John Healey (1:48)

That's true. I think it was November and it's much better to join you in the studio. Glad to do that.

BBC Newscast Host (1:55)

Yeah. So you did this surprise news conference in Downing street on Thursday morning where you were talking about what the Russians had been doing in British waters and what, what Britain had done in response. So let's do the first bit. First, what, what was actually going on? What, what was Vladimir Putin trying to do?

John Healey (2:11)

Well, you mentioned the spy ship Yantar, which I exposed before. This is part of the same secret operation that President Putin wants to operate covertly in and around our waters and those of our allies. It's part of a, what they, they call their googy team. It's a deep ocean research capability and it's designed to be able to survey pipelines and cables in peacetime, but then sabotage them in conflict.

BBC Newscast Host (2:45)

And we should be clear, these are cables that carry information around the world that the UK sends out there. This is our gas pipelines from other countries.

John Healey (2:53)

These are the. These are the. The networks on which our way of life depends. You know, half of our gas comes through pipelines under the sea. Trillions of pounds each day is part of the trade. 99% of our telecoms and our data comes through cables under the sea connected to the uk. So if an adversary like Putin holds those at risk, then they threaten the way that we live, they threaten the lifeblood of our economy as well as our security. And so what I've done today is to set out a very substantial UK Armed forces operation alongside Norway and other allies over more than a month, which has demonstrated that we are alert to Putin's threat. Despite the Middle east commanding a lot of people's attention, we haven't taken our eye off the primary threat to the uk, which is Russian aggression and rising. And it's a. Last time it was the spy ship on the surface. This time it was a combination of three submarines. And we tracked them 247 for over a month with allies to make sure that we are able to say to Putin, we see what you're doing, we're watching you. And it means also that if there is ever any damage to our cables or our pipelines, we know we can hold Putin to account. We know he can't deny it. And it also demonstrates to people, I think, that despite full focus on the Middle east, you know, armed forces 247 are also doing the job of protecting our homeland.

BBC Newscast Host (4:36)

Yeah.

John Healey (4:37)

And dealing with the threats that Putin poses to the wider NATO flank.

BBC Newscast Host (4:41)

So. So my reading of your statement this morning was that there was one submarine sentence near Britain, and that was sort of a decoy that was meant to distract you while these other two submarines looked at our cables to kind of scope them out. Is that right?

John Healey (4:54)

Well, I think first, you know, Putin would have wanted us to be distracted by the Middle East. And whilst we're defending our people, we're defending our allies in the Middle east, we're not being distracted from what he gets up to. And, yes, we, we first saw a. An attack submarine and a cooler class submarine, part of the Russian Navy. There was likely to be a decoy, but we picked up the other two secret submarines, part of the Googie operation. And we tracked both the attack submarine for as long as it was in and around our waters and those of our allies, until it retreated, headed back to port, north into the Russian High north. And then we continued to track the two Googie submarines so that we were able to watch them every step of the way and make clear to them they were being monitored, they were being watched. And the covert operation that Putin plans

BBC Newscast Host (5:52)

had been exposed, but they still felt that they could hang around in our waters for a whole month.

John Healey (5:58)

Well, they did, but then, because surely

BBC Newscast Host (6:02)

if they were, if they were threatened by us or impressed by our show of force, they would have done a U turn much quicker.

John Healey (6:10)

Well, their purpose, remember, was a secret operation that we exposed was a covert operation that we watched 247 and a very substantial operation that demonstrated the, if you like, the capabilities of our own armed forces to Putin as well as, I hope, to reassure our public. So, you know, we had more than 500 personnel involved in this and that was just the UK effort alone. We had 450 hours flown by hour. Special submarine hunting aircraft, our submarine hunting frigate sailed several thousand nautical miles. They did it in the most treacherous extreme high north conditions. So it demonstrates, if you like, to Putin, we've got the capability to detect what he does, we've got the capability to deter and expose what he does. And if necessary, we will have the capability also to respond if indeed there's any damage to our pipelines or our

BBC Newscast Host (7:09)

cable and that there's no evidence of that as a result of this, no

John Healey (7:13)

evidence of any damage. But we with allies will make sure that is verified. And our UK undersea network is one of the most resilient around. We have a very rapid repair rate in conjunction with the sort of commercial operators. We've got pre planned rerouting if there is any damage to any cables or pipelines. But despite having a really, if you like, resilient infrastructure in the uk, the threats are increasing and this is a demonstration that we're on it. We're tracking those Russian threats. We've got the capability to detect them, to track them, and if necessary, we've got the capability also to respond to them. And we will.

