Robert Jenrick (2:08)

Blimey.

Laura Kuenssberg (2:10)

Robert Jenrick. We will talk about how you came to this huge decision and what might be next for you. But first, I just wonder when you looked in the mirror this morning after decades in the Tory party and yesterday you were pushed out, before you jumped, you were sacked. Do you think it went well?

Robert Jenrick (2:26)

Well, it was a hell Of a day. It was a huge day and in many respects, a difficult one for me because I've been a member of this political party, the Conservative Party, since I was 16 years of age, so many friends and good colleagues within it. But I'd resolved to do this. It had been a decision I'd come to gradually over a long period of time. And today I'm absolutely convinced it's the right thing to do. And actually, I think it's a very exciting opportunity to be here, part of a movement that genuinely wants to fix this country, to turn it around, to put it on a brighter path for the future. And if I can play any part in that, then that is the best thing that I could do with the years ahead.

Laura Kuenssberg (3:13)

And we'll come to your reasons for your decision, first of all. But Nigel Farage said publicly you'd been 60, 40, about coming to join Reform UK to be clear, you were sacked by Kami Badenoch before you'd made your final decision. Were you?

Robert Jenrick (3:27)

No, I had resolved to leave the Conservative Party and to join Reform. I'd had discussions with Nigel for a period of time, and, you know, I guess these things are never done until the moment that someone ultimately walks out onto the stage. I understand how politics works, but for me, I had resolved to do this. I was convinced it was the right decision, and it was something that, with Nigel, I would have done very soon.

Laura Kuenssberg (3:57)

But when had you made that decision then? Because your colleagues in your former party, now, they're furious because just a couple of days ago, you were sitting in shadow cabinet with them, having what they thought were normal discussions about the party. Last week, you were at a shadow cabinet away day where you were all sitting talking about the future of the country, what the party's approach should be. So before we get into the why, when had you decided?

Robert Jenrick (4:20)

Over a period of time, I had come to a conclusion over, well, years, frankly, going right back to when I resigned from Rishi Sunak's cabinet over his failed Rwanda policy, that the Conservative Party was letting the country down. The country was in a mess, that the people that I represent in Newark were finding life very tough, and the Conservative Party wasn't providing the answers to that. I stood for the leadership of the Conservative Party because I wanted to turn it around. I perhaps naively believed that the Conservative Party could be honest with itself about what it had got wrong, repent for those mistakes, change fundamentally. And more than anybody else, I would argue in the Conservative Party, I tried to do that. That was the argument that I made. Privately and publicly, consistently over that period of time.

Laura Kuenssberg (5:13)

But it's important.

Robert Jenrick (5:13)

But I did come to, if I may finish this point, Laura, I came to the conclusion over the course of the last year or so that that was not going to happen, that the party hadn't changed, that the people who'd made those mistakes were still sat around the Shadow Cabinet table, the arsonists were still in control of the party, and that this was not a party that was capable of even understanding what it had got wrong, let alone fixing it. And getting into a position where it.

Laura Kuenssberg (5:42)

When you made the final decision is an important one, because it's about whether people can trust you. Now you say you've been thinking about it for a year, so when did.

Robert Jenrick (5:50)

You make a final decision?

Laura Kuenssberg (5:51)

When did you make the final decision?

Robert Jenrick (5:54)

I resolved to do this over the Christmas period. And then the final straw for me was when I went to a Shadow Cabinet away day a week or so ago and there was a discussion around the table about whether Britain is broken. And a PowerPoint slide was put up on the screen saying that the party line is that Britain is not broken. And I said, not in anger, asking the question, why are we saying that? Because I believe Britain is broken. I think that's what most of my constituents would say when they're waiting for A and E appointments, when the potholes on the roads are as bad as that, when they see immigration is out of control, above all, when they see their living standards are stagnating, the bills are going up, wages aren't rising, life is tough for the people. I represent Nottinghamshire, as I think for most people in this country, and in that discussion, there were a couple of people who basically agreed with me, many people did not, and basically implied or made the argument that, no, it's not like that, Britain's alright, maybe we can do a few technocratic fixes and we'll get through this, we'll muddle through as we always have. And there was a third group of people who. Who said, you're right, Rob, Britain is broken. But we can't say it because it was the Conservative Party that broke it. Now, if you ask me who is being honest in this situation, I would say I am the one who is being honest with myself and with the country about what is actually happening here.

