The Keir Starmer Interview

Summary

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Newscast: The Keir Starmer Interview

Date: June 12, 2026
Host: Chris Mason (BBC Political Editor)
Guest: Keir Starmer, Prime Minister

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Episode Overview

This specially focused episode of BBC's Newscast features an in-depth interview with UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer, conducted by Chris Mason at Downing Street. The conversation follows the high-profile resignations of both the Defence Secretary and an Armed Forces Minister, both of whom criticized Starmer’s defence policies. Against this turbulent political backdrop, the episode explores Starmer’s controversial Defence Investment Plan, questions around his leadership, internal criticism from within the Labour Party, and whether he will contest the next general election as Labour leader.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defence Investment and Security Priorities

• Context: Starmer responds to the resignations over his Defence Investment Plan, which critics say underfunds Britain’s security as global threats rise (02:04).
• Starmer emphasizes the dangerous global context: Ukraine’s ongoing war, heightened tensions in the Middle East, and broader security instability.
• Major spending commitments:
  • Immediate increase in defence spending from 2.3% to 2.6% of GDP by 2027—“the biggest sustained increase in defence spending since the 1980s” (02:23).
  • Funding is partly drawn from cuts to overseas development aid and reallocation from other domestic departments outside a formal spending review.

Quote:

“Defence and security are my number one priority. ...I have taken the difficult decisions to make sure that we are safe as a country.” – Keir Starmer (03:44)

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2. Criticisms of the Defence Investment Plan

• Chris Mason presses Starmer on claims that the numbers don't match the rhetoric, especially with only marginal spending rises projected in later years (05:01).
• Starmer insists on future commitments to reach 3% of GDP in the next Parliament, and eventually 3.5% by 2035, aligning with NATO ambitions. He highlights Britain’s leading role in military coalitions and the nuclear deterrent as key points of strength (06:53).

Quote:

“We are a country that makes a huge contribution to NATO, not least our nuclear deterrent, ...we’re seen as a leading member of NATO.” – Keir Starmer (07:27)

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3. Handling Cabinet and Labour Party Dissent

• Mason cites specific criticisms from former Defence Secretary, current Labour MPs, and senior military officials accusing Starmer of indecisiveness and underfunding security.
• Starmer thanks outgoing colleagues for their service but repeatedly disagrees with their characterizations, describing his actions as “hard-edged” and “decisive.” (11:10–12:29)

Notable Exchange:

Chris Mason: “There’s an overlap here, isn’t there? They’re diagnosing paralysis.” (11:43)
Keir Starmer: “In terms of their comments, I’m afraid to say I disagree. ...It is decisive to take the decision outside of a spending review...” (12:17)

• Starmer defends his controversial trade-offs, noting that every department is contributing to defence increases but pledges not to cut day-to-day spending or vital services (10:13).

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4. Defence vs. Welfare Spending Trade-Offs

• Starmer responds directly to the charge that welfare spending is crowding out defence (13:57). He states the government is reforming welfare, prioritizing measures to get people into work, thus freeing up resources over time.
• Chris Mason presses him several times on whether welfare expenditure will actually fall, not just rise more slowly (14:51, 15:56).

Quote:

“We believe in getting people into work, which is why we’ve already put those measures into place that will free up resources. ...The question shouldn’t be how much benefit is someone getting? The question should be what’s the government doing to help them get into work.” – Keir Starmer (14:52)

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5. Publishing the Defence Investment Plan

• Mason asks if the Defence Investment Plan is “dead.” Starmer insists it will be published before the upcoming NATO summit and restates its focus on future capabilities (17:00).
• Starmer underlines it is vital each pound spent also boosts British jobs (17:44).

