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A
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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New school year, new routines, and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, Caulipower's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas, all natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks ready in minutes in something the.
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Visit eatcolipower.com to find a store near you. Looking for a fantasy that will keep you up all night? From Blood and Ash isn't just a story. It's the beginning of an obsession. From Blood and Ash launches you into a world where forbidden desire collides with deadly secrets and every choice could ignite a war. Expect heart pounding romance, fierce battles and a heroine who refuses to be caged. If you crave danger, passion and twists you'll never see coming, start the journey today. Grab from Blood and Ash. Available in print, ebook and audiobook and enter a series you'll never want to leave.
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C
Right, should we just explain what's going on?
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A
I hope someone will to me. Yes.
- [01:11]
C
So basically, we've just spent an hour and 15 minutes in the newscast studio recording a review of the year.
- [01:16]
D
Is it that long?
- [01:18]
C
Yeah, I mean, it flew by. Time flies when you're having fun, Chris. And we were asked to do this by Radio 4 so that Radio 4 listeners could have a blast of the newscast vibe, which they're listening to on Boxing Day. But you can listen to this episode of Newscast from Christmas Eve on BBC Sounds. And we're recording it on the 12th of December. Clear.
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A
I hope there's going to be a test or a chart about what day it is.
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B
Yes.
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C
It's kind of like the multiverse of madness, isn't it? We've gone quantum.
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D
So we are pre Christmas in a digital space and we are post Christmas in an analog space and we're recording.
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C
This bit of newscast. We just recorded the episode.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Which means Laura's gone to go and do something else. So Laura's not here right now.
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A
So we're actually. We're in a time gap. A warp.
- [02:02]
C
Yeah. And we're now going to go back in time to look at some of the momentous things that happened in 2025 in a newscast style. Newscast.
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D
Newscast from the BBC.
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A
My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day.
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C
Have you said thank you once? So can I present a letter from the King?
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A
Thank you very much. Think about the swing.
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B
Think about the change Israel and Hamas have now reached an agreement. Angela Rayner has resigned as Deputy Prime Minister.
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D
Next time in, I interrupt your Cheerios.
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B
To bring you this frightening message about.
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D
Income tax lie me.
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C
Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.
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D
And it's Chris in the studio.
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B
And it's Laura in the newscast studio.
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A
And it's Paddy in the newscast studio.
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C
Now, it's rare for us four to be together because me and Chris tend to do newscast during the week and you too, Laura and Paddy do newscast at the weekends. But because Christmas is a time when people get together in weird combinations. Sorry. Good combination.
- [02:54]
B
Oh, my God, it's started already.
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C
Good combinations. We spend a lot of our time talking about politics because we're all politics nerds. Keir Starmer is a pescatarian, isn't he? So he won't be having a turkey sandwich on Boxing Day as he reflects on the year.
- [03:08]
B
Well, I don't know, because some people do smuggle through a little bit of poultry or meat at Christmas time, don't they? I mean, I don't know. He has been a veggie for a long time with the odd bit of fish, and I think a salmon tikka or something like that is his favorite thing to cook.
- [03:21]
C
Something to ask at the first lobby briefing of the day.
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B
There you go. First interview of the year. Did you have turkey or even f on top of a faux turkey? I don't know, but yes.
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C
Anyway, this is a faux device to think about how Keir Starmer might be thinking as he looks back on his first full year as Prime Minister, because the election was in July, the year before. Chris, do you think he will be feeling chipper? Does he seem chipper when you've seen him at the closing stages of this year?
- [03:45]
D
I mean, the short and blunt answer is no, not really. It's been a really difficult year, I think, for Keir Starmer. They're aware of that in Downing Street. There's been a persistence, and we'll no doubt get into this, a persistence of the kind of competitive spirit across politics, both at a UK level and at a devolved level as well. There's been a persistence to reform UK's stickiness at the top of the opinion polls and their capacity to make a lot of the political weather. And there's been a persistence of conversations and chat and they are very, very real within the Labour Party about whether Keir Starmer is the person to lead them all the way through next year and towards the next general election. Now, we shouldn't underprice the potential that Keir Starmer sticks around, but we shouldn't underprice either. The reality of the conversations that are going on occasionally burst out in public. They are incredibly live and private within the Labour Party about that question and why? I mean, fundamentally, because you look at opinion polls and weekly election results at local authority level, et cetera, et cetera, and Labour are in a really, really, really difficult place and we shouldn't underestimate that. And the stickiness of it is what is worrying for people in government, because it's gone on for much of this calendar year.
- [05:03]
B
I think that's right. I think it's been an absolute horror show and I think you'll think 2025, thank God, that one's over. And if we spin back to the end of 24, our conversation this time last year was, oh, well, it's been a tricky start. And they found that it's really hard, isn't it? Oh, and they were kind of thinking, well, it's teething troubles, we'll get the rates at the number 10, we'll kind of work it out and a bit harder than we thought, and the numbers are a bit more grizzly than we thought, but, yeah, we'll get ourselves together. 12 months. The reflections are not that everything's worse, but also they're not as good at it as they hope they might be. This doesn't mean that 2026 is going to be a year of doom for Keir Starmer. There is an outcome where things look better, but I think it's been a. A very, very tough year with a few highlights, particularly his sort of profile on the foreign stage. But when it comes to things at home, it's really been a shocker.
- [05:56]
C
And Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor, will be popping in shortly to talk about some of the things that have happened on the world stage. Paddy. Chris referred to a few of the moments where Keir Starmer's vulnerabilities were revealed, things like the local elections and the summer. Are there other moments for you where you thought, oh, this is a government in trouble?
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A
Rachel Reese crying Peter Mandelson pictured urinating in London, having been sacked. I mean, these are absolutely. This is true. It's not even fiction.
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C
Chris well, so that brings us on to how many quite senior colleagues Keir Starmer has either had to let go or has just sort of lost.
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D
And I think that contributes, as Laura was saying, to where their mood is at the moment, because they've had various goes at sort of reboots, both in terms of staffing. And in terms of how they go about prosecuting the business of government.
