Host 1 (2:50)

And the reforms he wants to do are letting magistrates pass longer sentences so that fewer cases go to Crown Court, letting judges pass sentences without a jury for kind of more crimes, and also taking away the. The right of some defendants to decide whether they want to go to Crown Court or Magistrates Court so that their case is dealt within a magistrate. The idea being that eventually you'll be able to cut the number of cases in the backlog waiting to go to Crown Court.

Host 3 (3:16)

And one fascinating nugget, newscasters that Adam in particular loved, which is all about prison vans and traffic lights, all to

Host 1 (3:25)

be revealed in this conversation between newscast and David Lammy, the Justice Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister. Newscast. Newscast from the BBC. Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

Host 3 (3:36)

I was the tattletale in the classroom. Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that Daddy has

Host 1 (3:41)

to sometimes use strong language.

Host 3 (3:43)

Next time in Moscow I feel delulu with no Sululu.

Host 2 (3:47)

Take me down to Downing Street. Let's go have a tour.

Host 3 (3:50)

Blimey.

Host 1 (3:51)

Justice Secretary, hello.

David Lammy (3:52)

Hello.

Host 1 (3:53)

Oh, and Deputy Prime Minister, of course, and Lord Chancellor. First of all, I'm just intrigued cause you have just done a very long speech. I'm not complaining. It's very interesting with lots of aspects to it. As a Minister, why do you want to sort of do these big sort of set piece things? What's the thinking behind doing a whole, rather than one big announcement, you're doing a whole big kind of talk.

David Lammy (4:14)

Well, the truth is that I think we've got used to health Secretaries, Education secretaries, sometimes Home Secretaries, setting out a big speech and a vision for the department. In part because in the British system, under successive governments, we funded those departments well, those public services. Well, the truth is, justice has lost out hugely over the last 15 years and I'm very proud to be the first Justice Secretary for a long time being able to say, yes, we're putting in extra money, yes, we've got the resources to modernize and yes, I'm introducing legislation to reform. So that's why I wanted to do this. And you're going to push me a bit on some of those who are critical of the reform piece of what we're doing around jury trial.

Host 1 (5:06)

Fair prediction, yes.

David Lammy (5:07)

Some of their Criticism has been put the money in, do the modernisation first. And obviously I wanted to meet that by saying, we are doing that and reform to bring down these unacceptable backlogs, waiting times. If you've been a victim of crime.

Host 1 (5:23)

So basically your message to people who said, oh, you want to get rid of trial by jury for some cases, you're now saying to them, you've now got the whole picture in front of you. It's not just that, it also comes with some extra money and some reforms to the efficiency of the court system. So actually vote for the whole package rather than focusing on the bit that they're unhappy with.

David Lammy (5:41)

100%. And we've put the data out alongside that. There'll be, rightly, a debate in Parliament, but the data shows that if we do nothing, we will reach 200,000 cases sitting in the system for years and years and years. By doing all three, we start to bring that backlog down by the next election. It starts to fall much more rapidly as we head into 2035. And behind that are victims of crime. If you're not able to get justice, you think, well, why bother reporting it to the police? The offender goes on to reoffend, people play the system. Democracy actually starts to break down. This is more serious than sometimes people give it credit.

Host 1 (6:24)

Do you think some of your. Sorry, sorry, Chris. Do you think some of your critics then have been missing out the experience of victims when they focus on the right to trial by jury?

David Lammy (6:33)

I qualified as a barrister back in 1995 and it would be right to say at that stage, it's all about the defendant or the prosecution, and often victims got left out. Since then, successive governments have tried to centre the victim. This is more in that direction and making sure that we understand what the justice system is actually for in the end. And it's for those victims to get their day in court and to get justice. And if you've been the victim of a rape or a sexual violent crime, it's retraumatizing to sit for several years going through that. Memories fade, witnesses fall away. And for all of those reasons, justice has got to be quick. And the decision really is, if you steal an iPhone, can that be dealt with by a single judge? What I'm saying is, yes, it can. You do not need a full trial if you've stolen an iPhone in order to make the system speedier. For those who've experienced manslaughter, murder, rape, more serious crimes.

