vulnerability in office:
  • “Well, I would say don’t cry on national television. That was probably my toughest moment...” — Rachel Reeves [27:18]

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Episode Structure & Key Timestamps

• [00:00–02:40] — Ann Widdecombe’s death and transition to murder investigation
• [02:40–06:29] — Police updates, political context, and listener reflections
• [06:29–08:24] — Remembrance, impact on politics, and discussion of Widdecombe’s public persona
• [09:16–13:23] — Introduction and preview of Rachel Reeves interview
• [13:23–21:00] — Key moments from Reeves interview, Labour’s policies, strategy, and advice for Andy Burnham
• [21:00–29:42] — Deeper analysis of welfare/debt, Labour’s party dynamics, and the politics of transition
• [29:42–31:58] — Party unity, warnings, lighter political gossip and speculation
• [32:06–33:56] — Harry Kane/Trump anecdote, ambassador speculation, and football sweepstake
• [33:56–34:12] — Casual wrap-up

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Tone & Style

• The episode balances serious investigative news and thoughtful reflection (on Widdecombe’s murder and its context) with the inside, knowing humour and warmth typical of Newscast—especially in political banter and personal anecdotes.
• Laura and Paddy are candid, sometimes wry, yet always empathetic, especially when discussing the pressures and unpredictability of modern political life.

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In Summary

This episode delivers a thorough, empathetic, and timely exploration of both a national tragedy—the murder of Ann Widdecombe—and a pivotal political moment as Labour’s reign ends and a new chapter under Andy Burnham begins. With sharp political insight, personal recollection, and flashes of dark humour, it’s an exemplary episode for understanding the gravity, complexity, and humanity at the heart of UK politics today.

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Transcript

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So, Paddy, we will talk today about what we know in a sad and shocking story, which is the death of Anne Widdicombe, a prominent politician for decades, and then somebody who came into everybody's lives. And this story began as terribly sad news about a woman in her late 70s who had passed away and had been found at home dead. But then it developed into something much more sinister with the policing, the. There would be a murder inquiry.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. So it was delivered in two sections in the news yesterday, the morning news. She died. Tributes on the radio and on the television said this unique character, she'd gone from politics to the living room via strictly and via some heartfelt beliefs. She was one of the people who brightened the nation, said the tributes. And then the police said, we're going to have a news conference. Then the police said that it was doing a murder investigation. Then the news conference came, which they said there'd been an arrest. Then this morning, the suspect had been released. So we're back to where we were. A suspect, unidentified, at large, in the suspected murder of Anne Widdicombe. And we'll talk about that and also your scoop.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So we went to number 11 Downing street yesterday to sit down with Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, in what will probably in all likelihood be her last big interview in that job. And she's been someone not just who's been on the front line of politics in the last two years as Keir Starmer's government has sort of ebbed away, but also she was an absolutely critical part of Labour's return to office. Obviously, she's had a huge influence over what's happened in the economy in this country, how we all live and breathe and experience the real life finances of the UK in the 2000s. So we'll talk a bit about what she had to say on this Saturday's episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Rachel Reeves]

I will resign as leader of the Labour Party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall? Humanity's next voyage begins.

[Paddy O'Connell]

You know, I like my buses.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I'll come on to them.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's supposed to be me as a doctor.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Ooh la la.

[Rachel Reeves]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio and

[Laura Kuenssberg]

it's Laura in the studio and it

[Paddy O'Connell]

is a very grim piece of news. Anne Widdicombe has been killed. The police have launched a murder investigation and they are remaining open minded on the question of the motive. They said in the news conferences, not terror, they said did not believe it was politically motivated, but the exact quote is of interest. They have no information to believe that it is a politically motivated crime.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And we should say we're recording this at 10:1 on Saturday lunchtime because obviously this is the kind of story that could change very, very quickly. And there have already been lots of events, if you like, in the short life of this terrible story. She was found dead on Thursday. On Friday, a suspect was arrested, a white male, but then who was released this morning, on Saturday morning. So the police have already had to go back on what they said yesterday, which was they weren't looking for anybody else. Now, of course, there is a manhunt and a suspect we presume to be at large.

