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- [00:00]
Keir Starmer
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- [00:06]
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- [01:14]
Henry (Newscaster)
Hi newscasters, it's Henry here and now Chris mentioned yesterday that it will become clear why I couldn't make it to Sheffield, which I was very sad to miss. And the reason is because around the same time you were hearing from him, I was in Downing street interviewing the Prime Minister. Now that's always fascinating, always, frankly, a privilege. But what was especially fascinating on this occasion is that it's the first time K Star has given an interview since he announced a couple of weeks ago that he was resigning and he wanted to be pretty open about the decision to resign, the environment in which he took it, but also he wanted to start framing what he sees as his legacy, not just in two pretty short years as Prime Minister, but also in his six years as leader of the Labour Party. I think you can hear from the interview we did in his study, by the way, which is not usually where he does these things, that he's a bit more relaxed Demore relaxed, perhaps, not quite de mob happy. I think perhaps he is still in quite an early stage of processing the reality of what has happened to him in such a short period of time. It's slightly different tone perhaps to some interviews with Prime Ministers, but I'm really fascinated to know what you think. I'll be back later with a normal episode of Weekend Newscast with Laura and Paddy where we'll chat it through, but for the moment, here's the full interview with me and the Prime Minister as he still just about is Sir Keir Starmer,
- [03:06]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Prime Minister. It's your second anniversary in the job this weekend, you're not going to have a third anniversary. When you think back to walking up that street as Prime Minister for the first time, is it a sweet memory or is it bittersweet?
- [03:20]
Keir Starmer
It's a very sweet memory. It was an incredible occasion. It was the first Labour government for 14 years. I was the Prime Minister. Only three Labour Prime Ministers have ever won a majority. And we just won a majority. And so it was a joyous occasion. It was fantastic. The street was covered with so many people who'd worked with me on the campaign and Vic was there obviously with me, and we had brought our children in round the back. We obviously never named them, never let them be photographed, but they were hidden in the crowd there. So it was a really fantastic occasion and a very proud moment, because to become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is a huge privilege. And so it was a very, very special.
- [04:13]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And do you see as part of your legacy as you leave office, or leave two offices, I should say, as leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister, to what extent do you see your leadership of the Labour Party as core to your legacy?
- [04:26]
Keir Starmer
I think it's absolutely core. And you can't sort of see the last two years if you don't take into consideration the last six years. Because I took over the Labour Party just after we'd lost the 2019 election. That was the worst defeat for a Labour Party since 1935. And we were politically, financially and morally bankrupt. We had the stain of anti Semitism and we weren't trusted by the public on the economy, on defence and security and on immigration. And most people at that point said, the Labour Party's finished, it'll never win again. That political parties have a lifespan. And the Labour Party had come to the end of its lifespan. I never accepted that. I stepped up in April 2020, but the first task was to clean up and fix my party, to tear out anti Semitism, to turn and make it face the country, to take the hands and the grip of my predecessors off every lever in the Labour Party. This was hard and bloody work, to change our party, to make the party face the electorate and face the country. And even then, people said, well, you seem to be changing the Labour Party. But it's not possible for Labour to win an election within five years of such a bad defeat. But we did it. We fought hard and we went from the lowest of low bases to a general election victory in 2024. And I say, you know, Labour doesn't win that often. Often enough. And we've only ever won three majorities and we won a majority in 24. And therefore 1945, 1997 and 2024 go down as three of the most successful elections in the history of the Labour Party.
- [06:27]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
So you're clear you've been a success as Labour leader. Have you been a success as Prime Minister?
- [06:31]
Keir Starmer
Well, the test of that, I think, has to be, is the country a better state now than it was when I inherited it two years ago?
- [06:43]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And you think it is?
- [06:44]
Keir Starmer
Oh, if you look across the big ticket items that really matter, the economy was broken when we came in. It was the aftermath of Liz Truss, and we have turned that around and stabilized the economy to a point now where we are the fastest growing economy in the G7, where we've been able to stabilize even during a period of conflict in the Iran war, or a leader on AI, et cetera. If you look at our public services, in particular the nhs, they were on their knees when we came in two years ago. Now we've picked them up, invested in our public services and in recent weeks, we've seen the biggest fall in NHS waiting lists in 17 years. If you look at issues like child poverty, where in two years we've taken the steps that will lift half a million children out of poverty and have a lasting impact on their lives. If you look at defence and security, where we've had two big uplifts in defence spending, but we've done more than that. We are now leading coalitions in Ukraine, it's France, Germany and the United Kingdom leading there in the straight off Hormuz, it's France and the United Kingdom, strategic decisions with other countries. And then if you look at our international reputation, which frankly was in tatters two years ago, we are in such a better position now as a trusted partner, not just across the eu, but much more widely, where, once again, people are looking to the United Kingdom for leadership.
- [08:17]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
So MPs got rid of you.
- [08:18]
Keir Starmer
If you aren't, you know, to answer that question, are we in a better position then, yes, we are. And that's right. And I'm proud of that. It is right that I do.
- [08:26]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
But it must make it extra confusing for you even that your colleagues have said, thanks, but no more.
- [08:32]
Keir Starmer
No, the way I've analysed that and look, it's not a decision I wanted to make. I'm not going to pretend I didn't want to be in this position, but the way I've looked at it is this. The question being asked now is not who was the best person to save the Labour Party and turn it around? I've answered that question pretty comprehensively. It's not, who's the best person to lead us to a landslide Labour victory? I've answered that question pretty comprehensively. The question my colleagues in the parliamentary party are asking now is, am I the right person to take us into the next election? And they've answered that question.
- [09:16]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
You think their answer is wrong still?
- [09:17]
Keir Starmer
Look, they've answered that question and I accept that answer. And I accept it in good grace. And this is really important to me because I really care that there's a Labour government. I really care that a Labour government succeeds, because I want our country to succeed. And therefore, yes, that's the answer they've given. I accept that in good grace. And what I want to do now is to make sure that whatever comes next is a success. And so I'm doing everything I can in the remaining time. I've got to make sure that there's an orderly transition, that everything is there to ensure there's a stronger foundation as can possibly be for my successor, so that what we've achieved so far can be built on, and I believe it can, because the next prime minister will inherit a stable economy of good public services or improving public services, a big
- [10:12]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
majority, but it's unstable the economy, having to have a new chancellor, a new leader.
- [10:16]
Keir Starmer
Hear me out. And therefore my successor will have a platform to build on, which means that Labour can go on, and should go on to win the next election. And that's what I'm trying to make sure I'm able to do over the next few days, to serve my country, to make sure that I bow out. It's the end of my journey in politics. I'm very clear about that. I've said to all my colleagues it's not the end of their journey. And it's very important we all do what we can to make sure what comes next is a success. And that's what I will do.
- [10:50]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Let's talk about the shape of what comes next, because you were very clear just then that you see your work on the global stage as a core part of your legacy. You talk about rebuilding alliances that were shredded when you came into office. Do you not worry that a new prime minister takes a bit of that back to square one?
- [11:08]
Keir Starmer
Well, I don't think a new prime minister will, because. And there's often this discussion, you know, what's the right balance between dealing with international affairs and dealing with domestic affairs. They're one and the same thing. And it is in the best interest of our country to be able to lead on the international stage. Just give you two or three examples of that. The biggest impact on the cost of living, therefore, on the household income and living standards of everybody in the country. The biggest impact in the last few years has been, on the one hand, the Ukraine conflict, on the other hand, the Iran conflict that's going on at the moment, and the straight off Hormuz. And therefore, if you're Prime Minister and you care what bills are going to be like in any household around the country, you have to care about finding a lasting solution to the situation in Ukraine, you have to care about what happens in the Strait of Hormuz. And that's why I am proud that when other countries have looked to the sort of group of countries that's needed to work on these, they've looked to the UK and to France and Germany for the work on Ukraine, in particular, the coalition of the willing, and they've looked again to France and the UK when it comes to the work that needs to be done on reassurance in the straight off Hormuz. And that is, I am proud of the fact that the UK is now regarded as a leader, a country that others look to and want to engage with, and that is in our best interests here at home. You can't. It's not sensible to think you can just separate these two things out, because
- [12:46]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
there are those in your party, and you probably know this, who think that the next Prime Minister could spend less time on diplomacy than you have. You're saying pretty clearly that's not possible.
- [12:56]
Keir Starmer
No, I don't think it is possible. And I've given you the example of Ukraine and the straight up Hormuz. I can give you plenty of other examples. The deal we did with the US that safeguarded all the jobs at JLR up in the Midlands, it's integral to the domestic pitching. Before we did that deal, I went to see the workforce and looked them in the eyes. They were really worried because of the threatened tariffs that they were going to lose their jobs. And I went back to them immediately. We did the deal with President Trump and they were so relieved because they knew for them, their families, their communities, it was a massive deal. So this suggestion, you could really, in the modern era, simply split up international and domestic. It just doesn't make sense. It isn't true, it isn't right.
- [13:40]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Do you ever think the job's too much for one person?
- [13:43]
Keir Starmer
No. Obviously, you need a strong team around You. You need a good Cabinet team, You need a good, strong team here in number 10. So there's a lot of support that goes in. But in the end, I think, particularly for the Prime Minister, working very closely with the Chancellor, that is where sort of key decisions have to be made, priorities have to be decided and, you know, trade offs have to be taken. There is the same trade offs for
- [14:10]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
your successor as you've faced.
- [14:12]
Keir Starmer
Yeah, look, whoever's my successor is going to face the same global conflict. We're in the. You know, we keep saying, and it's true, we're in a more dangerous and volatile world than we've been in for probably most of my lifetime. That's not just a phrase, that's reality. That's not going to change and the domestic challenges aren't going to change. And as Prime Minister, you have to take very many decisions every single day and none of them are easy. But everybody understands that that's the role of the Prime Minister and, you know, it is a really important role, sitting alongside the great privilege of actually being the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
- [14:52]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
I think even Larry the Cat knows that your successor is going to be Andy Burnham. And you've done something quite unusual I can't remember you doing about other people in the past, which is you've mocked him. I remember an event in 2022, just after the World Cup Final, the last World Cup. I'll just read you a bit of what you said. You said Andy got to see his boyhood team, Argentina, win the World Cup. It was a mixed bag because he also got to see his boyhood team, France lose the final and his boyhood teams, Morocco and Croatia, losing the semis. You're smiling. You think this is still funny? I mean, what did you mean by that?
- [15:21]
Keir Starmer
Well, look, I think this was a Christmas speech to the journalists.
- [15:26]
Podcast Advertiser 2
It was.
- [15:27]
Keir Starmer
That's why I remember it's intended to be very light hearted, etc. But let me give you another side of my relationship with Andy, which I think is really important, because we've been working together for years. When I first came here, I came into Baltics, as you know, late in life, and we had just lost another election. And the first person I wanted to work for and did work for was Andy Burnham. And we worked together in the Shadow Home Office team for a little while, and then since he'd been mayor, we've been working very closely together on some really important projects like Northern Powerhouse Rail. But also, you know, in the aftermath of the awful attack on the synagogue up in Manchester, I was on the phone to Andy straight away. It was one of the first calls I made. Went straight to Manchester and he and I then worked intensely closely together in the aftermath of that awful attack. Do you like him? Yes, I do. We've always got on. He supports the wrong football club, but so do you. But, you know, so do I. But the ability we get on. I've never had any personal animosity and I wish if he is my successor, obviously there's a little bit of process to go, but I want what comes next to succeed and I'm going to do everything I possibly can to make sure it does succeed. And I'm going to support the government. And what I mean by support is that any advice I give will be only given if asked for. It'll be given behind the scenes and I won't be on camera on the radio giving my version of what the Prime Minister should be doing, because that's my interpretation of supporting a Labour government.
- [17:09]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Let's talk a bit about how it feels to do this job. We're here in your study. I'm told you come here to think alone. Has it been lonely?
- [17:19]
Keir Starmer
No, it's not lonely because you're surrounded by teams the whole time. But sometimes you do need space to just sit alone, go through difficult decisions and just slightly step outside the inevitable noise and hustle that is always in number 10. So whether it's here in the study or whether it's actually our flat, which is just over there, I do have these places where I can go and sort of just get a bit of space in the flat here where I'm with Vic and the kids. I never have work meetings in the flat, so we've got a strict rule. Once you go through the front door, I'm dad, not Prime Minister, and it's our space, so creating those spaces have been important to me.
- [18:03]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And it takes a toll on the family too, doesn't it?
- [18:05]
Keir Starmer
Look, it's been really hard for them. They've been amazing. Vic, my wife, has been by my side every single step of the way, through some, many, many happy and joyous occasions, like walking up the street the day after we won the general election. But she's been by my side every single day when it's been tough in the same way. And of course, for our children, we've taken the decision to protect them. So we never name them, we never have photographs taken of them. That is unusual for them. They're teenagers moving into Downing Street. My little girl was 12, 13 and my boy was 17. And no, it wasn't 17, it was 15. Sorry, going on 16 two years ago. And to come and live in this environment was very odd for them and they've been amazing. But there's things I've not been able to do with them, because if there's cameras there, then I tend not to do it with them. And therefore they've been deprived of doing some things with me where they might have otherwise been able to do. But they've been fantastic.