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B
And in the last couple of days I've been asking lots of people in different parties and in different bits of our sort of political machine what their reflections on this year have been. And several sources have pointed to Starmer ditching his welfare reforms.
- [07:01]
C
Yes.
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B
As being the moment which was in June, which was in June when various things happened that have subsequently set a chart. So number one, Starmer, rather than trying to stick it to his angry backbenchers and said, I've got a huge majority, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, dropped his plans. Two, by dropping his welfare plans, many people in the labor movement would say that's the moment when they gave up on really being a reforming government. Three, that's the moment that set huge consequences in chain for the financial position.
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D
Absolutely, yes.
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C
Rachel Reeves we got the budget we.
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B
Got because of the welfare changes that were, that we didn't have. And four, it set the political divide between labor and the Conservatives reforms off, sort of doing a slightly different thing. Their position on some benefits is. Well, we wouldn't, we actually, we, we would go along with allowing bigger families to claim benefits. So that's a sort of different thing. But it's also defined the battle between the two traditional parties. And I think that moment really is a kind of mega, mega, mega one. And it's very uncomfortable for Labour for all sorts of different reasons. Although in the short term they, that change of tack on welfare has allowed the Labour backed benches to actually find themselves with something to.
- [08:23]
D
That's definitely true. When I speak to lots of Labour backbenchers across the political wings of the party, broadly, you know, there is a lot of support for that, but also tinged with the politics of saying, hang on a minute. When you hear the Prime Minister passionately arguing about his desire to cut child poverty, there are plenty of Labour MPs who say yes, but look how long it took him to do it. And in the meantime slung half a dozen of his MPs out of the parliamentary party for a while for advocating that, you know, in the first few months of the Labour government.
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C
And by the magic of podcasting, we're now joined by BBC economics editor Faisal Islam. Hello, Faisal.
- [09:01]
A
Hello.
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C
Now, I will always remember where I was on the 2nd of April and not just cause it was my birthday, but you and I were sat in the studio doing an episode of newscast about Donald Trump standing in the Rose Garden of the White House with a big cardboard board which Had a list of countries, countries, and the enormous but varied tariffs, the import taxes he was going to slap on all those countries there. And then looking back on that moment, how do you reflect on it?
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E
I mean, utterly extraordinary moment, not just for the year, but actually in our understanding of how the world economy, how America functions. It's economic, but it's also geopolitical. It's domestic politics, too. There's so many consequences that come from that. But it is just worth dwelling on that moment that, you know, the willingness to sort of rub everyone's face in it around the world.
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A
My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day waiting for a long time. April 2, 2025, will forever be remembered as the day American industry was reborn, the day America's destiny was reclaimed, and the day that we began to make America wealthy again. Make it wealthy, good and wealthy.
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E
So you take it at face value and you have all the actual questions about the policy. But then it was pretty clear to us that some of this wasn't really well thought through, that there was some fairly random equation, it transpired, had underpinned the numbers. They claimed that this was some act of high academia, but it was turning out that if you cancelled out the numbers, it turned out to a very, very simple equation.
- [10:36]
D
And the sheer theatrical absurdity of that moment. I remember somebody in government saints for that night, that they were themselves watching it, you know, all hunched a screen.
- [10:45]
C
And the numbers are quite hard to.
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D
Read well, because the way it was held next to the lectern, depending on where you were on the list, you could only see you're trying to read across and then waiting for the reveal.
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A
7%. I think you can, for the most part, see it. Those with good eyes with bad eyes. We didn't want to bring. It's very windy out here. We didn't want to bring out the big charts because it had no chance of standing. Fortunately, we came armed with a little.
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D
That's one thing us and our newscasters experiencing that way, but people in government were experiencing that way.
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A
And I think, in other words, they.
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D
Charge us, we charge them, we charge them less.
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A
So how can anybody be upset? They will be, because we never charged anybody anything. But now we're going to charge European Union. They're very tough, very, very tough traders.
- [11:29]
D
It's just a reminder for them in the early months, as it was then, of a second Trump term, of the roller coaster of dealing with this White House.
- [11:37]
E
I think you can say this now. I've been on the White House briefing with Pete Navarro beforehand, who's their trade rep, who's their, who's their trade rep, who's been slightly parked because he was saying things like this is the sum of all. This number is the sum of all cheating. He said that on the record. So I feel I can reveal, because.
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C
The Trump administration felt that this is how other countries were taking advantage of America by selling them loads of stuff.
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E
Therefore, the act of selling more to America than America sells to you is by definition cheating. But then how it's received around the world, I've always said this has been an absolute vital part of the story around the world. The extent to which the rest of the world could have decided to kind of coalesce and say, well, you do what you want. We're going to carry on trading together. To some extent that that is what happened.
- [12:22]
A
One of the best examples for me, because it combines the way that the news cycle has gone through the looking glass with reality, is that the man who used to run the bank of England is now the Prime Minister of Canada. And he had to address the Canadian people to say because of the tariff war with its southern neighbor, United States, they were going to have to recalibrate the way Canada runs its economy. And I'm thinking there in one three minute address to the Canadian people, is all of this brought home to you? It's allies who have been disrupted. It's not just traditional lines. And Trump supporters say, did you hear America First? Did anyone hear that in the election campaign? Because that is what has happened. That is what that policy is.
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B
But Faisal, tell us this is the impact on the world economy, actually what we thought it might be. So when that story emerged and then the big giant board emerged and there was lots of kind of earnest chatter maybe from some of the people in this room saying, oh my God, this could be an absolutely seismic shock. This could mean trade war for everyone and penury in all those societies that rely on open trading. I know it's not fair to ask you to summarize what the impact's been.
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E
Yeah.
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B
Like, has it been that sort of doomsday scenario that some people expect?
- [13:34]
E
It's a very, very good question, Laura. And so far it hasn't been, I think is, is, is the fair, is the fair point to say. But actually what happened after April, immediately there was whiplash in the markets in the way we don't expect America to be impacted. So you saw stock markets fall. We thought, everyone thought, indeed, CEOs of the biggest American companies told me when the stock market falls, he'll rein it back in again. He didn't, but he did rain it back in when it started to affect the American government borrowing markets, which was totally unexpected. There was some really wild.