[Paddy O'Connell]

There's a very large police presence in the village where Anne lived on the edge of Dartmoor. She loved the peace and quiet and tranquility there. And there are many photographs of her relishing her life there. And she made no secret, she didn't hide herself away. She was part of village life. And the way the news broke has mystified some journalists because when it was announced, the management team, who subsequently said they were devastated, did not say there'd been any foul play. Neither did the police. Everything changed on Friday afternoon at about between 3 and 4, so the whole thing took on an extra horror for the country. Now, when you get to the heart of it, Samuel has emailed to say he's a newscaster. I wonder if, given the sad news about the death of my friend Anne Widdicom, you may reflect on how politicians are portrayed and perceived. I fear that tropes and caricature unhelpfully stigmatise politicians and the lack of nuance that any individual deserves, it puts off many a good person who may consider entering politics. Anne can best be remembered in her own words. All I do is what I think is right and leave the rest to God. He's worried about the motivation for entering politics. So we won't link it. We don't know.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We don't know.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But we do know that she was, in her time, she was caricatured.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

She absolutely was caricatured. And she was caricatured as somebody who was. If you think back to the era when she became prominent, it was still quite unusual to see women in big jobs in politics. So if you think that I. For me, that's been part of the context on my mind. So when it was relatively unusual in her time in government in the early 90s as part of the Conservative government, then Having women ministers out and about, anyway was quite an unusual thing then, to have somebody who was incredibly outspoken, incredibly candid, very strong, very firm, and who had views that many, many people objected to, but it was quite unapologetic in, in sharing them, would never sort of deviate and relished being up for the fight and wasn't disliked by having trenchant views, you know, sort of quite, quite the opposite in the way people across the political spectrum had a real soft spot for her. And I suppose her strong views were articulated in a way in a different era when politicians could have strong views and not necessarily be completely vilified for, for, for having them. And that, I think, is something that has changed. So, although we should be clear, as you have been, we don't know anything about the motivation for this attack. We know that the police have, have now said they think she was attacked 24 hours before she was found. But that shadow of political motivations, of course, is on everybody's mind in politics because of the appalling killing of Jo Cox, because of the appalling killing of David Amos, because of the many, many threats which frontline politicians live with now, which is, we can say out loud, that is not a good feature of modern politics. It is a terrible thing that people who put themselves forward for public life find that's accompanied so often, all too often, by threats and potential danger.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. And if Samuel in the Newscaster is asking, do I personally think we should disagree better? Yes.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes. And it's also a situation, though, whether it's somebody who had a massive political profile, but a massive, also profile, sort of as a celebrity, if you like, reality show.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Did you meet her?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I do remember her and I remember, you know, as a, as a young political correspondent, sort of, you know, making my way and cutting my teeth, that she was always terribly courteous, great fun, quite caustic, perhaps, sometimes, but somebody who had utter conviction in what she was saying, and we don't always have that in modern politicians. You know, sometimes politicians are so concerned about sticking to a script because they have to if they're parts of a government, sometimes also just because they're sort of worried other times about how far they can go on various issues, or you might more unkindly argue, because sometimes they don't know what they think. And. And she absolutely did, and she was always pretty candid, pretty open and if caustic. But she'd also had a sort of second lease of political life, of course, because she joined the Brexit Party and was an mep so. So she had this sort of two phase career, if you like, a long period as a Conservative polit, then a kind of step back. She left parliament in 2010, but she joined the Brexit Party in 2019, became an MEP, and then of course was actually Reform's spokesperson on justice issues and was a big figure in the reform movement.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I was just revisiting one of the interviews I did with her and I was reminded just how very robust she was and good natured she was in arguments. You couldn't upset her by saying a different thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

