The Keir Starmer Resignation Interview: Analysis

Summary

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Newscast – The Keir Starmer Resignation Interview: Analysis

BBC Newscast | July 4, 2026
Hosts: Paddy O’Connell, Laura Kuenssberg, Henry Zeffman

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Episode Overview

This episode of BBC Newscast delves into the recent resignation of Keir Starmer as Labour Party leader and Prime Minister, focusing on analysis of his first interview since his announcement—conducted by BBC’s Henry Zeffman. The discussion explores Starmer’s legacy, context around the transition to Andy Burnham, Labour Party dynamics, and what comes next for both the party and national politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Setting and Mood of the Starmer Interview

• Henry Zeffman recounts interviewing Keir Starmer in the study of 10 Downing Street—a space reportedly used by Starmer during moments of political crisis.
• Zeffman notes that Starmer was “tireless, jacketless, in one of those dark shirt” looks [03:07], and that the room’s landscapes and crowd scenes replaced traditional Prime Ministerial portraits, echoing Starmer’s personal style.

“I'm told that is where he's gone at moments of crisis...to think alone about what he should do next.”
– Henry Zeffman (02:27)

2. Starmer’s Framing of His Legacy

• Starmer draws parallels between himself, Clement Attlee (1945), and Tony Blair (1997), seeking a place in Labour’s “electoral pantheon,” though with a slightly smaller majority than Blair [04:42].
• The hosts agree Starmer positions himself as a “transitional” leader who rescued Labour from its 2019 defeat and returned it to government, laying a platform for his successor, Andy Burnham.

“He was trying to say, my legacy is not just two years as prime minister, it’s becoming Labour leader after a terrible defeat... and within five years taking the Labour Party back into government.” – Henry Zeffman (05:11)

3. Self-Reflection and Acknowledging Mistakes

• The team debates whether Starmer is capable of or willing to self-criticise. They note he didn’t truly engage with what he got wrong in office:

“He’s not ready to say that...It’s been a frustration of lots of his colleagues.”
– Laura Kuenssberg (08:56)

• There’s consensus that Starmer consistently avoided deeper self-reflection, changing “wrappings” but not his core approach—frustrating to many MPs.

4. The Nature of Starmer’s Departure

• Unlike chaotic Conservative transitions, Starmer and his team aimed for a gracious exit, avoiding bitterness.
• Starmer promises to “keep his mouth shut” as an ex-PM, offering advice privately if requested—a possible jab at Tony Blair’s more vocal post-office presence [06:43].

“He said he would be keeping his mouth shut as an ex prime minister, offering advice in private if it's asked for.”
– Henry Zeffman (06:43)

5. Why Starmer Had to Go: Popularity, Power, and Polls

• Ultimately, Labour turned to a new leader because Starmer was viewed (by polls and colleagues) as an electoral liability.
• Discussion points out he set a “new” tone in politics by warning “things will get worse” upon taking office, compared with previous leaders’ uplifting promises [11:00].

“If you tell the public...things can only get worse, you are really doing something very new.”
– Paddy O’Connell (10:50)

6. Long-standing Tensions and Labour Succession

• The path to Andy Burnham’s rise to Labour leadership was long underway before Starmer’s resignation, with political maneuvering and tension predating Labour’s return to power [14:43].
• Discussion covers the “political coup” scenario: Burnham’s re-entry to Parliament, assisted by allies.
• There’s irony that Burnham’s success builds on Starmer’s foundation—meaning Burnham’s performance will reflect on Starmer’s legacy.

“There is therefore an irony that Andy Burnham's success is Keir Starmer's success at this point.”
– Henry Zeffman (17:42)

7. Burnham’s Approach to Transition & Political Style

• In ongoing “access talks” (transition preparations), Burnham surrounds himself with a spectrum of Labour figures—from James Purnell (“Blairite”) to Louise Haigh (soft left), signaling a broad church approach [20:08].
• The contest for cabinet roles and influence is intense—described with Laura’s memorable quote:

“The greatest show of arse lickmanship you’ve ever seen.”
– Source via Laura Kuenssberg (21:25)

8. The Unknowns in Burnham’s Team and Style

• Unlike recent Conservative transitions, Burnham’s cabinet picks are not widely leaked or expected, resulting in frenzied speculation across Westminster [24:46].
• Burnham is characterized as having strong, clear beliefs and personal political capital, different from Starmer’s more advisor-dependent style.

9. Burnham’s Communications Style

• Burnham appears comfortable and authentic on social media, promising a new approach to Prime Ministerial communication, including Reddit AMAs and Instagram Q&As [27:16].

10. The Limits of “Brand North” and Regional Identity

• Debate over Burnham's “Downing Street North” narrative—hosts warn of the risk of alienating areas beyond Manchester, and being seen as parochial (e.g., how “north” means different things in the UK) [30:06].