- [14:04]
B
Was moved by the markets reacting against him.
- [14:07]
E
That's.
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C
Always chickens out.
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B
Chickens out.
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E
Yeah, yeah. But interestingly, it was, it was the idea that this kind of ultra safe haven, this absolute foundational rule of the world economy, which is in times of stress, you lend your money to the American government, had begun to become.
- [14:25]
A
Yeah.
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E
Come into doubt in that April.
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A
But there's also a bookend to Taco, which is wacko, which is the world always chickens out.
- [14:32]
E
Well, this explains Laura's point here in a way. There was a lack of retaliation apart from Canada, which did. And there's a couple of other countries, but it was basic and, and famously, this is the important subtlety here, China. So what happened quite quickly was having sprayed that blue board was like, we're taking on the whole world. Then it, quite quickly you had the bond market response and then it became about China. Now, if it had been about China from the beginning, you never would have alienated all of your allies in the first place.
- [15:00]
B
And if we're just being really basic about it, sorry, if you're not an economist and you're not someone who's following this closely. This whole tariff thing is about governments and in this case, Donald Trump deciding to make it more expensive for other countries to sell stuff into America. And when they do that, essentially it makes it more expensive to trade and less appealing to trade in that kind of free flowing way around the world, which is what governments have for decades tried to pursue. And that's why Trump's change of direction.
- [15:28]
C
And the U.S. government. The U.S. government gets the revenue from the tariffs, but the importers have to pay it and then the importers might pass that on to their customers.
- [15:36]
D
Yes.
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E
And the idea, and so it's worth explaining what the Trump administration feel that they're going to get from this is that you create a massive incentive to build in America to reshore factories to bring those jobs. There is some evidence of some of this starting to happen too.
- [15:51]
C
And Chris, my favourite moment that you and Faisal had on air this year was on the budget program. Oh, yes, on BBC and before the budget, you had the budget in front of you.
- [16:02]
B
Because if you can see my panel here, they are furiously reading online what basically the, the obr.
- [16:11]
D
So someone has managed to hit the publish button a little bit earlier than they ought to have done. And this document is, is out there and here we are digesting or attempting to digest 200 and what is it?
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B
I mean, what is it? This document in itself tells you a lot of the things that everything is about to say.
- [16:28]
E
It tells you all the big stats that we were just speculating.
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D
I mean, it was, I mean it was, it was an extraordinary moment, wasn't it? It was a proper kind of jaw dropping moment that here we were, 40 before the budget and we are reading it out courtesy of the Office for Budget Responsibilities document ending up online and accessible rather earlier, a good couple of hours earlier than it ought to have been. Government and not to local government as a standard with council tax. Even as I'm reading that out, the sheer absurdity of reading out something that the Chancellor has not yet announced in the House of Commons is mind blowing.
- [17:01]
B
I mean, it's a terrible sort of end to all the speculation.
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C
The boss of the Office of Budget Responsibility resigned as a result. And then, Laura, we're in the weird situation where so much of the conversation after the budget budget wasn't actually about what was in the budget. It was about what Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, had said about the budget in advance and the extent to which she told the whole truth rather than the actual numbers in the document. And yeah, choices that they made.
- [17:21]
B
That's right. And part of the reason for that is because the treasury made a decision late in the summer, really, they thought with some justification, that the people who marked their homework, the Office for Budget Responsibility, were going to come and tell them that essentially the country was poorer than had previously been thought and that was going to show up in the budget and that was going to make it look like the government had made all sorts of terrible decisions. And it was on them that the economy was even more gloomy than it had been when they walked into number 10. There was a decision, therefore, in the treasury, not perhaps you might say unreasonably to say, we have to get people to understand that things are worse not because of our fault, but things are worse before we even get to the budget. Cue then, however, a period of probably, you know, 812 weeks of very deliberate spinning, briefing, expectation setting, whatever you want to call it, about how awful things were going to be. Except that when the OBR put their numbers out into the shiny light of day, we know that there was some good news that Rachel Reeves chose not to highlight. And that's essentially the trap that they got themselves into. Actually, the budget in isolation was a really landmark event. It was a solidly old labor or traditional labor budget that said, okay, we're not going to go back to trying to cut lots of money from public spending. We're not going to go back to trying to reduce taxes on people in any meaningful way, because we're trying to create a sense of aspiration. It said we're going to charge people more tax because the economy's in a bad place, because. And we want to spend more on public spending and we want to keep giving money to people who we believe need help from the taxpayer. But that message had very little chance of coming across because of the rare about its presentation. Although I wonder if, in the fullness of time, actually we'll forget about all of that fuss and concentrate more on that as a landmark budget and how it changed things politically and how else are there for many businesses? And as ever, it depends who you ask. But there are a lot of businesses who looked at it and thought, well, hang on a minute, this is no longer a government that says growth is at the top of its list. This is no longer a government that wants to make a serious dent in the national debt. This is no longer a government that is really interested. Interested in trying to make savings in departments where the bills are going up and up and up. But it was a really weird few weeks, frankly.
- [19:46]
C
And Faisal, where. I mean, where does it leave the government's record on the economy?
- [19:50]
E
I think you could look at the past year as a bit of a wasted year in the sense that they will say they've achieved all sorts of stuff. You know, they came in saying stability after whatever it was, four Prime Ministers and three chancellors, and it didn't look particularly stable over the past year in particular, as you've already discussed with this roundabout, on welfare. And if you think about it, the motivation behind the welfare cut was stability. It was to. So that everyone would believe that they would abide by their rules. And the OBR numbers, which was then.
- [20:21]
D
Just to briefly chip in the kind of midwife of the political row that came because so many of the Labour critics said this is being looked at purely through the prism of the numbers rather than making a moral argument.