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6. Leadership, Authority, and “Chaos”

• Mason challenges Starmer using his own past words against Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, suggesting Starmer now faces similar divisions, loss of authority, and risk of chaos (18:01, 20:06):

Quote:

Chris Mason: “The Prime Minister has lost the authority to lead. ...He can’t discharge the basic functions of government anymore. And I put it to you, that is an accurate description of your predicament right now.” (18:01)

• Starmer pushes back, citing economic stabilization, public service investment, and improved NHS outcomes as evidence of his government’s effectiveness (18:27–19:05).
• Mason asks whether Starmer would, as an opposition leader, be saying the same things about himself as Prime Minister; Starmer draws a sharp contrast with Liz Truss's tenure:

“We inherited a broken economy and within two years... we’ve got to a position where the economy is stable in a volatile world. That is incredible.” (20:27)

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7. Future Leadership and Upcoming Election

• The interview closes with direct questions about Starmer’s intention to stay on as Labour leader and contest the next election (21:11–24:38).
  • Starmer gives a nuanced answer, expressing a “very deep sense of duty” and saying he would fight if challenged, but also recognizing the need to “turn things around” after poor recent election results.
  • He makes no unequivocal commitment, but reflects both determination and an understanding of the party’s current jeopardy.

Quote:

“I don’t think we should plunge the country into the chaos of a leadership election. ...But if it does [happen], I will fight. ...It’s out of a very deep sense of duty. …This is about a sense of service and duty, not vanity … not stubbornness.” – Keir Starmer (21:18, 21:28)

Chris Mason: “You will lead Labour into the next general election.” (24:17)
Keir Starmer: “Well, that’s what I want to do. ...given where we are, I need to turn that around and that’s what I intend to do.” (24:19–24:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On making tough decisions:

  “Government is about trade-offs, it’s about priorities and about making the right decisions.” – Keir Starmer (13:14)

• On trade-offs and priorities:

  “For every answer that is being suggested, the question has to be, when you’re in government… what is it then that you wouldn’t do?” – Keir Starmer (19:44)

• On serving through adversity:

  “I was elected to serve this country, notwithstanding the difficult circumstances. …This is about a sense of service and duty...” – Keir Starmer (21:28)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:04 – Mason begins grilling Starmer on Defence Secretary’s resignation
• 03:44 – Starmer outlines defence spending commitments
• 05:01 – Criticisms on inadequate defence spending in years to come
• 06:53 – Mason quotes senior military figures; Starmer pushes back
• 10:13 – Query about cuts across cabinet departments
• 11:43 – Labour MPs and party criticism; Mason asks about “paralysis”
• 13:57 – Debate: Defence vs. welfare budget
• 17:00 – Will the Defence Investment Plan be published?
• 18:01–20:27 – Challenges on leadership and authority, using Starmer’s own words
• 21:18 – Starmer addresses calls for leadership contest, vows to stay and fight
• 24:17 – Mason presses on election leadership; Starmer admits need to “turn things around”

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Summary: Tone and Outcome

The episode is tense and searching, marked by rigorous questioning from Chris Mason and detailed, often defensive yet candid responses from Keir Starmer. Starmer seeks to project himself as a determined, “hard-edged” leader willing to take difficult decisions in troubled times, even as he faces acute criticism from both inside and outside his party.

The interview ends without a fully clear commitment on leadership, but with Starmer reaffirming both his intention and his sense of duty to continue leading Labour and the country into a challenging future.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Tristan Redman]

When it comes to the World cup, does border security trump everything? I'm Tristan Redman with the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Many Africans are angry after a Somali referee was blocked from entering the U.S. fair enough. Or might it be prudent to cultivate good relations with a continent of 1.5 billion people? Listen to the Global [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chris Mason]

US.

