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- [00:00]
BBC Newscast Host
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- [00:06]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [01:23]
Laura Kuenssberg
Hi everyone. As you know, every now and again on newscast, we like to bring you a really long old chat, the full version of one of the conversations that we have with some of our interviewees. And on Saturday 3rd January 2026, I went to Downing street to sit down with Keir Starmer, who wanted to talk about why 2026 will be better than his political nightmare of 2025. Can he turn it around? What might happen in Ukraine? What does he really want to do with our relationship with the eu? And what about that troublesome friendship with his political chum Donald Trump? Here is my conversation with Sir Keir Starmer, as he hopes to strike a much more cheery tone and put the bad times of 2025 behind him. Prime Minister, 2026 could transform or perhaps even terminate your leadership. So I wonder, what's your New Year's resolution?
- [02:25]
Keir Starmer
Well, I'm looking forward to 2026. I think it's going to be the year when we turn a corner as a country. A lot of the decisions we took in 2025 will come into force effectively in 2026. And I think that for many people who've waited 16, 17 long years for their living standards to improve, for their public services to improve, they need now to feel the change. And that's what 2026 is going to be about. We've talked about renewing the country. That will become a reality. And each month there will be actions delivered which will make a material change to people across the country. So this is very much turning the corner, whether that's on the economy, on education, on defense and security. It's a year to look forward to. It's a year that I'm optimistic about and I think it will reflect the hard work that we've put in already. You seem very turn the country around.
- [03:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
You seem very cheerful and some people might be almost surprised that you're optimistic because you've had a very torrid time. I mean, I thought your resolution might be that you're still sitting in that seat by 2027.
- [03:37]
Keir Starmer
Well, I will be sitting in this seat by 2027. And if this long form interview, we can try it again in January of next year as well.
- [03:44]
Laura Kuenssberg
But you know, and everyone watching knows that there are even some people on your own side who think 2026 might have to be the end. Some of them want you out. How are you going to stop that happening?
- [03:55]
Keir Starmer
Well, I think what's really important is that we are clear about what we have achieved already. There's a huge amount that we've achieved in terms of the economy. Wages have gone up more quickly in the first year under this government than in the first 10 years under the previous government. Inflation is coming down and the bank of England are clear that it's on track to meet target by spring or summer of this year. We've had six interest rate cuts in a row. So it's now dropping at a rate which is the highest pace of drop for 17 years since the crash, in fact. And of course, the IMF are clear that we had the second or likely to have the second highest growth in the G7 in 2025. On top of that, obviously, we've done a lot of work on education, on free school meals, on breakfast clubs, towering down on child poverty. So there's a huge amount that's been done and that leaves out of account the cut to NHS waiting list gone down by 300,000, 5 million extra appointments. And so people are always focusing, as happens in politics, on other things that might have happened. But actually, if you look at what's already happened, we've got a lot to be Very proud of. I'm really pleased, as we turn into 2026, some of the things we're legislating for that take time, will now come on Stream in 2026. And that's why I am looking forward to 2026. I'm optimistic about turning the corner, which is good for the country and we'll.
- [05:25]
Laura Kuenssberg
Talk a bit more about the economy in a second. But I just wonder if you want to acknowledge really the hole in a way that you are in, because in September we had a bit of a similar conversation. You said, look, I just need the space to do the job. Give me time, you'll show people. And since then, actually, your ratings have got worse. More of your plans had to be ditched by your political decision making. Even at the Royal Variety Performance, someone impersonating you was booed. Now, by many measures, you are historically unpopular, even more unpopular than Liz Truss. Do you acknowledge that at the beginning of this year?
- [05:59]
Keir Starmer
Look, I'm not surprised that people are frustrated. I completely get that. The truth is, since the crash in 08, most people haven't seen their living standards improved. They haven't seen their public services move in the right direction, they've seen them move in the wrong direction and they've lost trust in politics. So when we went to the electorate in 2024 saying our manifesto pledge is change, many people said, yes, I want that change, I'm fed up. But then what happened is that people wanted the change to come more quickly. I actually really understand that. Because if, for example, you were 30, let's say by way of example in 2008, when the 08 crash, you've waited, you're now 47 and you will feel, well, a good chunk of my life has gone without things getting better. If you were perhaps 50, you would be near retirement now. You'd say, I want things to happen more quickly. So I actually do understand the frustration. My job, I was given a five year mandate to change this country around and I said we'd do it in a serious way with long term measures that would actually benefit the country. Country, not slogans, not easy answers, not all the things that failed so miserably over the last 14 years of the last government, but to do it differently. And that's what we're doing.