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E
Yeah, and it's quite. I mean, as Alanis Morissette would say, isn't it ironic they went for massive stability and in trying to get that stability, they got profound political instability that they haven't been able to put back in the box, one might argue. But I think you could argue right now at the Budget, they are now back where they would have wanted to have been a year ago. And I think I've heard You know, friendlier opposition voices saying they really should have done all of what they've done. Now.
- [21:00]
B
Can I just say for the record as well, it's not ironic if it rains on your red wedding day. It's just really bad luck. Like that's not ironic, that's just bad luck.
- [21:08]
E
The thing I said was ironic.
- [21:09]
C
Many podcasts have grappled with that issue.
- [21:12]
A
Is it true to say that the budget as delivered was the one that Rishi Sunak promised, not the one that Keir Starmer promised?
- [21:19]
E
Oh God, I haven't even thought. That's very profound.
- [21:22]
A
That, well, it's just got.
- [21:23]
B
When Sunak said labour will put your taxes up, that's.
- [21:24]
E
Oh, I see.
- [21:25]
B
Yeah.
- [21:25]
E
No, well, I, I have a theory that if things, they they've now Kitchen sink the numbers, they've accepted the OBR numbers. They're not, they're now, they're now. There is now a symmetrical risk. Okay, so things could be worse and that's the general vibe coming out Westminster. But actually there is the possibility now that things could be better and then you start getting the reverse of what you had last year, which is that there's, there's more, there's money to spare. Right. Because the growth has been better. So it's kind of 50, 50 now where it wasn't the case over the past year. So I think therefore there is a chance that they don't end up enacting that tax rise.
- [22:02]
C
Remember, because it freezes of the thresholds penciled in several years.
- [22:06]
E
2028, it's very rare that you get such a major. If you look at budgets where they move taxes, it's very rare that. It's kind of a post dated check for three years. That is pretty unique. Right?
- [22:17]
B
Who's ever met someone going, hello, I'm a politician that would like to put your taxes up just as I'm asking you for your vote in a general election.
- [22:23]
E
So, so it wouldn't if things, which I'm not saying they're counting on this, but if, if we had a reasonable amount of growth, not even a boom, they would have the space never to have to go through with this. So I, so I do wonder. And so then what is it they've managed to, to I think they would argue they have bought some credibility with the markets from 2028 with a tax rise that may or may not be needed. But up front, what have they done? They've spent more and they've borrowed more for whatever reason, but they've managed to keep the markets Very calm as a win.
- [22:51]
C
And that's important because it's how much the government has to pay an interest on its debt.
- [22:54]
B
But the thing from where you get the mashup of politics and economics, I think, as you say, Patty, there's a lot of people I talked to in the last few weeks ago just, why didn't we do this 12 months ago? And there's a sense, actually, as we come to the end of the 2025, that so much of this year, one Labour contact said to me yesterday, we're just gonna look back and think we squandered so much.
- [23:14]
D
And all of that contributed to why they felt that need, alongside all the arguments about productivity reviews and all the rest of it, to do all of that pitch rolling, to use the Westminster phrase, pre the budget. Because a year before, they talked about this being the once in a parliament, once in a generation budget and all the rest of it. And there they were, having to come back as opposed to having done the whole shebang first time around.
- [23:33]
C
So funny. I had a long conversation with Jonathan Agnew before the Ashes started, and he was talking to me about this thing of pitch rolling, this memor metaphor that we constantly use in politics, of politicians preparing the ground for what they're going to do. And Agras was telling me that he once went to a cricket match where they'd rolled the pitch too heavily because you have different weights of pitch rollers, and if you roll the pitch too heavily, it can go wrong when it comes to the match. And some would argue that's a perfect metaphor for what happens to range roll.
- [23:59]
D
Really? What is a pitch roll?
- [24:01]
B
Is it like that big, round steel cylinder?
- [24:04]
C
It's a thing, yeah. Oh, and there ends my cricket knowledge.
- [24:07]
D
Jonathan Agnew and Alanis Morissette, the two are political.
- [24:13]
B
Cricket.
- [24:15]
C
Would you like to. Would you. As you leave the podcast studio, would you like to give us a moment of the year?
- [24:19]
E
I would have liked to, but Paddy stole it, didn't he? The old scoundrel here. But no, no, he didn't.
- [24:25]
B
I mean, the scoundrel's fine.
- [24:28]
E
Okay.
- [24:29]
A
That means I've run the risk of being half right if you were going to pick it.
- [24:32]
E
No, I was. I was. It was. It was. It was everything that Trump did matter, but everything the rest of the world did matter. So I managed. I got an invitation to go on Mark Carney's plane in his last, last day flying around Canada.
- [24:43]
A
This is better than most before he got elected.
- [24:45]
E
And I got an interview with him as the votes were starting to be counted. And I had a bit of a private chat with him. And whatever we feel about commentating on Trump and his policies, it was quite something to hear from somebody. America's biggest ally about to be elected prime minister just missed out on a majority was nowhere near being elected. Their party on 14. But because of the Trump issue, that was the prime cause of his. Of his. Of his sort of comeback. But to hear him contemplating everything he had to contemplate about a radically different USA was an astonishing moment and stayed with me for the rest. The rest of the year.
- [25:26]
C
Well, that was like a little scene from a novel there.
- [25:28]
E
Yeah, yeah, I know, it was. It was like. But it was like I got inside the hotel where the. Where they were waiting for the votes. Him.
- [25:34]
C
Alanis Morissette wasn't there.
- [25:36]
E
No, no, there wasn't.
- [25:36]
B
He did do some dancing.
- [25:38]
C
He did do some.
- [25:39]
E
He did famously do some, I think, break. Did he do break dancing? There was some sort of hip hop. Yeah, There was a Canadian hip hop band that he. He championed.
- [25:47]
A
Yeah.
- [25:48]
D
No, no, no.
- [25:51]
C
He play ice hockey with Mike Myers, AKA Austin Powers during the election.
- [25:55]
E
He did.
- [25:55]
A
He did.
- [25:56]
B
Remember that.
- [25:57]
E
As many Canadians as possible to go back to Alanis. Isn't it ironic again that they are now sharing the World cup up.
