Newscast: The ‘Not Fit For Purpose’ Department - Part 2

Date: April 4, 2026
Hosts: Adam Fleming, Chris Mason
Guests: Charles Clarke (Home Secretary, 2004–2006, Labour), Amber Rudd (Home Secretary, 2016–2018, Conservative)

Overview

In the second installment of Newscast's mini-series on the Home Office, hosts Adam Fleming and Chris Mason invite two former Home Secretaries—Charles Clarke (Labour) and Amber Rudd (Conservative)—to reflect on the challenges of leading one of Britain’s most complex and scrutinized departments. Through candid discussion, they offer personal insights into immigration policy, the weight of the Home Secretary’s office, policing, and the unending label of being a "former" Home Secretary. This episode digs behind the headlines to reveal the realities, dilemmas, and unintended consequences that underpin UK Home Office policy and administration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Lasting Identity of a Home Secretary

• Both Rudd and Clarke reflect on how the label "former Home Secretary" sticks with them, even years after leaving office.
  • "Of all the jobs I’ve done of various kinds, it dominates people’s thinking. The Home Office is almost a mythical role..." – Charles Clarke [03:17]
  • Amber Rudd notes she is still regularly introduced by her former title despite the many changes of personnel since her tenure. [03:06]

The Home Office’s Role and Perception

• Clarke argues the Home Secretary embodies society’s desire for order, explaining the enduring public focus.
  • "Everybody who believes in order in society... sees the Home Office role as central to achieving that order." – Charles Clarke [04:04]
• The phrase "great office of state" is often used by the public, though many don’t fully grasp the specifics.
  • "The Home Office is the big one at home, which sometimes feels more relevant than foreign." – Amber Rudd [04:37]

Personal Impact: Security and Responsibility

• Both guests describe the jarring transition to constant security and the immense responsibilities unique to the Home Office versus other departments.
  • "You have full-time protection officers wherever you go. It takes some adjusting." – Amber Rudd [05:15]
  • Clarke shares the gravity of decisions like potentially ordering a fighter jet to shoot down a plane in a terrorist crisis:
    • "That decision has to be taken by an elected politician and the Home Secretary ends up being the person who does it." – Charles Clarke [05:51]
  • Rudd recounts her training on these dire scenarios, joking about party differences:
    • "I find the Lib Dems surprisingly quick on the trigger, ma’am." – Amber Rudd quoting her trainer [06:17]

Immigration: Reality and Reckonings

• EU Expansion and Transitional Controls

  • Clarke reflects on Labour's decision not to implement transitional controls for new EU states, maintaining that the real issue is control rather than numbers.
    • "People’s concern about how you govern immigration. It’s not actually the numbers, I believe; it’s control." – Charles Clarke [08:45]
  • Rudd disagrees about the consequences, arguing the lack of controls contributed to Brexit-related anxiety:
    • "The feedback I got for many years on opposition to staying in the EU was based on that original large number that came over." – Amber Rudd [09:24]
  • Both discuss Labour's underestimation of numbers and missed opportunities in community integration and public spending.
    • "We've had high levels of immigration, overall good for the economy. But the benefit, the extra money, has not gone to the public services that have felt squeezed as a result." – Amber Rudd [11:59]

• Complexity of the Immigration System

  • Clarke describes the labyrinthine, legalistic procedures, and the problem of backlogged asylum cases:
    • "Rooms... full of cases which had not been looked at for five years. A massive system of people just in limbo." – Charles Clarke [14:02]
  • Rudd details responding to humanitarian pressures (e.g., Calais Child Refugee Crisis) and the critical importance of cross-channel cooperation with France.
  • The challenge: legal versus illegal immigration, ensuring legitimacy, and responding to both humanitarian and community concerns. [16:18]
    • "If you're going to have any sort of conviction as a Home Secretary, you have to hold the borders secure." – Amber Rudd [17:17]

• Cross-Departmental & International Dynamics

  • Clarke and Rudd highlight tension within government: economic needs (NHS, agriculture, etc.) vs. public concern about numbers/“control.”
    • "You have to say, we want a growing economy in this field. What is the trade-off between getting migrants in..." – Charles Clarke [19:25]
  • Rudd observes the unpredictability of migration outcomes, especially with family members and skilled-worker visas. [21:04]
  • Both stress that UK migration policy cannot function in isolation from European and international agreements and relationships.
    • "You can only govern immigration in alliance with your neighbouring countries... You have to work with the others." – Charles Clarke [17:23]