So how did you find her then? Because you must. I'm sure she did the reviews on Broadcasting House so on many times over the years.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. I mean, I was just reviewing an interview I did with her about the programming of Parliament.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Boris Johnson tried to shut up Parliament rather than allow them to stop him leaving the EU without a deal back in twenties. 2019.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's right.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Long hot. Another long, hot summer.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah. And she was saying the media was getting too excited about this. And I said to her, well, hang on a minute, I. I found a clip of you in Parliament saying that the labor front bench was too powerful. And she, she laughed as if to say, you've done your homework. She was very forgiving about it. She didn't feel that she'd been trapped. And so to our newscaster who's written saying, he's a friend, and to all of the people who did, who, who would count as a friend, we send obviously, commiserations.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And just a reminder, we're recording this. It's now 20 past 1 on Saturday lunchtime. And whenever you are listening right across the BBC, there'll be updates on that important and sad story.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So one thing that isn't going to change is your recorded interview with Rachel Reeves, which we can preview because you've come here with shop window sort of attractions from this interview. And it's another fabulous interview I've been waiting to hear. Rachel Reeves in interview. And you've secured it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, that's interesting. Have you? So you are. Because it's a funny thing when you have a handover of government. How interested are people in the perspectives of those who are leaving? Or is everybody actually just interested in what's coming down the track? So I'm pleased that at least you. So at least one listener and viewer will be interested.

[Paddy O'Connell]

She's been playing her cards in a really intriguing way because she's been flashing her headlights at Andy Burnham. She's never sounded churlish. She sounded like she's auditioning for a job, even the same job.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's interesting. And she was One of those MPs that rushed to be in the Barnum selfie, and she was in the Burnham selfie, but not in Downing street for Keir Starmer's resignation speech. And that was just interesting to me. I mean, Rachel Reeves is a canny politician and she was much more political than her next door neighbour, Keir Starmer, without question. But I think we forget sometimes, partly because we haven't seen very much of Rachel Reeves in the last year, that she was absolutely intrinsic to the Starmer project. He made her as Shadow Chancellor in 2021. The whole focus of her and her team was could they rebuild Labour's credibility so that the country would TR. Party with their money? You know, that incoming team, the people around Starmer saw a massive job that they had to do because they believed that labor had completely ditched their economic credibility under the Jeremy Corbyn project. And it was Rachel Reeves, following Annelise Dods, who was the first Shadow Chancellor, who made it her sort of mission, really. Before Starmer invented the mission, she made it her mission to restore Labor's reputation. And she spent years, you know, before the general election, three years going around the city having breakfast and dinners and all the rest, nicking some of the pastries she once admitted to. Because she doesn't like waste. Yeah, she doesn't like waste. So at the end of City breakfast, she used to instruct her team to put the pastries in their handbags and she coughed to it once on the telly. So I think her role in just getting Labour back into power is so huge, and even on that alone, she has a sort of place in history. Then, of course, she was the first female Chancellor. She's been in charge in number 11 at a time of huge turmoil around the world, but also then as one of the, you know, key architects of Labour's return to power. Also, she's somebody who bears responsibility for lots of the things that went wrong, because.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Do you remember when Andy Burnham went on Reddit? Yes, I. I posted a question. Did you, under the handle Iampaddy o' Connell saying, will you be the first Prime Minister to sack the first female Chancellor?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Did he answer you?

[Paddy O'Connell]

He did not.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's miraculous he didn't pick to answer that question, isn't it? What a surprise.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I mean, what. She's got advice for him.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

She has advice for him. So there's lots of things in our interview and when we play it all tomorrow, I do urge you newscasters to listen to it all because she's a really important historical figure and it's interesting to hear her talk generally about her reflections in time. But the thing that stood out to me is she laid out a very careful warning to Andy Barnum, essentially about knowing what it was he wanted to do, deciding what he wants to do, having a proper plan before he walks through the number ten door. Hint, hint. Maybe me and my next door neighbor didn't really. And they found that governing was harder than they had expected it to be. And she wasn't saying, I'm worried that Andy doesn't know what he's doing because she still wants to have a job in government, although we don't expect her to stay as the Chancellor. But she did, very carefully, basically. Oh, I was gonna say drop that hint. It wasn't dropping a hint at all. She was warning him, decide what you wanna do and then stick to it once you walk through the shiny black door. But I also asked her, you know, whether she'd been irritated by what we now know was that Andy Barnum and some of his allies had been plotting for power for a year.

