The Government Prepares To Fight Asylum Hotel Ruling

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast – "The Government Prepares To Fight Asylum Hotel Ruling"

Date: August 22, 2025
Host: Adam Fleming
Guests: Alex Forsyth (BBC Correspondent), Dominic Casciani (Home & Legal Affairs Correspondent), Luke Trill (Pollster, More in Common)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Newscast, host Adam Fleming and his BBC colleagues dive deep into the week’s major story: the government’s reaction to a court ruling regarding the use of the Bell Hotel in Epping for housing asylum seekers. As the government prepares to appeal the decision, the panel examines the legal, political, and societal ramifications of the ruling, what it reflects about the current state of British politics, and the evolving public mood around immigration, asylum, and national identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Update on Gaza Famine and International Response

• Brief update at the start: The UN-backed IPC has declared famine in Gaza City, prompting international condemnation and denials from the Israeli government. (00:43)

2. Format of the Episode

• This episode was recorded live for both the podcast and BBC 5Live, offering listeners an inside look at how Newscast is produced in real time. (01:40)

3. The Epping Asylum Hotel Ruling

Background:

• A court ruled that asylum seekers could no longer be housed at Bell Hotel in Epping; they must be moved out by September 12.
• This has led to a flurry of councils considering similar actions to prevent hotels in their areas from housing asylum seekers. (06:14)

Legal Complications:

• The government wasn’t initially involved in the court case because they failed to intervene early enough, arriving in court "with the legal equivalent of a begging letter". (08:24, Dominic Casciani)
• Now, the government (via Home Secretary Yvette Cooper) is seeking to become a party to the case and appeal the judgment, but there’s “no guarantee they’re going to get an appeal.” (08:58, Dominic Casciani)
• Memorable analogy:

  “It's a bit like when you're six years old and your mum has said, you can't have a biscuit and you'll just go, oh, please, can I have a biscuit, please? But you're not actually entertained… The Government is kind of in that position at the moment." — Dominic Casciani (09:28)

Political Calculations:

• Asylum hotel policy is "exceptionally unpopular", with opposition rising by 20 points over two years. It’s now one of the top issues for the British public, even overtaking the NHS. (10:01, Luke Trill)
• This fuels councils and political parties to take positions against asylum hotels.

  “You can understand why, if you’re a local council… you think, I’ve got to get on this bandwagon of trying to get the asylum hotels out of my area. And it could all sort of spiral very quickly.” — Luke Trill (11:17)

Judicial Rationale & Protest:

• The judge’s decision wasn’t about protests per se — courts do not factor in unlawful action (protests) when making rulings.
• The legal focus was on planning law: the hotel breached planning controls, which in turn sparked protests and perceived decline in the area’s character. (12:04–14:29, Dominic Casciani)
• Notable legal observation:

  “The Council’s case was that Somani Hotels, the owners, were acting unlawfully by having moved asylum seekers in… That unlawful action in turn, had led to another unlawful action, which were the protests and then the arrival of lots of police and the fear of crime. And all of this amounted to what's called a loss of immunity… which is basically planning talk for the character of the area is changing and becoming less nice." — Dominic Casciani (13:47)

The Political "Whack-a-mole" of Asylum Policy:

• Attempts to find solutions (like deals with France or alternatives like barges/military bases) face public and logistical hurdles.
• The visibility of hotels and small-boat crossings makes the issues hot political flashpoints. (14:36, Alex Forsyth)

4. Statistics and the Asylum Accommodation Backlog

• As of the latest data: 32,059 people in hotels, using around 200 hotels; numbers are down from a peak of 56,000 but remain flat recently. (17:29–18:07)
• The problem persists due to a backlog in both processing and now appeal courts, with over 50,000 cases awaiting appeal. Until resolved, hotel usage continues. (18:11–19:30, Dominic Casciani)

5. Public Attitudes and Community Schemes

• Listeners ask why not use community placement, like the Homes for Ukraine scheme, which had wide support (19:30–21:17).
• There’s a difference in public acceptance: Ukrainians seen as "genuine need," community control was key. Opposition is higher for perceived uncontrolled or imposed schemes.