- [07:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
But isn't it also the case that there have been an awful lot of unforced errors in your government? This is not just about people's impatience, which you say you understand. I mean, even just in the last few days, I wonder, are you sorry that you wrote you were delighted that a British Egyptian activist, Ala Abdelfattah, was back in the UK when he'd previously said killing any colonialists, especially Zionists, was heroic. He also said there was no genocide against the Jews by the Nazis. Are you sorry you welcomed him back to the uk?
- [07:54]
Keir Starmer
Those comments are abhorrent and I condemn them utterly. So let's be really clear about that. As I made clear, I didn't know about those comments at the time of welcoming Al Fattah to this country. But what I would say, just stepping back from it, Laura, is, as you know, with consular cases, one of the jobs of the British government, all British governments, not just this British government, where someone is being treated in an improper way in another country, if they're a British national, is to take action to try to alleviate that situation. And that's why I acted in this case. And actually, previous prime ministers acted in exactly the same way in the actions they took to try to get him released, because that's what happens in consular cases.
- [08:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
But it's almost impossible to understand that no one in the government had bothered to check what he'd said before. And then that the Prime Minister of this country says he's delighted to welcome somebody back who'd expressed those views. Are you sorry you did?
- [08:49]
Keir Starmer
Well, of course I regret that. And your point that somebody in government should have known is one I've made myself to the appropriate team because I do think I should have been made aware and I wasn't made aware, and that is a failing within the system, which is why we're carrying out a review. But to meet your challenge, yes, it's a failing within the system. It shouldn't have happened and I wasn't very pleased about it when I found out. Hence, we're taking remedial action.
- [09:21]
Laura Kuenssberg
Let's then talk about the economy in a bit more detail. You've already referenced it. Now. You promised that you would use the power that you have in this building to get the economy growing. But on one of the most fundamental measures of that, it's becoming harder for people to get a job. Unemployment is going up and many people in the business community say that's because you made a basic mistake at the beginning, because you made it more expensive to give someone a job and rising unemployment is the consequence. They're right, aren't they?
- [09:53]
Keir Starmer
The number of people employment has gone up. The number of people who are inactive and now looking for work has gone up. That's a good thing. But we obviously need to meet the Challenge of unemployment. And we will meet that challenge of unemployment. I'm particularly concerned about young people who are unemployed. And that's why we put in place a number of measures to ameliorate that situation. But I've long believed that on the economy, the most important thing was to stabilise, to make sure that we've got growth in the system which we hadn't had before. And that's why I'm really pleased the imf, which looks across the board at different countries, is likely to predict that 2025, we were the second highest growth in the G7. We're creating the conditions for further growth and for me, that's the most important thing for the economy.
- [10:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
But if you have made the right decisions, why did the very latest figures show that we have the lowest investment compared to other comparable countries? That's what the latest figures say. And again, on that most basic way that people experience the economy, their job, trying to find a job, that's becoming harder, you say you'll meet the challenge of that. What does that mean? How are you going to help?
- [11:09]
Keir Starmer
We've had record private investment into this country, 250 billion pounds, which is a record. And of course, we've put in £120 billion of capital funding from the government. At the same time, we've changed the rules on planning an infrastructure to make it easier for infrastructure projects. And again, if you look at. Well, is that having an impact on the confidence of business? The FTSE ended on an all time high in 2025. I'm not saying we're there by a long shot, of course I'm not. What I am saying is we are turning the corner as we go into 2020, just at the very end, and this will change the confidence in the economy and the way the economy works.
- [11:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
But just at the very end of 2025, the £31 billion deal that you had hailed, with Donald Trump signing it at Chequers, that was put on ice. And a lot of businesses, frankly, we hear from them all the time, are really hacked off with one of the things that you. You've done. And I just wonder why you think it is that the economy is not grown in the way that you hoped it would. Because your critics can give a long list. They can say, jacking up taxes, they can say, more regulation, making it more expensive to hire people. Why do you think it's been more sluggish than you hoped? Because we both know that's true.
- [12:30]
Keir Starmer
Yeah. Well, let me first push back on the America deal, because There are key components that deal which are in place and safeguarding jobs right now. So we got the best deal in relation to tariffs on car exports to the us. It's hugely important. And around the world, I think you would acknowledge, most other countries say that they wish they'd been able to get the deal that we got. On your second challenge, I know there are plenty of people who say, in relation to tax and the economy, I wouldn't have done that.