- [19:16]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Your wife was by your side during the last few weeks, which have clearly been very difficult for you. When was the moment that the two of you, I think, as a pair, decided it was over?
- [19:27]
Podcast Advertiser 1
Well,
- [19:29]
Keir Starmer
it was tough. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Really, really tough. As I grappled with what was the best thing to do for me, for the country, for the government. And those discussions inevitably start with many discussions with colleagues, with parliamentary colleagues, with the team here, with my immediate advisors, with trade unions. So many people in that discussion. But for me, and this may be different for other people, in the end, it became an intensely personal decision. And that's why it was a decision taken ultimately, when Vic and I were away with the kids, we went to Chequers and just spent two days together as a family. And that's when I came to my final decision. And it wasn't that I didn't want other advice at that stage. I'd had plenty of conversations. But when you are taking the decision to step down from the role as Prime Minister, taking the decision that your political career is over, it is an intensely personal matter, or at least it was for me. And I wanted to do that with Vic, and that's what I did.
- [20:37]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And as you described earlier, you came to politics later than most. You've had an incredibly successful life, 11, plus two great universities, DPP at a relatively young age, you come to politics, and I think you've said before you thought you might be Ed Miliband's Attorney General, Instead you're leader of the Labour Party within five years, Prime Minister within nine. It must be difficult that clearly the last two years ultimately haven't gone as you'd hoped.
- [21:06]
Keir Starmer
Well, the way I see it is this. I didn't come into politics in order to be Prime Minister. I came in because I wanted to be part of something that would change millions of lives for the better. I stepped up as leader of the Labour party after the 29 election. And so the way I put it is the Labour Party arguably could have been lost, but I Stepped up as leader and with others, we saved the Labour Party. We returned it as an electoral force, won under general election, and then in two years have started the important work of change and left the country in a materially better state than it was two years ago. So, yes, look, in answer directly to your question, did I want it to end at this point in this way? No, I didn't. But I accept that with good grace. As I look back, am I proud of the fact that I picked the Labour Party up, turned it around, turned it back into electoral force, got rid of anti Semitism in our party, ensured our party was trusted again on the economy and on defence and on immigration, and won not just a general election, but a landslide general election, put in a shift at two years that has seen our economy stabilise, our public services improve and our international standing in a completely different place. When I look back on that, I'm proud of what I've done and I shall exit now having done that. I shan't, as I say, give unwanted advice to my successor. I shall simply make sure that I do everything I can to make sure what comes next is a success and support all of my colleagues in that. I want the government to succeed, I want all my parliamentary colleagues to succeed, and I've told them that, and I mean it.
- [22:54]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And you're going to stay as an mp?
- [22:55]
Keir Starmer
I'm going to stay as an MP
- [22:56]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
until the next election, yes. Do you have another big job in you? Some people are talking about an international job.
- [23:02]
Keir Starmer
I don't know is the honest answer to that. The decision I've taken is that I should focus 100% on serving my country as Prime Minister until the day I leave, and then I can take time to think about what might come next. But I don't want to get ahead of myself. It's a big job, it's really important. And my way of dealing with these things is to say I will focus on what the job in hand is. And that job in hand for me is serving my country, which is an incredible privilege, making sure that what comes next is a success, going with good grace and then having gone, keeping my mouth shut, rather than giving constant advice to my successor about what they should be doing.
- [23:50]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
And if you don't want to get ahead of yourself, you might not like this final question, but it's the last one. Your last day as Prime Minister is the day after the World cup final.
- [23:58]
Keir Starmer
Yes.
- [23:58]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Arsenal have won the League on your watch. Are England going to win the World Cup?
- [24:01]
Keir Starmer
Well, I really hope so. I mean we've got a great squad and of course the last time we won was under a Labour government, so that bodes well. I don't want to, you know, do anything to disturb what might happen. I mean, I'm a massive England Arsenal fan and England fan. I have watched England I don't know how many times I watched them back in 21 in the euro Finals in Wembley and of course we lost on penalties, but I think it was good. Scored resilient squad. Really tough game coming up against Mexico, but yes, we can win it and I really hope we do.
- [24:34]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
Kia's Timer thank you very much.
- [24:38]
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- [27:05]
Podcast Host (Laura or Paddy)
certain
- [27:08]
Interviewer (Chris Mason)
thank you newscast newscast from the
- [27:11]
Podcast Host (Laura or Paddy)
BBC from one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on +4403301239480 be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.
- [27:57]
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