- [26:04]
B
What did he have on the plane?
- [26:06]
E
It was standard Air Canada stuff. Some.
- [26:09]
C
Some.
- [26:10]
E
Some nuts. Maple nuts.
- [26:11]
A
Did he eat maple nuts?
- [26:15]
E
Maple syrup in nuts and maple syrup.
- [26:20]
A
Faisal's new career in hospitality has got.
- [26:22]
E
Off to a shape. It's time to go. Did the last one have any other songs, by the way? On that note, I'm off.
- [26:29]
A
It's.
- [26:29]
C
Thank you, Faisal.
- [26:40]
A
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B
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A
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E
Great at any age?
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B
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E
We create products that make you feel.
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A
Confident in your skin at the age you are now.
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Meaningful beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com. i have some very exciting news about.
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B
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C
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B
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C
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B
Putting your phone away.
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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A
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E
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A
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E
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- [28:56]
C
And now we're joined by BBC International editor Jeremy Bowen.
- [28:58]
A
Hello, Jeremy, Nice to be here.
- [29:00]
C
Now, I'm just thinking there's a bit of a symmetry to this year in that we were talking to Feisal about April when Trump unveiled all the tariffs and what that meant for the economy. We then got a sort of symmetrical moment towards the end of the year when Trump unveiled his national security strategy, which had a sort of similar effect on the world's diplomats.
- [29:17]
A
Yes, it did have an effect, but really the signs have been in the wind for such a long time. And I think, as you mentioned earlier, he said all this stuff in the election, people didn't really take him very seriously. It's just talk. He's a blustering kind of guy. But then he actually did it because he surrounded himself with people who, who will do as he wants and execute his will. And I think that if the message to us in Europe has not got through yet, that America looks at Europe and Britain in a very different way than the way it has since the war, well, you know you haven't been listening, because actually, it is very clear, we all need to realize it, that that word that people used to use, Atlanticist, Americans who believed in that what happened here in Europe was very important for America. Forget it. Trump is interested in making America great again. And if he can extract some money out of us, maybe some mining concessions, something like that, he'll do it. But otherwise, you know, we've got to show that we're worth it.
- [30:21]
B
So one of my contacts said to me yesterday, the important moment for them this year, the most important of all, was that moment at NATO where Trump's Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, turned up and said, yeah, we really mean it, and you guys are going to have to pay up. And in the kind of terms that, yes, previous American presidents had hinted at it. And we know that, you know, even President Obama and then Biden were tearing the hair out, saying, come on, guys, you got to pony up. You can't just react, rely on us anymore.
- [30:49]
C
After World War II, first general and then President Eisenhower was one of NATO's strongest supporters.
- [30:56]
A
He believed in a strong relationship with Europe. However, by the end of Eisenhower's presidency, even he was concerned that Europe was.
- [31:06]
C
Not shouldering enough of its own defense, nearly making, in Eisenhower's words, quote, a.
- [31:14]
A
Sucker out of Uncle Sam. Well, like President Eisenhower, this administration believes in alliances, deeply believes in alliances. But make no mistake, President Trump will not allow anyone to turn Uncle Sam into Uncle Sucker.
- [31:35]
B
To say it in those bold terms as they did that weekend, that changed everything. And as you say, Jeremy, if our politicians or people listening haven't been paying attention, there is this sense now, like, well, more fool them. And the consequences are so enormous, and I suppose most profoundly right now is what does that mean for the chances of a peace deal in Ukraine?
- [31:54]
A
Well, it wasn't just Hegseth as well. Don't forget that just after that, JD Vance spoke at the Munich Security Conference. Just after that, there was the notorious shootout in the Oval Office where.
- [32:08]
C
Metaphorical.
- [32:09]
A
Metaphorical. Where Trump had a big go at Zelensky. He tried to stand up for himself. And then J.D. vance waded in, throwing metaphorical hand grenades. You're gambling with World War 3 and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country.
- [32:27]
E
That's back to you.
- [32:29]
A
Far more than a lot of people said they should have.
- [32:31]
C
Have you said thank you once this entire meeting?
- [32:34]
A
No, in this entire meeting.
- [32:35]
C
Have you said thank you? You went to Pennsylvania and camp.
- [32:39]
A
All told, I think the message has Been delivered and delivered again and delivered once more. And if we don't get it by now, then really we need to just go and live in a croft somewhere. But. But it means that say, la LA LA. But 2025 was quite appealing.
- [32:54]
B
I was going to say that might be tempting anyway. You've got the right jumper for that one, Chris.
- [32:57]
D
Exactly.
- [32:57]
A
No, it's appealing, but just in terms of end of year rap, 2025 was a win for Putin. Yeah, I'd say so far, in terms of the way that it is now absolutely clear that Donald Trump sees Putin as. Not as an equal, of course, because he doesn't see anybody as an equal, but he sees him as the kind of guy he can do business with, that the world should be run by the big leaders of the big countries. And Putin is one, President Xi has won, President Trump is really is the other. And it is absolutely clear. And you could see it in that most recent 28 point plan that they brought up for peace, quote, unquote, in Ukraine. It was essentially a list of Russian talking points.
- [33:49]
C
And just to be transparent, we're recording this episode on Friday 12th December. So we're assessing the world as we know it on this day in the.
- [33:56]
A
Middle of December, with Trump, of course, pulling levers, everything could have changed by tomorrow.
- [34:01]
C
Jeremy, you spent so much time this year in the Middle East.
- [34:04]
A
Yes.
- [34:04]
C
How huge a moment was it when there was finally a ceasefire in Gaza and the return of the living hostages?
