The Robert Jenrick Interview: What's Reform's Economic Plan?

Summary

---

Newscast: The Robert Jenrick Interview – What's Reform's Economic Plan?

Podcast: Newscast (BBC News)
Date: February 18, 2026
Host: BBC Newscast Host
Guest: Robert Jenrick (Shadow Chancellor, Reform UK)

---

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Robert Jenrick, recently appointed as the "shadow Chancellor" for Reform UK following his high-profile defection from the Conservatives. The discussion explores Reform's economic vision, focusing on fiscal responsibility, welfare reform, industrial strategy, and the evolution of party policy under new leadership. The tone is lively yet serious, balancing policy deep-dives with insights into internal party dynamics.

---

Key Topics and Insights

1. Arrival at Reform UK: Energy and New Dynamics

• Jenrick recounts the atmosphere at Reform events, highlighting the large, diverse crowds and sense of momentum.
  • “2000 people turned up in 48 hours. And I don’t believe… I don’t think Conservatives could have put on an event like that.” (03:37)
• Differences between Reform and Conservative rallies, with more working people and "tradesmen" attending Reform events, leading to novel anecdotes (e.g., reclaiming pen knives at rallies).
  • “It meant that basically 40 men and women who'd been out, you know, doing a day's work as a bricky, plumber, electrician… just decided to register, come and watch a political event.” (05:06)

2. Fiscal Responsibility and Bond Market Credibility

• Jenrick stresses the importance of economic stability and fiscal prudence, positioning Reform as a responsible alternative.
  • “Who suffers when there's a loss of credibility in the government… working people, pensioners, people on lower incomes.” (06:05)
• Clear distancing from unfunded promises, learning from the Truss government’s mistakes.
  • “We’re not going to play fast and loose with this. We saw what happened with Liz Truss — complete disaster. And it was normal people... who suffered.” (07:05)

3. Tax and Spending: No Rash Promises

• Tax cuts are an ambition, but only after credible, sustainable savings are identified.
  • “I’m not going to say we’re going to cut taxes until I found savings which we can prove are serious and sustainable.” (07:59)
• Emphasis on targeting inflation, energy prices, and building to improve living standards before committing to tax relief.

4. Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR): Reform, Not Abolition

• Jenrick explains a change in Reform UK's stance: retaining the OBR but reforming it for greater accuracy and transparency.
  • “We will keep the OBR, but we are going to reform it. We're going to ensure that we bring in more people from the outside, from the private sector… create more competition…” (10:37)
• Acknowledges past mistakes by the OBR but underlines the need for independent fiscal oversight.

5. Welfare Reform: From Caps to Scrutiny of Eligibility

• Jenrick confirms a shift to reimpose the two-child benefit cap, citing the need for fiscal discipline.
  • “The problem is we just haven’t got any money right now. The public finances are in a real mess… If there was a reform government… we would reinstate the cap.” (13:17)
• Welfare system overhaul: focus on targeting benefits to the most vulnerable while eliminating what he describes as excesses or “unfairness.”
  • “Is it right that [someone with] mild anxiety… therefore gets benefits? Most people… would be very skeptical.” (19:13)
  • Requirement for in-person clinical assessments for disability benefits, reduction in coverage for "minor" conditions.

6. Party Policy Evolution and Internal Debate

• The host probes Jenrick on major Reform policy reversals (e.g., OBR, child benefit cap) and why he joined a party where he had to persuade the leadership to change its stance.
  • Jenrick credits Reform's historic positions on immigration and opposition to "net zero” for drawing him in, while conceding the need for credibility on economic policy.
  • “Are there some other things that we can improve to increase people's confidence in the party, particularly on the economy? Yes, and I hope that people can see today that we're doing so.” (16:16)

7. Welfare Savings: Targets and Approach

• Cautions against “back of the envelope” savings figures; aims for rigor in identifying and implementing cuts.
  • “We're not just going to do stuff on the back of an envelope… we'll show our workings… only once we've done that will we say how we'll spend that money.” (22:01)
• Claims £25bn in identified cuts, to come from restricting benefits to non-citizens, raising the immigration health surcharge, and other measures.
  • “Those are savings that Zia Yousef and Richard Tice developed last year… I’ve gone through those numbers, I’m confident that they are accurate…” (23:02)

8. Industrial Policy: Reindustrialization and Energy

• Jenrick calls for reindustrialization through lower energy prices, opposing “net zero” as deindustrializing.
  • “I saw for myself… the impact that the loss of industry… had… There was a loss of identity and pride that came with it… We're a country that makes so little…” (25:04)
• Warns businesses of impending policy shifts, urging them to adapt now for a possible Reform-led government.
  • “My advice to businesses would be you should be looking to change your business model now…” (32:12)

9. Contracts and Rule of Law Concerns

• When challenged on renewable energy contracts, Jenrick signals willingness to override existing agreements to achieve new policy goals.
  • BBC Host: “You might rip them up.” (33:41)
  • Jenrick: “Yeah… if I am putting, as Richard Tice has done as well, some of those investors on notice that we may not be able to stand behind those contracts.” (33:42)