- [13:05]
Laura Kuenssberg
A bit more than that. They really hacked off, you know, pubs are banning Labour MPs from being allowed in.
- [13:10]
Keir Starmer
Hear me out. Because the question on the economy is, or the easy question on the economy is to sit back on the sidelines and say, I wouldn't have done that. The question that counts, the only question that counts is, if you wouldn't have done that, what would you have done instead? And that's the question nobody wants to answer. When it came to tax increases. No government wants to increase taxes, of course they don't. But the question is, what was it that we put those tax increases in for? And we did it to stabilise the economy, to make sure we could invest in our nhs, hence waiting lists are coming down. Satisfaction is going up to invest in our infrastructure structure, to make sure we could roll out child care, for example, and to bear down on child poverty. All of which will benefit the economy in the long run. But the easy thing, the easy thing is to sit back and say, I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have done that. I get that. That's an easy sideline thing to do. The question in government is, if you're not going to do that, what would you have done instead? And that's the question nobody wants to know.
- [14:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
But the question now is also, how do you address the question? Consequences. And again, let's just ask again, because I know that people really care about this. So many people watching this. One of the questions that comes into their head again and again is, what job is my kid gonna get? What job's my grandchild gonna get? Youth unemployment is going up, student debt is sky high, rents are sky high. If you were under 30, under 40 in this country, there's a lot of evidence that says they're looking at any of the mainstream parties in the Labour Party, they're going to the Greens, they're even going to reform. Why would a young person look at your government and think, you know what? They've got my back.
- [14:49]
Keir Starmer
Because we're laser focused on young people and giving them the future that they deserve and we've done a number of important changes in my view. The first is to take down the target that 50% of young people should go to university and replace it with a target which is two thirds should either go to university or have a gold standard approach, apprenticeships, because I really want to push apprenticeships. I have Nothing against the 50% target for those going to university. It worked well for a number of young people, but we don't value apprenticeships enough, in my view. We need to make sure they're as highly regarded, highly weighed. An example of that would be we've put investment into Wilver, into Anglesey, the small modular reactor there, and an AI growth line alongside it. I went up to talk to the sixth form college, the technical college, further education college up there. The day we made that announcement, these were 16 to 19 year olds. And I think when we turned up, they rather wondered what we were there to do, as 16 to 19 year olds do. But when they began to appreciate that the future they had seen for themselves, which in North Wales they thought would be to have to leave the place where they were brought up, the place they love, because it would be the only way to get a job and they appreciated, because of the action we were taking, they would have a good, well paid, secure job there. You could see their faces change.
- [16:17]
Laura Kuenssberg
There are a lot of people in your party, even some people in your own cabinet, who quite openly suggest that actually you should do something much more radical to help the economy, is that you should go pursue a customs union with the eu. And you've ruled that out many times. Do you still rule it out because it feels like your government's been warming up to that idea a bit?
- [16:38]
Keir Starmer
Well, I've always been clear that we need a closer relationship with the EU that is in our national interest and we've taken important steps towards that with the eu. UK reset, and it is a reset. Relations between the UK and the EU are in the best position they've been for 10 years. And that has meant we've already taken steps.
- [17:01]
Laura Kuenssberg
But what's next?
- [17:02]
Keir Starmer
We've already taken steps on food and agriculture to align with the single market. That's the sovereign decision that we have taken. I think we should get closer and if it's in our national interest, in our interest to have even closer alignment with the single market, then we should consider that we should go that far. We're already aligning on energy, reconnecting to energy in Europe, on emissions, but I think the single market further alignment, as I say, if it's in our interest to do so. We should take that step.
- [17:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
So what do you mean by that? So countries like Switzerland and Norway have access to the single market, which is one of the biggest economic trading zones in the world, a very important one. But leaving a single market was one of the cornerstones of leaving the eu. So what exactly do you mean by being closer to the single market? Because anyone else who has access has to follow their rules and they also have to allow freedom of movement where an unlimited number of EU citizens could come once again and live in this country. So what exactly do you mean?
- [18:09]
Keir Starmer
So what I mean by that is, if you look at the deal we've already done with the EU on food and agriculture, we are aligning our rules so that we can access the single market. So that's a sovereign decision that we've made as a government that is in our interest to do so. What I'm saying is there are other areas where we should consider whether it's in our interest to do the same and align with the single market. Now, that needs to be considered on a sort of issue by issue, sector by sector basis. But we've already done it with food and agriculture, and that will be implemented this year. That'll be another two turning the corner moment as we get closer.