BBC Newscast Host (7:57)

Would you expect a Russian response to what you've done today?

John Healey (8:00)

Well, we'll see. I called out their spy ship Yantar back in November, I think, I think I got a bit of abuse from the Kremlin in some of the, some of the statements from spokespeople. But we'll, we'll see. The important thing for me is that Putin planned a covert operation. We've exposed it and he cannot now deny the threat that he poses to our undersea infrastructure.

BBC Newscast Host (8:30)

Why are you going public about this? Because I assume The Russians knew what you were doing, so. So the Kremlin will have got the message. Why are you laying it on this thick with the public as well?

John Healey (8:41)

Because I want the public to recognize that despite the all eyes on the Middle east, understandably, and this noisy, dangerous conflict that we've got out there, there are other threats that our nation faces and that our form, our forces are alert to those, tracking those and dealing with those 24, 7. And it's also way of reminding people that we're rightly concerned about the Middle East. We want to see a ceasefire there. We want to see the stability returned and the. The lifeblood of shipping restored through the Strait of Hormuz. But the primary threat to the UK remains rising Russian aggression. That's a threat to us. It's a threat to our NATO allies, and it's why NATO is developing its deterrence, its defense, and it's now bigger, stronger and better funded than it was before Putin invaded Ukraine.

BBC Newscast Host (9:37)

That raises about a million more questions. So I'll try and cram in as many as I can in the time that we've got.

John Healey (9:41)

You.

BBC Newscast Host (9:43)

You talk about the situation in the Gulf. Did this operation. Oh, did this operation have a name, by the way, or is that top secret?

John Healey (9:50)

No, we've just. We've just.

BBC Newscast Host (9:52)

It's just.

John Healey (9:52)

We've just. We've just done it.

BBC Newscast Host (9:55)

Yeah. Okay. It doesn't have a name that classic journalists were always looking for the, for the label. Doing this. Did that prevent us doing things that, as a country, you would have liked to do in the Gulf and in the Middle east in the last month?

John Healey (10:06)

No, because we've got forces that are capable of doing more than one thing at once. I'm proud of what we've done in the Middle East. It was weeks before this current conflict broke out that I put extra planes, radar systems, air defense systems and personnel into the Middle east so that we could defend British bases, British people and British allies. We stepped that up when we seen the. If you like, the scale and the indiscriminate nature of the Iranian response. And we've now got a thousand UK personnel across the Middle east, beyond Cyprus, playing a part in defending our interests and our allies there.

BBC Newscast Host (10:45)

So there wasn't an opportunity cost from working in British waters for what you would have done in the Middle East.

John Healey (10:50)

No. 1. And the same time, this operation that I've exposed today ran for over a month, almost simultaneously with the current conflict in the Middle east. And I hope it's a reassurance to the British public That we've got an armed forces that are on it, that are capable of mounting what was a very substantial operation with allies and in particular, you know, a big tribute to Norway. We work particularly closely with Norway and the defense minister there, the government minister there, the government share our dedication to deal and confront with the threat that Putin poses to the, to the North Atlantic. And I remember when I was last in Norway and I've been there two or three times now, before Christmas, the Norwegian defense minister hosted us. I coordinated the meeting of 10, what we call, Jeff, allies, Nordic and Baltic countries. And we war gamed half a mile inside a Norwegian mountain. Exactly this sort.

BBC Newscast Host (11:51)

In a bunker.

John Healey (11:52)

Exactly a sort of mountain bunker. It's the, one of the operational headquarters of the, of the Norwegians. But we war game together the 10 defense ministers, the responses that we needed to make to this type of Russian hybrid activity.

BBC Newscast Host (12:09)

And were you doing various scenarios in that war game? Like, was there an incredibly serious one? I mean, it's all serious, but I mean, a really, really dramatic one.

John Healey (12:16)

It's all serious. It can all have serious consequences. And the point about this is to recognize that Russia poses this rising threat, that its level of activities are increasing. So over the last two years, we've seen by nearly a third the increase in the number of Russian vessels encroaching on our wider waters. It's the same for other NATO allies,

BBC Newscast Host (12:40)

which suggests that your deterrence up until now has not been working because the Russians keep sending more ships, which means they're not scared.