10. Political Positioning and Familiarity of Rhetoric

• Discussions about the similarities between Jenrick’s rhetoric and those of previous Shadow Chancellors (e.g., “alarm clock Britain”).
  • BBC Host: “A lot of the areas Robert Jenrick was straying into… are stuff that Shadow Chancellors from all parties have talked about for decades…” (38:13)
  • Jenrick embraces the focus on “Alarm Clock Britain” — those who get up early, work hard, and feel left behind.
  • “Who am I in politics for? Well, it is for people like my dad. It is for the people who… got up on a cold Winter's morning… and went out to do a hard shift at work. That is what reform exists for.” (37:10)

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Defection and Reform’s Crowd:
  • “I don’t think Conservative could have put on an event like that… I mean, you certainly don’t see that in the city… It’s the country’s last hope.” – Robert Jenrick (04:59, 05:13)
• On Fiscal Responsibility:
  • “We’re not going to make promises we can’t keep. Everything we say is going to be properly costed…” (07:18)
• On Bond Markets:
  • “The bond markets, by and large, are rational people… they force the government to be serious, to take those trade offs, to look after the public finances carefully.” (06:37)
• On Welfare:
  • “We want a safety net… But if you’ve got a mild condition, like say mild anxiety or mild depression, can the country really afford to do that? No.” (19:15)
• On Policy Flexibility:
  • “What we have said today very clearly is that reform isn’t going to make wild pledges. It’s not going to say we can cut taxes before we found the savings…” (18:18)
• On Business and Net Zero:
  • “I’m not prepared for this country’s economic competitiveness to be destroyed by Ed Miliband and his net zero zealotry… if I am putting… investors on notice that we may not be able to stand behind those contracts… they shouldn’t be investing in this.” (34:07)
• Alarm Clock Britain:
  • “Who am I in politics for? Well, it is for people like my dad… who got up… and went out to do a hard shift at work. That is what Reform exists for… We're not going to forget where we came from or who we're in politics for.” (37:10)

---

Key Timestamps for Significant Segments

• [03:37] – Reform’s Event Energy; Crowd Composition
• [06:05] – On Bond Markets and Fiscal Stability
• [09:36] – OBR Policy U-turn & Reform, Not Abolition
• [13:17] – Welfare Policy: Two-Child Cap & Fiscal Constraints
• [19:13] – Welfare Reform: Eligibility and Personal Responsibility
• [23:02] – £25bn Spending Cuts: How and Where
• [25:04] – Industrial Policy & National Identity
• [32:12] – Jenrick’s Message to Businesses: Prepare Now
• [33:41] – Question of Honoring Energy Contracts
• [37:10] – “Alarm Clock Britain” and Reform’s Voter Target

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look at Reform UK’s evolving economic strategy under Robert Jenrick, marked by pledges of prudence, tough welfare reform, and a pro-worker, anti-establishment tone. Jenrick positions himself and Reform as learning from past mistakes, promising rigor over rhetoric. Nevertheless, many of the policy building blocks and rhetorical flourishes echo those of past chancellors, leaving open the question of whether this “new recipe” can genuinely deliver what decades of economic policymaking have not.

---

Transcript

[Robert Jenrick]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Comfort is often the first thing we're willing to give up. But don't let style be the reason you aren't comfy. Mack Weldon's Ace collection makes it effortless to look put together while feeling truly comfortable. Inspired by their best selling sweatpants, the Ace collection combines everyday comfort with long lasting and confident looks. Upgrade your collection for the new year with new bomber jackets, half zips, sweet sweats, crew necks and much more. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with promo code MAC25.

[BBC Newscast Host]

At Vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between and after your trip.

[Robert Jenrick]

Because a great trip starts with peace.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Of mind and maybe a good playlist.

[Robert Jenrick]

But we've got the peace of mind part covered.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Hello, we're recording this episode of newscast on Wednesday 18th February mid afternoon and it's a day where we got a serious look at the next phase of Reform uk. So on Tuesday they unveiled their shadow spokespeople putting the big names in the big jobs. And today one of them, Robert Jenrick, who just describes himself as the shadow Chancellor for Reform uk, was doing a speech in this city. It was very serious, much less razzmatazzi than some other Reform events, much less kind of punchy, because it was designed to send a message of reassurance to businesses and the banks and institutions that lend the British government money that they would be okay if Reform were in government. And he also talked about a whole load of policies Reform are thinking of introducing when it comes to the economy and, and the public finances. So we thought this would be a really good day to drill into what Reform actually want to do when it comes to the economy and running the nation's balance sheet. So that's what we're doing on this episode of Newscast, where we will be joined by Robert Jenrick. Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. Fat Boy Slim and me in the classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Robert Jenrick]

I was the tattletail in the class.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Can I have an apology please?

[Podcast Advertiser]

I trust almost nobody that daddy has.

[BBC Newscast Host]

To sometimes use strong language.

[Robert Jenrick]

Next time in mosque I feel dulu with no salulu Take me down to Downing street let's go have a tour. Blimey.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Hello, Robert Genrick.

[Robert Jenrick]

Hello.

[BBC Newscast Host]

So first of all, just before we talk about economic policy, we were all gripped that day. You did your defection. Yeah. And Nigel Farage says Robert Jenrick is coming to the stage. And then it took you a good couple of minutes to get there. What was actually happening. Clear it up for us.