“The north doesn't mean the same thing to all people. And also in London and the southeast and the southwest, there are also lots of pockets of poverty.”
– Laura Kuenssberg (30:23)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Starmer’s Post-Office Plans:
  “It was interesting. He said, my political career is over.”
  – Laura Kuenssberg (33:09)

• On Burnham’s Cabinet Speculation:
  “Maybe with the exception of James Purnell and Louise Haigh, nobody knows whose names are on that whiteboard right now.”
  – Henry Zeffman (23:04)

• On Party Contest:
  “It’s like X Factor. It’s like he’s Simon Cowell. Everybody’s trying to perform in front of him. ... This is probably his moment of ultimate power.”
  – Laura Kuenssberg (21:13)

• On Change in Political Tone:
  “He told Henry that...he had the whole family there...he wanted everyone involved in what he described as the end of his political journey. So I thought that was honest.”
  – Paddy O’Connell (08:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:23 – Henry Zeffman reflects on interviewing Starmer in No.10
• 03:43 – Studio discussion on Starmer’s office décor and what it symbolizes
• 06:43 – Starmer commits to keeping “mouth shut” as ex-Prime Minister
• 08:56 – Observations about Starmer’s lack of self-criticism
• 11:00 – Unique pessimistic messaging: “things can only get worse”
• 14:43 – Timeline for Burnham’s ambitions and the long prelude to his return
• 17:42 – Irony of Starmer's legacy connection to Burnham
• 21:25 – Quote: “greatest show of arse lickmanship you’ve ever seen”
• 24:46 – Cabinet speculation and parallels to previous transitions
• 27:16 – Burnham’s social media engagement strategy
• 30:06 – “Brand North” risks and limitations

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Tone & Takeaways

• Conversation is candid, lively, and occasionally irreverent, in typical Newscast style.
• Starmer is painted as both dignified in exit and ultimately undone by lack of personal political touch and public popularity.
• Burnham is seen as self-assured, with a clear vision and an urge to build a broader Labour coalition—yet fraught with the complexities of party unity and expectations.
• The episode paints the current transition as fundamentally about political momentum, personal style, and the mechanics of British party politics, against a backdrop of ongoing public skepticism and regional identity debates.

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For Further Listening

• Full Henry Zeffman interview with Keir Starmer is available in the Newscast feed.
• Laura Kuenssberg's related articles and newsletter are available on the BBC website.

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Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

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[Laura Kuenssberg]

welcome to limbo land.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes, the gap twixt one thing and the other.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, or I could actually see if you could limbo under the microphone sound because that would be enormously entertaining for me. However, there are actually important things to talk about, like Henry Scoop, interview with the Prime Minister.

[Henry Zeffman]

Hi. Yeah, in fact, as we record, I think it is, yeah, it is literally 24 hours since we were recording that interview, his first interview since he announced his resignation a couple of Mondays ago. And he was in a really interesting mood and it was really fascinating to get his early thoughts on what he sees as his legacy as he starts to transition into that ex prime ministerial world.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And we are in this strange transition period where Kir Sammer is having his long goodbye and Andy Barnum is having a long hello. And that's what we're going to get into. Patrick, of this afternoon's Saturday newscast, newscast,

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newscast from the BBC.

[Henry Zeffman]

I will resign as leader of the Labour Party.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And what will you do? Stare at a wall? Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Paddy O'Connell]

You know, I like my bosses.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I'll come on to them.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's supposed to be me as a doctor.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Ooh la la.

[Henry Zeffman]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's Laura in the studio and it's

[Henry Zeffman]

Henry in the studio.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But also recently in the study of number 10 Downing Street.

[Henry Zeffman]

Yeah, where I'd never been before. And I, I, I'm sure some Prime Ministers have given interviews there in the past, but I don't think Keir Starmer has. And I mean, it didn't, it didn't look. Yeah, that's for sure. It didn't look a lot like it usually looks, apparently, because the brilliant people who made the interview look great for the BBC moved the massive desk out the way so that we could sit down. But I. I'm told that that is where he's gone at moments of crisis, and he's had rather a few of those in just two years as Prime Minister to think alone about what he should do next.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And the whole interview is in your feed, so it's well worth a listen. It's all there. We're not going to go through lots and lots of the bits of clips today because I would really recommend that you go and listen to the interview. I really want to know how you kind of found him, Henry. But just the whole setup was obviously very different. He was tireless, jacketless, in one of those dark shirt, dark sh. That he wears. But before we go on, I wanted to know. I couldn't quite work out from the shots. In his first interview in the Cabinet Room, do you remember, he said, I'm not going to have any portraits of people looking down at me because I don't like people looking at me when I'm sitting, trying to work. Were there any portraits or were there all landscapes?