John Healey (12:47)

We're still going to stop. But the point is that we, but it's increasing. We, we track it. Well, the Russian, the Russian aggression is increasing and not just the threat it poses to our undersea infrastructure. The number of incursions of Russian planes into NATO airspace, the cyber attacks that we and other nations are facing, including from Russia, is clearly on the increase. And it is why that we're working more closely with allies. It's why you had Keir Starmer about a month ago in a big speech at the Munich Security Conference, said, look, hard, power is the currency of the age. It's why as a government, we're putting now record increases of investment into defense, because that's required to deal with the increasing demands on defence and the increasing threats that we face.

BBC Newscast Host (13:37)

How do you describe what situation we're in with Russia now? Because some people say, oh, this is looking a little bit like we're kind of in a weird war with Russia now. How would you describe what it is?

John Healey (13:48)

I would say first of all that, Putin has the capability to certainly wage hybrid warfare on us. Its Googie operation is designed to do that, as I say, to be able to map and survey our undersea infrastructure now in peacetime, but also sabotage it, damage it, destroy it in conflict. And that's one reminder of the threat that Putin poses. But the important thing for me as Defense Secretary, and it's why I work so hard on the close alliances with nations like Norway and with the US and within NATO, is that we don't defend alone, we don't tour alone. And if we're forced to fight, we won't fight alone. And that's the great strength of the, the NATO ally alliance.

BBC Newscast Host (14:40)

Was the US involved in, in this operation?

John Healey (14:43)

Well, I'm not disclosing the details of other allies the Norway, the Norwegians have confirmed. Oh, so they're, they're part of the operation. They like US, had their P8 submarine hunting aircraft involved. They had one of their submarine hunting frigates involved. You know, and the historical Lunar House agreement that I've signed now, the UK with Norway, which includes that biggest ever warship export deal from Britain, means that we're two nations now that will increasingly put together a combined anti submarine force of frigates, of aircraft, of autonomous systems that will do what we've done as two nations together for decades, but reinforce our ability to defend NATO.

BBC Newscast Host (15:35)

Northern flank sounds like a special relationship,

John Healey (15:38)

but with Norway this time I regard it as special. I regard the degree of cooperation, the degree of understanding, the shared determination we have to recognize that the high north is a priority area. It's an area of greatest threat from Russia and that with Putin increasing his Russian levels of activity and potential threat to us and our allies like Norway, we meet that best by not just rebuilding the strength of our forces as we are with the record investment, but we do so by strengthening our alliances. And so you've seen, I think from Keir Starmer and this government over 20 months rebuilding, setting out to rebuild our hard power. So last year we put 300 million more into shipbuilding in this country. We've doubled to £4 billion the amount we're putting into autonomy. You see hard power, you see the development of strong alliances and the exercise of sure diplomacy. And it's that combination that helps make Britain more securer at home, but also stronger abroad.

BBC Newscast Host (16:52)

You say you want to strengthen alliances. Is Donald Trump weakening them?

John Healey (16:57)

Well, so I don't, I, I make a point not of commenting on his social media post.

BBC Newscast Host (17:05)

What, even when he threatens to end an entire civilization?

John Healey (17:08)

Well, he, he, that was A, that was, that was clearly something that as a government we took issue with. I think the point for me is when I talk with his Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth, when I sit next to him at NATO defense ministers, he's very clear, as President Trump has been with our prime Minister, that the US remain totally committed to NATO and to Article 5. But they require, rightly in my view, but they require and are pushing as hard as European nations to do more within NATO, so take on more of the leadership with Ukraine, which we are as the UK and do more to invest in defense, which we are, and we will do more as the UK but also to do more of the, if you like, the heavy lifting within NATO to defend the North Atlantic and the wider European area. And I think this operation is a very good example of exactly that.

BBC Newscast Host (18:12)

So you want, you don't want to talk about Donald Trump's social media posts. I can understand that. But we could talk about something that the U.S. administration is doing. They have sent the vice president, J.D. vance, to Hungary to re. To support Viktor Orban's re election campaign. Viktor Orban is okay, maybe not necessarily an ally of Russia, but he's quite pro Russia, not that enthusiastic about helping out Ukraine. Is it okay for the vice president of our strongest ally to go and do that this week of all weeks?

John Healey (18:41)

Well, I mean, that's for them to explain. Surely you can have a view on it. Not for me to explain or get into. We'll see what the election result is in Hungary. Hungary does remain an important NATO member. And my focus as Defence Minister for the UK is to make sure that we play our leading part, as other nations want us to do, in building up the European strength of NATO, responding to the challenge from the US to do more. And, you know, I think we've demonstrated that by exposing the, not just the nature of Putin's covert operation, but by setting out the detail of how substantial our armed forces with allies has been in order to deal with those threats.