[Robert Jenrick]

I'd love to be able to tell you that there's some kind of dramatic story, but it's not like sort of.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Like Superman changing outfits.

[Robert Jenrick]

It wasn't like that. No. I was sort of holed up in a. In an office on the floor below. And then the lifts in Millbank Tower took ages to come.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Right.

[Robert Jenrick]

And so I was about two or three minutes slow and they're there. So that was it really. Although it's given Nigel something to dine out on now. Yeah.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Because he now mentions it every time you're introduced to something.

[Robert Jenrick]

Every time I'm introduced or he does one of these rallies around the country, which we're doing virtually every day now. One of his stock jokes is, you know, they're not gonna be late like Robert Jenreck, and so I'm gonna have to be very timely.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Exactly. Yeah. Please be on time all the time. Talking about the events, I was struck on Tuesday when the so called shadow cabinet was unveiled. It was a lot of razzmat. Reform likes razzmatazzi events.

[Robert Jenrick]

They do.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Why is that?

[Robert Jenrick]

Because they're fun. I mean, I think the thing about reform, which is, which is unique is the sense of energy and momentum that there is. And I mean that, you know, you know, genuinely, we. A few days after I arrived, they organized a rally in my constituency in Newark. And I thought, oh, fine, thank you very much. They put out an email to people who were supporters of the party within 30 miles of Newark, which is a small town in a fairly rural area. It's not like it's Central London. Had 2000 people turned up in 48 hours. And I don't believe, I don't believe. Well, I don't think, you know this without. I don't mean to be disparaging, but I don't think conservative could have put on an event like that and no one would have come. You know, we would have been phoning around trying to get 100 people to come. And the other thing which is very striking then at all the events, frankly I've been to, is the mix of people, really good mix.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Is it very different from the crowd you get?

[Robert Jenrick]

It is different. There's a mix of young and old and there's a lot more working people and there's some people who you just never get at a political event, certainly not a conservative one. I'll give you, give you an example. At the event that we did in Newark, at one point, the security sort of chief came in, the security guard, and said, We've collected 40 knives. I was, oh, what is that? That doesn't sound good.

[BBC Newscast Host]

No.

[Robert Jenrick]

But by that he meant pen knives, Stanley knives and so on, which they'd give back to people at Afro.

[BBC Newscast Host]

But wood whittlers love reform.

[Robert Jenrick]

They were tradesmen, Right? There were. It meant that basically 40 men and women who'd been out, you know, doing a day's work as a bricky plumber, electrician, whatever it was, you know, in Doncaster or Lincoln, somewhere nearby, on the way home, had just decided to register, come and watch a political event. And I mean, you certainly don't see that in the city. But I don't think there's any political party that has that sense of energy and the sense that ordinary people are coming together to support it because they think it means something. Although to me it means it's the country's last hope. It's the opportunity to fix the country, which everybody's crying out for.

[BBC Newscast Host]

But that's so interesting because the juxtaposition of that with one of the first things you said in your speech today, which was in the city and was about economic policy. You used the phrase, I respect the bond markets. Just explain how you can be on the side of the plumbers and the tradespeople, but also kind of on the same side as the bond markets, the people who lend the government vast sums of money.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, because who suffers when there's a loss of credibility in the government and the country when there's instability? Yeah, it's rich people, people in the city to some extent, but the people who suffer the most are working people, pensioners, people on lower incomes. And so if reform aspires to be the voice for those people, it's got to provide stability. People have got to know that reform will be careful with their money, that you can trust us with your pensions, your savings, your mortgage, your small business. And that was the message that I was trying to deliver today. And you know, the bond markets, you know, you hear Andy Burnham said, well, we can't be in hoc to the bond markets. Well, the bond markets, by and large, are rational people. They take an assessment of the government of the day. Are they making difficult decisions? Are they taking the trade offs that come with government, particularly in tough times like these? And they force the government to be serious, to take those trade offs, to look after the public finances carefully. And that is why reform says we're not going to play fast and loose with this. We saw what happened with Liz Truss complete disaster. And it was normal people, it was people who were about to buy a home to, who suddenly found that their mortgage deals fell through, who suffered from that in the moment. So we're going to be very careful. We're not going to make promises we can't keep. Everything we say is going to be properly costed and we are going to stand for fiscal responsibility and being responsible custodians of the public finances.

[BBC Newscast Host]