[Narrator]

Hello? In a parallel universe, Keir Starmer was at a drone facility in the west of England announcing the Defense Investment Plan. Billions and billions of pounds to get the British military match fit for all the threats the world faces in the next 10 years. Instead, Keir Starmer is in Downing street facing questions about why not only his Defence Secretary, but also an armed Forces minister. Al Carnes resigned on Thursday, saying that Keir Starmer's decision decisions on the Defence Investment plan would leave the country less safe. And the questions were being posed by Chris Mason. So we thought we'd let you hear the whole interview because it's definitely worth listening to from Downing street and stay listening right till the end because Chris asks that classic political question of will you stay and fight the next election as Prime Minister and leader of the Labour Party? And Keir Starmer does not give quite the usual politician's answer, which is quite revealing about the situation he finds himself in. So here is the conversation between Kier Starmer and Chris Mason. And the next episode you will hear in the newscast feed is some analysis of the conversation with Chris Mason.

[Keir Starmer]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Tristan Redman]

Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Narrator]

We are in the midst of a rupture.

[Keir Starmer]

Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. Six, seven.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, it's supposed to be me as

[Keir Starmer]

a doctor, Daddy has has also a special quotation. Thinking about it like a panto helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Chris Mason]

Prime Minister, your now former Defence Secretary said that your plans that you wanted him to sign up to could leave the country unsafe. There's no more devastating a critique, is there, of a Prime Minister by a former Defence Secretary than to say that you couldn't convince him that he was wrong. How would you try to convince our audience that he was?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, let me do that. Firstly by setting briefly the context. Obviously, we're living in a very volatile world. We've got the conflict in Ukraine now in its fifth year, and we've got conflict in the Middle east, specifically Iran. That is as dangerous and volatile a world as any of us have lived in. And we absolutely have to step up to that. That requires me as Prime Minister to make hard edged decisions, hard edge decisions, and I've taken two because defence and security are my number one priority. The first of those decisions was to increase defence spending from 2.3% to 2.6% by 2027. That was a very important decision. That's the biggest sustained increase in defence spending since the 1980s. So a very significant uplift in defence spending. Our manifesto only two years ago committed us to doing that by the end of the Parliament. I brought it forward within the first year because it was my number one priority. Hard edged because a Labour Prime Minister I had to take the decision to take that money from overseas development aid. So that's step number one, a very significant. That means we're going to spend in this parliament about 270 billion pounds on defence. That's the biggest amount that's ever been spent. So that's step number one. Step number two is the defence investment plan which we're discussing. That is an additional increase on top of the increase I've already put in place. Again, a really important decision. Significant uplift in defence spending. This time particularly focused on the capabilities that we need for the future. The next generation of fighter jets, what we need with drones, what we need in terms of the next generation for the navy, and particularly long range missiles, that sort of thing. The wherewithal to allow us to fight it comes with the condition that every pound spent has to be double in the sense it goes into the spend, but it also goes into jobs in this country, higher skilled jobs. Now that's hard edged because in order to take that decision, which I have, I have reallocated resources from other departments to defence outside of a spending review. So when it comes to defence, it's my number one priority. And I have taken the difficult decisions to make sure that we are safe as a country because that is my number one priority.

[Chris Mason]

Let's unpack then, this defence investment plan, albeit obviously clearly a document that we've not seen yet publicly. Because the critique is that the words are there but the numbers aren't. So the argument is clear, isn't it, from critics that in the last few years of this decade the planned increase would amount to 0.08 percentage points at just the point that you set out in your Munich Security Conference speech of a couple of months ago, that the warning from NATO is that Russia could be ready to use military force against the alliance. In other words, the critique is the money's not there when the Risk is,

[Keir Starmer]

well, the money is considerable. As I say the first step, but not enough is that increase of defence spending from 2.3 to 2.6%. But it's beyond that, £70 billion. This is now further money. On top of that, the important question is is that going to give us the capability for the future? We had a strategic defence review. The question there was what have we got now? What do we need for the future? That's why we're investing in things like next generation fighter planes, the long range missiles. And of course this has to be seen in the context of the commitment that I've made and I keep to get to 3% in the next Parliament. That'll be carried out through spending reviews and the process and the funding. And I can tell you now that defence will be the number one priority at every spending review, including the next spending review. There's the additional commitment that I made at NATO last year which was to get to 3.5% by 2035. So they're the commitments I've made. I think if you look at the steps along the way, what you should see is these are important steps to get us where we need to be on 3% and then the 3.5% in 2035. And there are two ways. I mean some people will talk about how they're going to do it. I am evidencing how I am doing it.