BBC Newscast Host (19:30)

Is there a world where in the very near future, British military personnel are helping to keep the Strait of Hormuz open? And I mean keeping it open by being there doing stuff.

John Healey (19:42)

First and foremost, we need a, the ceasefire to hold. We want it sort of strengthened so that it becomes a long term peace and that in the end will be the best circumstances in which the opening of the Strait of Hormuz takes place. Because fundamentally, it's about the confidence of commercial ship owners, crews, insurers that their ships can have safe packets of passage. What I think is a useful contribution to building an international multinational understanding about the circumstances necessary and the potential options for helping make that happen. A useful contribution is a sort of conference that our Foreign Secretary convened last week with around 40 nations that our military headquarters convened this week, and also the sort of discussions the Prime Minister is having at the moment with Gulf countries in the Middle east, talking about the importance of the Strait of a Moose being open to shipping without tolls, and the importance of this fledgling ceasefire, which we hope will be reinforced by the Vice President's discussions and negotiations over the weekend.

BBC Newscast Host (21:00)

Because to me, that all sounds like Britain is putting a lot of effort into the diplomacy. And actually you're not really thinking about a military component of that.

John Healey (21:10)

We've been discussing and looking at the development of military options with other nations, but fundamentally this needs to be diplomatically led. Fundamentally, it needs to be in the context of a ceasefire that holds and that it's in the context also of a stability that's restored to the wider region.

BBC Newscast Host (21:33)

And is your understanding of the ceasefire that was agreed between the Iranians and the US that Lebanon was included in that and Israeli attacks on Hezbollah were. Include. Were meant to be incorporated into the ceasefire?

John Healey (21:46)

The best thing I can go on is the public statements, but I would say to you, what.

BBC Newscast Host (21:51)

You don't have more to go on than what has been said in public.

John Healey (21:54)

If, if, if we want stability, if we want a settled Middle east, then Lebanon included in the ceasefire. We want to see it included in the ceasefire. We condemn the escalation of the. The conflict in Lebanon at the moment. And we will look to the further negotiations which are set to take place over this weekend. And I'd want to see that cease far extended to include Israel and Lebanon.

BBC Newscast Host (22:25)

People might be a little bit concerned that you have to go off the public statements of, of. Of the US and Iran and that you don't have sort of your own intel or your own information from the Americans about what's going on. Are you just being sort of reticent to, like, spill the beans, or is it that. That. That we don't know?

John Healey (22:42)

Well, we're having a public discussion.

Podcast Advertiser (22:44)

Right.

John Healey (22:44)

Which is why I'm referring to the public statements.

BBC Newscast Host (22:46)

Oh, so if we were in the pub privately, maybe you'd say a bit

John Healey (22:49)

more in the pub privately. Oh, well, you'll have to try. You'll have to try me in the.

BBC Newscast Host (22:54)

Invite you to the.

John Healey (22:55)

You have to try me in the pub.

BBC Newscast Host (22:56)

And we're recording this at half past one, so it's far too Early. Okay, that'. Okay. I see your point. Just on the UK contribution to security in the Gulf, can we talk about HMS Dragon? Are you happy with how the whole HMS Dragon thing played out? I'm just thinking about the fact that the Prime Minister announced it was going and then it was quite a long time before it actually left port, then it took ages to get there. That's geography. You can't do anything about that. And now it looks like it's already being recalled back to port for repairs. I mean, are you happy with that as kind of the storyline around HMS Dragon in the last month?

John Healey (23:33)

Well, first of all, I'm really proud of what our forces are doing, of course, out in the Middle East.

BBC Newscast Host (23:39)

Yeah, they're in harm's way.

John Healey (23:40)

Yeah, of course, Dragon is a part of that. But remember, weeks before this current conflict erupted, I put in extra jets, radar systems, air defense systems, electronic war systems into the Middle east to reinforce our defenses. So we have from day one been able to fly defensive missions to protect British people, our bases and our allies out there. And as we've seen then, the nature and extent of the widespread retaliation from Iran, then we've stepped up and altered what we've done and Dragon was a part of that. And if you look at the, if you look at the speed in which the navy and the civilians did six weeks work in six days to get Dragon out of port, and if you look at the way that destroyers like Dragon generally have to go in regularly for routine maintenance, which is what's happening now, they'll go in for the regular maintenance, they'll upgrade their systems. That's happening now. And they'll fix minor faults and that's happening now.

BBC Newscast Host (24:51)

And it's just a fact of life.

John Healey (24:53)

It's, it's a, it's a fact of, fact of life. You can't run aircraft, submarines, military aircraft. You can't run military personnel 24, seven indefinitely. And that's just part of the way that you have to sort of suppose

BBC Newscast Host (25:05)

if you have, if you have more of all those things, then you've got more resilience. But as you said, you are investing.

John Healey (25:09)

Yeah, look, no, but nobody can deny, you know, we've, we've had 14 years in which our forces, including the Navy, have been hollowed out and underfunded. We don't turn that round overnight. You know, the fact that under the last 14 years the number of warships were cut, the number of mine hunters were cut, the renewal of our nuclear deterrent was delayed, but we are putting more into British shipbuilding now, 300 million more last year. We're now doubling the amount of investment we're putting in to autonomy to £4 billion. So we are turning that down. We are rebuilding it. But when it takes six years to build a warship, you can see that that won't happen overnight.

BBC Newscast Host (25:51)

You can't click your fingers. Just two very quick questions because you've got to go back to your day job. Are we sending one of our aircraft carriers to the US to mark the fourth of July, as has been speculated?

John Healey (26:02)

Well, what the, what the Prime Minister's said, I've said as well, is that we will deploy our, our military where the threats are greatest. And at the moment our priority is in the high north. This operation I expose today has demonstrated that, and we've announced, and he announced back his Munich Security conference speech that we would be sending the Prince Wales UK carrier as NATO's flagship, leading a NATO High north deployment. We'd be sending it to the high north and help patrol that northern reaches of the Atlantic. And it's also why we're playing the lead role now also in NATO's new mission, Arctic Century. We're recognizing the threats in the high north, recognizing the role and responsibility of the UK can play in leading the sort of operations to protect our northern flank.

BBC Newscast Host (26:52)

And last question, totally different note, totally different tone. There's a big profile of you in the New Statesman a couple of weeks ago, and I very much enjoyed reading it while I was on holiday. The most startling fact in that was that you carry a bottle of HP Sauce with you everywhere. Is that true?

John Healey (27:07)

Is that the most startling?

BBC Newscast Host (27:09)

Well, I mean, there was lots of other interesting things in there, but.

John Healey (27:12)

Well, look, it is true. I've always done it, I guess, you know, as a politician's answer would be. I'm an mp, so I carry HP Source. But actually, the hard truth of is I love HP Source. Yeah. And these days you too often get a brown sauce substitute.

BBC Newscast Host (27:30)

Yeah.

John Healey (27:30)

So you've got to take the real deal. You got to take your own.

BBC Newscast Host (27:33)

I'm just wondering, how do you get around the 100 mil liquids thing in airports? Because you have your own plane, don't you?

John Healey (27:38)

No, well, not always, no, But I, you know, I have had it confiscated.

BBC Newscast Host (27:45)

By whom?

John Healey (27:46)

By, by, by airport security.

BBC Newscast Host (27:48)

Okay.

John Healey (27:50)

In which case I just get another one.

BBC Newscast Host (27:52)

Yes. Anyway, that is a very different from the, from the rest of the subjects that we'll be discussing today. Yeah. Thank you very much. And come back next time you want to update us about, about the safety of the world.

John Healey (28:02)

Thank you.

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Defense Secretary (John Healey) (28:42)

Is the war in Iran close to ending? I'm Tristan Redmond from the Global Story podcast. Iran and the US have agreed to a conditional two week ceasefire. Donald Trump says the US has met and exceeded all military objectives, while Iran says the ceasefire is a humiliating retreat for Washington. So what's actually been agreed? And is this ceasefire likely to end the war? Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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BBC Newscast Host (29:44)

So that was my conversation with John Healey, the Defense Secretary. Here are my three main takeaways. Number one, Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin know all of this already. So him going public today is aimed at you. It's so that you know about it. Number two, did you notice that whenever he talked about the UK's relationship with Norway, he was absolutely glowing? And then when he Talked about the UK's relationship with the United States, he was much more vague. So I will let you make up your own mind about what that might reveal about the state of the special relationship. And thirdly, he was absolutely adamant that the UK's response to the situation in the Gulf between the US and Iran was not hobbled in any way by this big operation that the UK was mounting to shadow these three Russian submarines. He wants to be very, very clear about that. And that's all for this episode of Newscast. Thank you very much for listening. We'll be back with another episode of electioncast very soon. Bye bye.

John Healey (30:42)

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

BBC Newscast Closing Host (30:44)

Well, thank you for making it to the end of another newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC sounds. And then, without having to do anything else, our meandering chat will miraculously make its way to your phone.

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