[Henry Zeffman]

I had a similar thought, and I'd say I'm like a moderately cultured man, but I'm not sufficiently cultured in the visual arts that I could tell people what from the government art collection he had chosen. But they were streetscapes, landscapes, scenes of crowds of people, I think, as well. There were definitely very distinguished pieces of art, and there were. There was a booklet in the corner that I could have consulted in the sort of 10 minutes while I was pacing about, waiting for the interview. And I sort of made moves in that direction and then thought, nah, I should probably actually think about what I'm gonna ask him. And then afterwards, sadly, I wasn't allowed to stay behind and peruse the art.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Interesting for me, he conjured up some very great moments, which could be faces staring down. He conjured, up, aptly, 1945, Blair, 1997, and Keir Starmer, 2024. So you could, in your mind, in your mind's imagination, see three faces for the purposes of this newscast.

[Henry Zeffman]

Well, I think that was him making the point, Paddy, that in electoral terms alone, he does belong in that pantheon. I mean, he won a bigger majority, I think, than Atlee did, slightly smaller than Blair. Atlee, of course, managed six years as Prime Minister, two election victories and a transformation of the British state. Tony Blair, the only Labour leader to have won three consecutively and won them very handsomely at that. But look, I think what really leapt out to me was that, and perhaps a cynic might say it makes sense for him to do this, given what's happened to him in office as prime minister. But he was trying to say, my legacy is not just two years as prime minister, my legacy is becoming Labour leader after a terrible defeat in 2019, the worst since 1935, and within five years taking the Labour Party back into government. He was almost starting, I think, to make an argument that he has provided a platform on which his successor, and we all acknowledged in the interview it was going to be Andy Burnham could build.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And it's interesting in the last couple of weeks, that's the kind of way that the people who were left as allies at the end were kind of consoling themselves. I think in conversations that I was having with people is like, well, look, we got him in. There is still nearly three years of a Labor government to go. That's an enormous achievement. And actually we can therefore walk out with our heads held high, graciously, without leaving behind sort of bitterness and horror. And I think quite deliberately, as I was interested to hear in his interview, they are trying to run this in a very, very different way from those very, very bitter Conservative handovers when there was complete car crash, that was all terrible. Here we are, we're the savior. On repeat. I was struck by how much he was maybe a little bit through gritted teeth, but really trying to say, or didn't even say, I'll keep my mouth shut.

[Henry Zeffman]

Yes, he did. He said he would be keeping his mouth shut as an ex prime minister, offering advice in private if it's asked for. I wondered if that was a bit of a jab at Tony Blair as well as others. But look, Keir Starmer casting himself almost as a kind of transitional figure, taking the Labor Party from wilderness to government on which someone else can build. Let's be clear, that is not how he envisaged himself very, you know, not even that long ago. Decade of national renewal is rather different to opposition years, plus two years in government, leaving the country, as he argued, in a slightly better position.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And did you get any sense that he's actually reflected on what he has actually got wrong in office?

[Henry Zeffman]

If he has, I didn't get it from that interview. I think he's come up with an answer for himself as much as anyone about why Labour MPs have got rid of him. And that is A formulation that he kept returning to, that he sort of gestured at in that resignation speech outside Downing street, which is they are asking a different question now. The question was who can pick the Labour Party off the floor? The question now is, who can win the next election? But I said to him, do you think they're wrong that you can't win the next election? And I think you can say that implicit in his answer is, yes, he does think they're wrong.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We, before the resignation, the weekend he was in Chequers, which is two weekends ago, we talked about the man in the machine.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

We did.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We talked about a human being at the heart of this. And I'm pleased that we did that because he told Henry that actually that weekend he had the whole family there. We didn't really know that, but he was talking to Victoria, his wife and his children, reminding us that we don't see them or know their names. And he wanted everyone involved in what he described as the end of his political journey. So I thought that was honest. I'm pleased that we flagged up that we want to be the podcast that remembers human beings are at the heart of our system. But also I do want to put it on the record that newscasters can go and listen to an answ which does not make sense, which is asking him the same question, where. What did. What, where did you go wrong? What did you do wrong? He's not ready to say that.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No. And he may never be right. I mean, it's been a frustration of lots of his colleagues, frankly, for the last couple of years, is that he has said often, yes, things need to change, we need to do things better, we need to go, oh, further and faster. Anyone. But there has been a constant criticism that that self reflection on what he has done wrong or his inabilities or his inability to change or what does he need to do to operate differently. For many colleagues, that's been a consistent frustration about Keir Starmer, hasn't it? Has been. Well, you can change the chief of staff and you can have a milestone instead of a mission and you can have a steps for change instead of plans for change, or you can basically look at the wrappings. But he, many people in the party believe was never really willing to look at, honestly at his own difficulties with the job. And that didn't really come across. He seemed to me to be miles away from that, certainly anywhere near a microphone.