[Rachel Reeves]

I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to have ambition. And Andy has never shied away from the fact that he wanted at some point to lead the Labour Party and I want him to be ready for that because I want him to be a success and I am sure he will be. But it is important that when Andy walks through that door that he has a work through plan because governing is hard in Britain and lots of, lots of challenges and shocks will come his way. And what is really important is that him and his team are really clear about what they want to achieve as those shocks come along. He needs to stay laser focused on those things that have always motivated him, have always driven him and are the reason why he wants to lead our great country.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, look, I'm so pleased you've got this interview. Everything in this one sound bite is of a great interest because the other thing they did in their manifesto was box themselves in. It's now widely agreed by people across the spectrum by saying they would not pull the three main levers which the state pulls when it needs money. That's what the state does.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Absolutely.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So Andy Burnham has committed to staying with the manifesto and furthermore, he's boxed it himself in again by saying he's not going to visit the triple lock.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

That's true. What he hasn't said though is that he won't get rid of council tax and do a different kind of tax. He hasn't said that he won't increase capital gains or the so called mansion tax and tax on property and he has said that there's room for maneuver on tax. So that is all interesting, but we'll see what happens. In terms of Reeves, you're right. I mean, that's one of the absolute central criticisms, is that she moved into number 11 having been so eager to win that she basically ruled out anything that might sound like it was nasty to the electorate. But it meant once she was in there, she didn't have many ways of getting to the atm. So therefore she put up taxes on businesses, which businesses hated. She also tried to get rid of winter fuel allowance for millions of pensioners, which her party and lots of the public hated. And that sapped away at her political authority, which then meant when it came to trying to make changes to welfare, she didn't necessarily have the political clout to win that argument. That said, it was so obvious that she really, really wants to be remembered for sorting out the disaster that she found in her version of world events when she walked through that door and she said, sort of repeatedly, look, if you look at the big picture, I walked in and it was a disaster. And I brought stability back to the UK economy, which had been missing in the run up to Labour getting back into power. And it was really striking that that was what the message she wanted to be conveyed essentially on the big calls. Hear me, everyone. Rachel Reeves says, I got it right.

[Rachel Reeves]

I kept saying during the general election campaign and since I've become Chancellor, you have to build growth and change on that rock of stability and trust that I've managed to return to our economy. But people are impatient for change, I'm impatient for change and I totally get that. People want to see their lives changed faster. And that will be the job for Andy Burnham when he becomes a Prime Minister of our country in just over a week's time. But he's becoming Prime Minister because of the majority that we secured. And I also know, because of the work that I have done, Andy will take over an economy that is much stronger than the one that I inherited from the Conservatives just two years ago.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I mean, I'm just enjoying every bit of this. So here on newscast, we've had a very pugnacious Jeremy Hunt, who was the last Conservative Chancellor.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And he would dispute everything that Rachel Reeves has just said.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What we can say impartially is that the IMF was revising up British growth last week. Yes, before the latest strangulation of the Strait of Hormuz. So Labour has got a growth argument to make.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It does. And if the International Monetary Fund, which are, you know, the kind of international super brains when it comes to the economy, are saying, actually the UK is doing better than some other countries, then Rachel Reeves, of course is going to put that feather in her cap and say, look at my lovely cap. Didn't I do well?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Gordon Brown's favorite thing. We're doing better than France. We're doing better than Germany, we're doing better than Italy.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Exactly. And she would say government borrowing costs have come down. She would say that inflation has come down from its peak. She would say that there have been lots of interest rate cuts in the time that she has been in charge. All of those things are true. However, her detractors would say that the debt of this country will be higher. It was forecast to be higher in 2029 than it was in 2024 when she moved in. Her detractors would say that growth is still measly even though the economy is growing. And they would say that mistakes that she made politically, you know, and critics on the left would say that she didn't have the political nouns. As one of them said to me, to see that winter fuel, welfare, those things were going to be a disaster with the Labour Party, that she sapped her own authority. And I just want to read you one assessment which I think is sort of the middle of the road because I talked to a lot of people on Thursday before we did the interview in the sort of city sources and political sources and people to kind of try and, you know, get a picture of what people's views of REW were. And I just want to read you one of the comments because I think it sort of lands in the, in the, in the middle of the road. And they said, here we are. She arrived thinking the economy would probably bounce back and all she'd have to do is shovel money into public services. She spent a lot of time painting a grim picture of the inheritance in the election, expecting things would brighten up quickly. But by the time she found things were different. With tight public finances mushrooming welfare and the economy stuck in a low growth trap, she'd used up most of her political capital and was unable to win the big arguments. I think her instincts are generally okay, but by the time she figured out the right things to do, it was too late. Now, newscasters, let us know what you think of Rachel Reeves time in as Chancellor. There are lots of different views. But that was one that kind of sort of resonated with me that people would say, yeah, okay, she found a disaster. She did kind of right the ship. But after that it just didn't unfold in the way that she would have wanted to. And, and that just did. And she was exposed. I mean, I think she found herself kind of exposed in a way that it didn't all go according to plan, but I think quite in a way, there was an echo of Keir Starmer's interview with Henry last week. She's not ready to say I made loads of mistakes. She's saying, Andy's gonna get a great or a much better economy. That's down to me and my hard work and labor and government isn't over, it's the end of a chapter. But on we go, rather than saying, you know, it's all terrible and what a disaster and we got booted out and how embarrassing is that?

[Paddy O'Connell]

And also, I mean, one of the big arguments for Britain is the growing welfare bill. So we want people to have a safety net and that bill for the safety net is growing and our population is aging. So the pension bill, which is triple locked, is going to grow because of the good news, news that more people are living longer, we want our relatives to live longer and we wish them a happy retirement. More of them are going to do it and that currently it's triple locked. So that bill is going up, everybody, no matter what we do at the moment.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Exactly.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And then the welfare bill is going up as well. So more people are claiming more benefits. And this is a central argument and it split the Labour Party completely in the first term of Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer's trying.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It absolutely did. And we had just in the last few days the TIMS review came back having looked at whether PIP1 of the disability benefits or long term ill health benefits worked. His conclusion was this benefit doesn't basically work at all. And we've got to kind of come up with another plan. It was quite similar to Alan Milburn's report about youth unemployment and young people being parked on benefits rather than being helped into work properly. Both these big pieces of work come forward and say, oh look, there's a big, big problem over here. But it's not a problem that Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer have shown that they were able to address for all sorts of different reasons. Now, incomes, then massive question mark. Will Andy Barnum be able to address it? But that question of welfare is, you know, that is going to be One of the political questions of our time for at least the next kind of 2, 5, 10 years. And it takes us back to the debt problem. Now, if you're sad as me and you look at the charts of this, of where the UK debt is expected to be in the next, not just the next kind of few years, but the next five, 10, 20, 30 years, if you had to describe it, it's like a hockey stick. I mean, it just goes absolutely up. So if you were sad as I am, and you read the Office for Budget Responsibility latest fiscal reports, it says the UK is on a path on debt that is unsustainable, to use their words, it says unsustainable. Now, whatever political stripe you're on, that is a fact that the forecasters who look at the state of the economy say the way that this country spends money and earns money is not going to add up in the decades to come unless a government of any whatever persuasion does something quite radical, either finds a magic way of getting the economy to go gangbusters and grow a massive rate, or cut slots of things from the state, or charges more tax and you can't do it any other way, or you could borrow even more, but, you know, the debt's already so enormous,

[Paddy O'Connell]