So when those people are coming to your rallies in the huge numbers that you say, and they say, oh, when are you going to cut my taxes? You have to say to them, oh, actually, probably not for a while. Because, well, first of all, reform's got to get elected. Then we've got to get the public finances in shape, pro quite a lot of spending cuts and then maybe a few years after that there could be some tax cuts.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, we're not going to. Well, we're not going to make rash promises. That's the first thing. So I'm not going to say we're going to cut taxes until I found savings which we can prove are serious and sustainable. Once we've done that, once we've got ourselves the headroom, then we'll be able to say we can bring taxes down. But yeah, of course we want to lower taxes. We want to bring people's bills down because we know how tough it is right now. Everybody in the country is feeling hard up at the moment, particularly people on lower incomes. They see their wages are stagnating. They see the energy bills and the bills in the supermarket just going up and up and up. Inflation still remains stubbornly high, higher than it should be. We want to take action to tackle that. Part of that will be hopefully in time bringing down people's taxes. But it will also be having a different energy policy as a country where we get rid of the net zero targets and go for cheap and reliable energy so that we can provide households and businesses with more competitive energy prices. It will be other things as well, like ensuring that we build more in this country so that businesses can build factories and people can get homes and we make things easier for people. Those will be our priorities. But we are going to put working people first. That is the thing that reform is. Reform is a party for working people and it's incredibly important that we bear down on inflation and People's bills and raise wages, and we will talk about.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Loads of those things in a second. But just on the whole fiscal responsibility thing, why is reform now all in favor of the Office of Budget Responsibility when as soon as. As recently as January, Nigel Farage was saying the OBR is not great. They really tie the hands of politicians. It's a bit anti democratic.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, look, I talked this over with Nigel and we both agreed that for its flaws, and believe me, there have been flaws and mistakes, I've come on to that. It does serve a purpose. It was set up originally to instill fiscal rectitude into the government of the day and its successors. And we should embrace that because I don't want to see the public finances deteriorate even further than they are today. I mean, Britain basically is on the brink of bankruptcy at the moment. If we don't take action to bear down on welfare, wasteful public spending, we're going to be in a real mess in the years ahead. Has the OBR made mistakes? Yes, absolutely. You know, the Times did a survey recently in which it ranked it second to bottom of all of the forecasters in the City.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Yeah, because sometimes it's too optimistic about economic growth.

[Robert Jenrick]

No, look, sometimes it's too optimistic, sometimes it's too pessimistic. It's actually rarely. Rarely. Right, and so we've got to make.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Sure you would broadly keep it as it is, the basis of this speech today.

[Robert Jenrick]

What we're going to say is we will keep the obr, but we are going to reform it. How are we going to do that? Well, we're going to ensure that we bring in more people from the outside, from the private sector, not just recruiting from think tanks or the treasury, but people who've got more experience of the real economy, create more competition to ensure that its models are actually accurate, because they haven't been in the past. And we've got ideas on how you can do that using, you know, superforecasters and others who. Who may be better placed, pay people better if necessary to get people in, because this is really important that the Treasury's numbers are accurate. And there will be other reforms that we can do in the future, like ensuring the budget process works better. Because we all saw what a mess Rachel Rees last budget process was, where she basically spent six months, a whole summer and autumn, floating in the papers, one tax rise or another, on business and working people. The forecast seemed to be changing, although it sounds like she misrepresented some of those in the press conferences. And speeches that she did. But nonetheless, the process didn't work well. It didn't provide the stability that we believe is necessary. So we are going to reform it, but we're going to keep it because we believe in fiscal responsibility.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Also, you just made another reform pledge there. No more kite flying in government by people testing out ideas in the papers and in the wider world before they actually commit to them. So that'll be intriguing to see if you stick to that, well, implicit pledge.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, you know, it's a fair cop, because every chance, like there were political.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Discussions going on all over the side.

[Robert Jenrick]

Every Chancellor does this and you obviously also have to test public opinion, talk to people in business communities, so you.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Will feel like that's, that's, that's fine.

[Robert Jenrick]

But I think the way it was done by Rachel Reeves on both of her two budgets actually were the worst I've ever known. You know, the result of that was a massive loss of confidence from international investors and the bond markets, meaning that the cost of borrowing was higher than it should have been. The so called idiot premium that the UK is currently subjected to, but also just from normal people, it meant that, you know, you might not think about buying your house or a tradesman, a new van or a business hiring some more people. A farmer spent the whole of last year worried about their tax arrangements if they wanted to hand their farm onto their kids or their grandkids. And that's not right. The country now deserves a period of stability and that's what I want a reform government to provide.

[BBC Newscast Host]

You talked about the conversation you had with Nigel Farage where you presumably convinced him that the OBR should stay in some form. Was it a similar conversation about the 2 child benefit cap? Because he was all in favor of lifting it for, as he would describe it, British families. You now say you would reintroduce the 2 child benefit cap. What was that conversation like?

[Robert Jenrick]

Yeah, Nigel and I talked about it at length and look, the. Well, weeks, no, not weeks, but we had a number of conversations about it and I understood where the policy came from, because reform wants to back British people to have kids and to make sure they're properly looked after. Who wouldn't? And one of my reflections is that the last Conservative government, and indeed this Labour government, have not always brought forward family friendly policies that have helped people to look after their kids, like childcare reforms or house building or using the tax system to support families. And that's something that we should be thinking through, but the problem is we just haven't got any money right now. And the public finances are in a real mess, worse than in fact they were a year or so ago. And so we can't afford to solve the problem that we have through welfare. And so the policy is going to change, has changed. If there was a reform government after the next general election, we would reinstate the cap. Would we still think of ways in which we can help families on low incomes? Yes, absolutely. But it won't be through welfare. We want to find other ways of doing that. Maybe that's reforming childcare, maybe it is through building more homes, but it'll be different things. Welfare isn't the answer. We're already spending far too much on welfare and we've got to remove that because it's not fair on taxpayers, on working people who are funding that. And there'll be other examples as well. I mean, I gave some in my speech today, like, it's not fair that you have the motability scheme that we have today whereby people are getting expensive cars for things like tennis elbows.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Well, because they're. They're using their benefits payments as a part down payment for a loan to.