[Chris Mason]

So what do you say then to some of the senior military figures who have been critical? So, Sir General Sir Richard Barons, co author of the Strategic Defence Review. This makes this country unsafe. This government led by the current Prime Minister has actively decided not to fund its own defence review because it much prefers to spend money on other things. General Sir James Everard former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander for Europe the UK standing in NATO is at all time low. These are people who know what they're talking about.

[Keir Starmer]

Well look, I have the highest respect for the individuals that you have quoted

[Chris Mason]

and they're saying there's not enough money,

[Keir Starmer]

but I don't agree. These are hard edged decisions, they're decisions that have been taken and we are seen as a leading member of NATO. There are two very important coalitions that have been formed. The first of them is to put in place the security guarantees for Ukraine. The leaders of that coalition are the UK and I'm very proud about that. Alongside France and Germany, a second coalition which is to allow safe passage through the Straits of Hormuz, a coalition again led by the UK and I'm very proud of that. And by France alongside us. So we are a country that makes a huge contribution to NATO, not least our nuclear deterrent, which of course is totally committed to NATO for the benefit of all right thing to do. But also we're seen as a leading member of NATO, particularly when it comes to this ability to put together coalitions for particular issues arising in those particular conflicts.

[Chris Mason]

How on earth is it credible that you can get to 3.5% by the middle of the next decade when the uptick towards the end of this decade is 0.0 horses 8 percentage points? That's the central critique, isn't it, of John Healey, that the numbers are fanciful.

[Keir Starmer]

Let me just take you on on that, or at least answer it, if I may. We have another spending review coming up before the end of this Parliament and defence will be a number one priority in that spending review.

[Chris Mason]

Is that not jammed tomorrow though?

[Keir Starmer]

So, no, it is very important that when I make commitments on something as important as defence, that I'm able to point to what the funding is. This particular defence investment plan is outside of a spending review. That makes conditions difficult because the strategic defence review that was carried out was intended to provide an answer to capability within the 2.5% that we had risen to on defence spending. When the defence investment plan came back, it came with a much bigger check or much bigger price tag than that. Now, rather than leave it to the next spending review, I've tackled it head on and I have taken the decision to reallocate from other departments. That's not an easy right thing to do.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about

[Keir Starmer]

that, but just to push back slightly, there will be another spending review before the end of this Parliament and I'll be very clear with you and through you, to your viewers, Defence will be the number one priority in that spending review and spending reviews beyond that because it's important to this government and it's important to me.

[Chris Mason]

Let's unpack that thought about the hard edged, as you put it, trade offs that come with these decisions. Did you manage to secure cuts from every member of your cabinet in their respective departments to help pay for defence?

[Keir Starmer]

Yes, everybody is contributing to this, every single one. It's very important that they do. What I'm not doing is taking out day to day spending because I'm not prepared to cut our public services. But every department is contributing to this. It is a collective effort, if you like, towards a really important priority of the government. And that is why I say the first uplift was a decision to cut overseas Development aid, a hard edge decision. The second is the one taken by me in recent weeks, which is to do that reallocation within the government departments outside of a spending review. And that has been done. That is the decision. And the Defence Investment Plan will now be published before NATO. As I've always said and I've been discussing with the new Defence Secretary and the Chief of Defence Staff this morning,

[Chris Mason]

let's just broaden things out in our remaining minutes. Are you decisive?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, I've taken the decision in recent weeks to reallocate resources from other government departments.

[Chris Mason]

Sure, but it's been rejected by your former Defence Secretary.

[Keir Starmer]

The reason I ask you just let me push back on that a little bit because when I as Prime Minister have taken the decision to increase defence spending in a way which has not been done since the 1980s, that is decisive, it is evidence and it is hard edged. Those decisions have been taken by me because defence and security of our country is my number one priority.