servicing our debt debt is costing us £100 billion a year.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Spill on my credit card.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah. Andy Burnham, are you listening? And so welcome. It's a bit like we said, we were right before the general election. We're often wrong, but we were right. We said, whoever wins this general election is inheriting a very, very difficult place to govern. We can go back, we can play it, we said it. And then what happened is they played a bad hand. Badly, say their own party who have changed the leader. They say, you played the hand so badly, Keir Starmer, four fifths of Labour MPs are going to vote publicly to get rid of you.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. And that's the thing. And it's interesting from a human point of view as well, at what point are Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer willing to sort of publicly really absorb or confront the failures of their project? Because although she's so keen to say, I left the economy in a better shape than it was when I walked through the number 11 door, the fact that they're getting the heave ho is the evidence that it went badly wrong. So there's no other way around that. Of course, it's intriguing to imagine what Rachel Reeves might do next, you know, and nobody has a clue, frankly.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I bet you do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I Don't know. I mean, I don't know. You know, Andy Burnham.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, my.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I don't know. Look, there's one, there's one, I think, very unlikely scenario, but there is a scenario where he says, actually, do you know what? Let's keep her. Because market stability. In the last couple of years, whenever there was a suggestion that Rachel Reeves might have been going to get a he foe or resign, the markets really, really wobbled because they saw her as being somebody who. Responsible, who wasn't going to come in and start just writing checks all over the place. So there's a time, I think there's a tiny chance of that, but there is a scenario. I. I think it's tricky to see that she would just be expected to return to the backbenches, having publicly given Barnum her support. And his team obviously are conscious of the financial markets. But I don't know, because once you start giving out job, I mean, I don't know. And it's a, it's been quite, as a, as a reporter, it's been quite an impressive feature, actually, of Barnum's team, Barnum's real inner core team, if you like, that they are really managing not to engage in speculation about who will get what job. And people have sort of a little bit given up the parlor game that was running pretty hard in Westminster a fortnight ago about who the Chancellor will be. He keeps saying, like, no one knows. And I was talking to one of his close allies yesterday who said to me, I genuinely don't know. Should I believe them? I don't know. Newscasters fill in the blanks, but they are managing to keep it very tight.

[Paddy O'Connell]

One thing that she is remembered for, and this again goes to our earlier conversation about how politics is a really rough sort of game. It's not really a game. Politics is rough life. Rough life, yeah. Yeah. She wept. In the Commons, it was uncomfortable for everybody. And it was also marked by the fact that because Keir Starmer was on his feet, he couldn't really see, as he didn't really know what was happening to him. And it's just one of the things when you try and address in your mind about this extraordinary news cycle. A new labor government with a massive majority then lost the support of its own MPs in a sort of slow motion coup. And we now know 12 months ago, Andy Burnham and his friends were plotting to take over the top job. And one of the things that people at the center, your guest, wept.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. And it was an extraordinary moment and a kind of awful. You know, it was only kind of when a watch with your hands over your face, you know, you sort of couldn't look away. And she said several times in our conversation, and it did kind of. I was. It was noticeable how many times she said it. She said, governing is hard. She kept saying, governing is hard. It's hard in this country, it's harder in other countries. In this era, governing is hard. And of course I wanted to ask her, well, what's the hardest bit been? And she referred to that day, but actually she managed to turn it into a bit of a joke.

[Rachel Reeves]

Well, I would say don't cry on national television. That was probably my toughest moment, or perhaps even tougher, seeing the photos of me crying on national television, on the front page of pretty much every newspaper the following day. But even that day was better than the 14 years in opposition when I was powerless to change anything in this country.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I don't want to pry about it unnecessarily, but you raised it. Would you tell people what was going on? Because there was a rumor you'd had a fight with the speaker and something else had happened.

[Rachel Reeves]

But it was a tough day and we all have tough days. You know, I talked to my friends and people wrote to me saying, you know, that happened to me once and the only difference is I was on the telly. So, you know, people have difficult days at work and that was one for me. But yeah, that's where you should cry. Not on the television. So that was my toughest day.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's funny there because also Rachel Reeves there gives a flash actually of what she is like when the camera's not on. You know, she has had this very kind of armor plated chancellor image. But then over the years, you sort of catch her at a much more human moment and that kind of gave a flash of it. She's somebody actually who her staff always talk of with sort of great fondness. She's somebody who is actually notably different when there isn't a camera on her. And there have been a few, only a few moments over the years where you've seen a sort of flash of that humor or emotion and other ones. I remember when she walked into the treasury for the first time, the cameras were there and she had this huge cheer from the staff and she talked about what it meant to her to be the first female Chancellor and just this sort of beam. She was cheered by the civil servants, you know, really welcoming her with huge warmth. And she gave this massive sort of megawatt smile and I just thought you never see that. You never see that. So it'll be fascinating to see what she does next.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes, totally. And I. I think this interview gives us a very strong signal that she wants it to go well with Andy Burnham. She's. It would be so easy to sulk, which is what Ted Heath did. Did when he was displaced by Margaret Thatcher. It was called the longest sulk in political history. He's much loved Ted Heath by his. By conservatives who remember him, but that is what it was described as. And she's not doing that. She's really suggesting she'll work with him.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

She is. And she was saying, you know, it's important he knows what he wants to do. But she wasn't saying he has to be worried about the markets, and I don't think that he's responsible. So she was warning him, know what you want to do, be careful, don't chuck our economic credibility away that she worked so hard to create, as she would argue. She has argued it, but she did it in a way that will sort of come across as, you know, it's not a kind of dramatic shot across the bows. You know, definitely a warning, but not destructive. And I think this takes us to a really, really big question for the Labour Party in the next week, in the next couple of months, in the next year, are they able genuinely to work together and say, we all have a stake in making this Burnham premiership a success and therefore, if you don't get a job or if you don't like what he's doing, or you find the whole man from Manchester shtick a bit annoying already, are you going to button your lip because you want everybody to succeed, or are you going to start whispering to journalists? Are you going to start whispering to each other? And are you, in a very unlikely scenario, but not impossible in six months and things are tricky, are you going to start saying near a microphone, oh, you know what, we should have had a contest? His ideas were never properly tested. Like, this is a big question for Labor. Do they button it and get on with it and get on with each other, or do they do what the Tories did, which is not just change leader, but then, before the leader would even unpack their pants in number 10, start winding each other up about how it was all terribly unfair and it was all wrong and they had all the wrong ideas? And that's a profound question for labor at this moment. Are they going to, as a unit of people, be able to hold it all together and find a way of not every Single person because it's politics. But of the vast majority of them pulling together in their same direction. We'll see.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's a great place to end our discussion about your scoop with Reg Reese, which will be on BBC1 from 9 o' clock and on every BBC platform, I imagine.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, I hope so. I certainly hope so. Also, hot news about the Reeves cat is going to be in that as well. And I know that especially for you, Paddy, a cat lover.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Now also, we can clear something up, which is about there was a mystery over whether President Trump had played golf with Harry Kane.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, it sounds like a fever dream

[Paddy O'Connell]

and Harry Kane has confirmed that it happened. But also what's so interesting about Harry Kane speaking is he's got. Got great natural diplomacy because Donald Trump is even during the World cup, polarizing opinion.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

About the whole red card stramash and Harry Kane. Think of the pressure this man is under. Comes up, I think with one of the most elegant diplomatic remarks about the President.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Absolutely. Harry Kane said we played about 18 months ago. He invited me to play when I was down in Palm Beach. So when the President invites you somewhere, it was pretty surreal just to meet him and play golf. His golf is pretty good, to be honest. I hope I can play golf as well him when I'm his age, that's for sure. I'm grateful he invited me down to play Harry Kane for Randy Barnum's American ambassador.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I mean that's exactly the way. That's exactly what you say when you're next to Donald Trump.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Although that's exactly what you say when you want to be the next British ambassador.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I think we can rule that out. There is confusion about what roles people are going to play in the Andy Byrne administration.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But you've don't rule anything out these days, Paddy. Actually, someone said to me this morning, David Miliband wants to be the U.S. ambassador. Ambassador. There's lots of speculation about whether or not he's gonna come back to the Barnum fold.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We can't. I'm going to change. Not another one.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Another one.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We're gonna have another U.S. ambassador. I don't know.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Someone said he. Oh, he was going to be education session. I mean there is so much guessing going on at the moment.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I don't know on the football that we will have a supporter reporter update tomorrow because obviously the big Norway game England Norway game will be. The result will be known when we all meet together tomorrow. It will.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I've got Norway in the work sweepstake. Who have you got?

[Paddy O'Connell]

I had a team that was excluded very early on. I mean, so, so early on. I now can't remember who I had, but everyone laughed when it was given to me.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, that's a shame. Well, I've got Norway, but who. So whoever wins tonight, it's. It's good for me.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Okay, well, you can't watch. It's too late for both of us.

[Chris Mason]

Okay.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Have it on. You don't have it on when you're going to sleep.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, you can't.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Weird not to.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's ridiculous.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, exactly. But you can. Well, I don't really sleep on. Anyway. We. We've been talking for. Oh my God. We've been talking for 40 minutes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

They'll edit it. They'll edit it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Mercifully.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Okay, so thank you very much for listening and see you tomorrow.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Bye.

[Chris Mason]

Goodbye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to turn talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast by.