[Robert Jenrick]

Get a car choice. Imagine you're somebody in my constituency. You know, I represent a working class town in North Nottinghamshire. Most of my constituents are not particularly well paid. They work in things like distribution centers, food processing factories. Tough jobs, frankly. And if you're going out to work at 7 o' clock in the morning to do a shift in one of those businesses and you can't afford a luxury car, then you can imagine how they feel when they see somebody on the drive next door to them who has a mild condition that isn't deserving of that, who's got that as a result of the state. And that's not fair. Of course. Reform always wants to protect the vulnerable and we will do that, believe me. But what we're going to do is instant fairness into the system, so the working people of this country can feel the system is working for them and their interests. For the people who can't work will provide benefits, but not for the people who choose not to work.

[BBC Newscast Host]

We'll talk about benefits again in a second, but I'm just struck by why did you join a party if you had to change the mind of the leader on some quite big things, like whether the OBR should still exist or not, or whether there should be a 2 child benefit cap, or whether you should have tax cuts or spending cuts first? Well, because all the things, lots of the things you're saying today, Reform Party policy was the opposite of as recently as last month.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, the most important things to me and frankly to the country, reform has been in the right place for a very long time. You know, Nigel Farage has been warning about the dangers of mass migration since I was a teenager. You know, when Tony Blair opened us up to immigration from EU accession states before other European countries. Nigel Farage was a lone voice. He was the first person out there warning that the small boats would turn into a major crisis for the country with people coming in who we knew nothing about, who could be a danger to the public, who had cost us billions of pounds. He was laughed at at the time. If you look at net zero and the harm that's doing to the economy, deindustrializing us, impoverishing working people and households, Richard Tice and Nigel Farage were saying that when it was not fashionable, you know, when Theresa May and Boris were putting those policies on stilts. So on some of the most important issues facing the country, Nigel, Richard Zia, the people who built this party have been absolutely right for a very long time. Are there some other things that we can improve to increase people's confidence in the party, particularly on the economy? Yes, and I hope that people can see today that we're doing so. And that's a step in the direction that we need to go in so that we can win the next general election and manage the economy in a serious and credible way, as well as all the other things that people already really trust the party on, like stopping immigration, cutting crime, instilling pride back into the country.

[BBC Newscast Host]

But just to be clear, there will be further things potentially that Nigel Farage was saying last year, the year before, that reforms policy could be 180 degrees opposite quite soon.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, I'm not sure what those would be. I mean, it's a political party, so we have disagreements. We do so privately and in a productive way. But what we have said today very clearly is that reform isn't going to make wild pledges. It's not going to say we can cut taxes before we found the savings to do. So everything that we do and say will be properly thought through in a deliberative manner in the months and years to come leading up to the next general election.

[BBC Newscast Host]

So then on your plans for welfare, and I know they're at an early stage and we're going to get more details. But what's the big controlling thought there about how the welfare system would work under reform? Who would get benefits for what? What would be your kind of yardsticks.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, we'll always support the vulnerable for hard working people who fall on tough times, that is what.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Yeah, because then it's like, well, how would you define vulnerable? We want, we want.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, we want a safety. Well, let me give you some, let me give you some examples. Although clearly there's more work to be done to flesh these out. You know, if you're somebody who has a mild condition, like say mild anxiety, is it right that you therefore get benefits? I think most people in the country would be very skeptical about that and.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Say, yes, they don't have those conditions.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, they would say, yes, absolutely. If you have a serious condition which has been properly diagnosed by the right clinician, you should be supported and looked after, because we all want that safety net in our society. But if you've got a mild condition, like say mild anxiety or mild depression, can the country really afford to do that? No. Is it fair on people who are going out to work? No. Is it actually in the best interest of that person? Probably not. Because work brings all the benefits with it to your own mental health and the dignity that comes with that. And so those are the kind of changes that we'll be looking to do. We said today that we will look to change eligibility for disability benefits for people with some of those mild conditions. We will enforce the fact that you have to go to an in person appointment with a proper clinician before you can be eligible for those sorts of benefits. And we will change, for example, the motability scheme so that you can't go and get a car if you've got very minor conditions like tennis elbow. Of course it should be available to somebody who's genuinely disabled. We all want to see that, to help those people to go to work, to the shops, to college, whatever it is it might be. But that's the sort of changes we'll make, because if we don't make that, the country's going to go bankrupt. And it's both an economic and a moral disaster that people are being left on the scrap heap, particularly the young. I mean, I'm very worried about this large number of young people now who are out of work in many cases because of mental health. These are not people at the end of their careers, these are people whose careers haven't even begun yet. And we should all be concerned about that. What are Labour doing? Absolutely nothing.

[BBC Newscast Host]

They're doing a massive review on Alan Milburn.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, it's been clearly long grassed, hasn't it? I'd be amazed if it comes medium grass, if it becomes to anything. It's been scrapped because Keir Starmer, Rachel Reese have no authority now you've got a government that's falling apart. Applies scrapped.