Host 3 (7:40)

Didn't we hear the key acknowledgement from you there a moment or two ago, that even with these reforms change, that people can notice and feel, given the scale of the backlog that you talk about now and where it could get to, you argue, without the changes you're proposing, it's going to take ages, it's going to be beyond the next election, before you're making a real imprint into this. This is the scale of what you're taking on.

David Lammy (8:02)

Well, the truth is, notwithstanding the backlog, which started to rise exponentially during the pandemic, police are arresting more, up 10%. All of us understand, we use our smartphones. That is now evidence in court. There's a lot of stuff that's been gone through in court, cctv, DNA evidence. All of that means that trial's gone for longer. So the. The demand is up and it's outstripping supply. And by that I mean, how many judges have we got? How many barristers have we got? How many solicitors have we got? A lot of those solicitors.

Host 3 (8:36)

This is the point, isn't it, in the short term? This is about trying to avoid things getting much worse, rather than them getting much better.

David Lammy (8:42)

I want to see the backlog coming down by the next election. But you're right, I'll be honest with you, it is not down substantially until we get into the2030s.

Host 3 (8:53)

So it stops getting worse by the end of the decade.

David Lammy (8:56)

And that's in part because, as you know, we will introduce that legislation tomorrow. We will have second reading.

Host 1 (9:03)

Oh, we're getting the legislation tomorrow. You publish it for us to all see. No, I'm intrigued. I'd like to know the timetable of these things.

David Lammy (9:11)

We are publishing the legislation tomorrow. We will have the second reading a few weeks after that, and then it's got to make its way through Parliament and get Royal Assent. It's not until it becomes in the statute books at the end of next year, beginning of 2027, that we can get on and see the reforms. And it's for that reason that it takes some time for this to kick in.

Host 1 (9:35)

But not to turn this into, like the numbers round on Countdown, but. So at the moment, the court backlog is about 80,000, isn't it? Your department's estimate of if you did nothing is that by 2035, that backlog would be up to 200,000. Now, with all these things you want to put in place, that will come down, but does that mean the backlog will go up over the next few years? And so in 2029, when there's a general election, it might be more than 80,000, but projected to come down afterwards. In other words, it will keep going

David Lammy (10:06)

up, potentially it will keep going up over the next year to 18 months, but then start coming down towards the next election. What we will do between now and then is, is get on with those efficiencies, getting our prisoners from prison to court quickly introducing AI and technology. I had a lot of announcements today on how we use technology to speed up the system, moving to a national listing system so that cases are listed nationally across the country, not court by court. All of that will speed up the process as well. And if we get on with that, we can make a difference to the system. But the big bounty is definitely the court reforms that we're proposing, particularly, by the way, stopping the right to elect. And that's stopping defendants being able to pick and choose whether they go to the Crown Court or the Magistrates Court and allowing the judge to have a say in where your case should sit.

Host 1 (11:03)

But just on the numbers, the court backlog could still be 80,000. When we have this conversation again in

David Lammy (11:08)

three years time, it could be.

Host 3 (11:11)

What about the stark examples of a dysfunctional system? So the latest being this suspected rapist who was let out by accident and has fled the country. We were reporting a few months ago on other similar examples of cock ups, basically where people were let out by accident and you talked about introducing additional checks. When does that stop happening? Because for people listening for newscasters, it just seems like a system that is failing on such a fundamental. When that happens.

David Lammy (11:45)

Yes. And I can't tell you how frustrating and anger making it is when you're the minister. And it keeps happening and it is happening and it's happening at a higher rate than it should be happening. Behind it sits a paper based system in our courts and in our prisons. It's definitely a system open therefore to human error. We have a prison capacity crisis, which means that our prisons are running very hot in terms of prisoners moving about the system and overcrowding in our prisons. And because of the backlog in our courts, the court system is running hot and there is too much human error. I introduced some checks and balances to start to bring those figures down, but we needed a comprehensive review to do it properly. And Damelyn Owens, who I asked to do this, is reporting actually in the next few weeks and we will begin to implement her recommendations to actually change the system. But I suspect that you've got to move to a digital system if you want to reduce that human error.

Host 3 (12:47)

I wonder if there's a wider problem here in an Era where people are desperate to see change. You campaigned on that as the key word at the last general election. We're clearly delivering some of these changes in the criminal justice system is complicated and is expensive and takes time. And you're being honest about that, that the frustration of the electorate will be one of this just takes too long for things to change. There are people in prison still being let out by accident. There's a process that's going to take, as you've set out today, the best part of a decade for the numbers to look like they're going in a definitively downward direction. That sense of frustration, that change that people are demanding now is over the horizon.

David Lammy (13:31)

When I knock on people's doors and I'll be up in Manchester knocking on doors later this week ahead of the by election on Thursday, by election, their number one frustration is definitely affordability in the cost of living crisis. That's their number one concern. Second, I would put public services in the state of public services particularly and clearly we will be out on our backsides unless we deliver by the time of the next general election. Absolutely clear about that.

Host 3 (14:03)

But on justice, to be clear, because you were saying this to Adam a few minutes ago, you're kind of acknowledging that it's not a one term project.

David Lammy (14:09)

I think if we look at the progressive government similar to our own, let's look at the Norwegians, let's look at the Australians, let's look at the Canadians. They were returned by being able to demonstrate progress at that next election cycle. I don't think people want say you've got to go the whole way there because they're realistic about what happened before you arrived, but they do want to see deliberate progress or I'm afraid they will vote elsewhere. I accept that that's the basis of democracy. It is democracy under strain. It's very much, much noisier than when I first came into politics. And there's more politics at the extremes than there were when there was very much the fight on the centre ground when I arrived in politics. But I remain a centre ground politician. So I remain in the place where it's tangible progressive ends. I'm realistic about our inheritance, but progressive in our means and our ends to get there.

Host 1 (15:03)

Do you think politicians of all parties got a bit addicted to passing new laws that created new crimes? Because one of the reasons there's such a big backlog, and you said this in your speech, was we've created thousands and thousands of new crimes. Do you think we got it got a bit out of control.

David Lammy (15:17)

That's a very good question. We pass a lot of legislation. It has gone up exponentially too much. And it may well be too much. You put a lot on the statutes, because I suspect that.

Host 1 (15:31)

And you probably called for some of those things.

David Lammy (15:33)

I would have called for something. But let's look at the other change that's happened in my lifetime in Parliament, for example, many more women are sitting in Parliament than there were before. And those women, understandably, for example, want to see legislation on sexual violent crimes that did not exist before. Yeah.

Host 1 (15:55)

Or revenge porn.

David Lammy (15:56)

Revenge porn, upskirting, all these things. Deeply unacceptable. That, of course we should legislate on, on and demand that police arrest in these circumstances. So that must be a good thing. And I accept that that's happened not just in our democracy and other democracies in the world as well.

Host 1 (16:11)

But I'm just wondering, going forward, then, what's a good rule of thumb for say one of your colleagues comes to you and says, let's make this thing a crime now that isn't a crime. What's the rule of thumb then for deciding whether we should criminalize something if we've actually now realized maybe it got a bit out of hand?

David Lammy (16:27)

Actually, it's a good question because in Sir Brian Levison's review, the review that sets up the reforms we're doing, he did talk about prosecution decisions. It is still for the Crown Prosecution Service working with the police to decide what they charge people with. And sometimes you can get the conviction charging with one or two charges, not five, six or seven, in order to bring about and making the case more complex. So, yes, those laws exist on the statute book, but what you charge people with, necessarily to get the result that you're seeking, if you're the Crown Prosecutor, is something that I think the system, the criminal justice system as a whole needs to reflect on.

Host 1 (17:11)

And I think the big thing I've taken away from your speech today is I think maybe I have.

David Lammy (17:15)

Thank you for taking something away.