- [34:09]
A
Well, it was massive. It was massive. I was in Tel Aviv that day when the hostages were coming out and the huge crowd that gathered was so emotional. It was a moment of release for the people waiting and watching, as well as for the men being driven out of Gaza. The crowd followed every moment on a big screen. The first seven hostages are now out. There's a real sense of expectation. They're expecting the next batch in about an hour. Palestinian prisoners were released by Israel as soon as its hostages were safe. These came back to Khan Yunus in Gaza. Palestinians see prisoners of the Israelis as now heroes, and they were given a hero's welcome. But their reception also showed relief that it is safe now to gather in big crowds in Gaza and hope as strong as people feel in Israel, that the ceasefire can become permanent. Some of the former prisoners started their family reunions before they'd even got off the bus. Now, the one thing we have to really get on board about this was that the Trump Gaza plan was not a peace deal. He claimed it was going to sort out 3,000 years of toil in the Middle East. I mean, that's complete nonsense. What it was was a ceasefire agreement and a hostage release deal which no one else had got. No, no, I mean, he did it. Political win for Baltimore. Absolutely. No, he did. He used his power. And the way he used his power was to put pressure on Netanyahu, which Biden never did, even though potentially they have the leverage. And the key moment I thought was when you saw by God, this man really does mean it is. The White House released a photo of Netanyahu having to read an apology drafted by the White House to the Prime Minister of Qatar. After, I think it was the 9th of September, the Israelis bombed Doha to go after Hamas, they said, and they killed some people in the House, but not the leadership that they were after. And I think Biden probably would have said something like, Israel has a right to defend itself. But Trump said, wait a minute, these people are allies. They're doing business with the United States brackets. They also gave me a very nice aircraft. So there was this picture. If you haven't seen it, look it up. It's amazing. He's sitting there with a pad in front of him. Netanyahu reading out the apology to the Prime Minister of Qatar. Trump is there holding. It's an old fashioned telephone with a wiggly cable. Trump is holding the base, scowling. And Netanyahu to make sure, I suppose he stays to it keeps on his script. And it's a moment actually for a man like Netanyahu of abject humiliation.
- [37:04]
B
You will say sorry, won't you?
- [37:06]
A
It was like you have kicked a ball the football through the neighbor's greenhouse and he's had enough of it. And you're gonna have to apologize now. It was that kind of moment. But what was also interesting, I felt, was the fact the White House released the picture so we could all share in it. And there's a sort of other. There's a postscript, isn't there, which is when Donald Trump then calls for a pardon for Netanyahu. Well, he's good cop, bad cop, you know, it's tough love. And they are looking at this in a serious manner. Now in Israel, the president, I think one thing they've discussed is maybe we'll talk about a pardon, of course, a pardon for a crime he denies ever having committed, that he's on trial for and he hasn't been convicted of, which is massive corruption. That's the allegation which he absolutely denies. And the deal that some of Israel have talked about is that okay. He might get a pardon as long as he promises to retire.
- [37:59]
B
Well, their election's coming, right, aren't they?
- [38:01]
A
By October. They have to have elections in next year. Yeah.
- [38:04]
C
And, Chris, in terms of the UK's response to lots of these things, I've noticed in lots of the readouts we get from Downing street about meetings of the coalition of the Willing or calls between Donald Trump and Keir Starmer, they talk about the Euro Atlantic region. They're almost like constantly trying to remind the Americans that the US and the UK are kind of linked together.
- [38:25]
D
Well, it's back to where our conversation started 10 minutes or so ago, isn't it? Around that language of the last generation, talking about that idea of Atlanticism, which has been frayed, smashed by the last 12 months.
- [38:37]
B
Yeah.
- [38:38]
D
Put it in the history books completely. And then you've seen it in the sort of bigger picture, which we might come on to, around how the Prime Minister has managed his relationship with Donald Trump. And that day, before the flare up, that Jeremy was talking around, around President Zelenskyy's encounter with the President in the White House, with the Prime Minister there and attempting to maintain and develop this unlikely, but as this year concludes, still maintained relationship between the Prime Minister and.
- [39:05]
A
The President, do you think the use of that language of Atlanticism and so on, it's a bit like, you know, the spurned lover saying.
- [39:13]
C
It's actually wishful thinking.
- [39:14]
A
We had some good times together. We were so happy.
- [39:18]
D
Yeah.
- [39:18]
A
What went wrong?
- [39:19]
D
Yeah, I think there's a.
- [39:20]
A
Can't we have it again? No, we can't. I've moved on.
- [39:22]
D
Yeah, I think there is a bit of that. But then. But when you speak to folk in Downing street around that and they're aware of the criticism that comes about. Are you fawning in front of an American President? There was that moment in Canada. It's another reference to Canada at the G7 back in the summer, where the President and the Prime Minister are there. And you might remember the image of the President's papers blowing out of his hands and the Prime Minister picking them up. And that obviously looked like he was sort of bending, literally bending at the knee.
- [39:47]
A
But after that Oval Office meeting, the New York Times used the word in its reporting of it, used the word obsequious the same time that the Brit team was saying Prime Minister played a blind.
- [39:57]
D
But the counter to that. Oh, sorry, we might be making this.
- [39:59]
A
Yeah.
- [39:59]
B
The UK's ended up with a better deal than other countries in terms of.
- [40:02]
D
Yeah. And the argument, those in Downing street make is what's the alternative? Having a massive bust up and a breakdown of a relationship and better to have a good relationship than a poor one.
- [40:09]
A
Flattery words. Flattery words. Maybe we should just be. It's rail politic.
- [40:15]
D
And broadly speaking, we were reflecting earlier on the really difficult year that the Prime Minister has had in the interest of looking at it in the round that they would chalk up as a positive. The relationship perhaps unlikely, but the relationship they've managed to maintain with winds that they would point to as far as that, that that personal friendship and bilateral relationship has been. Has been maintained.
- [40:39]
C
And Jeremy, before you go, what's been a kind of momentous moment for you that sums up the year?