  “A lot of this debate comes down to community and control… when we've tested community sponsorship to that exact point… it actually significantly reduces opposition to asylum if it's a scheme where it's local people saying we want it rather than it being imposed.” — Luke Trill (20:55)

6. "Flag Wars" – National Identity and Social Trends

• Growing trend of flag displays (St George’s Cross, Union Jack) sparked by a grassroots social media campaign (Operation Raise the Colors).
• Councils divided: some see it as public pride, others warn of vandalism and safety issues. (22:09–23:54)
• Analysis: While there is pride in national symbols, most Brits are "a little bit eye rolly" about overzealous flag displays. (24:05, Luke Trill)
• Political figures race to align with the trend — notably Robert Jenrick, though he chose the Union Jack, suggesting a "one nation" over "England" message. (25:05–25:27)
• Historical context: Flags as identity markers, sometimes reflecting social insecurity or anxiety over national identity. (26:16–27:19, Dominic Casciani and Luke Trill)
• Key insight:

  “One of the big fault lines now in British politics is whether you think British identity is disappearing nowadays or whether you think it's been strengthened through diversity. And… putting up the flags everywhere is an expression of that anxiety.” — Luke Trill (27:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Confusion:
  "For whatever reason, [the government] didn't find a barrister in time to get into court." — Dominic Casciani (08:24)

• Public Opinion Swing:
  "Opposition to that temporary accommodation in people's neighbourhoods has risen by over 20 points over a two year period." — Luke Trill (10:02)

• Policymaking Paralysis:
  "It's a bit like whack-a-mole for the government." — Adam Fleming (14:29)

• Community Solutions:
  “Community sponsorship… significantly reduces opposition to asylum if it's a scheme where it's local people saying we want it rather than it being imposed.” — Luke Trill (20:55)

• Flag Trends and National Identity:
  "Most Brits, they like seeing the St. George's cross, they like seeing the Union Jack... I suspect, though, that the median member of the public is a little bit eye rolly about this slightly." — Luke Trill (24:05) "That anxiety point is a really key one... one of the big fault lines now in British politics is whether you think British identity is disappearing nowadays or whether you think it's been strengthened through diversity." — Luke Trill (27:33)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:43 — Gaza famine update and international reaction
• 02:47 — Episode setup: Newscast live on 5Live
• 06:14–08:13 — Explaining the Epping Hotel ruling, government intervention
• 08:24–09:40 — Why government wasn’t a party to the initial case; legal hurdles
• 10:01–11:43 — Polling on asylum policy; rising public opposition, political incentives
• 12:04–14:29 — Legal rationale for the ruling; role of protests, planning law
• 14:36–17:29 — Political “whack-a-mole”; practical challenges; alternative accommodations
• 17:55–19:30 — Current stats and backlogs in hotel use and appeals
• 19:54–21:17 — Listener question; Homes for Ukraine vs. asylum hotels; community control
• 21:29–27:33 — ‘Flag wars’: origins, public attitudes, political and social meaning

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Conclusion

This Newscast episode delivers an in-depth, nuanced look at how one local court ruling on an asylum hotel has rapidly transformed into a national political and societal flashpoint. With legal explanations, public opinion trends, and lively exchanges about national symbols and political posturing, the episode captures the complexity of asylum, immigration, and national identity in Britain in 2025. The hosts’ conversational tone, anecdotes, and real-time data bring the issues to life while remaining accessible for listeners.

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Transcript

[Luke Trill]

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[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

[Alex Forsyth]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello, thanks.

[Adam Fleming]

For your messages about the previous episode of Newscast about the start of the Israeli incursion into northern Gaza, which was focused on Gaza City. The development today on Friday, as I'm speaking to you now, is that the ipc, which is the UN backed body that measures global hunger, has now declared that there is a famine in Gaza City and there is the risk of famine in other parts of Gaza very soon. That's prompted another round of international condemnation from people like David Lammy, the British Foreign Secretary. But it's also prompted another round of denials by the Israeli government that there is any famine happening at all and increased pressure on the Israeli government to do more to let food aid into Gaza. So a repeat of that sort of thing as well. Now, you might have noticed that this week I've been moonlighting. I've been filling in for Matt Chorley on five Live between two and four o' clock every day doing his politics show. And we thought why don't we take advantage of that and record an episode of Newscast Live on 5Live so listeners of 5Live can get an insight into what you listen to every day and also just hear the podcast being made in real time. So that is what you're going to hear and the format, yeah, lots of newscast regulars and we're going to look back at kind of the big story of the week, which is the ruling about the asylum hotel in Epping and just all the consequences that have flown from that and what it tells us about politics and life in Britain in 2025. So that is what you will hear next. But what you will hear first, and you are the second people to hear this because the first people to hear it were listeners of 5Live is the brand new newscast, trademark opening titles.

[Alex Forsyth]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC Fat Boy.

[Dominic Casciani]

Slim and me in the classro our violin lessons.

[Adam Fleming]

I was the tattletail in the class.

[Ray Winstone]

Can I have an apology, please? I trust almost nobody that daddy has.

[Luke Trill]

To sometimes do strong language next Time.

[Alex Forsyth]

In Moscow I feel dulu with no.

[Luke Trill]

Salulu Take me down to Downey street.

[Adam Fleming]

Let'S go have a tour.

[Alex Forsyth]

Blimey.

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio, which today for one day only is also the 5Live studio, because we're doing this episode of Newscast on 5Live. Joining us down the line is Alex Forsyth. Hello, Alex.

[Alex Forsyth]

Hello, Adam.

[Adam Fleming]

You're probably on the road to do any questions for Radio 4, aren't you?

[Alex Forsyth]

Yeah, well, I've actually arrived, so I have been on the road, but I'm currently sat talking to you from outside a village hall in the village of Staggersey in Somerset, where we are doing any questions from tonight. Beautiful day to be here, I've got to say.

[Adam Fleming]

Have you got any Somerset facts that you will deploy in the intro for any questions?

[Alex Forsyth]

I can't give too much away now, otherwise no one's going to listen to my fun facts at the top of the program. But they're on 10 dirks. We are not far from Hinckley Point C, which is obviously mid construction, the big new nuclear power station. So I've been doing a little bit of digging into that which has proved quite interesting.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, and here in the studio with me is Dominic Casciani, home and legal affairs correspondent. Hello, Dom.

[Dominic Casciani]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

You've been in a lot of courts this week, haven't you?

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My bum's hurting from sitting still all day, to be honest.

[Adam Fleming]

I was going to ask you, do you have a tactic for like when the judgment is published and sometimes it's like 80 or 100 pages?

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

And you need to get to the news straight away and find the nuggets. What do you do?

[Dominic Casciani]

I wing it around. Great.

[Adam Fleming]

Slightly too honest that answer.

[Dominic Casciani]

No, no, no, there's. Okay, there's two things you need to do. The first thing is you need to be really, really across the story first. So you've got a good understanding of what a judge is likely to. To rule one way or another. So that when a judge says yay or nay, you know why he or she has said that? Because you've got the arguments in your head critically as well. Judges are quite good these days at structuring their judgments with basically an introduction and.

[Luke Trill]

Yeah.

[Dominic Casciani]

And then.

[Adam Fleming]

And finally I find them surprisingly easy to read, actually.

[Dominic Casciani]

Well, I'm going to sort of brag a bit here. I've spent a little bit of time behind the scenes sort of like lobbying.

[Adam Fleming]

Judges as have really to make their judging. Judging more page turner y.

[Dominic Casciani]

Well, I said, I. I said to one recently, he said to me, he said, how can we make our judgments easier to understand for journalists? And I said, well, write them like a news story. And he thought I was joking.

[Adam Fleming]

Put the most important bit first. If you'd like to get involved in this episode of Newscast, which you actually can in real time because rather than it being recorded and you downloading it, it's live on 5Live. You can message us on 85058 or WhatsApp us on 0808-590-9693 or you can tweet us on X with @5Live as the handle. And also joining us here in the studio is Luke Trill, who is a pollster. For more in common. Hello Luke.

[Luke Trill]

Good afternoon.

[Adam Fleming]

So I know you've been away on holiday the last few weeks. We won't delve into your holiday snaps which are available on Insta, but I was just wondering, do you think, and you're a bit of like a political veteran as well from various other jobs, do you think the whole nothing happens in August thing has just gone now? It's been a busy August.

[Luke Trill]

It's over. And I sort of naively said to the team there'll be nothing to ask the public around over August. Okay, last August was a bit different. There was a new government and then, and then I got back and yeah, everything happens over the summer. And I think particularly as well, what's been interesting this summer is Reform UK have clearly realized that it is a good time to try and get news and stuff out there, which is why you've seen them having this sort of regular drumbeat of stories as well. So it's not just there's more happening. I think it's that politicians are learning how to exploit it as well.

[Adam Fleming]

Alex, I know you've been on the road, so maybe not reading your email while you're driving, but we just had that statement from the Home Office and Yvette Cooper, the Home Secretary, saying they're going to get involved in the appeal against the court ruling that said the Bell Hotel in Epping couldn't be used for housing asylum seekers. I suppose Yvette Cooper had to do that, didn't she? Politically and practically, yeah, I think that's completely right.

[Alex Forsyth]

And I'll let Dom do the kind of legalities because it sounds to me like from my limited legal knowledge that it's a kind of two step process that they first have to ask to be a party in the case and then they can actually ask to appeal the judgment. But I do Think there was a bit of a sense of inevitability about this for the reasons that you say, because firstly, this potentially this judgment, which was an interim judgment, but it said that the people who were currently being housed, asylum seekers in the Bell Hotel in Epping, had to be moved out by 12 September. That obviously posed a bit of a practical headache for the government because not just where it was going to put those people, but then immediately afterwards we had this flurry of councils saying that they were looking really closely at this judgment and are considering what they might do next. That is, there could be other councils that decide to use the courts to say, we don't want to have hotels in our area that housing asylum seekers. So therefore, what would the government do when it came to accommodating these people? So there was a practical aspect to it as well. And then from the kind of political side, I think what's been interesting is what the Government have been saying this morning is that part of this, they think, is that it shouldn't be up to the judiciary, it shouldn't be up to judges and the courts to decide where the government can house asylum seeking. So they're kind of trying to argue it on a democratic mandate as much as anything else. But it's perhaps not surprising that immediately the Conservatives, who were kind of quick out the gates welcoming the court decision, saying it was a victory for local people, are now saying that the Government's wrong to challenge it. Of course, under the Conservatives, hotel use reached a peak.

[Adam Fleming]

And Dom, just explain why it was that the government, the government of the uk, were basically sort of bystanders in this court case, rather than being like right in there in the first place.

[Dominic Casciani]

Because they didn't take the opportunity to get involved early enough. They were put on notice that this case was being brought by Epping Forest District Council and they were going for an injunction against the owners, who are called Somani Hotels. And they, for whatever reason, didn't find a barrister in time to get into court. So we had this weird situation this week where a very, very, very, very experienced barrister who works, does a lot of government work, you know, turned up on Tuesday and literally with effectively the legal equivalent of a begging letter to.

[Adam Fleming]

The judge, saying, please, can we be involved?

[Dominic Casciani]

Please can we be involved? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, where we're at now is a slightly weird situation because, you know, the government, you know, obviously from an optics position, has decided it wants to be seen as appealing, trying to appeal or challenge, but they're actually at a very early stage. There's no guarantee they're going to get an appeal. It's a bit like, forgive the crass analogy here, but it's a bit like when you're six years old and your mum has said, you can't have a biscuit and you'll just go, oh, please, can I have a biscuit, please? But you're not actually entertained.

[Adam Fleming]

Doesn't get you any closer to the biscuit.

[Dominic Casciani]

No, no, it doesn't. And the Government is kind of in that position at the moment. They've got to get the Court of Appeal to just listen to the basic principles about why they can appeal before they can actually appeal.

[Adam Fleming]

Luke, talk about the sort of calculations Yvette Cooper will be making and saying this, actually, it's sort of the most she can say. But it's not a great deal, is it?

[Luke Trill]

No, it's not at all. And I think you know this. We know that the hotel's policy is exceptionally unpopular, exceptionally with the public.

[Adam Fleming]

What does that mean?

[Luke Trill]

I mean, a very sort of clear majority against. And what's interesting is that when we asked in 2023, we said, what would you think about asylum seekers being kept in temporary accommodation, such as hotels in your local area? It was actually basically split just slightly more, maybe two points more opposition than support. That has totally shifted. And opposition to that temporary accommodation in people's neighbourhoods has risen by over 20 points over a two year period. And that has coincided, which in opinion.

[Adam Fleming]

Terms is a lot, very quickly.

[Luke Trill]

That is a big shift. You know, public opinion doesn't generally shift that quickly absent major developments. But alongside that, what we've seen over the past year is the salience of immigration and asylum issues.

[Adam Fleming]

In other words, how much people care about it and notice it as a thing.

[Luke Trill]

Exactly. We ask every week, what are your top issues? What are the top issues facing the country? And cost of living is way out ahead, as it has been since the pandemic. But what's happened basically since the start of this year is you've seen that creep up of immigration and asylum issues and. And this week, for the first week, levels of immigration just overtook the NHS for the number two spot. So the Government's in a real bind here because it's an issue that people care about a lot and think is important and they're very opposed to the hotel's policy. And you can understand why, if you're a local council, you've seen all of these other councils falling to reform. You think, I've got to get on this bandwagon. Of trying to get the asylum hotels out of my area. And it could all sort of spiral very quickly.

[Adam Fleming]

You can see where the incentives are for everyone to just leap on it. Dom, we had an interesting conversation earlier on this week on newscast when we were kind of digesting the ruling. And it was about actually where these protests outside the Bell Hotel featured in the judge's mind when he made this ruling and said it had to be shut down. Just explain to us to what extent it was about the protests.

[Dominic Casciani]

Well, it wasn't about the protests directly for a simple legal reason that the courts will not be swayed by unlawful action, because by definition, then the courts would be taking into account something which is illegal. The courts are about the law, which is actually just. As an aside, Alex has mentioned that the Home Office is a bit cross with judges, suggesting there's a democratic problem with this that will raise a lot of eyebrows among the judiciary and the legal world today, because judges enforced the law. And what happened on Tuesday was about the law, wasn't about the.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, it's a bit. It's reminiscent of Brexit. Do you remember the Mail had the front page saying enemies of the people? And then Liz Truss, who was Justice Secretary at the time, got it in the neck for not defending the judges from that front page.

[Luke Trill]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

So we're actually back in that territory kind of.

[Dominic Casciani]

Well, potentially, and we certainly are with some political figures, and there's a lot of concern among within the legal world about some of this rhetoric. But let's break down what the judge said. Basically, what the judge said is if there are lawful protests taking place outside some hotel being used for asylum seekers. Crack on. The court is not going to look at that and see that as a lawful reason to intervene and injunct the use of that hotel to accommodate asylum seekers. That's lawful protest. You have to put up with it whether you like it or not. In a democratic society, it's the price to be paid. If there is unlawful protest, that is not good enough reason either. But this is where it gets a little bit complicated and a little bit nuanced. The Council's case was that Somani Hotels, the owners, were acting unlawfully by having moved asylum seekers in. And the unlawful action there is, they were breaching their planning controls. Now, the hotel owners deny that. And that unlawful action in turn, had led to another unlawful action, which were the protests and then the arrival of lots of police and the fear of crime. And all of this amounted to what's called a loss of immunity or an arguable loss of immunity, which is basically planning talk for the character of the area is changing and becoming less nice.

[Luke Trill]

Right.

[Dominic Casciani]

And on those specific grounds, the judge said if the council's got an arguable case that the area is becoming less pleasant, that is a breach, potentially a planning law, and therefore I'm going to temporarily lob this injunction in until we can resolve whether or not the hotel is acting lawfully or not. So the protests kind of coming indirectly.

[Adam Fleming]

But, Alex, it just shows you that when it comes to immigration, asylum, the housing of asylum seekers, it's a bit like whack a mole for the government, isn't it?

[Dominic Casciani]

Like they.

[Adam Fleming]

They do one initiative, like doing the quite innovative deal with France, the one in, one out deal, which means that if people come over the Channel, they can get deported back to France and in return somebody will be brought over legitimately and legally. That was quite hard for them to get in place and they were quite pleased with it when they did. But yet then this pops up over there.

[Alex Forsyth]

Yeah, I think that's completely right. And I think that is why the government makes this case that when it comes to this whole issue of people crossing the Channel on small boats and where they then go, they completely acknowledge and actually claim there is no one thing that's going to fix this. And their hope is that there's a whole range of measures that they are doing. So it's like that one in, one out deal with France, which at the moment is just a pilot scheme. The initial numbers are expected to be quite small, but they're hopeful that will ultimately be a deterrent. The stuff they're doing about toughening the criminal regime and the way that they can approach some of the smuggling gangs. They hope eventually all of this is going to come together and start to bring those numbers of small boat crossings down and then subsequently the use of hotels down. But I think the kind of problem for them is that these two issues in particular, so the small boat crossings and the use of hotels, they've become just these really visible, tangible focal points for public frustration about this issue. And with the hotel use, for example, I mean, the government's position is that it wants to end the use of hotels. But. But what Yvette Cooper, the Home Secretary, is saying today about this judgment is that she thinks that needs to be done in an orderly fashion. That is, she doesn't want it just to be the case that the courts say you can't have people here, and then the government's stuck with, where do they go? But the bit behind that is that where do they go? Because when there have been alternatives considered. So, for example, when the previous administration was looking at disused military bases, or do you remember the barge, the Bibby Stockholm, and that there were some people housed on the barge, that attracted an awful lot of local opposition as well. And when you look at other alternatives, so it might be private rental sector or houses of multiple occupation in local areas, yes, they can become points of tension or points of concern. But there's also the bigger problem that there is just a real strain when it comes to housing, and there are lots of people on housing waiting lists and local authorities are already really struggling to find accommodation for families. So, you know, I think the kind of what we have referred to as a political headache for the government about all of this because they are under such significant political pressure, it is a really big practical challenge as well. And I think that is why we have seen ministers out this week in the wake of that judgment about the Bell Hotel in Epping being, you know, not being able to say, well, what are, what are the alternatives? It's kind of like they just, they're very hopeful. And I mean, they would say, if you speak to people in government, they say they're pretty sure. But there is undoubtedly an element of hope that eventually all of the different things they're doing are going to start to have an impact.

[Adam Fleming]

We had a message from Bill who says, please, can you tell us how many hotel beds are being occupied by asylum seekers? That's a more reliable figure, he says, than the number of hotels renting. 200 hotels sounds better than 400, which is what it was before, but not if the number of hotel occupants has gone up. And Dom, I happen to have the number in front of me right now because the Home Office released it yesterday. It's 32,059 people in hotels. And that's 200ish hotels.

[Dominic Casciani]

That's right. And 300 fewer than in March.

[Adam Fleming]

That's more than at the time of.

[Dominic Casciani]

The election and lower than the peak, which was 56,000.

[Adam Fleming]

So it's gone down and then up then down and it's going down, but staying flat.

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

Or something.

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean, don't do graphs in a podcast is what I just learned from that podcast.

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah, but I mean, look, a lot of this is about what's happening with the backlog. It's not just about arrivals. So if you think about, you have cases coming into the asylum system, they have to be processed. Only so many can be processed in one go. So you never get a bit of a backlog at any given time. The backlog got bigger and bigger after 2018 because of policy changes in the Home Office, then the pandemic, then a rush of arrivals when the pandemic ended, and then, critically, decisions the Conservatives took not to process cases in the hope of sending people to Rwanda. That led to an enormous backlog. Labour came in, said, right, we're going to deal with this because they know they've got to deal with that because only by getting the backlog down and processing people either through to settlements as genuine refugees or basically saying they have to be removed because they haven't got a case. Until that, until that happens, you have to put these people somewhere and they've run out of housing, so you put them in hotels. The big problem though, Adam, now, is that the, the backlog is coming down. So that's progress by the Home Office, because they're taking decisions faster. But there's a new backlog in the appeal courts. 50 odd thousand cases there, people saying, hang on a second, so until the appeal courts deal with that, you're not going to see the hotels come down.

[Adam Fleming]

Bob has messaged us from Knighton saying living in a hotel is far from ideal for anybody. People would be better housed in the community where possible. And if local residents were encouraged to open their homes to a refugee, it happened for Ukrainians, didn't it? There might be less room for misunderstandings. Bob, with a very optimistic view of human nature there, based on what people are then saying about the alternatives of housing people in houses.

[Luke Trill]

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting that when you look at the Homes for Ukraine scheme actually continues to command massive public support. And that was over 100,000 people that came to the country. So it's not quite as simple as people oppose refugees, people oppose asylum. There is something specific about channel crossings, which is it's seen as, well, we don't know who's coming in, no way of vetting it, and also backdoor, but.

[Adam Fleming]

It'S also breaking the rules.

[Luke Trill]

And people will say in focus groups, you know, how do we know they're the people most in need, even whilst they express sympathy or empathy for people crossing. But the interesting thing about Homes for Ukraine was not only that people understood the conflict, they could see there was genuine need. It did something else. It put communities in control because rather than it being government saying, I'm going to, you know, put people in this hotel in your area, it was people coming forward and saying, that's what we want. And actually a Lot of this debate comes down to community and control. It's not just that people are worried about levels of immigration, they are, but it's the way in which the policy is delivered. And when we've tested community sponsorship to that exact point, from the message there, it actually significantly reduces opposition to asylum if it's a scheme where it's local people saying we want it rather than it being imposed.

[Adam Fleming]

Interesting. Right, now for something completely different. Alex, when you were driving to Somerset today, did you see more St. George's flags or Union Jacks than you might normally expect? Or maybe you weren't measuring it because you didn't know I was going to.

[Alex Forsyth]

Ask and I was on the train.

[Adam Fleming]

I always think of you in the car.

[Alex Forsyth]

Yeah, no, I often am in the car, but today I was on a really busy train. I just warn you, if you're going from London to the southwest on a Bank holiday weekend, bag yourself a seat early if you can.

[Adam Fleming]

And also, please do not try and hang up a flag by a railway line. That is not safe.

[Dominic Casciani]

I have some kind of. Any questions?

[Adam Fleming]

Branded car.

[Alex Forsyth]

Oh, yes, I have my own personal fleet of. No, I don't know. We give you public transport wherever we possibly can anyway, so I didn't really have the chance. But I totally take your point, that this is something that is happening in lots of communities. Right. A social media trend, but lots of flags popping up all over the place.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, yeah, there was an amazing moment here on the Chorley show on 5 Live, which I've been filling in all week, and on Monday I spoke. No, actually, it was on Wednesday, so I don't know what day it is. Accuracy. I spoke to our reporter in Hereford and Worcester at Tom Edwards, and he painted this amazing, amazing picture of just how many England flags there are in his patch at the moment.

[Tom Edwards]

If you drive around Worcestershire right now, these flags, Adam, are everywhere. So they're on street lights, they're on cars, they are flying from houses. Some people have painted the Cross of St George on Mini roundabouts. Some people have painted the cross on broadband cabinets. Those greed, those green street street cabinets. It's took off, but it's caused a real headache for the local authority. So Worcestershire County Council, they're controlled form, they've said they won't be removing the flags from lampposts. They've called the flags an important symbol of national pride. But what they are doing is discouraging people from doing it in the first place, because, you know, it might not be all that safe to climb up a lamppost. Using a ladder or a cherry picker to try and attach a flag onto it.

[Adam Fleming]

And this all started because there's this campaign group called Operation Raise the Colors. Although actually saying campaign group, it's more just some people on Facebook and sending messages to their mates saying, let's put up all these flags. And they've started raising money, they're doing some crowdfunding. And this phenomenon is kind of spreading all over the place. And then you get the backlash to it. For example, Tower Hamlet's council saying, hang on, lampposts aren't public property, they're council property. You're technically vandalizing our stuff. And the flags get taken down and that then creates some tension. Luke, as somebody who looks the British public in the eye every day, what do you think is behind this phenomenon? Is it more than just a really popular Facebook group?

[Luke Trill]

Well, look, I think it is. And I think we might have spoken about this before on the very good antisocial podcast, One of My Other side.

[Adam Fleming]

Hustles, this time on Radio 4.

[Luke Trill]

There is no doubt that flag wars have become a feature of our politics. Earlier in the summer, we were talking about reform councils and their battles to stop official buildings flying the Pride Progress flag or even the Ukrainian flag. You've now got the flip side of that, is where should you be displaying the Union jack or the St. George's Cross? And look, most Brits, they like seeing the St. George's cross, they like seeing the Union Jack. They want us to be proud of who we are as a country. We haven't polled on this yet. We will be doing. I suspect, though, that the median member of the public is a little bit eye rolly about this slightly. We must have them on every lamp post and we must have them everywhere. You know, us Brits want to celebrate the flag, particularly during national events or when the football is on. I'm not sure this approach of trying to hang them from everything that is basically a poll is going to work.

[Adam Fleming]

Polling of a different kind rather than the ones you're used to. Alex. And of course, Robert Jenrick, the Shadow Justice Secretary, loves, some people might say he loves a passing bandwagon, but he's posted on social media that hoisting a flag proudly himself, although I noticed he went for a Union Jack, not an England flag. So he obviously wants to be one nation rather than England.

[Alex Forsyth]

Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. I mean, I do think there is something utterly fascinating at the moment with this thing that's going on on social media when you have like just politicians trying to almost like be the quickest off the mark or keen to kind of outdo each other when they can quite literally attach their flag to whatever cause it is that they think is going to get them some public support. I mean, I guess you could argue that politicians have always done that, right? You know, they rely on public support to get them to where they, they want to be. But I think there is something that's going on at the moment, and this is absolutely not limited to Robert Jenrick, but if you just as I do keep half an eye on that political social media and it is like, you know, social media video post battle for who can get there first to back whatever the thing is that they think is going to prove popular. It's quite extraordinary.

[Dominic Casciani]

Dom, I think there's a lesson from history here, from Northern Ireland, not in terms of paramilitaries, I stress that at the outset, but I used to work in Northern Ireland on and off in the early days of my career for the BBC and I have a lot of love for the place and the people there. But one of the things you notice when you first go in as what BBC Belfast used to call blow ins, people like me who come from London is you notice the painted flagstones, pavers, the curbstones, red, white and blue in unionist areas and then the Irish tricolor in nationalist areas. And that is very much linked to a sense of really trying to articulate national identity. And very often it's also linked to a sense of uncertainty about what national identity is in politically uncertain times.

[Adam Fleming]

It's a sign of insecurity.

[Dominic Casciani]

Yeah, it can be. For some people it's a sign of pride as well. But it really strikes you when you first go there because you think, why do these people need to do this? I don't see this on the streets of Nottingham or Leeds or wherever else at home. And I've been very strict this week to see flags being used in a context of trying to project something.

[Adam Fleming]

And also people need to be careful what they wish for because the times I've been to Northern Ireland, at election times, every lamppost is covered in pictures of candidates. And so what starts with flags can become pictures of politicians. And I'm not sure people want their mugs all over the place.

[Luke Trill]

Look, I think that anxiety point is a really key one. We did some research earlier this summer which basically found that one of the big fault lines now in British politics is whether you think British identity is disappearing nowadays or whether you think it's been strengthened through diversity. And I think this, the appearance of people putting up the flags everywhere is an expression of that anxiety of people saying if we don't do something, British identity is going to disappear. And then on the other side, you've got people saying, well, you know, British identity is about diversity and that the flag is important. But there are lots of other things as well. And I think we're seeing that play out now in real time.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. And Alex, classic newscast. I wanted to ask you loads of stuff about all this speculation about what's gonna be in the budget. Cause every day there's a new story. But in classic newscast lore, we've talked about one thing for too long because we got too into it, because everything is interesting when you look at it in enough depth. So we'll say that for another episode in new season.

[Alex Forsyth]

I'd just say I don't think there's gonna be any shortage of opportunity for us to speculate about what might well not be in the budget ahead of November. To be perfectly honest, there's going to be plenty of chat about that.

[Adam Fleming]

Alex. Enjoy any questions.

[Alex Forsyth]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

Dominic, thanks for your analysis all week.

[Dominic Casciani]

Thank you very much.

[Adam Fleming]

And Luke, thanks for coming in as well.

[Luke Trill]

Thanks for having me.

[Alex Forsyth]

Newscast, newscast from the BBC. From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe? Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on [phone]. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.

[Ray Winstone]

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcome, that car should define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.