Host 1 (17:16)

No, you're very. I've made copious notes on my phone. Hopefully it doesn't get stolen on the way out of here. I think I underestimate just. Just how many parts there are to the justice system. And maybe I look at the headlines and sort of take the headlines at face value. The thing that really struck me was when you were talking about prisoner transport vans and how often prisoners are late to get to court because they're stuck in traffic.

Host 3 (17:38)

Traffic light.

Host 1 (17:39)

Yeah. And so you're now going to give prisoner transport vans the Powers to go in bus lanes and also in London to change the traffic light to green. And for me that was a eureka moment of just how big sometimes crazy our justice system is. And actually you see the headlines about the backlog and people waiting years for justice. Actually sometimes it comes down to a red traffic light or a traffic jam.

David Lammy (18:00)

So I was on the phone to the mayor of London discussing this issue at the moment. Ambulances, for example, the traffic light will turn, change color so they can speed through that bus lane quickly. Can we pilot this with prisoner transfer as well? As it is a public kind of emergency to get them to court on time and very rightly. Obviously the mayor of London was a lawyer. He understands that importance and is keen to work with them because he wants to see that back.

Host 1 (18:31)

Although as a politician you're not risking the headlines of like David Lammy lets cons skip the traffic lights. I mean that's, that is what you're doing though, isn't it? My inner tabloid journalist is writing that story now.

David Lammy (18:44)

Well, you know, we do hear frustrations from people who've been called to jury service complaining that they're sitting around in courts and that the system doesn't seem to be timely and efficient. And if you've been asked to take a considerable time off work, you want it to feel productive. So we've got to get the balance right.

Host 1 (19:04)

Maybe jurors should be able to skip the traffic lights and use the bus lanes. And that logic.

Host 3 (19:08)

A few of the topics to get to in a second. I want to ask you one final one. On the whole question question of criminal justice. One of the most read items on the BBC news app today is this story involving corner shops and supermarkets putting chocolate bars in protective plastic sheaths to prevent them being nicked. Basically what does that say about modern Britain that corner shops are so worried about what some might dismiss as kind of petty crime or shoplifting, but is massively damaging to their whole business that they're having to take such a step around the stealing of a chocolate bar.

David Lammy (19:47)

Well, it goes back to that concept of sort of broken glass syndrome that if you see petty crime happening and no one seems to care, it starts to erode the whole of the justice system. Technology and innovation does mean that means change to stop the crime and design out the crime. You used to be able to lift car radios from cars and there was a lot of break ins. That doesn't happen anymore because the technology has changed.

Host 3 (20:20)

But putting a dairy milk in a hard plastic case, for those who argue that this is A broken Britain. They can point at that and say, that's pretty solid evidence.

David Lammy (20:29)

Well, look, I mean, I remember an era where you went down to the corner shop, the sweets came out the jar, and it all felt very different to what you're suggesting in a supermarket. So, of course, in a sense, I lament that that's where we are as a society. But in the end, what we've got to do is prevent shoplifting and also prevent the supermarket having to call the police so the police can spend time on.

Host 1 (20:56)

But I'm just thinking your instant reaction when you hear that story about people nicking chocolate bars is. Is that because people are desperate and they can't afford chocolate bars, or is that crime? Is that organized crime? What's your sort of instinct about what it says about Britain in 2026 that people are grabbing a box of Freddos? Well, I know that's a huge philosophical question.

David Lammy (21:16)

No, look, it's offending behavior. And whenever you get offending behavior, there are three ways to deal with it.

Host 3 (21:22)

Well, you struck all criminality, isn't it?

David Lammy (21:24)

That's criminality. Some offending behavior is a health reason sitting behind that. Maybe mental health. Some of it is education. But I think there was shoplifting. That's criminality and we have to do something about it.

Host 3 (21:40)

Let's widen our conversation to what's happening in Parliament today and the Liberal Democrats arguing that the paper trail surrounding the appointment of Andrew Manbratten Windsor as a trade envy a quarter of a century ago should be the next tranche of documents to see the light of day. Is it your hunch with these questions that transparency is the best disinfectant, that any documents relating to whether it be the former prince or the former ambassador should be out as quickly as is feasible?