- [18:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
But what would you be willing to give up? If you make the judgment that you know what it's best for a business to align in a different industry, whether that was in car manufacture or whatever, what would you be willing to give up and what would you be willing to pay?
- [18:58]
Keir Starmer
Well, we take a sovereign decision whether we align or not and where it's in our interest to do so. That's a sovereign decision.
- [19:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
But you know that Brussels drives a hard bargain. They're not going to give you anything for free.
- [19:09]
Keir Starmer
Well, no, I accept that, but we've made good progress already. I think it's in our national interest to go further. What I would say about the customs union is that I argued for a customs union for many years with the eu, but a lot of water has now gone under the bridge. I do understand why people are saying, wouldn't it be better to go to the customs union? I actually think that now we've done deals with the US which are in our national interest. Now we've done deals with India which are in our national interest. We are better looking to the single market rather than the customs union for our further alignment. And it wouldn't be in our interest now to give up.
- [19:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
Would you be willing to revisit freedom of movement, allowing EU citizens with no limit to come to the UK Again.
- [19:57]
Keir Starmer
No, but we are looking at a youth mobility scheme, which will be for young people to travel, to work, work to enjoy themselves in different European countries, to have that experience. Both our young people going to Europe, Europeans coming here, we've committed to that in principle. That is a good thing. I do think young people should have that opportunity. The question now will be, what are the numbers, what are the ages, what's the duration of the.
- [20:23]
Laura Kuenssberg
And it's going to cost 570 million pounds.
- [20:26]
Keir Starmer
Well, no, we're in the negotiations with the EU at the moment as to what that looks like. But have we committed in principle to young people having a limited period of time when they can travel and work and experience other European countries? Yes, we have. I think that's a good thing. That is not the return to freedom of movement. We're not going back to freedom of movement. But I personally think that young people having that opportunity is a very good thing.
- [20:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
Many people listening to you saying, we need to be closer to the eu, for a lot of people who voted to leave the eu, you who voted for Brexit, many of whom then voted for you in 2024, they're going to think, hang on a minute, you're betraying the very things that you voted for and you misled them. Because now what you're suggesting again, is that it's your political judgment to creep back more closely to the eu. That's what this is, isn't it?
- [21:12]
Keir Starmer
No, in our manifesto, we're very clear about this. We said that we wouldn't rejoin the eu, but we would seek a closer relationship with the eu. That is exactly.
- [21:21]
Laura Kuenssberg
But you're talking about getting closer to. To the single market.
- [21:24]
Keir Starmer
Exactly what we're doing in accordance with our manifesto. And that's the right thing to do. We're not trying to reverse the referendum. One of the reasons we've been able to reset with the EU is because both we and the EU have decided we're not just looking back and picking over the bones of Brexit. We're now looking forward on this. But what I would say is this, that what is becoming increasingly apparent is the falsehoods that were peddled by Nigel Farage and others at the time of the Brexit referendum. That promise that all you had to do was leave the EU and immigration would go down. Then we had the Boris wave where it quadrupled. All you had to do was leave the EU and you'd have £350 million a week for your NHS. Well, it hasn't materialed. All you'd have to do is leave the EU and all your red tape would be gone t that to any business that's trying to trade with the eu. So our manifesto promise was not to reopen this, not to seek to rejoin the eu, but to have a closer relationship that is in our national interest and that is what we're pursuing. And because of the way that we're conducting this, which is not shouting and screaming and the politics of melodrama, but just call quietly, seriously getting on with the diplomacy, we have got a much better relationship with the eu, much better trading relations, much better understanding when it comes to defence and security.
- [22:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
You sound relaxed about raising this issue again when it's been a very toxic issue in British politics for a long time. But you mentioned their immigration and for your leadership to, you know, get yourself together, get yourself out of the doldrums in the polls, which. Which has been very serious over the last 18 months. You need people to have faith in you, don't you?
- [23:11]
Keir Starmer
Yes, of course.
- [23:11]
Laura Kuenssberg
And you promised people that you would smash the gangs. Now, the numbers of small boat crossings actually has started going up again. The number of people being housed in asylum hotels, which you've condemned as a terrible idea for everybody concerned. For those asylum seekers and the communities involved, the numbers have been going up again. You're not remotely succeeding in your mission to smash the gangs, are you? I mean, even you say asylum hotels, where your promise is to end them by the. Close them by the end of the parliament, that's 2029, it's another three years.