[Henry Zeffman]

And some labor mps, predominantly though not exclusively on the left of the Labour Party, would argue that that is a problem that's Been baked into his leadership right back to the start, right back to 2020. Because he says twice in this interview, by the way, and he's not quite said this in these terms before, that he saved the Labour Party, and a lot of his colleagues will agree with that. But some will say, well, yes, in terms of what he described as the moral stain of anti Semitism, but in terms of providing the Labour Party with a governing project, with a meaning, a purpose, social democracy for the sort of third decade of the 21st century, well, I think they think he didn't quite manage that. And actually, that was perhaps at the core of his failure as Prime Minister. Failure. I think, though he doesn't see it that way. Failure to get beyond two years.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Here's something that will always stand as interesting, no matter what part is in power, when you come into office, if you tell the public in office, things can only get worse, you are really doing something very new.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And it's normal to say things can only get better, which is kind of what Tony Blair said that and sang. I'm sure he even sang it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

He certainly bopped around to it.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Because students of political history will say that you have to take me as a voter to the shining city on the hill. You don't take me into the slough of despair. When you take office, before you take office, you say, look at those people. They're taking me to the slough of despair. Come with me.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But you can say, come with me, and it will be hard and the road will be long and it may be covered in rocks that we have to journey around together, and it may be a slog, but we're all in this together. And eventually I'm taking you to the promised land, Right? And that's the bit that was Starmer Stevens said themselves. That is one of the things that they got wrong, is that when they arrived, they basically said, everything's gonna be terrible. And I know I've referred to this so many times, but remember that first big interview that we did, and he said, we're going to have to be unpopular. Now, it might be grubby, but politics is in the end about being popular. And I don't mean in a shallow way, that people thinking that you look fun, but actually taking people along with you, feeling that they've got an investment in you, feeling that you are representing them, not just saying everything's going to be absolutely awful. Because if you tell people they're going to have a horrible time, a bit more likely to have a horrible time, aren't they?

[Henry Zeffman]

And where I think his analysis of why he's leaving that building is incontestable is that he says labor mps are now asking who's going to win the next election. Yeah, I think it is basically a fact that he is leaving office because all the polls and all the elections that have now taken place on his watch as prime minister show that he's unpopular and labor mps in large numbers think, oh, if it carries on like this, the Labour Party is going to lose the next general election and I'm going to lose my job. Yeah, that's why he's off. You can talk about the background to his unpopularity, the ways in which it might have been avoided, the fact that we've cycled through so many unpopular prime ministers in such a short space of time, but it is clearly the case.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

It's as simple as that, isn't it, really? And however long this transition between him and Andy Barnum has been brewing, and there are all sorts of stories and all sorts of myths and stories and truths and all the rest about why we've got to this place, fundamentally, is because in this moment in June20, Andy Barnum looked like a winner and Keir Starmer looked like a loser. That's fundamentally the reason behind what's happening now.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I want to say a thing and then ask you both a thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Okay.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It would probably be better for newscasters if I just asked you the thing and didn't say the thing.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

No, I like the build up.

[Paddy O'Connell]

All right. I'm going to say the thing, really, which is that he did give Henry a really detailed account of who he spoke to when he made his decision to quit. So he said it was a family, he said it was parliamentary colleagues. He said it with trade union.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Unions, yeah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So we can picture those phone calls on the weekend and they're all saying to him, you need to add up, you do not have the numbers. That's definitely what he's telling Henry in code. So that's me, Henry, explaining. So then I want to go back to what you said and ask you to tell me where is the conspiracy theory on where the timeline starts for Burnham going for Starmer? Because I think you could describe it as a political coup that Josh Simons gives up his seat to his friend Annie Burnham, who wins and then gets number 10. That's a good coup in. In the terms of journalism. Right, so when do we say it started? Did it start in January 2026?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, I thought. I think it started a long time before that.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Right.

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When

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think it's been clear for ages that Andy Barnum wanted to come back and have a crack at number 10. And it's also been clear for ages that here's Timer was not a popular Prime Minister. And at least by the end of, you know, as soon as we were in, you know, at least by Starmer's second conference. So if you think sort of autumn 2025 already, by that point, the conversation is live and well about whether or not Keir Starmer can take them into the next general election. And it felt. It sort of felt kind of staggering. You're like, well, hang on a minute, guys, you've only had a year in. But that conversation was up and running Only just over 12 months after Starmer had taken office. Without question, by that point, Andy Barnum was already going around the place, making no secret of the fact that he had a desire to come back to Parliament one day. If the, you know, someone said to me, or if there happened to be a signal in the night sky that said, andy, please come and save us, that he would go, oh, really? Me? You know, So, I mean, a long time.