David Lammy (22:11)

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Most often, transparency is important. It's why the last Labour government introduced the Freedom of Information act, for example.

Host 1 (22:22)

It doesn't apply to the royal family.

David Lammy (22:24)

That would be where I would sit. And I think we all have to accept that this terrible, terrible episode. I can't comment on a criminal investigation. It would be wrong for me to do that. But we know what has led us to here. And the allegations that have been made require us to think again about the rules of transparency. And that debate has begun. And I was pleased that the speaker indicated that it's right and legitimate for Parliament to discuss these things.

Host 3 (22:57)

When you saw those images of Lord Mandelson being led away from his home, what crossed your mind?

David Lammy (23:08)

It's awful. I have the privilege to serve our country as Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary of State. I have also had the privilege of being Foreign Secretary and travelling around the world. I do believe in my heart that the British system is the least corrupt of systems. But when allegations are made, as has been made, it does make you sit back and reflect. And those scenes were deeply, deeply distressing. And of course, it's important always to mention the victims of crimes that sit behind some of this poor behaviour.

Host 1 (23:52)

In the Q and A. After your speech, our colleague Carl from ITV asked you a question about whether you advised against or disagreed with Peter Manelson being hired as the Ambassador in Washington when you were Foreign Secretary, and you gave a very politician answer, which is that you were bound by collective responsibility, which is that when you're in the Cabinet, you've got to sign up to what the government decides. You can give a more podcasty answer now. Just tell us the truth about what actually happened.

David Lammy (24:14)

Well, no, the truth is that in government, there's always a debate and a discussion about any issue of the day. Sometimes there are different opinions. It's been well canvassed that, of course, that there were different candidates being considered at the time.

Host 3 (24:32)

Were you more a Bear Gryllsman?

David Lammy (24:35)

There were different candidates being considered. The debate was really on. Do we continue with a civil servant, which would be the usual way, or do we need a political appointment? This goes back when many predicted that the Labour government would find it very hard to transition to dealing with the new Trump administration after Joe Biden had lost the election in the United States and the decision was to have a political appointment. And as I said, the Prime Minister and the Chief of Staff is now gone as a result of that decision. I'm bound by collective responsibility, but I don't want to shirk. Of course, I was an influence in those debates and so I also am sorry for the decision that was made

Host 3 (25:21)

just to clear this up for newscasters, because you.

Host 1 (25:23)

Oh, very last question, then, just to

Host 3 (25:26)

clear this up for newscasters who'll be trying to sort of read between the lines, particularly given that this, to an extent, is water under the bridge now, because the Prime Minister has acknowledged that he made a. Made a mistake and clearly you could deny this if it wasn't true. You advised privately that it would be a bad idea to appoint Lord Mandelson. Yeah.

David Lammy (25:42)

I apologise for the role I played in Peter Manderson being appointed, just as the Prime Minister and the Chief of Staff have apologised. I played a role in that decision and I Apologise for it.

Host 1 (25:56)

And we've run out of time, as we heard from your colleague, telling us to wrap up. David Lammy, thank you very much.

David Lammy (26:00)

Thank you.

Host 3 (26:00)

Cheers.

Host 1 (26:06)

Right, so that was our conversation with David Lammy. We could have gone for another hour, couldn't we? But I suppose that's what happens when you've got the DPM in front of you.

Host 3 (26:12)

Yeah. You can sort of ask about everything, as we often do on newscast. And, you know, David Lammy sort of kicked around in politics for a long time and so it's fascinating when he reflects on other things. So a couple of things on the substantive. How quickly can he deliver tangible change? And him acknowledging. And maybe this is maybe fair play to him, he's just being honest about the scale of the challenge. But Labour campaign on change and at the next election, if. If they can get all of this through, they're sort of saying, well, we're sort of starting to turn the court.

Host 1 (26:47)

The court backlog will be the same as it is now in three years time with these refor. It's just they weren't embedded in yet to actually get the backlog down.