- [23:42]
Keir Starmer
Well, on asylum hotels at their height, there were 400 hotels and now there are about 197. Now, some of that, some of that was before we came into power, I acknowledge that. But I think it is important with the hotels to just remind ourselves what the sole cause of the hotels was. The last government didn't process asylum claims. This was an absurd policy. So you had tens of thousands of people that had made their way to Britain, to our country, and they were not being processed. Now, the net result of that is, if they were genuine refugees, they couldn't be advanced. If they had no right to be here, they couldn't be returned. So you have this growing pool of people who had to be accommodated. It's the most absurd policy to ever have been conceived. Now, the only way in the long run to reduce this is to whack through those, process those claims and make sure that we make the determination if people shouldn't be here, they're removed. I'm really pleased. We've removed 50,000 since we've been in office. These numbers are record numbers for the best possible part of a decade, and I'm really pleased about that. But there's no alternative. I have said I want to end asylum hotels by the end of this Parliament. Well, that's what our manifesto commitment was. No, I know. And therefore I've said to the system, to the relevant departments, I want to see that brought forward, I want to shorten that. Well, as soon as possible, but no longer the end of Parliament. Bring it forward. I want us to close hotels. I think over coming months, you'll see evidence of that, because the frustration of taxpayers that because of a mess left by the last government, we've got tens of thousands of people who are in limbo, the taxpayers paying for their accommodation, because the last government wouldn't process their claims. Not good enough.
- [25:36]
Laura Kuenssberg
But that's interesting.
- [25:37]
Keir Starmer
We need to, I think, advance on the closure of asylum hotels where it was. Well, I don't want to set a date, Laura, until we're absolutely sure that we can meet that date. What I do want to say is I'm determined we'll close them. And I have pushed the departments to say I want to see that timeline brought forward, I want to see this happening more quickly. And as we turn a corner into 2026, you'll see evidence of that.
- [26:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
While the management of all of these people has proved incredibly difficult for the government, the rhetoric and the future proposals about whether people have a right to be here has certainly boiled up under your new Home Secretary. Your government might deport the children of refugees who've been born in this country who know no other home. You know, there are people in your upper party and on the left of policies who are very uncomfortable about this. Is that really the kind of actions of a Labour government led by a former human rights lawyer? I'm not sure that Keir Starmer of 10 years ago would have thought deporting the children of refugees who know no other home would be acceptable.
- [26:44]
Keir Starmer
We're not talking about deporting children of refugees, we're talking about children of peoples whose claims have failed. That's a very different proposition.
- [26:51]
Laura Kuenssberg
But if refugees countries become safe, you have said you would send them back to their home countries.
- [26:56]
Keir Starmer
One of the changes we want to make is to be able to look again at whether a country is safe, because this does change over time. You can see that in places like Syria and other countries. But just stepping up again, the refugee conventions, human rights conventions, which are really important and we will adhere to, were crafted and put into place on the basis of a model of asylum seeking that was basically an individual would flee persecution, put their hand up in the first safe country and say, please help. It's a principle we will always uphold in this country. We will always support those fleeing persecution. It's a really fundamental principle of this government. But the model, Laura, has changed. Now there are many more examples of people getting to a set of safe countries across Europe, say, and deciding which of those safe countries do I now want to settle in? Do I choose to settle in? That's a very different proposition. And we need to look at our rules because it is more, you know, it is thought to be easier to work in our labour market than other countries. We need to fix that. That's why we've taken much more enforcement action. The package that we have available, for how long you need to wait before you're granted status, the accommodation that you're put in. One of the things that I think drives people to frustration is knowing that if you're an asylum seeker and you need accommodation, you're put in accommodation at the taxpayer's expense and your own assets, your own income are not taken into account. Whereas if you weren't an asylum seeker, you were born here and you wanted accommodation, your assets and your income would be taken into account. Most people would say, that's not fair.
- [28:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
And I want to talk about what's happening around the rest of the world. And, you know, immigration is one facet of that. You need to have relationships with other countries to deal with it. But I know just before we sat down today, you spoke to President Zelensky this morning, and over the Christmas period, he said there was a 90% chance of a peace deal. Do you feel like 2026 could be the year for peace in Ukraine? Is that what people could start to believe?