[BBC Newscast Host]

They're doing a review.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, their original policies were scrapped in a U turn and that's cost billions of pounds as a result, which has had to be found through more tax rises which the economy clearly can ill afford. And then in its place was put some reviews. Who knows what will ever happen to those. I think most people assume that nothing will happen and as a result of that millions of people beyond the scrap heap, billions of pounds will be wasted, which is not fair to taxpayers. The public finances will be a mess and we can't continue like this. So reform is very clear on this point. Reform is a party for working people, it's not a party of welfare. And we're going to find serious savings for the welfare budget. Putting together the most comprehensive plan of any of the political parties to get a grip on the welfare bill. How much so we can restore fair.

[BBC Newscast Host]

How much do you think you can save in pounds?

[Robert Jenrick]

We deliberately not put a figure on it. Why? Because we want to do this in a serious and deliberative manner. We're not just going to do stuff on the back of an envelope. I mean I, I saw that within the Conservative Party, where in the autumn of last year, so that they could announce a few things at the party conference when it looked like the party was completely on the ropes, they just made up a figure of 20 something billion pounds of savings from the welfare budget. No explanation whatsoever. It was brought forward by the person who'd previously been the work and pension secretary. So if you didn't do it when you were in office a year ago, how would we believe that you would do it now? That's not our approach. What I am instilling in reform is that we're going to bring forward serious savings. We'll show our workings so you can have faith in them. And only once we've done that will we say how we'll spend that money, either on public services or on tax cuts.

[BBC Newscast Host]

You gave a figure in the speech of 25 billion pounds a year of spending cuts. Where are we on the totalizer of working out where they're all going to come from? Have you accounted for the whole £25 billion?

[Robert Jenrick]

We have, yeah. Those are savings that Zia Yousef and Richard Tice developed last year and they're very sensible things like for example, saying that we're not going to pay benefits to people who are not British. Citizens. I think that's right. Like saying that the immigration health surcharge should be higher because the NHS is a national health service, it's not an international health service. If you come to our country as our guest, say as a student or a visitor or a business person or for a period of time to work here, then you should pay your way. You shouldn't be relying on the taxpayer. So those are very credible properties.

[BBC Newscast Host]

But those sounds like sort of tens and hundreds of millions, not billions.

[Robert Jenrick]

No, no, they, they account to 25 billion. And I've gone through those numbers. I wouldn't have said that today if I hadn't been through those numbers. And I'm confident that they are accurate and that we could deliver them in government. We do have further proposals, but I chose not to say them today because I want to subject them to the highest level of rigor before we put them into the public domain. But we will be setting out in the months to come a big program of welfare reform so we can bring this bill down, save the taxpayers money, instill fairness, frankly into the system as well as freeing money for the other priorities of the British people.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Then just a few sort of kind of CV related questions for you. First of all, you talked about in the speech and you were launched with a video where you talked about your dad's business and you talked about trades and manufacturing and kind of jobs that happen in like warehouses rather than kind of services jobs. If that's so important to the economy and that was so important to your family, why did you go into really white collar jobs like the law?

[Robert Jenrick]

Yeah, fair criticism. You need both, don't you? Is the truth. I mean, yeah, I grew up in the black country and you could make.

[BBC Newscast Host]

More money as a lawyer.

[Robert Jenrick]

A lot of people. Well, you know, we all. There's no shame in that. I mean, there's no shame wanting to get on in life. That's one of the things reform stands for. We want people to be better off. We're never going to criticize people for wanting a nicer house or a better car. You know, the age of guilt tripping people for these things is over under reform. You know, we want people to aspire to have more, to have better lives for themselves and their kids. But I want both of these things to happen in the economy is to your point. I do think we've got to re industrialize. And I saw for myself in my childhood the impact that the loss of industry in places like the black country and where I represent now in North Nottinghamshire, that Used to have heavy industry and coal mining industry has had on those screens. There was a loss of identity and pride that came with it. And now we're a country that makes so little just at a time when you've got these big security challenges like China. So we want to find ways, mainly through lower energy prices in making heavy industry more competitive in this country. But we also want to embrace the technologies and the industries of the future like life sciences and AI and technology and financial services. Where I was today, there's no way in which the British economy can get productivity going again, restore living standards to the kind of levels that they were 20 or 30 years ago when you had GDP per capita of 2, 3, 4% unimaginable today where we're basically in a GDP per person recession where most quarters you're seeing living standards decline on a per person basis if we don't have both and that's what we're going to do.

[BBC Newscast Host]

And then in the other bit of your cv we were looking back to just see when you'd worked in the treasury before and of course you were Exchequer Secretary under Philip Hammond, which seems like two ice ages ago that then got me thinking. I can sort of imagine this speech you gave today, Philip Hammond giving it. Well is that fair? Actually it's quite conservatives 2016.

[Robert Jenrick]

No, I don't. Well firstly, firstly, if you'll prove, if.

[BBC Newscast Host]

You mean by that the welfare bill be out of control, if you mean.