Laura Kuenssberg (7:32)

And who was in that group, was the party leader in that group believing Britain was broken but scared to see it.

Robert Jenrick (7:37)

Well, I'm not going to get into who said what, but it was the.

Laura Kuenssberg (7:41)

Part, did a lot of that yesterday.

Robert Jenrick (7:43)

But it was the law. It was the party's policy. It was the party's policy to say that Britain is not broken. The Conservative Party does not believe that this country is in a mess. And why? Well, I would argue two things. One, some people, not everyone, because there are many good people in the Conservative Party, don't get me wrong. But some people are just completely out of touch with what is really happening, don't sense the urgency right now, that the country is in peril, that we're at a moment of unique challenge where everything is going in the wrong direction, where if we don't get this right, the country could be set for decades of decline. And then there are other people who maybe do sense the seriousness of the situation, but are not willing to confront the Conservative Party's role in. In getting to this point. They think that they want to defend their records in office. They want to pretend the Conservative Party had nothing to do with this. That's not going to wash with the British public. The trust is gone, and rightly so with the Conservative Party.

Laura Kuenssberg (8:45)

But a lot of people's trust is gone in politicians because they feel politicians have misled them. And today, as we speak, there are an awful lot of people who feel you misled them.

Robert Jenrick (8:55)

No. You committed.

Laura Kuenssberg (8:56)

No.

Robert Jenrick (8:56)

Laura. Laura, I have been honest with the British public, and that's what matters to me. If you're asking me the question, what do I put first, a political party or the country? 100%. I would say the country.

Laura Kuenssberg (9:09)

But you have.

Robert Jenrick (9:09)

And, Laura, you've seen that in the past. Because I remember you interviewing me a couple of days after I resigned from Rishi Sunak's cabinet, the only Conservative minister to resign on a matter of principle in the last Parliament. And I learned from that, that you're in politics for a purpose. You're in politics to change the country for the better, to speak the truth, sometimes to say uncomfortable things to your own party, and always to put the country first. And that is what I've done.

Laura Kuenssberg (9:38)

And you have a reputation for plain speaking. You've done that over months. That's one of the reasons why you riled some of your colleagues for your plain speaking. And that's one of the reasons why there's been tension between you and Kemi Badenot for a long time.

Robert Jenrick (9:49)

But, Laura, if I come back, let me answer the point you just made there.

Laura Kuenssberg (9:52)

Let me ask.

Robert Jenrick (9:53)

You say riled colleagues. Let's just think what that actually means. Let me give you an example. Over the Christmas holidays, I woke up one morning, like most people in this country did, to learn that this extremist, dangerous extremist, El Fatah was being brought into the country and the Prime Minister was celebrating it. I looked through his social media account, like many people did, and was frankly appalled by everything that he'd said, the anti Semitism, the prejudice, the violence, the attacks on the police that he was calling for. And I then did everything I could in my way to try to stop him coming into the country, to say this man should be deported, to protect the British public because he's anti British and everything that I think our country stands for. Imagine my surprise then when I learned that some Conservative MPs, including very senior people in the party, thought that I was to blame for raising the case. Why? Because it drew attention to the fact that the Conservative Party granted this despicable man, frankly, citizenship when we were in office. I think that tells you everything that you need to know about the situation. Now, the Conservative parties hold below the waterline because its own record is something it cannot escape from. It's a prisoner of its past. And the leadership of the party will not repent for the mistakes that we've made. I think in those circumstances, why would you trust these people to fix the country after the next general election? I can't make that argument to my constituents.

Laura Kuenssberg (11:26)

Why would your constituents, though, trust you? We know you've been thinking about this for months. We know that you've been talking to Reform since September about defecting. And many people this morning, including some of your former colleagues, say that you lied to them. You have repeatedly asked on many occasions.

Robert Jenrick (11:45)

Let me say this, no one could have been more fresh about what I believed in.

Laura Kuenssberg (11:49)

On many occasions in the last few months, whether or not you were thinking about going to Reform and you said no, your Conservative constituents who voted for you thought that you were representing them as a Tory mp. And you've admitted now, for reasons that you've explained, that all along, for several months you were thinking about jumping ship and yesterday you jumped ship because you were caught mid plot. So how now can you stop?