- [29:15]
Keir Starmer
I certainly hope so. And obviously this starts with a caveat that none of this is certain. There's no straight road to what we all want to see, which is a just and lasting peace. I did speak to President Zelensky just an hour or so ago. I think that he's right in saying we're 90% of the way there, so that is a good thing. I think that we're probably closer now than we've been for months, if not since the beginning of this conflict. As I say, there's always a caveat with me because we can't Be certain the sticking points are one, the security guarantees. Because what is really important to Ukraine, to Europe and to the UK is that any deal, if it's reached, sticks and is lasting.
- [30:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
And do you believe that America, alongside European allies like the UK will stand ready to give a security guarantee for 15 years, 20 years? Even President Zelensky said he wants 50 years.
- [30:14]
Keir Starmer
I think that we're much further advanced on that issue than we were ever before. So serious progress on the American and on the coalition, the willing to a point now where one of the discussions, discussions we'll have on Tuesday is how do we integrate what the Americans are putting on the table with what the coalition, the willing countries, so joints, American.
- [30:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
Forces and European forces.
- [30:40]
Keir Starmer
How do we integrate that? We've had military planning, we've got military plans in place. So the question we're now on is how do we integrate those security guarantees? That's a long way further forward than we were when we set up the coalition, the willing. The other stick point, of course, is territory and Donetsk in particular. And I'm really, really clear that issues of territory have to be for Ukraine without being over optimistic, because these things can move around. I do. I mean, 2026 seems to me the year in which we could make significant progress towards peace in Ukraine. And what a difference that will make to the United Kingdom, Kingdom, because people often say to me, well, you're spending a lot of time on Ukraine. What about the issues back at home? They're directly linked. So to take energy costs, they doubled at the beginning of this conflict back in this country, they're still 40% higher as a result of the conflict. So every month through the letterbox, people are paying more because of the conflict. So it's in our interests to find a lasting, peaceful solution to this conflict.
- [31:49]
Laura Kuenssberg
And you've certainly devoted a lot of time to that. But to bring this dreadful conflict to an end, to stop missiles falling from the sky onto the heads of people in Kyiv and Kharkiv and Donetsk and the Donbass, and also to stop the death of countless soldiers on both sides, Russian soldiers too. Would it be worth President Zelensky giving up some land? And if he does, doesn't that send a worse message of all to Vladimir Putin? Doesn't that reward him and he will simply look elsewhere?
- [32:20]
Keir Starmer
We have to be really careful with Putin. He has ambition and he's put that into action. And the lesson we know is if we don't have strong security guarantees in place, we may have a pause for months or a few years. But. But he will be back at it. It has shone a torch, in my view, on the question of whether Europe has done enough in its own defence and security, not just on Ukraine, but more generally. And we've been found wanting. And I'm a big advocate of the Euro Atlantic security alliance. I think it's the most important alliance the world has ever seen post the Second World War. I'm never going to choose between the US and Europe. But do I think we become over reliant on the us? Yes, I do. And I think it's time that as European leaders we stepped up on defence and security and intelligence, not just the amount we spend, but how we collaborate and cooperate. And of course that now involves energy and cyber, because you can see how.
- [33:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
Russia is operating and you've been incredible, clear always that Vladimir Putin's attack on a sovereign country of Ukraine was wrong and ought to be condemned. What about President Trump's attack on a sovereign country of Venezuela? There are all sorts of horrors that we know about President Maduro's government, but for America to strike that country and then capture its leader, that's an action against a sovereign state that surely flies in the face of the international law.
- [33:55]
Keir Starmer
Well, at the moment it's a fast moving situation.
- [33:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
We know those facts. President Trump, the White House has said that they captured Maduro and they struck his country. So there's a lot we don't know, but we do know that. So will you condemn that action against the sovereign state?
- [34:10]
Keir Starmer
Well, I want to get all the material facts together and we simply haven't got the full picture at the moment. It's fast moving and we need to piece that together. I can be really clear with you that, that there was no UK involvement in this operation and obviously we're working in relation to British citizens and nationals who are there with our embassy, but we need to establish a full picture. I then need to speak to President Trump, I need to speak to our allies, But I don't shy away from this. I've been a lifelong advocate of international law and the importance of compliance with international law. But I want to ensure that I've got all the facts at my disposal and we haven't got that at the moment and we need to get that before we come to a decision about the consequences in relation to the actions that have been taken.