Host 3 (26:54)

Now, granted, he would be able to argue that they would have been a lot worse without the changes, if the modeling is accurate. But that shows, I think it's a great case study in the challenges this government faces in this political climate to deliver and deliver when they promise change and then people can point out, well, actually does that amount to what you would regard as sufficient change?

Host 1 (27:16)

And what did you think about what he said about Peter Mandelson? And. And for newscasters listening to this, rather than watching it on YouTube, he sort of squirmed in his chair quite a bit during that section.

Host 3 (27:26)

Yeah. So for me it was the gap, it was the pause that, however you're consuming newscasts, you'll have been able to witness one way or another. When I asked him about his human reflection, seeing those pictures of Lord Mandelson led away from his home, and I think that was just an insight, human insight really, into the anguish for those in government who made that decision to send Peter Mandelson to Washington, which cranked up through the ceiling the salience of this issue for this government as opposed to for that individual, Lord Mandelson, that would have generated the whole thing, would have generated news, Lord Mandelson and the Epstein finds, come what may. But it would have been, at several steps removed, or at least at one or two steps removed from the Prime Minister. And courtesy of that decision, one of the most consequential of his time in office, the Prime Minister and indeed David Lammy not quite willing to acknowledge explicitly that he had advised that appointing Lord

Host 1 (28:21)

Mandelson would be a mistake, coming pretty close.

Host 3 (28:23)

And he would have denied it if it was rubbish. And they're now living with the consequences of that decision. To be fair to them in government. David Lambert didn't quite say this. Their argument is particularly around the last 24 hours or so. Look, some of the stuff that is at the heart of what the police are looking into wasn't even known when he was sacked as ambassador, let alone when he was appointed. So arguably, so say some in government, there's a bit of hindsight bias going on.

Host 1 (28:47)

And as we're recording here at the Excel Centre in East London on Tuesday lunchtime, the Liberal Democrats in Parliament are starting this debate that will probably culminate in documents and emails about the appointment of then Prince Andrew as the Trade envoy in 2001 for the government then basically been out in the open.

Host 3 (29:04)

Yeah. So the government isn't going to oppose this. So we're going to get used to using the word tranche. Or is it trange? Tranche. I think it is traunch, actually. Even though I'm sort of inclined to say tranche, I think it is traunch. That word is going to feature a lot because we're going to get more documents. This is relating to the appointment of Andrew Mountain Pattern Windsor as a trade envoy that was back in 2001 under a Labour government. Again, no doubt there'll be a bit of wrangle as the room is de rigged around us as a television is unplugged. There'll be a no doubt conversation around what it is reasonable or legitimate to be released in the context of an ongoing police investigation involving the former Prince. But looks like those documents will come less awkward, I think, for the government now than the previous debates with all the stuff around Lord Mandelson is. But it means the tale of this whole story just goes on and on and on.

Host 1 (29:58)

And just the little soundscape that you're hearing now, that's one of the sparkies here taking apart a TV stand that was being used at David Lammy's speech. So you can hear the event being deconstructed as we deconstruct the contents of the event. Oh, also just another little sound related thing. You might have heard somebody from the Ministry of Justice telling us to stop asking questions. I think that was because we'd got to the end of the interview in our allotted time and There was other people waiting rather than them trying to step in to stop us asking questions about Peter Mandelson.

Host 3 (30:25)

Yeah, I think that's probably in terms

Host 1 (30:27)

of how it played out.

Host 3 (30:28)

They hadn't jumped in when we were talking about justice issues, but then we had used our time, haven't we? So there you go.

Host 1 (30:34)

And I've now used my time because you've got to go and do work. So see you later.

Host 3 (30:37)

Bye.

Host 1 (30:38)

And that's all for this episode of Newscast where we've been chatting to the Justice Secretary and Deputy Prime Minister David Lammy at this massive, massive temple to conventions in East London. Newscast, newscast from the BBC.

Podcast Outro Host (30:50)

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do. In the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 33123 9480. Be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.

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