[Paddy O'Connell]

He tweeted. He tweeted during one of your interviews.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yes, he did.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Which was a signal about the child's

[Laura Kuenssberg]

benefit to Child Benefit Camp.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I think the signals have been there for a long time.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, yeah. I mean, for a long, long, long time. There is a reason, you know, Andy Barnum was very popular as the Greater Manchester Mayor. It's a job that he appears to have enjoyed very much. It's a job where he made a massive impact. But it has also been absolutely clear for a very, very long time that he had designs on coming back to number 10. I don't think that he got to know Josh Simons, to mention one of those characters properly, until actually relatively recently in the whole sort of arc of that. But this has been a long, long time coming.

[Henry Zeffman]

And the tensions between Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham predate Labour returning to government.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, yeah. I mean.

[Henry Zeffman]

I mean, I read as. As you would have heard. I read Keir Starmer, one of the pretty rude, frankly, things he said about Andy Burnham in the past, because I remember this particular joke, essentially about him supporting every World cup team code. This man doesn't believe anything. And as I pointed out in the interview, he laughed. He was. He was. He was essentially thinking, oh, yeah, that's quite witty.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And then he said, of course I like him.

[Henry Zeffman]

Yeah.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

There's also history in leadership campaigns. So Keir Sarmer backed Andy Barnum's leadership campaign in 2015. Andy Barnum was then, shall we say, quite late to support Keir Starmer for Labour leader in 2020. So, as ever with politics, there are always, always, always receipts of things that happened in the past. And I think they often had. You know, it's the kind of the. If, if Burnham got up to something, you would phone somebody in Starmer's team and you'd get a sort of metaphorical eye roll down the phone. You know, he was somebody who was giving them hassle constantly, deliberately or not deliberately, but it was very clear that he had designs on the, on the big job one day. That doesn't mean that he was plotting every moment of every day to get rid of Starmer, but it was very clear that the Greater Manchester job was not the limit of his ambitions and

[Henry Zeffman]

maybe to bring this all full circle. There is therefore an irony that Andy Burnham's success is Keir Starmer's success at this point. And I don't mean that in some sort of woo, woo, Labour family way. Keir Starmer has told us very clearly that a big part of his legacy is that he has provided the Labour Party the opportunity not just to win once, but to keep on with. Yeah, well, if they go down to a bad defeat under Andy Burnham at the next general election, whenever that may be, then on Keir Starmer's own terms, that chips away and then summit his legacy. However, if Andy Burnham wins, you know, I'd expect former Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer to make a point that he believes that is building on his foundation

[Paddy O'Connell]

and with some of the same people. Because if, as rumored, Andy Burnham brings David Miliband, Ed Miliband, James Purnell himself in, they sort of look a bit like the new Labour Flintstones will bring himself in.

[Henry Zeffman]

I think that's inherent, but I'm just,

[Paddy O'Connell]

you know, I just don't want to move further than we know.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But I mean, so James Parnell, we know definitely, we know definitely that Ed Miliband will have some kind of big job. We just don't know which one it will be. But yeah, in a sense you've got the kind of little, you know, Blur Blairite and Brown Eye boy band from the late 90s and moving into number 10. Right. Demonized, yeah, the football team, which included other sort of various people who are now luminaries in other kind of big jobs. But, but putting that together in the new Burnham world is going to be absolutely fascinating. So if we think about our limbo, if we move into the Other side of this limbo. Now, if we think about moving into what's going on in Barnum world in the access talks, which is the formal process of sort of this transition, which even though he's not yet labor leader, that process has begun. So last week, Burnham has been in talks with the Cabinet secretary, Damantonio Romeo, and the treasury and security agencies and talking about, you know, the challenges of the country and what they want to do and getting ready. But flanked in those talks on the one hand by James Purnell, who is somebody who was in the, you know, new labor spad boy band and then became cabinet ministers, then went and did all sorts of other big jobs, including here at the BBC, ran a university, has just been running a lobbying company. He's the chief of staff, seen as a sort of, you know, market friendly new Labor Blairite type. Although all these labels are now wildly out of date. And I would just put that right there on the record.

[Henry Zeffman]

Totally agree.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

On the other side of Andy Barnum, Lou Haig Sheffield mp, who was briefly in Starmer's cabinet of the soft left, completely different part of the Labour Party. And those are the two people that Andy Burnham has had alongside him in those access talks. So one of the interesting things about this is Burnham is clearly at this moment in time very interested in having a broad range of labor views around him. And he's given a lot of language about consensus and it's about place politics. And you don't want point scoring, you don't want factionalism and all those kinds of things. But that is a real contest at the moment. You know, there is a bun fight, as someone said to me, there's a bun fight for jobs, there's a bun fight for the Cabinet, there's a bun fight for political space. So we know he's got a very clear set of beliefs about how the country should be changed and how there should be radical reform and evolution. But around the rest of the party, there is this kind of. I mean, I wrote about it. It's like, it's like kind of X Factor. It's like he's Simon Cowell. Everybody's trying to perform in front of him. You know, pick me, pick me, pick me. And this is probably his moment of ultimate power.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah, but you wrote a word I never I'd see written.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And I only wrote it because someone else said it to me. I didn't make it up. Can I say it on the BBC?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, you'll have to try. Laura is going to say the word she wrote and we're not going to beep it.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

They said what's happening at the moment in order to try and impress Andy Barnum is, and I quote, the greatest show of arse lickmanship you've

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[Asma Khalid]

Has America Shaped the World? Asma I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250 year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the US has shaped the modern world. And today on the show we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC. It's the United States at 250. Listen to the Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your your podcasts.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Ever seen. Now that's pretty nasty, but it does give you quite a colorful metaphorical impression of what's happening in labor at the moment because the new king's on his way, right? So everybody is trying to impress their splendor on the guy who's about to come in. But it's quite interesting he's let it be known that he does. He thinks it's all about unseemly. He wants people to think about the change rather than the personalities.

[Henry Zeffman]

I think one of the things that is probably driving some of these MPs seeking jobs into even more of a frenzy is that really no one knows what he's gonna do. I mean, I'm actually pretty confident that maybe with the exception of James Pinell and Louise Haig, nobody knows whose names are on that whiteboard right now and to how firmly on they are, inked or otherwise. And you know, I was speaking to a cabinet minister this week who said, you know, I hope he'll keep me. I've been to see him. I think he'll make Ed Miller band chancellor. But I don't know. I read that Dave Miliband might be foreign Secretary, we had a good chat. He revealed nothing. And you think back to some of these Conservative transitions and, you know, there are different ways to go. So Boris Johnson to Liz Truss. I mean, about two weeks before Liz Truss became Prime Minister, we could, if, if we were doing weekend newscast, then we could have literally said, almost. I. Almost to a person, these people are going to be in these jobs. It was extraordinary. However, when David Cameron handed over to Theresa May, I think, you know, no one really knew what was going to happen until people started walking up the street. And I think it's going to be actually a lot more like that. And that's going to be really fascinating because that's suddenly the moment he shows his hand. And one of the moments, I think, that weakened Keir Starmer most was not his first batch of appointments, but his second. The ones he made. Big reshuffle he did after Angela Rayner resigned as Deputy Prime Minister. Because at that point, you please some people and you disappoint a lot of. A lot of others, not just the ones you demote, but also the ones who have thought that they're getting promoted and discover that they're not.

[McDonald's Advertiser]

And.

[Henry Zeffman]

And inevitably, mathematically, is going to be the same for Andy Burnham.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I think that's absolutely right. And it's going to be so, so interesting. And also it's going to be different for people watching the news, people like us covering the news, because it's going to be a different Prime Minister in that we have a Prime Minister with a clear set of his own beliefs that he has developed over a number of years. And with Keir Starmer, that just wasn't the case. Most of his political advice was coming from elsewhere. So, you know, of course, Andy Barnum will be surrounded by advisors and we've talked some of them, but he's also been a successful politician with a sort of capital P, if you like, rather than just a career for a long time himself. And it's interesting, his speech last week, I think, was written by himself. And I asked somebody in the team this week, I said, oh, who. Who's the speechwriter? Is there a speech writer? And actually, that speech on Monday, he wrote. Now, there's obviously, over time, there's the practicalities of being Prime Minister. Of course he'll have a bigger team and of course there'll be lots of people in his ear. But we're used to covering a Prime Minister who people always wondered what he believed. Well, we know what Andy Barnum believes. What we don't know is the specifics of how those beliefs will translate into decisions about real things. But that's going to be different. That's going to be different, too.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I spoke to Bridget Phillipson for Newsnight, and I said to her on the record, have you spoken to him since he won the by election? To which she replied, I have not spoken to him recently. To which I said, well, that doesn't look good for a job, does it? Because obviously you don't. But then I could be wrong because maybe he's not making those calls now. He said on Reddit that he did not know yet, or he wasn't prepared to say that he knew yet who his Chancellor would be even.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

And that's the big sort of parlor game that's keeping Westminster interested at the moment, is who the Chancellor is going to be. But it's just all going to be really, really interesting.

[Henry Zeffman]

And the other interesting thing you said there, Paddy, is he said on Reddit, and we've had various politicians, including Keir Starmer, say, I am going to communicate in a different way, which reflects the fact that the media environment has changed, that there's no longer two channels and all of that. And I think there are signs from Andy Burnham at this point, at least, that he may be making good on that in a way that some of his predecessors haven't read it. He's doing an Instagram at some point today.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, today.