[Robert Jenrick]

By that that reform is going to be fiscally conservative, careful with people's money, not make pledges that it hasn't thought through, then yes, I take that as a compliment wholeheartedly. But the policies that we're announcing and proposing to get the economy firing in all cylinders again are very different from the ones of that period. If you remember you had Theresa May saying that we're going to put Net Zero 2050 into law without any debate, an absolutely catastrophic decision that has ended up de industrializing the country. You know we're losing car manufacturing, steel, ceramics, glass, fertilizers, you name it. We're swapping a car manufactured in Sunderland for one made in Shenzhen. The Chinese building a middle class on the backs of our own, that is not what we support during that period. And what came immediately afterwards under Boris, the Boris wave, you saw massive influx of people, particularly low wage, low skilled people. In fact the vast majority of people who came in during that time weren't coming to work at all. And as a result of that British workers wages were undercut because businesses like the ones I know my constituency, the distribution centres, food processing factories. They were able to reach for this lever of foreign workers rather than invest in their own workforce, wages and skills and in new technology to raise productivity. So what we're actually proposing is, yes, it's conservative in some respects, because we're going to respect institutions, we're going to be fiscally prudent and restore stability, but it's actually revolutionary because we're saying we're going to have a complete end to mass migration, an end to the net zero policy, deregulation in the economy. We're going to get the country building again. No more holding back house building and building factories and labs and data centers and serious welfare reform. If we get that balance right, then I think we've got the. The ability to really turn around the British economy in the way we haven't seen for a generation.

[BBC Newscast Host]

It's just so interesting because I've now spoken to lots of people who have been Shadow Chancellors, although I suppose technically you're a Shadow treasury spokesperson, because only the Opposition get to be called.

[Robert Jenrick]

Yeah, it seems to. They seem to have got very. They got their knickers in a twist about that one, haven't they? They don't like us. Well, no, it's just calling ourselves.

[BBC Newscast Host]

No, but it's just the rules. What rule? What rule of the culture? It's the convention.

[Robert Jenrick]

It's just a convention. But I mean, the convention is. Is. Is over because reformers led the polls the last 200 opinion polls, and if you ask somebody on the street which party is providing the opposition to this Labour government right now, most people would say reform anyway. We're not.

[BBC Newscast Host]

We're not in an erskine May strategy.

[Robert Jenrick]

Look at what's happened this week. You know, Nigel took the government to court and force them to U turn so that 4.6 million people will get the right to vote in May. We've just announced and reformed their bills.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Paid for by the taxpayer as a result.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, I mean, quite right. The government shouldn't have done that, should they? They presumably had legal advice saying that this one was not appropriate. They overrode it and they went ahead with the decision.

[BBC Newscast Host]

I mean, the point. The point I was making is that. What? That lots of the building blocks of your speech today are building blocks that other Shadow Chancellors have deployed. I mean, Rachel Reeves talked about a lot of these things when she was Shadow Chancellor. Sure.

[Robert Jenrick]

But what happened? The opposite stability chaos. She said she'd reduce bills. Bills have gone up, thanks to the ridiculous energy policy that they've pursued. She said that there'd be no tax rises, £60 billion in tax rises. So, yes, I think a lot of people listening to this will be weary because they will have heard Shadow Chancellors say this in the past, only to let them down. That's why I'm taking this very deliberative approach, not saying things that people can't trust and believe in. But we are saying as well that we are going to have some very serious changes. We're being honest with the public about that. It's a big change to say that we're going to end the era of mass migration. That will require serious welfare reform. It will require businesses to change their business models very significantly. So we're going to be very clear about the trade offs. But why are we doing this? Well, I want to lower bills and taxes, I want to bring back good jobs and I want to allow businesses to flourish once again in this country and end this 20 year cycle we've had now where wages have stagnated. And the people I grew up around in Wolverhampton, the people I represent now in North Nottinghamshire, they are feeling hard up, they're feeling poor. We're not a rich country at the moment. And it's only by taking this approach which balances stability with serious radical reforms, that we'll be able to fix this country and put it on a better footing for the future.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Got so many more questions I want to ask, but we're running out of time just to pick on something you said there about just changing the political economy of the country. And there was a line in your speech when you said businesses should just prepare for this. Now that was that sort of a bit of a threat or what do you want businesses to. Should businesses who are sensible be preparing for the new reform world now?

[Robert Jenrick]

Yes.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Is that your place to say that?

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, look, we aspire to be the next government of this country. We're currently leading in the opinion polls. I hope that can continue. We'll be able to continue to earn the trust of the British public. If we win the next election, there will be some big changes to the way their economy functions. You know, I think we've let down the British public, the whole political class has for the last 20 years in pursuing a policy of importing foreign labour instead of investing in British workers, I mean, it's made us poorer as a country. So, yes, my advice to businesses would be you should be looking to change your business model now, so you should be investing more in British workers and their skills, or in automation and robotics. Rather than simply assuming that like the Conservative Party or Labour, we're saying one thing, we'll do another in office. Because I can assure you that is not how it's going to work. You know, Nigel is a man of conviction who is consistent.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Well, apart from on the two child benefit, the obr.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, nobody has been more consistent on immigration than him in this country. He means what he says on that. You know, if you look at net zero. Well, if you're somebody who is investing in these incredibly expensive forms of energy that are heavily reliant on subsidy that Ed Miliband is pushing, well, you should know that we're going to have a different energy policy. We're going to go for cheap and reliable energy. And so that does mean that those subsidies are likely to go.