The Home Office as “Emergency Service”

• Clarke recounts advice from the permanent secretary and Tony Blair that the Home Office is “the most difficult department in government” because crises are frequent and unpredictable.
  • "You can't operate on that basis. We've got to say we can predict all of these things happening..." – Charles Clarke [22:18]
• Rudd describes the "under siege" feeling during the 2017 terror attacks. [23:18]

Policing: Powers and Limitations

• Rudd emphasizes the principle that Home Secretaries cannot interfere operationally with police actions.
  • "You don’t have control because the whole principle is that a politician should not have any operational control." – Amber Rudd [23:59]
  • Instead, the Home Secretary’s influence is exerted through agenda-setting, funding, and support.
• Clarke criticizes the move to Police and Crime Commissioners as undermining operational independence, welcoming current moves to reverse this.
  • "I think the key principle is the operational independence of the police. I think that was massively badly damaged by the establishment of Police and Crime Commissioners..." – Charles Clarke [25:27]

Accountability, “Not Fit For Purpose”, and Departmental Culture

• The cliché that the Home Office is “not fit for purpose” is rejected by both:
  • "I think it has no value to say... a generic, dismissive phrase ‘not fit for purpose’ I think teaches you nothing." – Charles Clarke [30:26]
  • "Some of the people I worked with in the Home Office were some of the best I have ever worked with." – Amber Rudd [30:58]
• Both call for greater honesty from politicians about what’s possible—and impossible—in immigration and Home Office work.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Home Office label
  • "The Home Office is almost a mythical role in terms of the development of the British society and the British state. Misunderstood, actually." – Charles Clarke [03:17]
• On rapid, high-stake decisions
  • "That decision has to be taken, and our democracy insists... that decision has to be taken by an elected politician." – Charles Clarke [05:51]
  • "I find the Lib Dems surprisingly quick on the trigger, ma’am." – Amber Rudd recounting an anecdote from counterterror training [06:17]
• On the emotional burden of the office
  • "You do constantly, I find, look at what’s going on in certain areas that you covered." – Amber Rudd [06:57]
• On policy complexity and political reality
  • "People aren’t very easy to put into a spreadsheet and behave as you would like them to do." – Amber Rudd [20:56]
• On immigration system as viewed from the top
  • "You’d go mad if you were having to then analyze every permutation…" – Adam Fleming [21:16]
  • "In an ideal world, like many things in government, you would say, let’s tear it all up and start again and have the policy... but it is a very complicated system." – Amber Rudd [16:23]
• On Home Office staff
  • "Some of the people I worked with in the Home Office were some of the best I have ever worked with." – Amber Rudd [31:02]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• The identity and gravitas of Home Secretary—[02:44–05:06]
• Security and impossible decisions (counter-terror)—[05:15–06:41]
• How ex-Home Secretaries carry the experience—[06:47–07:06]
• Immigration: EU accession & public anxiety—[07:14–11:45]
• Community and public service strain—[11:45–12:21]
• Inside the complexity of the immigration system—[12:21–16:23]
• International cooperation & setting migration policy—[17:23–18:56]
• Governmental tension and migration economics—[18:56–20:38]
• Home Office as crisis management—[22:14–23:18]
• Policing: operational independence and role limits—[23:35–26:31]
• Reflections on “not fit for purpose” critique—[30:26–31:30]

Conclusion

This episode provides a rare window into the realities of being Home Secretary: the responsibility of maintaining public order, the ongoing struggle to balance immigration policy with economic needs and public anxieties, the impossibility of “controlling” everything, and the hard limits of power in areas like policing. Both Rudd and Clarke push back firmly against simplistic, critical narratives of Home Office failure; instead, they call for realistic, transparent conversations about what government can—and cannot—do.

Next episode teaser:
Dominic Casciani, the BBC’s Home Affairs Correspondent, will delve deeper into how the Home Office works (or doesn’t), and the recurring challenges facing the department.

[34:23] Charles Clarke: "Bye."