[Chris Mason]

Let me put a few things to you. John Healey said, you have been unable to commit resources that the nation needs. Al Khan said, decisions that should take days take months. Wes Streeting said, where we need vision, we have a vacuum. Jess Phillips said, I know you care deeply, but deeds, not words, are what matter. There's an overlap here, isn't there? They're diagnosing paralysis.

[Keir Starmer]

Well, let me first, if I may just record my thanks and gratitude to John and Al for the service that they provided in government. And I respect both of them and it's important that I record my thanks.

[Chris Mason]

Sure. But it sounds like collectively they're on to something.

[Keir Starmer]

In terms of their comments, I'm afraid to say I disagree because it is decisive to increase defence spending to 2.6% by 2027 and to take the decision on the.

[Chris Mason]

But it's not enough, they're saying. That's the thing, isn't it?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, it is decisive to take the decision outside of a spending review to reallocate resources from government departments to the Defence investment Plan. That is what has happened here. That is the evidence of the decisions that I have taken. And as I say, I remain committed to, to the 3% and the 3.5% in the way I've set out.

[Chris Mason]

It's not just them, is it? With these observations, it was suggested your former Chief of Staff described governing as advance buckle. Advance buckle.

[Keir Starmer]

This recurring theme let me. Because very many people very often sitting outside of government give the impression that there are lots of easy decisions that can be taken.

[Chris Mason]

Well, these are often People who've worked in government.

[Keir Starmer]

Yeah. There are no easy decisions. For every decision, there has to be the question, what are you not going to do? So every time somebody says, this is what. There will always be people who will say, spend more on defence. I get that. There will never be a day when that isn't a criticism. There will always be people in that camp. There will be always people saying, I would do this, I would do that, I'd do the other. The question back to them is, what is it you wouldn't do? Because government is about trade offs, it's about priorities and it's about making the right decisions. The decisions to increase defence to 2.6% by 2027 and now to add to that, the Defence Investment Plan, they're the right decisions for this country and that's why I've taken them.

[Chris Mason]

And one of the central trade offs put to you by some of your political opponents, but also those who want to see you succeed, is the whole question of welfare as a trade off against defence. We cannot defend Britain with an ever expanding welfare budget. Not the words of the Conservatives, not the words of reform, although they do agree with that. The words of Lord Robertson, former Defence Secretary, former Secretary General of NATO. That's the crux of all of this, isn't it? That you lost credibility with your own side in that welfare vote of a year ago and you've not been able to recover since. And maybe money from that vast and expanding welfare budget could solve the issues that John Healey's talking about.

[Keir Starmer]

Let me take that head on, because I know that's a point that's made. And the answer to that is we are reforming welfare. We are doing this.

[Chris Mason]

It's still going up.

[Keir Starmer]

So the youth guarantee is in place. We've taken steps to rebalance universal credit and we've introduced the right.

[Chris Mason]

But it's still going up, isn't it?

[Keir Starmer]

But the important thing about that is they are all measures to get people into work. Because the question shouldn't be how much benefit is someone getting? The question should be what's the government doing to help them get into work that then frees up resources. So we are doing that reform, the Alan Milburn review coming, which is the next phase of reform. So we are doing that, that will free up resource. But what the question I've answered is how do you fund the uplift that was put in place a year ago to 2.6%? And how do you today fund the Defence investment plan? Which I've answered by saying by reallocating amongst other things, funds from departments into Defence. Both of them important decisions, the right decisions for our country.

[Chris Mason]

I take your point and many people will share the idea that of course the welfare system is about providing people with opportunities, but alongside that comes the bill. Can you get to a point in the years ahead where that bill is coming down and then you can entertain that trade off that that money could be spent on deferred?

[Keir Starmer]

Yeah, I do want to free up

[Chris Mason]

more resources from so down, not just slowing down the rate of income.