- [35:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
But we do know enough here that the US by its own admission, has struck a sovereign state. They have captured the leader of a sovereign, sovereign state. Other political leaders in this country have already condemned it. Even Nigel Farage, who I know you have a very dim view of, has said it's probably against international law. So can you say that?
- [35:23]
Keir Starmer
Well, I want to, with the government, we take this very seriously. I want to establish all the facts. That's what we're doing, working within our own teams, working with our US counterparts, and of course, I want to discuss this with allies. So I'm simply saying my preferred course of action is to make sure I've got all the facts at my disposal in relation to this and it's fast moving. We clearly haven't got those facts at our disposal at the moment, and I want to be in that position.
- [35:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
But I know that you worry about global turmoil in all sorts of different ways. By doing this kind of thing and having been accused by lots of people of multiple abuses of power, isn't your friend Donald Trump contributing to that global turmoil?
- [36:08]
Keir Starmer
Well, two responses to that. Firstly, I do think that we're in a more volatile world than we have been for many, many years. And I'm really struck by the fact that what is happening internationally has much more of a direct impact on the UK than at any time that most of us can remember. And there are various reasons for that. There are conflicts around the world, there's climate issues going on. They're all impacting back on the uk. And that's why whenever I'm abroad on international work, I'm thinking about what's the impact back on the UK in relation.
- [36:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
To your political friend making it worse.
- [36:47]
Keir Starmer
Yeah. The relationship between the US and the UK is one of the closest relationships in the world. It is vitally important for our defence, for our security, for our intelligence. It is my responsibility to make sure that relationship works. As the Prime Minister of this country working with the President of the United States, and not only have I stepped up to that responsibility, I have made it my business. And I do get on with President Trump. Now that that's a strange alliance in a way. As he often points out, we're from different political traditions.
- [37:27]
Laura Kuenssberg
He tells you it's strange to be friends with him.
- [37:29]
Keir Starmer
Well, he says on a number of occasions, you know, we come from different political traditions, of course we do. What it shows is that if you believe in the and value the partnership and the relationship because it's in our own interest to do so, then you can work with people notwithstanding that you've got differences. We do have differences views on various things. But on the other hand, I constantly remind myself that 24 7, our defense, our security and our intelligent relationship with the US matters probably more than any other relationship we've got in the world. And it would not be in our national interest to weaken that in any way. Of course, it doesn't mean I agree with President Trump on everything he says and does any more than he would agree with everything that I say or do. And we openly accept that that's the nature of the relationship we have. But we have made the relationship work. We do get along with each other and have the ability to spend time, one to one, discussing world issues. And that is to the benefit of the uk.
- [38:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
You know, too, that President Trump is somebody who a lot of people in this country, particularly a lot of people on the left, find distasteful. They don't like the fact that you are visibly having such warmth with him. But there's a broader question here about your connection, not just with your party, but also with the public. Now, it's of course, right and proper. Any Prime Minister would always spend a lot of time abroad. But it is one of the things that seems to have put distance between you and the public and distance between you and what's really going on at home. And I don't just mean the nickname, you know, never he. Do you worry, looking at your ratings, I know that all politicians do. Do you worry that it appears that voters, even Labour voters in from 2024, they just haven't warmed to you, they just don't like what they see?
- [39:23]
Keir Starmer
Well, I was elected in 2024 with a five year mandate to change the country. And that's what I intend to do to put be faithful to that mandate. And I will be judged, and I know I'll be judged when we get to the next election on whether I delivered on the key things that matter most to people.
- [39:41]
Laura Kuenssberg
But Prime Minister, here's the problem. You're not just going to be judged at the general election, you're going to be judged in May in Scotland, in Wales, right across England, in a huge set of elections that many people in your party, many people even in your cabinet, think you're going to be absolutely hammered in. And many people in the Labour Party talk very openly about that moment being a moment when it will be time for a different leader. And after junking so many plans, whether it's winter fuel or ditching your welfare plans, all these different changes of heart, I suppose the question is, do you feel really you have the authority to turn this round to survive?
- [40:26]
Keir Starmer
Well, let me take the elections first. They are a very important set of elections, very important in England for local authorities Very important in Scotland, very important in Wales. And we will fight for every vote and we take absolutely nothing for granted. I know that in these elections, as in all elections, every vote has to be earned. The question in each set of elections in England, it is who do you want as your local administration in Scotland, who do you want as the Scottish government in Wales, who do you want as the Welsh government? So they're local and national in that sense. They're not a referendum on the Westminster government.