[BBC Newscast Host]

But lots of those contracts for that renewable energy are signed to last for 20 years or more.

[Robert Jenrick]

Well, that may, that may have to change.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Well, you might rip them up.

[Robert Jenrick]

Yeah.

[BBC Newscast Host]

What, so you don't stand for the rule of law and contract?

[Robert Jenrick]

There are no easy answers to this challenge. I'm not prepared for this country's economic competitiveness to be destroyed by Ed Miliband and his net zero zealotry. He's causing enough harm today that's going to continue until the next general election, whenever that comes. But I'm not prepared for us to say that he gets to choose the energy mix and the cost of energy for this country for the next 10, 20, 30 years. And so if I am putting, as Richard Tice has done as well, some of those investors on notice that we may not be able to stand behind those contracts. They shouldn't be investing in this. You know, they are profiteering at the expense of the British people. We're going to ensure that we make this country competitive again. And that means having cheap and reliable energy, energy abundance. That is our policy. If we don't do that, then the 2 million jobs that still rely on intensive energy like car manufacturing, steel, ceramics, fertilizers, glass, et cetera, they're all going to be gone. All gone to China and the Far east or even countries like Germany or United States that have got more competitive energy policies than ours. We're not prepared to do that. We'll never re industrialize the country and salvage those industries unless we have a different energy policy. So yes, we will be careful and we'll think through these responses very carefully in the months and years ahead. But we're not going to compromise the competitiveness of the UK have you had.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Any big CEOs knocking on your door since you got your new job.

[Robert Jenrick]

Yeah, well, we want to speak to them and, yeah, I have begun to do that, but I'm actually.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Do they take your calls?

[Robert Jenrick]

They do. They do. Well, they can see what's happening, can't they? If a party is 10 points ahead in the opinion polls and broadly speaking has been for over a year now, they can see that something's happening in the country and there is a good chance of a reform government after the next election. A lot of people who are frustrated by this Labour government also increasingly come to the same conclusion that I did, that if you want to get rid of Labour and Keir Starmer or whoever replaces him as leader, you have to rally behind Nigel and Reform. There's no option. The next general election is going to be an election where it's Keir Starmer or his replacement and Labour versus Nigel and reform. And I knew instantly if you asked me that question, where I stand and many other people are asking themselves the same point, whether we should be putting party loyalty to one side, because perhaps you've always voted Conservative or indeed labor, and do what you think is right for the country now, which is ensure not only does reform win, but is in the best possible position to actually deliver on its promises and fix the country.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Right, last observation. You and I are now grizzled veterans. So you remember 2011 and you used a phrase today, alarm clock Britain. Do you remember? The first frontline politician.

[Robert Jenrick]

To my eternal shame, somebody has claimed that this was first invented by Nick Clegg.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Well, let's have a listen. We're on the side of the people I call Alarm Clock Britain, on the side of everyone who wants to get up and get on. People who, unlike the wealthy, have no choice but to work hard to make ends meet. I mean, actually, it's more than just alarm clock Britain sounds similar there. That was basically what you've just been saying. How do you feel about. Do you agree with Nick?

[Robert Jenrick]

I don't know if he invented the phrase, but he didn't invent alarm clocks. But that's, you know, who. Who is, and I mean this very, very sincerely, who am I in politics for? Well, it is for people like my dad. It is for the people who this morning got up on a cold Winter's morning at 7 o' clock in the morning in our towns and cities and went out to do a hard shift at work. That is what reform exists for. For those people we want to lower their bills, reduce their taxes, give them stability, ensure that they want to set up a business, become a sole trader. They can do so bring back good jobs. Everything that we do will be for them. We're not going to forget where we came from or who we're in politics for. It's for them.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Robert Jemerich, thank you very much. Oh, have you, have you got new business cards, by the way?

[Robert Jenrick]

I don't think I have a business card yet. I'll have to get Nigel to print.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Maybe they're a bit old school now, business cards, but thank you very much.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Thank you.

[BBC Newscast Host]

So that was my conversation with Robert Jenrick. I'm sure some of you will quibble with some of the assertions he made. Some of you might want to have more evidence for some of the claims that he made too. Or maybe you absolutely lapped up what he was saying and you'd love to hear more of it. My big takeaway from that conversation is a lot of the areas Robert Jenrick was straying into and the things he was talking about is stuff that Shadow Chancellors from all parties have talked about for decades now. And so the big question is, can those actually quite familiar sounding ingredients really, really be mixed up into a brand new recipe as reform claim? And I suppose that's what the next few years are going to be about. Amongst other things. And that's all for this episode of Newscast. We'll be back with another one very soon.

[Robert Jenrick]

Bye bye.

[BBC Newscast Host]

Newscast Newscast from the BBC. Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget you can email us anytime. It's newscast BBC.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything Newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast. And don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.

[Robert Jenrick]

Bye.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Comfort is often the first thing we're willing to give up. But don't let style be the reason you aren't comfy. Mack Weldon's Ace Collection makes it effortless to look put together while feeling truly comfortable. Inspired by their best selling sweatpants, the Ace Collection combines everyday comfort with long lasting and confident looks. Upgrade your collection for the new year with new bomber jackets, half zips, sweatshirts, crewnecks, and much more. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with promo code MAC25.