[Keir Starmer]

The question is how you do that. I think the right way to do that is to put in place the support to get people into work. I believe that that is the right approach. It's the values that we bring to the actually labour values. We believe in getting people into work, which is why we've already put those measures into place that will free up resources. It's the right way to do it. But it is important alongside that for me to answer the question today, how are you going to fund the Defence Investment Plan? And amongst the measures I've taken are the measures to reallocate resources from other departments outside of a spending review. Because normally these things are done in a spending review or at a fiscal event. This exercise has been taken against the backdrop of no spending review. And that is why these decisions are hard edge decisions taken by me, because that's the right thing in the interest of our country.

[Chris Mason]

So this Defence Investment Plan is not dead. It still sees the light of day. When? Next week?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, as I've said a number of times, it will be published before the NATO summit, which is a matter of a few weeks away. And I discussed it with the Defence Secretary and the Chief of Defence Staff this morning. We were looking at the capabilities and the priorities in the plan because it's very important to appreciate this is a plan now to make sure we have the capability for the future, the wherewithal and look, we know from Ukraine and Iran that the nature of conflict is changing. Therefore, the next generation of fighter plane is very important. Autonomous naval capabilities, very, very important. Long range missiles is something that across Europe we've been talking about how we collaborate in relation to. These are the questions that we're answering in the Defence Investment Plan, the right questions and answers for the country. But alongside that, I have made it a condition that this must translate into jobs. Well paid jobs in every community across the country. Every pound has to be spent in a double way. One, the spend on defence. Two, the investment in jobs in this country.

[Chris Mason]

Let me ask before we Conclude about your leadership, because that's obviously key to delivering what you want to achieve. And let me read you a quote. It's a quote from you in December 2021, talking about the then Prime Minister, Boris Johnson. The Prime Minister has lost the authority to lead. He's so weak, his party is so divided, he can't provide the leadership we need at this crucial time. He can't discharge the basic functions of government anymore. And I put it to you, that is an accurate description of your predicament right now.

[Keir Starmer]

I put it to you that that is wrong. And let me just explain why. We've had incredible prevailing winds in the two years we've been in government in terms of the international volatility and the impact on our economy. Notwithstanding that, we've had two very significant increases in defence spend and we've just rehearsed that. Secondly, we've stabilized the economy. The spring statement showed that inflation was down, interest rates were down, we had good headroom. Now we're seeing growth predictions, the biggest growth or the highest growth in the G7 predicted migration is down, so the economy is stable.

[Chris Mason]

Why are so many on your own side knocking on.

[Keir Starmer]

Just hear me out. So that's the second thing. The third thing is we have invested heavily in our public services and in recent weeks we've seen record drops in our waiting list. So defence of the country, the number one priority, stabilizing the economy, investing in our public services. They are the basics of government, just to borrow your phrase. And we have made significant progress on all three of those. And I would just gently say this, that whoever is Prime Minister is going to face the same prevailing winds as I am facing, none of that is going to change.

[Chris Mason]

So if it's Andy Burton, if it's waist streeting, the fundamentals of the same,

[Keir Starmer]

none of those things are going to change. And for every answer that is being suggested, the question has to be, when you're in government, which is about trade offs, what is it then that you wouldn't do? Because easy answers are, by their nature, easy decisions in government involve trade offs. So they always have to come with that second question. Well, if you're going to do that, what is it you wouldn't do?

[Chris Mason]

You described Liz Truss, when she was Prime Minister at one point as being lost in denial about the turmoil she was causing. And again, I put it to you, that's an accurate description of now, isn't it?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, look, I think if you look at the NHS and the work we've done, that is a significant improvement.