Robert Jenrick (12:13)

It's not like Lewis trust you. Let me put it in these terms, because I think that your viewers will all have had situations in their own lives, whether it's a relationship, a job, where they have agonized for a long time about whether this is the right thing for them and for the people that they work with or they love, and they've tried to make it work. They've done everything they can. They've continued to do the job or to be the Good partner for as long as they possibly could do. But ultimately they came to the conclusion that this wasn't right, that this was dishonest to themselves and not the right thing, whether it's for the company, the relationship, the family, or indeed, in this case, the country to persist. And that's exactly what happened here. Yes, I agonize over this. Of course, you'd expect that. This isn't a simple decision. No one does this lightly. That's why so few of these situations arise, because it's very tough to do this, to walk away from the party that you've been a part of and the many people that I respect and admire in the party, my own members and councillors in Newark, who I have nothing but the greatest respect and friendship for. But if you're saying who has been frank in this situation, well, I don't think I could have been franker. I have spoken publicly and privately for a very long time now about my concerns about the Conservative Party the day after the general election. In fact, I think I came on your show the Sunday after the general election and I said that the Conservative Party failed the country. And I prosecuted that argument over and over again ever since, trying begging the Conservative Party to change course. But I had to come to the conclusion that that was never going to happen. And I would argue that the people who are being at times dishonest, whether to themselves or to the public, are those people within the Conservative Party who are saying, we've changed, we're going to be different, you can trust us next time when they can't even confront the mistakes that they made, let alone fix the country.

Laura Kuenssberg (14:15)

Just on a brief point, but an important one. Your local constituency association, as was your Tory friends in your town of Newark. Some of them think you should have a by election on. Will you have a by election?

Robert Jenrick (14:27)

I'm not going to do a by election. I don't think that that serves any particular purpose.

Laura Kuenssberg (14:32)

Well, it gives people a chance to vote for someone else.

Robert Jenrick (14:34)

Who, of course, what I will do is to continue to serve my constituency the absolute best of my ability, holding the Labour Party to account, working hard on the ground on local campaigns and projects, as I've always done. And I would just say this, Laura. At the last general election, virtually every poll, all those MRP polls and so on, predicted that I was going to lose my seat. And in fact, the Conservative Party lost all the seats in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, all of them bar mine. I would argue the reason that I held my seat was because my constituents knew that I was slightly different from other MPs. I'd resigned on a point of principle. I was independent minded and there were many, many people on the doorstep who said to me, rob, I'm voting for you, not the party. Indeed, there were a lot of reform voters who said, I'm going to vote for you rather than reform, because I know you share our values.

Laura Kuenssberg (15:27)

So you've talked about how you came to this conclusion, but I think people now will wonder what you stand for and how you can work with Nigel Farage, where not so long ago you said, I don't think Nigel is the bloke you want running your kids school or running your local hospital. He's not a serious politician.

Robert Jenrick (15:44)

Look, I've said stuff in politics. Nigel has said things about me.

Laura Kuenssberg (15:48)

He called you a broad and a Hippocratic.

Robert Jenrick (15:49)

That is the rough and tumble of politics. I've probably been more complimentary about Nigel than frankly, almost anyone in the Conservative Party. I've said that I respect his longevity. I respect the fact that he's spoken for millions. I said I respected the fact he spoke to millions of people in the country. What I think Nigel differentiates, or how he differentiates himself from other politicians and leaders that I've known in the time I've been involved in politics, is his consistency on some of the most important issues facing the country today, like illegal migration, like energy bills for households and businesses related to net zero. How you get some growth going again in the economy by cutting taxes and deregulating where you can. He's been a very consistent voice and many times the Conservative Party, but not just the Conservative Party, the whole political media establishment has tried to say that he was a lone voice, he was an outlier. He was wrong on those issues. Remember when he was out in the English Channel when the small boats first started, people were almost laughing at him. Well, they're not laughing now. And I admire that. And the prime ministers that I've worked alongside, many, frankly, all of them in different ways, have been disappointments.

Laura Kuenssberg (17:09)

But he has changed on some other things.

Robert Jenrick (17:11)

They haven't been consistent. And that is what you want from a Prime minister?

Laura Kuenssberg (17:14)

Well, he's not be consistent on the lifting the benefit cap for families with large numbers of children. I mean, do you now agree with Nigel Farage's position? Position that big families, if they are British families, to quote the reform policy, should be able to.

Robert Jenrick (17:30)

I think Nigel's position has actually been pretty clear.

Laura Kuenssberg (17:33)

But do you agree with him now?

Robert Jenrick (17:34)

He believes you didn't used to. He believes that we should have pro family policies and that actually both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party in government have consistently failed to bring forward pro family policies.

Laura Kuenssberg (17:48)

But do you agree families with ordinary.

Robert Jenrick (17:50)

Should be able to get benefits, a bit of extra cash? Look, I think that that's a question that the party's got to think through, but it's not one.

Laura Kuenssberg (17:58)

So you don't agree?

Robert Jenrick (17:59)

No, no. I think that it's a very reasonable position that Nigel has said that British workers, people who are British and who are in work, should be able to get a bit of extra cash for the kids that they have. But. And this is a big contrast with the position of the Labour government that if you're somebody who's not a British citizen or is not in work, then you shouldn't be doing that. Because what we stand for ultimately is alarm clock Britain. Those are the people I represent in the town I represent. There are people getting up at 7 o' clock in the morning. They're going to work, they're making responsible decisions about whether they can afford to have extra kids, how they're going to live their lives, and we should be protecting and preserving them and ensuring that they can have the lowest possible taxes, the best public services and not privileging others.

Laura Kuenssberg (18:45)

Your view that the reform policy where families should get extra benefits if they have more than two kids, is that.

Robert Jenrick (18:53)

I think it's a perfectly reasonable position. It's a world away from what the Labour Party's position is. But what I would say is this, and this is what Nigel feels strongly about, and I do as well. And this is what I mean when I say more thought is going to be given. We've got a situation now where millions of our fellow citizens are of working age but are economically inactive. That can't persist. We cannot see the benefits bill just keep soaring year after year after year. It's morally wrong. It's unfair on those people who are working hard. And reform will always be a party on the side of those people who are going out to work, doing the right thing. The state should be on their side, not on the side of people who are scrounging or living on benefits. And we've got to ensure that we get the benefits bill down. And that's something that Nigel and the other MPs and figures in reform are going to work very hard on in the months and years ahead.

Laura Kuenssberg (19:51)

Do you agree with Nigel Farage that the NHS should maybe move to being an insurance model?

Robert Jenrick (19:56)

I don't think that Nigel has said that in any time he has said. It's worth looking at what he has said, and this is where he and I completely agree, is that the NHS has been treated almost as a religion rather than as a public service that needs to be reformed. What matters to my constituents is how do we ensure that it delivers the best possible public services on the ground. You know, my dad had a stroke not so long ago. 85 year old man, he waited 12 hours twice in AE. A man who's worked hard, paid his taxes, done all the right things in his life. My mum and dad were sat in AE for 12 hours waiting to be seen. That is a story that many, perhaps most people might know their own anecdotes across the country today. That's wrong. So the NHS is not working as well as it needs to do. And I want to see proper reform of the nhs, as with all public services, so it actually delivers for people in this country. And I would just say on that point, reform is going to use the months and years ahead wisely to come forward with serious, credible plans to fix this country. I don't believe the Labour government is going to fix this country. We can see that already. That's why it's so deeply unpopular. I don't believe the Conservative Party is either. Both because it's encumbered by its past, but also I don't see evidence of that either. I mean, what's happened to these policy.

Laura Kuenssberg (21:21)

Commissions when it comes to that past.

Robert Jenrick (21:22)

You name it, reform is going to use this time to put forward the most comprehensive plan to fix the country. And we want people to join us in that endeavour. Nurses, doctors, business people, soldiers, people with real experience to make this movement for change something truly special.

Laura Kuenssberg (21:39)

You've explained very clearly that you feel your former Conservative colleagues don't get it and that the public will not forgive them because they broke Britain. The problem is you. You are absolutely at the heart of that. So if you can't forgive them, how can anyone forgive you?

Robert Jenrick (21:55)

Well, I would hope that people would see firstly, in the jobs that I did in government, I always tried to challenge the system. When I was Housing Secretary, Immigration Minister. Let me come to when I was Housing Secretary, I felt passionately we should get young people onto the housing ladder. What did I do? I got housing starts into this country to the highest level in my lifetime, way, way, way above what you see today under Steve Reed or Angela Rayner. The best stats that we've known since the early 1980s. As immigration minister, this is one of the most radicalizing moments of my adult life and you can't walk because the.

Laura Kuenssberg (22:30)

Policy was a disaster, in your view.

Robert Jenrick (22:33)

I walked into the Home Office and it was a total bin fire. I thought, we as a government are letting down the British people in the most profound way. I worked like crazy to try and fix that, actually, with some success. We got small boats arrivals down by a third. No other minister before or since has done that. They've skyrocketed on every other minister's watch. And I persuaded, by hook or by crook, Rishi Sunak, to implement changes to our legal migration system, which we are now seeing having an absolutely profound effect. Legal migration is full. We may even get to net zero immigration because of those changes. And this is the point, Laura. They may finish it. When I couldn't persuade the government to do more, I resigned. I went onto the backbenches and I started to campaign there. And I tell you what, when I voted against the Rwanda policy, which was not going to work, guess how many people joined me in the division lobbies? 11 out of the 300 or so Conservative MPs. How many of those people are still in the Conservative Party today? 2.

Laura Kuenssberg (23:34)

2.

Robert Jenrick (23:36)

And the Prime Minister at the time, even, we're told, considered taking the whip away from me because he didn't believe that we should leave the echr. So I haven't been perfect. I've made mistakes like anyone has, and I'm the first to admit that. But I have always tried to be honest with the British public about the challenges and to rise to them. And I want to ensure that reform gets into government and is a bold, radical, reforming government, actually fix the country because it is such a difficult pot at the moment.

Laura Kuenssberg (24:07)

How many of your Conservative colleagues do you think will follow you and have you spoken to any of them about it?

Robert Jenrick (24:11)

I have no idea and I haven't spoken to colleagues or asked them to do so. I've got friends, many friends in the Conservative Party are good people in the Conservative Party. But the point is that the majority of MPs in Westminster don't believe in the things that I believe in.

Laura Kuenssberg (24:27)

But do you expect many of them?

Robert Jenrick (24:28)

I don't think that they're able to make the change the country needs. I don't know, have to see that's ultimately a decision for them. It's deeply personal. And then it would be a decision for Nigel and reform as to whether they were able to be accepted in. What I do want to see is reform attract people from across the political perspective and people who've had nothing to do with politics because reform is Essentially our country's last shot. If we don't fix this at the next general election, I feel our country is probably going to slip away. We're going to.

Laura Kuenssberg (25:00)

What do you mean by that?

Robert Jenrick (25:02)

If I look back on my adult lifetime, I see two or three lost decades going right the way back to Tony Blair and the false dawn of that era where we've had stagnating living standards, our town centres are in decline, our prisons are bursting, our public services are poor, taxes are, are at record highs, young people are fleeing the country, the rich are going overseas. There's no buzz and excitement, there's a listlessness, there's a sense of defeatism in the country at the moment. And the people I grew up with in Wolverhampton and the people I represent in Newark, their lives are tough. Anyone who tells you otherwise, they don't walk those streets, they're not in those pubs and cafes, they're not talking to real people. And if we allow this to continue for another 10 or 20 years, for our country to slip into further decline, then I just am so worried about what this country will be like for the people I represent, the people I knew when I was growing up in the Midlands, even for my own children. And look, I'm lucky in life, but I want my children to grow up in a great country. I do believe we can turn this around. We can have catch up growth, we can fix our borders, we can make our streets safe. But it is not going to happen by having the very people who broke the country, the two failed political parties of Labour and Conservative, handed the keys again and say, you know what guys, all is forgiven, keep going. No one surely can argue. That's right. You need something new and exciting and led by somebody who hasn't been part of that failed consensus. We are somebody who has been consistent and strong on the issues that matter. And that is Nigel Farage.

Laura Kuenssberg (26:46)

We are almost out of time, but there's a few things. Briefly, if I may just ask you, do you believe there was a mole in your own team that leaked your plan and your speech?

Robert Jenrick (26:53)

Well, I'm told that there was a junior person who did that, but I don't know all the details and frankly that isn't really important to me. I'd resolved to do this beforehand. This is a minor footnote. What I'm trying to do here is to lend my, you know, everything that I have put my heart into, something which I believe is absolutely critical to the future of this country. And whether it's announced on one day or another, day this way or that way. I really don't.

Laura Kuenssberg (27:19)

It doesn't say much for that. Has Nigel Farage promised you a job?

Robert Jenrick (27:23)

No.

Laura Kuenssberg (27:23)

What job would you like?

Robert Jenrick (27:25)

Look, I'm the 270something thousandth member of reform and I'm just here to help him to succeed. Because at the end of the day, and this is the crucial question that I asked myself when you've been saying what thoughts went through my head at the next general election? What do I want to see happen for this country? Well, I want to get rid of this failing Labour government, Starmer, or whichever non entity replaces him. I want a proper, serious, credible, reforming government to come forward and fix our country and some. And that is only going to be reform. So I had to answer the question. If it's a choice, Starmer or Nigel, if it's a choice between decline or a renaissance, a renewal of our country, on which side of that do I want to be and how do I want to use my energy over the course of the next few years and if I can play a small part in ensuring the right result that we get? Nigel Farage, reform government, we fix our country, then the personal pain and difficulties of the last few days will be massively outweighed and it'll be the most important thing I ever do in my life.

Laura Kuenssberg (28:34)

You used to say if people voted reform, it guarantees a Labour government. All you do is fight on the right, split the vote. You end up with Labour still in power and many people are fed up.

Robert Jenrick (28:46)

By the right politics. This is uniting the right. This is uniting the right.

Laura Kuenssberg (28:52)

Conservative Party.

Robert Jenrick (28:53)

This is uniting the right. My message to millions of people in the country who stuck with the Conservative Party, often through gritted teeth because like me, they were deeply frustrated, angry even at what happened. They voted once again in 2024. Many of those have now come to reform over the course of the last year or so. But there's still people who are sticking with the party. If you want to get rid of this Labour government and have a strong reforming government to fix the country, there's frankly only one way to do that. There's only one way to do that, that is to vote for Nigel, to rally behind him and reform. If you don't, you'll have Starmer or God forbid, Starmer, in coalition with Zach Polanski and Ed Davy or whatever madness might follow and our country will go down a very dark path, decline. And I just cannot allow that to happen. It pains me to see Britain in decline. I'm not going to allow that to happen. That's why I have chosen, and I think millions of other people will do in the years ahead, to put longstanding party allegiance to one side. In my case, to put personal ambition to one side and to put the country first.

Laura Kuenssberg (30:01)

Other people would say you've done the very reverse of putting personal ambition aside, you've done the opposite. You've joined the party that is ahead in the polls precisely because of your own personal ambitions.

Robert Jenrick (30:10)

I don't think anyone could seriously make that argument. I woke up yesterday as the grassroots poll on the Conservative home website. For those of your viewers who know that their favorite the bookies favorite to be leader of the Conservative Party. I chose to say no to all of that, to join and be one of a team of people working under a very strong leader in Nigel Farage. You don't do that if you're motivated by personal ambition. What is my ambition for the country? Yes, I do want to be part of a team that is going to fix this country. I am excited to be part of that team. I'm determined to make it a success because I love this country. I'm proud to represent the people I do in Newark. I don't want to see their lives as challenging as they are today. And I want to play my part in making sure we turn the country around.

Laura Kuenssberg (30:57)

And I can't help but asking if you've been watching Traitors.

Robert Jenrick (31:01)

Been a bit busy recently, but I did watch the celebrity in the Turns.

Laura Kuenssberg (31:04)

Out people might think you were a traitor, not a faithful after all.

Robert Jenrick (31:07)

I think people in time will look back on this moment and say this was a time when the right united, when people put aside party loyalties and came together to fix our country. And if that happens, then in my small way, I will have done a good service.

Laura Kuenssberg (31:26)

Robert Jenrick, Reform UK MP thank you very much.

Robert Jenrick (31:29)

Thank you very much, Laura.

BBC Newscast Host (31:38)

And that was Laura speaking to Robert Jenrick on Friday lunchtime. If you would like to hear analysis from Laura and others that will be coming your way in the next episode of Newscast, which will be hitting your feeds very soon. Bye bye.

Laura Kuenssberg (31:51)

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

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