[Henry Zeffman]

Q A at some point, as we record today. And of course, after that speech that he wrote himself, he didn't take questions from journalists.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah. And I think he. But he's somebody also who, during the make of your campaign, we saw, is very much at ease on social media and at ease and communicating lots of ways. He's very happy in front of the cameras. That's also something that's going to be different to the most recent prime minister, who Henry. You admirably got him to be very relaxed and very candid, Keir Starmer in a way that he really isn't. And. But that's going to be a change as well. So you've got someone who enjoys the media, enjoys the cameras at the moment, because the transition from being a popular politician in one part of the country to suddenly being a Prime minister, where you have 360 degrees of flak flying at you from every direction in all sorts of unexpected ways, is an incredibly different thing. And however much experience you've got, however you prepared you are, however you've been a cabinet minister, you've done this job or that job. I don't think Any political team or any politician that I've ever seen in however many years moving in is. Can ever be prepared for how relentless it is and how surprising it is, and how also you can have such little control over how you spend your time. Which was another thing that Keir Starmer said to you. You know, think you can ignore the international stuff, like you've got another thing coming. Right. And I thought that was an interesting point. He. I thought he was very, very eager to land that point, as well as being saying all these very friendly things about Andy Burnham. I thought he had had slightly the smack of a prepared warning to the next man along.

[Henry Zeffman]

And as I said to him, there are lots of Labour mps, you all have both heard from them as well, who hope one of their big hopes for the Burnham Premiership is that he will be able to not confine himself to. That's never going to be the case for a Prime Minister. But focus overwhelmingly on the domestic. And Keir Starmer said that's not possible. And actually they're so connected, cost of living and so on, that it's not desirable either.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah, it's really interesting. Although you can then, if you think back to the model of where you had Rishi Sunak and David Cameron, they did it in a very different. There are different ways of doing it, but the idea that he's gonna be able to spend all his time in number 10 north and never have to go to an international summit, I mean, that's just for the birds.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yeah. Just. Just a little side note from me, who was born in Surrey, if you're in Aberdeen and you hear Downing street, north is hundreds of miles south, does it make you feel like he knows that Scotland is part of his bailiwick?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, if you say north to me, I think Aberdeen. Right. And if you say north to someone in Manchester, they might think we're Carlisle. And then what? If you say north to someone who lives in Northallerton, then they don't think Manchester. So one of his old colleagues was saying to me last week, he's gonna have to get rid of this shtick quite soon because it'll just start to wind people up.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Because in North Wales, they talk of themselves as being from the north. And I just wonder. I just put it out there. But I'm starting it by saying, look, I'm not having a north south thing because I'll lose, because I was born in Guild. But I just pointed out, right, because

[Laura Kuenssberg]

the north, to use Watford.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Precisely. It's amazingly far north to me.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But it's a thing, isn't it? And every prime ministerial brand, right, they, you have to both your advantage can be your weakness. You know, to lots of people's ears, it might sound fantastically refreshing. There's obviously a big thing in this country about London being too dominant, too big, too powerful. People that live in London don't have any idea about what life is like for the rest of the country. Right. That is a big feature of the uk We're a very centralized country. By the same token, the north doesn't mean the same thing to all people. And also in London and the southeast and the southwest, there are also lots of pockets of poverty. Not everybody who lives in the southeast as England is having a great old time and the pavements aren't paid with gold, paved with gold. So any politician always, you have to be careful and judicious about how you use a brand and an ethos. Because I think it's more than a brand. I mean, this is a, it's a belief set that Andy Burnham, I think genuinely does hold, which is woven into

[Henry Zeffman]

his life story as well, in this sense of how he wasn't rated as highly as southern colleagues, essentially in the same generation of new Labor. And it is authentically him. But. Oh, yeah, but as you say, Laura, weaknesses, strengths can very quickly become weaknesses. And I think that's one of the big lessons of Keir Starmer.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Here's the thing. Do you, do you share with me as a, not as a journalist, as a voter, an interest in life after office, Sort of the moment that they slip the chains, you think, oh, there's a, oh, you seem a bit more relaxed.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And oh, and I think of John Major saying, oh, I'm going to go off and play cricket. Margaret Thatcher shed a tear, she left number 10. And you know Tony Blair, well, you, you always hear from him a lot. But Gordon Brown, for instance, went off, did his multi bank thing. I've been up there to meet him, talking about his redistributive plans.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Well, there's two fantastically different, different examples. You know, Tony Blair went and then had an incredibly successful business time flew around the world, did all sorts of, you know, high value schmoozing and has maintained a kind of position as a revered political commentator. And, you know, is now even, we think, involved in the Gaza Peace Board with Donald Trump. Gordon Brown is doing mainly charitable pursuits based very much in his hometown. And you know, as you reported on that multi bank model, which is like a food bank for everything and they've taken completely different Paths, Post office and. And prime ministers do, you know, then they can sort of pick and choose. You know, Rishi Sunak's off doing a lot with his maths foundation because that's something he really cares about. His numeracy for kids, he's got a column in the Sunday Times, but he gives that money to charity and they go off and do all sorts of different things. And K. Summer. I mean, he didn't rule out an international job.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Didn't.