- [41:11]
Laura Kuenssberg
But looking at the question for many people in your party, in the public, is who do you want to run the whole country? And this is a critical question for you. Are there any circumstances under which, if there was a leadership challenge to you after May, that you would walk away or would you fight it under any circumstances?
- [41:32]
Keir Starmer
Well, Laura, under the last government, we saw constant chopping and changing of leadership, of teams. It caused utter chaos, utter chaos. And it's amongst the reasons that the Tories were booted out so effectively at the last election. Nobody, but nobody wants to go back to that. It's not in our national interest. We know from that evidence what happens if you go down that chaotic path. And I'm not going to take us back to that kind of.
- [42:08]
Laura Kuenssberg
There are no circumstances under which you would walk away, even if you are challenged by your own party after May or before May. No circumstances whatsoever.
- [42:18]
Keir Starmer
I was elected on a five year mandate to change this country. I intend to deliver on that mandate. I will be judged at the next general election on whether we have brought about the change that people voted for for. I think that in 2026 we'll be able to turn the corner and show the evidence of that and then we'll press on over the coming years into that general election to deliver on the mandate that I and the party won in July 2024.
- [42:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
And I know you also passionately want to prove to people, not just in this country, but maybe around the world, that a moderate government can work in an age of what some people would say is an age of extremes. If the Labour's best chance of stopping Nigel Farage walking into this building as Prime Minister was for you to go, would you.
- [43:09]
Keir Starmer
Well, firstly, let me acknowledge the point you put to me because it's really important, that is the next election is going to be unlike any election we've seen in this country for a very, very long time. Because my strong view is it'll be a Labour government up against a very right wing proposition in reform. And that reform proposition will be a proposition of toxic divide of this country. The next election is going to be about a question of what is it to be British and I believe to be British is to be compassionate, reasonable, live and let live and diverse. And I am proud to serve our diverse country and all of its part. It is British to be diverse. And that is the essence of Britishness that will be challenged at the next election by reform. And this country, if reform wins, will be torn apart in a toxic way. And my strong sense of history tells me that if a right wing proposition like that gets in with that toxic divide and things don't go the way they pretend they will and they won't, they will move to the right, to the right, to the right. You can see this happening across Europe. This is happening. You can see the right wing propositions in Germany, in France, if you look at the elections of this year, even in Norway, in the Netherlands, in Australia and in Canada, it's been a fight between the moderates and a right wing proposition. That is what we're up against. That is the fight of our times and I intend to lead us into that fight. What I don't think will help us is if a Labour government turns into or turns back to the chaos of the last Tory government. That would gift Nigel Farage. We need to be clear. We need to turn the corner as we're turning the corner. We need to stop the drift in this country. We need to shoot down this idea that slogans, easy answers, quick fixes, shortcuts are what fixed the country. They didn't fix it. Johnson pretended to drive a bulldozer through a wall, pretending that would get you £350 for the NHS. It didn't happen. Farage pretended leaving that the EU meant you would reduce your immigration. The opposite happened. Liz Truss pretended that if you ignored all the financial institutions, you could build the economy. Everybody paid the price. We're not going back to that. That's the last thing this country needs.
- [45:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
And that there have also been many, many criticisms of you and you're chopping and changing and ditching policies and u turning on things and having all sorts of different strategies that never quite seem to stick. And it's been fascinating listening to you at length today. You seem pretty calm, you seem pretty confident. Maybe to some people's ears you might sound a bit complacent. Do you know how much political trouble you've really been in?
- [46:12]
Keir Starmer
Well, almost every week somebody writes that this is the worst week in politics. You can't have 52 worst weeks in politics. They're not feeling well, you don't win the general. You don't win the general election on Twitter. And so there is an element in which you do have to just rise above that and remind yourself, what's the change we've actually brought about? How's that made a material difference to people's lives? I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of what we're doing on childcare, on lifting children out of poverty, on getting that record investment in championing apprenticeship so young people can have the chance. We don't just walk past them. I'm proud of all that change. That's why I came into politics. I had nine years in opposition, most frustrating nine years of my life. And I wouldn't swap a single day of being in power for a decade of being in opposition.
- [46:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
Prime Minister, thank you for being so generous with your time. It's been great to be able to talk at longer length than usual. Thank you very much indeed for speaking to us today. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.
- [47:09]
BBC Newscast Host
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