- [40:43]
A
Well, we've already mentioned it in a way. It was February, those meetings, I think, particularly the Trump. Well, I was in, I was in Ukraine when Trump gave Zelensky that roasting. I mean that for me I had actually been. We'd been working quite hard. I think I might have been having a bit of a doze in my room in Ukraine and you get to my age, you need to rest a bit and just harbour your resources for those late nights on the 10 o' clock news and 12 midnight, by the way, in Kiev on the top of a sometimes freezing cold rooftop. So anyway, I looked at my phone, what the hell's been going on? And there was, you know, it was splashing all over the place that there'd been this extraordinary. And I, in fact, I think it was still going on at that point. So I turned on the telly and watched it with my mouth dropping, because the way that that was happening, that what it revealed about Trump, his attitudes to the war, to Ukraine, to Zelensky and the wider issues of European security and world actually stability, I thought it spoke volumes. So that for me is the thing I keep going back to. And also in Ukraine at the time, my God, their jaws were dropping all over the place about what they were listening to.
- [41:59]
B
It was amazing. And then he of course came straight here and remember the visuals of then Keir Starmer giving him a huge hug.
- [42:06]
C
To the end of the street.
- [42:08]
B
And then the next. That was important. That was important. It was important. And then the next day, Zelenskyy then sort of summons a few UK journalists. There was a few of us had the chance.
- [42:17]
D
Oh yes. Around the table at an airport, around.
- [42:19]
B
The table at Stansted Airport before he was flying back to Ukraine to sort of deliver then another public message. Interesting. On that occasion he insisted on speaking in Ukrainian because part of the problem in that terrible encounter, the Ukrainian side felt, was that he was communicating in his second language.
- [42:36]
D
Yeah, but then this is back, isn't it? The whole business of how European leaders then reflected on those weeks in February where so many of them were going out to Washington to meet President Trump in office for the first time and had given a huge amount of time. The French president had had his encounter earlier in the week, a huge amount of time and effort to how they would manage that sticky moment in the White House and have perhaps under played and prepared President Zelenskyy for how he should handle it.
- [43:05]
A
Zelenskyy really needed that support from Europeans. In March, I did. I was part of a three way interview in a. In an extraordinary studio set they'd built in one of the grand museums in Paris. Yeah, I went with, with Zelenskyy. It was a. The European Broadcasting Union had put this panel together to interview him and I was one of them. And actually I was amazed that Zelensky was so buoyant. And I, and I said to him, you know, off camera, said, you're looking very buoyant. He said, well, I've been, He said, I've been with Emmanuel, the President, and I'm going back to the Elysee for dinner with Emmanuel Macron again. And he's feeling looked after. He really, I think they were really looking after the guy and saying, don't worry, we're behind you, we're behind you. But of course, if the Americans did walk away, then they really would have to pony up probably quite good nosh.
- [43:59]
B
At the early Z as well, I would imagine.
- [44:01]
A
It's a pretty good wine list, I imagine. Imagine their wine cellar's pretty amazing.
- [44:05]
C
Jeremy, thank you very much.
- [44:06]
A
It's always a delight bringing it right.
- [44:09]
C
Back to the uk. Laura, we haven't talked about Nigel Farage yet and the rise of reform in the opinion polls at least.
- [44:15]
E
Yeah.
- [44:16]
B
And look, there's been, for me, there's been two central facts this year in Brit British politics. One is the massive hammering of a Prime Minister with a huge majority's authority and the huge beneficiaries and also the provocateurs of that have been Najafaraj's party, Reform uk.
- [44:31]
D
And these things overlap, of course.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah, exactly. I mean they're, they're sort of codependent, aren't they? And if you talk to senior people in reform, they quite freely admit, actually, if the other lot were doing fine, both the Tories and they talk about the sort of Omni Party, if the other, if the others were doing fine. We wouldn't even really need to be here. Right. So they're, they're sort of codependent in that way. But reform has been number one in the polls for months and months and months and months and months and they now control lots of local authorities. So they're not just in charge of the polls, they're also in charge of tens of billions of pounds. So they have had to deal with something that's quite new for them, is not just scrutiny of Nigel Farage having to do interviews and being on the telly, but scrutiny of the decisions that they're actually making. And guess what? They found that actually there's quite a gap between the rhetoric of campaigning and the reality of governing. And when we close this year and look ahead to the next, I think the defining question of this next period of time is going to be does reform meet these sky high expectations? Or potentially do they not quite meet that mark? And then maybe people will look back at 2025 and think, oh, did they peak too soon? But they got loads of money. They're the ones who've had the momentum alongside some of the other smaller parties. We've seen the Greens do really well, for example, particularly in the back half of 2025. But Nigel Farage yet again has been the outsider making the insiders lives very, very uncomfortable. And we've seen the politicians not just have to respond to him, but actually allow some of the arguments be defined by the challenge because he's been so good yet again picking up on public anxiety and perhaps, as critics would say, being willing to stoke that with great effect.
- [46:13]
D
In summary, what Laura's reflecting on there is that the prism through which we can look of 2025 domestic politics is a prism of reform because they have made the weather. They are the explanation, or at least a big part of the explanation, for why plenty of people in government and within the Labour fold are in a funk. They are the reason the Conservatives at the moment confront poll ratings that they have just never seen before. And at least until the last couple of months of the year, there was a whole load of questions about Kemi Badenoch and they will remain live for Kemi Badenoch for as long as the Conservatives are still in the position that they're in.
- [46:55]
C
And in terms of the political landscape now, I mean, we're having another bout of, oh, the old two party system is dead, but people have called time on the two party system of the laboratory monopoly or duopoly that they swap before they have.
- [47:10]
D
And so we should always avoid the temptation to be breathless around all of that. That said, as we head into 2026, that sense of multi party competitiveness around the UK is very, very real. So you go to Wales and you see not just the significance of reform, but the confidence, the real spring in their step that Clyde Cymru have at the moment with the prospect that perhaps they could be the biggest party coming out of the elections to the Senate in May. You head to Scotland and the Scottish National Party in devolved government for the best part of 20 years looked like they were on their uppers the general election and suddenly they are chipper and are confident about being the biggest party in the next Scottish Parliament. Then you have the rise of the Greens in England and Wales and the whole questions that have been and rouse, yes, not easy, but for your party, for Jeremy Corbyn and Zara Sultana. So that sort of smorgasbord of competitive competitiveness is very real and looks like it'll continue to be real into and through 2026.
- [48:23]
C
And the Lib Dems will want to take advantage of the smorgasbord as well. Okay, now I've been asking everyone for their big momentous moments of the year. Laura, what would you say was your big momentous moment of 2025?
- [48:33]
B
Can I have two?
- [48:35]
C
Yes.
- [48:35]
B
Okay. So one is well known, we've touched on it already. Labor ditching the welfare reforms, I think that has just had such consequences. It told us so much at the time and it's had massive consequences. People know if they've been paying attention to newscast then on the second issue that I'm kind of becoming slightly obsessed with this in the last couple of days, I'm recording on the of December, President Trump has signed an executive order saying that, and I'm paraphrasing that American states don't have the power to regulate AI businesses. So he's basically, his critics would say, said when it comes to artificial intelligence and the big tech companies in America, basically, and I'm paraphrasing to explain, they can do what they like and the consequences for that are in a million different ways, might be absolutely enormous. So to end with something that is one of my little hobby horses about tech and tech regulation, the dilemma for modern governments everywhere, I think that might be a completely enormous moment, not least actually because there's Republicans who think that he's made the wrong call on that.
- [49:39]
C
Now, Paddy, you've already had one bite at the momentous moment cherry by saying it was Trump and the tariffs do you want to have another bite? Is there another moment?
- [49:47]
A
Well, I think Caerphilly is an election moment and this business of multiparty politics, I think we'll look back and say Brexit broke the two party politics. And at the end of 2025, there's this line dance being done by the parties about the relationship with Europe, just as President Trump is breaking with Europe publicly. So why do I keep going back to Kefi? Because, ply, defeating Labour in Wales at the same time as defeating reform is the screeching reminder what listeners Radio 4 say all the time, politics is not Westminster. Can you remember me who lives in Caerphilly? Can you remember me who lives in Hoyk? And I think the May elections will bring this kind of screech in different colours from the heartlands.
- [50:34]
C
And of course, Caerphilly was a by election for the Senate, the Welsh Parliament, So.
- [50:37]
D
And just picking up on that, there's a fascinating kind of psychological moment for me when I was reporting in Caerphilly, which is we were going around speaking to all of the candidates from the. From the main parties and we'd spoken to Reform and we'd spoken to Plyde and I said to the team I was working with, oh, who are we doing next? Oh, Labour and the Conservatives. I mean, how absurd. The two dominating forces of Westminster politics for north of a century. And in my mind, they were the not significant parties and their share of the vote combined was tiny in that. In that contest. There's just a little bit sort of vignette about where our politics is at the moment.
- [51:17]
C
Was that your momentous moment of the year? A rainy afternoon in Wales, filming one day.
- [51:22]
D
It was a big moment. The two I would pick. Laura had two. Yes, two. So the moment I would pick was February in the White House with the Prime Minister and President Trump and the reveal of the latter for the state visit.
- [51:34]
A
Am I supposed to read it right now?
- [51:36]
D
Yeah, please do.
- [51:39]
A
I will do.
- [51:40]
D
I've got to tell him what your reaction is. I need to know.
- [51:44]
A
He is a great gentleman. A great, great gentleman. Oh, that's. Well. Well, that is really nice. I must make sure his signature's on that, otherwise it's not quite as meaningful. It is quite a signature. Isn't it? Beautiful. A beautiful man. A wonderful man.
- [52:08]
D
I've used this phrase before, but I'm going to use it again as a review of the year and then probably retire it. That idea with Donald Trump of Statecraft via stagecraft, using the stage and using it so effectively. And it being a much less anarchic environment to be in journalistically than I thought it would be going in, because he was the. The past master circus master in that. That environment and seeing how the Prime Minister handled that. And then the, the domestic moment picking up on our conversation about Reform was about 10 to 6 in the morning in a hall, the Halton Stadium in Witness for the Runcorn and Helsby by election result, which reform won only by a whisper. They only very, very narrowly won it. But it was a day which at that moment in time proved that they could match their opinion poll ratings, at least match their opinion poll ra with real votes in real elections. And so it was that sort of moment that has been cemented since about how they reform as things stand, are shaping so much of our political conversation.
- [53:14]
C
I'm gonna pick two moments and it's from the newscast podcast, which you can listen to every day of 2026 on BBC Sounds. And our back catalogue is available too. One of them was interviewing Nicola Sturgeon about her autobiography. And just a reminder that it doesn't matter how charismatic you are, are how hard working you are, how insurmountable or unstoppable you look. Politics usually comes from you in the end. And all these careers end and they usually end because of politics. And secondly, Chris, you and I recording an episode in the Cabinet Office briefing room under Whitehall, colloquially known as Cobra, even though that's not his real name, and just sitting in those chairs where Prime Ministers and Secretaries of State for decades have sat and grappled with crises. And so I now have a picture of what that room looks like in my mind, and the artwork and the screens and the carefully control, the lighting and the complete lack of windows, but just a reminder that actually you get crises thrown at you all the time and you never know where the next one might come from.
- [54:08]
D
And a moment to humbly reflect that as important as kind of, we hope that our jobs are scrutinizing and asking questions of those in power. When you go into a room like that and you imagine being a decision maker, the gravity of that in the moment. And yeah, it's easy. It's much easier to ask questions than it is to answer.
- [54:30]
C
And that is the moment we will end this review of the news in 2025. You can hear us every single day on the newscast podcast on BBC Sounds. Laura, thank you very much.
- [54:41]
B
It's always very nice to hang out. Thank you and happy Christmas, newscasters.
- [54:44]
C
Paddy, great to see you too. Yes.
- [54:46]
A
What an experience being in the room at the end of this year and for Faisal to back me up on something.
- [54:53]
C
And Chris, thank you for your insight today and always. Merry Christmas to you and thank you to you for listening. Bye bye.
- [55:01]
B
Newscast Newscast from the BBC from one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us any anytime@newscastbc.co.uk or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on +4403301239480. Be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.
- [55:49]
A
At the BBC. We go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling.
- [56:12]
C
It all starts with a subscription to.
- [56:14]
A
BBC.com find out more@BBC.com unlimited.