[Henry Zeffman]

He didn't.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

But it was interesting. He said, my political career is over.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Henry Zeffman]

Which is slightly incompatible. Incompatible. That's too strong. But sit slightly uneasily with him committing clearly for the first time to remain an mp.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Yeah.

[Henry Zeffman]

In his homeless Pancras constituency, at least until the next election. So, I mean, actually, Gordon Brown, who we've just been talking about, he remained an MP for five years from the 2010 general election, which he lost, but I think he was very, very rarely in the House of Commons. I mean, look, I am interested, paddy, in what XPMs do.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

There's a lot of them.

[Henry Zeffman]

There's an awful lot of them. I mean, the senator is just going to look odd because they all line up at the Senate half on Remembrance Sunday, as you know better than me, Paddy, and there's just gonna be a lot.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I mean, I don't know if they're

[Henry Zeffman]

gonna have to start doing a ballot in a few more Prime Ministers. But anyway, well, very interesting thing.

[Paddy O'Connell]

There's a newscaster, Sally, who says she's just realized that Adam is away. Is it possible he's at the wedding in New York?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, I would love. I cannot think of anyone in the world who would more enjoy having been able to go to the Taylor Swift wedding at Madison Square Gardens. Maybe that is where he is.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Sally's sending best wishes from the Highlands of Scotland. But if you are there out there, Adam Fleming, do let us know what Adam Sanders like as a master of ceremonies.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

I know I've was very. Yeah, well, the main boggles.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Henry. Congratulations on your scoop.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Congratulations.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Will we even see you tomorrow? Will you lay down your heavy burden?

[Henry Zeffman]

I've decided I've earned a day off.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Quite right. What are you doing tomorrow in your program?

[Paddy O'Connell]

We will return to the extraordinary accounts that are in the forced adoption story. We're going to meet an amazing couple, mother and son, who found each other after years. It's very poignant, very strong emotions, all of us dealing with it, preparing for it. And we'll also. We've got Brian Blessed cheering on England.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Amazing. Amazing. We've got some special people wishing good luck to England as well. But not Baron Blessed. But maybe we should ask him to do one as well. With that incredible voice, does he say, come on, England?

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's a bit like that. And also, you know, his famous phrase is Gordon's alive. But we wanted to ring him up and make him say, anthony Gordon's alive. Isn't Anthony Gordon one of the big England players? He is.

[Henry Zeffman]

He got the assist for the Hurricane equalizer.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Just checking with you. You also told Pierre Starmie supported the wrong team. Cheeky.

[Henry Zeffman]

Yeah, that was cheeky.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Would you have told him that if he hadn't already resigned?

[Henry Zeffman]

Yes, because I really, really don't like Arsenal.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Does he go and does he fly out if England go to the final? Do we know that?

[Henry Zeffman]

Well, I asked him that off the record. But the sanctity of the nature of off the record conversations must remain. But I do know the answer and

[Paddy O'Connell]

of course, say it with your eyes.

[Henry Zeffman]

The World Cup Final is the day before we expect the handover to Andy Barry.

[Asma Khalid]

Exactly.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

You'll have to go to the palace on the Monday morning and that all happens in only an hour and a half. I mean, that is wild. And if I'd got some very entertained myself with some very funny stories of what happens on the days before and people going around in Derry street trying to tidy up under their desks to impress the new boss. And one former Prime Minister being really cross that they started painting walls when they were leaving.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Really.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Anyway, there we are.

[Paddy O'Connell]

What are you doing?

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Oh, we are talking about. Well, the Health Secretary, James Murray will be with us, but we are. Tomorrow we're going to try and work out what the big challenges are for the incoming Prime Minister at home and abroad. And we're talking to Lord Blunkett, who was one of Andy Burnham's first bosses in politics, and he's got a big review of police coming out on Monday. And actually we'll be reporting on that across the BBC a bit later on today. And Michael Gove and Robert Jenrick are joining us too.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Okay. Henry's interview in full is out there in your feeds. Laura's article newsletter is out there in your inboxes or and on the front of the BBC website, by the way. So with that in mind, we say thank you very much for listening and goodbye.

[Laura Kuenssberg]

Goodbye.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Goodbye.

[Schwab Advisor Services Advertiser]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you so much for making it to the end of newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason and Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. Don't forget you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast. Bye.

[Asma Khalid]

Is the American Dream still possible? I'm Asma Khalid, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. One of the most successful experts exports the United States has ever sold the world. Is the American Dream that tantalizing promise of a better, freer, richer life? But is it still attainable?

[Paddy O'Connell]

I feel like the American Dream is

[Henry Zeffman]

alive, but not well.

[Asma Khalid]

For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.