[Chris Mason]

On the way, Would the Keir Starmer as an opposition leader be saying exactly these things about the Keir Starmer as Prime Minister now?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, look, Liz Truss lost control of the economy and it spiraled out of control and we are still paying the price. But you've lost control of the economy. We have taken control of the economy. We've stabilised the economy. I wouldn't just gloss over that, Chris. It's very important. We inherited a broken economy and within two years, with Rachel Reeves's decisions at the budgets and spending reviews, we've got to a position where the economy is stable in a volatile world. That is incredible. We've got to a position where our public services are already improving in two short years and we've made two significant uplifts in defence spending. That is a million miles away from where Liz Truss left this cross country. And we're still paying the price in relation to her failures.

[Chris Mason]

And if there is a leadership contest. You're sounding determined. I hear you say you're in it to win it.

[Keir Starmer]

Yeah. Look, I'm not going to walk away. I don't think we should plunge the country into the chaos of a leadership election. But if that happens, wouldn't you be

[Chris Mason]

a contributor to that chaos?

[Keir Starmer]

Well, I don't think it should happen, but if it does, I will fight. And let me just be clear with you, that's not about personal vanity, it's not about stubbornness. It's out of a very deep sense of duty. I was elected to serve this country, notwithstanding the difficult circumstances. That is what I am doing. And in the last few weeks, others have made their own case. I've been concentrating on the job I was elected to do, which is to deliver for this country. This is about a sense of service and duty, vanity. It's not stubbornness, it's duty.

[Chris Mason]

You and I have had conversations like this for many years, going back to your time in opposition. And one consistent thread that you have always argued is not like hating the kind of soap opera of politics. And your argument that chaos doesn't help in the capacity to govern the country. Well, in a scenario, and I appreciate it hasn't happened yet, but in a scenario where there is a leadership contest, it may be that your decision to stand or not determines whether there actually is a contest. And in that scenario, you deciding to run makes you the author of chaos, doesn't it, Chris?

[Keir Starmer]

There's a strange way of analysing this. A contest only arises if somebody gets 81 MPs to back them and says I am now going to challenge and

[Chris Mason]

then you deciding that you're going to take them on, because if at that point you folded, then there wouldn't be a contest. And maybe the absence of a contest is in the interest of the country to avoid chaos.

[Keir Starmer]

Well, Chris, we have invested heavily in defence, we have stabilised the economy and we have invested heavily in our public services and we're seeing the yields of that in the nhs. That is a very sound platform and I want to complete the work I was elected into government to do. And therefore, that's why I've always said I'm not going to walk away from the commitment that I made in 2024 to serve my country and the mandate that I won from the British public in order to do so. That was a mandate we won in 2024. With me then leading my party and me now as Prime Minister, I'm not going to walk away from that because I think it's very important that we carry on ensuring that we do the right thing on defence and security. It's the number one priority for me as Prime Minister, that we carry on doing what we're doing to stabilise the economy. And that requires us to do the work with other international partners on Ukraine and the Straits of Hormuz, where we are seen as a leading country across the world, particularly in Europe. And it requires us to do what I fundamentally believe in, which is investing in our public services.

[Chris Mason]

And you will lead Labour into the next general election.

[Keir Starmer]

Well, that's what I want to do. I recognise that, you know, I've got to turn things around. We had a very bad set of elections.

[Chris Mason]

Wasn't quite a yes, though. So you're acknowledging the jeopardy.

[Keir Starmer]

Always clear that that's what I want to do. But look, I recognise that given where we are, I need to turn that around and that's what I intend to do.

[Chris Mason]

Prime Minister, thank you.

[Keir Starmer]

Thank you.

[Narrator]

So that was Chris Mason grilling the Prime Minister mid morning in Downing street on Friday 12 June. And the next thing you will hear in the newscast feed is me and Chris talking about what we learned from that interview. See you then.

[Keir Starmer]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Host]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined. Send us a WhatsApp on 033-01-239480. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.

[Tristan Redman]

When it comes to the World cup, does border security trump everything? I'm Tristan Redman with the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Many Africans are angry after a Somali referee was blocked from entering the U.S. fair enough. Or might it be prudent to cultivate good relations with a continent of 1.5 billion people? Listen to the Global [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts.