The Sadiq Khan Interview

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newscast — The Sadiq Khan Interview

Date: January 12, 2026
Hosts: Adam Fleming, Chris Mason
Guest: Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London

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Overview

In this substantive episode of Newscast, hosts Adam Fleming and Chris Mason visit City Hall in East London for an in-depth interview with the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. The conversation covers major topics affecting London—from urban renewal and crime rates to social media regulation and the political narrative around the city’s image. The episode also delves into national Labour Party dynamics, Sadiq Khan’s views on relations with the EU, and the evolving role of technology and youth policy in governance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. London’s Identity and Reputation

Timestamps: 01:10–03:13

• The discussion opens with the hosts riffing on the loaded perceptions of London—both as the UK’s capital and a world city.
• They highlight common narratives: London’s “outsized” influence, perceptions of crime, and political sparring (e.g., frequent criticism from Donald Trump towards Khan).
• Chris Mason:

  “London is a world city that happens to be the UK’s capital, doesn’t it?” (02:01)

• Adam Fleming points out the meme-like spread of crime stories, especially phone thefts.

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2. Oxford Street Pedestrianisation

Timestamps: 03:13–06:08

• Sadiq Khan unveils plans for the pedestrianization of Oxford Street, seeking to revive it as “the nation’s high street.”
• His vision includes more greenery, public spaces, and a focus beyond retail to leisure, hospitality, and tourism.
• Notable Quote:
  Sadiq Khan:

  “We’re going to revitalize that street, we’re going to re-energize that street, we’re going to invest in that street, improve the public realm, plant some trees, green that street, get rid of cars and buses…” (04:32)

• Timelines: Consultation and phases will start “this year,” with initial phases from Oxford Circus to just past Selfridges. (05:52–05:56)

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3. Crime Reduction and Public Perception

Timestamps: 06:08–13:18

• Khan announces record-low per capita homicide rates and significant decreases in youth and knife-related incidents.
• Credits London’s “public health approach”: enforcement, early intervention, violence reduction unit since 2019.
  • 44% reduction in young people injured with a knife admitted to hospitals since 2019.
  • London’s murder rate compared favorably to major global cities (two and a half times safer than NYC, etc.).
• Notable Quote:
  Sadiq Khan:

  “London is safer than Paris, Milan, Rome, Brussels, Berlin... two and a half times safer than New York, five times safer than Los Angeles, twelve times safer than Chicago.” (07:57)

• Critique of misleading narratives about London as dangerous, which he attributes to politicians and commentators with “distortions and untruths” and even a “racist undertone.” (09:20-10:15)
  • On social perceptions:
    Chris Mason:

    “So you think there’s a sort of racist undertone to this portrayal of London?” (09:30)

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4. Phone Theft Issues and Enforcement

Timestamps: 13:18–17:19

• High phone theft rates: Just over 1% of thefts result in a conviction.
• Khan outlines multi-pronged strategy: Operation Reckoning targeting international gangs, doubling police in hotspots, pushing phone manufacturers for “kill switches.”
• Notable Quote:
  Sadiq Khan:

  “Many of the phones stolen end up in China or North Africa or other parts of the globe. These are international serious organizations, criminal gangs.” (14:25)

• Push for preventative design: “Why can’t the phone companies make stolen phones useless...?” (15:25)

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5. Social Media, AI, and Regulation

Timestamps: 17:19–22:49

• Khan sees social media as both essential and problematic.
• Stresses that abusive environments discourage women and minorities from political careers.
• Praises the new Online Safety Act as a starting point, but calls for ongoing review, especially with the rise of AI-generated misinformation and deepfakes.
  • Describes own experience as an early deepfake target.
• Notable Quote:
  Sadiq Khan:

  “Regulation has not caught up with the pace of innovation around social media, the most recent incarnation being AI.” (18:17)

• Supports learning from international approaches (e.g., Australia’s ban on social media for under-16s); prefers to “copy well rather than invent badly.” (22:23)

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6. Labour Party, Election Outlook, and Reflections on Leadership

Timestamps: 22:49–27:14

• Discussion of upcoming London local elections and Labour’s prospects.
• Khan recognizes mid-term losses are likely (“it’s not going to be easy for Labour”), but defends Labour’s recent progress in renters’ rights, childcare, trade deals, and more.
• Notable Quote:
  Sadiq Khan:

  “You don’t turn around a country that’s been in this perilous state for fourteen years in fourteen months. It takes time to do so.” (24:43)

• Khan urges focus on delivery over leadership drama, citing 2019’s dire Labour standings and Keir Starmer’s turnaround.

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7. UK–EU Relations and Brexit Aftermath

Timestamps: 27:14–29:33

• Khan calls Brexit “the biggest act of economic self harm any country’s ever done” but accepts outcome, advocates for maximum alignment with the EU.
• Favors close economic links, supports existing and expanded trade deals, avoids calling outright for rejoining single market.
  • “It’s got to be in the best interest of the UK, both economically and culturally, and, by the way, socially as well.” (29:20)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On recent crime stats:
  “One homicide is one death too many. One violent crime is one victim too many." —Sadiq Khan (06:21)
• On perception versus reality:
  "Those that know London don’t accept that narrative, don’t accept that thesis." —Sadiq Khan (10:40)
• On youth and social media:
  "I’m a firm believer in copying well rather than inventing badly." —Sadiq Khan (22:23)
• On Labour's record:
  "We've now got trade deals with India, the USA, the European Union and South Korea. And I could go on." —Sadiq Khan (25:10)

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Noteworthy Segment Timestamps

• Oxford Street Revitalization: 03:25–06:08
• Violent Crime Reduction & International Comparisons: 06:21–08:39
• Nativist Narratives & Racism Debate: 08:39–10:15
• Phone Theft and Enforcement: 13:18–17:19
• Social Media Regulation and AI Threats: 17:19–22:49
• Labour's Local Election Challenge: 22:49–27:14
• UK-EU Relationship: 27:14–29:33

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Hosts' Reflection & Analysis

Timestamps: 32:03–39:43

• Chris Mason notes Khan’s “sense of injustice” at national and international narratives about London.
• Adam Fleming observes Khan’s loyalty to Labour leadership and the possible political fallout from upcoming elections.
• Discussion on Reform UK’s latest Conservative defector (Nadhim Zahawi), what it means for the party, and broader trends in party politics.

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Tone and Language

The episode is filled with the familiar, thoughtful, and lightly humorous tone characteristic of Newscast. Khan’s responses are forthright, occasionally wry, and rooted in both pride for London and caution against complacency. Hosts maintain critical but friendly questioning, seeking specifics and pressing gently where needed.

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For Listeners

• This episode is a masterclass in UK urban policy and political narrative-setting.
• You’ll walk away with both hard statistics on London’s crime landscape and nuanced insight into political gamesmanship, digital governance, and the Labour Party’s present and future.
• Whether you’re a Londoner or following UK politics from afar, it’s a comprehensive look at the state of the capital and its place in the world and the nation.

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Listen for a full account of Sadiq Khan’s vision for London, the challenges of managing a global city, and the dynamic interplay between local leadership and national politics.

Transcript

[Adam Fleming]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads.

[Sadiq Khan]

Outside the UK.

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[Adam Fleming]

Chris should we play a little thought experiment with newscast listeners?

[Chris Mason]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

What is the first thing, newscast listener, that pops into your mind when I say the word London?

[Chris Mason]

It's a big word, isn't it?

[Adam Fleming]

Hang on, we need to give them some time to think.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, sorry. So I'm just jumping in. I haven't really got. Well, it's that thing that, you know, because it can be quite loaded. So I remember, you know, growing up in Yorkshire, there'd be that sense of, yes, it's the capital city and there's that sense of the smoke, but is there the sense that London does better than everywhere else, or people forever talk about it and forget about other parts of the country, which might be a risk for us on this episode.

[Adam Fleming]

And if you live in London, you're never far from a conversation about people's phone being stolen, whether it's happened to you or not, or your friends or not, everyone does talk about it as a thing. So there's a sort of crime meme at the moment. And also us as political journalists. Like, you know, you're never far from Donald Trump basically slagging off Sidi Khan, the mayor.

[Chris Mason]

And then you're also aware. I'm always also aware, whatever people's views about London, either people living in London or beyond, that London is a world city that happens to be the UK's capital, doesn't it? So it's sort of outsized within a country of 60 odd, 70 million people, a conurbation of whatever it is, 10 million, roughly. It's sort of outsized it has a global significance that is arguably greater. And the country that it happens to be the capital of, without wanting for a second talk down the country of which we are proud citizens.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, that's enough. Time for you to think what you think about London. And the reason we're talking about our capital city is because Chris and I have been invited to City hall in East London for a big, long, wide ranging, as they say in the Journalese, chat with the mayor of London, Sir Sadiq Khan. So that's what you'll hear on this.

[Sadiq Khan]

Episode of Newscast, Newscast, newscast from the BBC. Fat Boy Slim and me in the.

[Chris Mason]

Classroom doing our violin lessons.

[Sadiq Khan]

I was the tattletail in the class. Can I have an apology, please?

[Chris Mason]

I trust almost nobody that daddy has to sometimes use strong language. Next time in mosque.

[Unidentified Speaker (possibly a child or guest)]

I feel dulu with no salulu.

[Sadiq Khan]

Take me down to Downing Street.

[Adam Fleming]

Let's go have a tour.

[Chris Mason]

Blimey.

[Adam Fleming]

Mr. Mayor, hello.

[Sadiq Khan]

Good to be back.

[Adam Fleming]

Also, this is the first time we've been in, I call it your new office. But you have been here for three years now, haven't you?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, newscast on the road. Good to see. Good to see a field trip for us. Yeah, very good.

[Adam Fleming]

Before we begin with the serious business. Right, I've got some paperwork here. Here is the artist's impression of the new pedestrianized Oxford Street. Right. So look at the artwork on the ground, the logo on the ground. It's like a sort of orange and teal triangular artwork, isn't it?

[Sadiq Khan]

I can feel a claim. Come in.

[Adam Fleming]

Look at the new cast logo. Do you see any signs to the ground of Oxford street and us?

[Sadiq Khan]

We have ripped off BBC. That's not an admission of liability, by the way, or a confession. Words will be had, I can promise you. No.

[Adam Fleming]

Is it gonna actually look like that, do you think, when it's pedestrianized?

[Chris Mason]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay, news agents, logo, glasses all over it.

[Chris Mason]

No, no.

[Sadiq Khan]

But we're trying, on a serious note, we're trying to give people an idea of what Oxford street looks like without cars, without buses. We are gonna pedestrianize this street. Why? Because it's a great street. Historically, when we were growing up, it was the nation's high street. Over successive decades, it's been in decline. And we wanna bring people back not just to retail, but leisure, hospitality, tourism and so forth. It's going to be fantastic.

[Chris Mason]

Do you kind of accept them that it's not the nation's high street now?

[Sadiq Khan]

I think there are problems with Oxford Street. When I was growing up, there wasn't the competition. Shopping online There wasn't competition from great malls. We hadn't had the pandemic. That means that we should redouble our efforts to support retail, but also to recognize. Look, there's three things people did remarkably well during the pandemic. Work from home, do leisure from home and shop from home. We've got to make each of those three experiences better in person. And so our offer to the retail sector in Oxford street is we're going to revitalize that street, we're going to re energize that street, we're going to invest in that street, improve the public realm, plant some trees, green that street, get rid of the cars and the buses. And I think you'll see big names coming back because too many have left, but also not just Londoners. People across the country and across the globe wanting to come to Oxford street to spend time and to shop.

[Chris Mason]

So when will it happen?

[Sadiq Khan]

We are working on plans now. We've got some plans out of consultation on some changes to the traffic movement. We've set up a development corporation, we've set up a board to look into this. I would hope by the middle of this year to be able to share better pictures than BBC newscast, rip off.

[Adam Fleming]

With more generic artwork and we could.

[Sadiq Khan]

Start moving forward this year.

[Chris Mason]

I hope that's not quite an answer. When will it actually happen? When will it be pedestrianised?

[Sadiq Khan]

This year?

[Chris Mason]

This year. So it will happen this year. Entirely pedestrianised this year.

[Sadiq Khan]

We'll do it in phases. So the first part, if you can visualise, is for those non Londoners. I apologise. Oxford Circus tube station, basically going towards Bond street, just past Selfridges. That'd be the first phase of that street being pedestrianised.

[Adam Fleming]

No, the Leeds tram. Just kidding. You don't have any responsibility for that. Just trying to balance it out for the rest of the country. Right, let's talk about some of the other work you've been doing. Crime. And there's some data you want to share with us today that kind of tells a about what's been happening in Montana.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, firstly, it's really important I say this because I feel this. You know, one homicide is one death too many. One violent crime is one victim too many. But the progress we've made, even our harshest critics will have to accept is remarkable. Evidence published today by the police shows that last year we had the fewest number of murders, homicides since records began on a per capita basis. The fewest numbers of under 25s killed this century, the lowest number of teenagers killed in almost three decades, and there's a number of reasons for that. We have had a sustained focus on a public health approach to addressing violent crime, being tough on crime enforcement, supporting the police with record investment, and tough on the complex causes of crime by early intervention and prevention. So we set up the country's first violence reduction unit in 2019. Since then, we've seen a 44% reduction in young people injured with a knife going to hospitals. And that means there are three times fewer young people being killed than 2019.

[Adam Fleming]

When you say a public health approach, do you mean treating knife crime, gun crime, murders, almost like a disease?

[Sadiq Khan]

Spot on. What do you do when there's a disease? You deal with the infection. So we've had dispensing of serious organized criminal gangs, disrupting county and drugs lines, precision manhunts, increased surveillance. You stopped the infection spreading similarly, doubling investment from City hall to the police service at a time of central government cuts, but also stop the infection occurring in the first place. So we provided youth club facilities, youth workers in police stations and in hospitals. We provided mentors to young people, after school clubs, holidays schemes, tackled the issue of exclusions and absenteeism. And that's why I can say with humility and not complacency at all, London is safer than Paris, Milan, Rome, Brussels, Berlin, Toronto, safer than any state in the USA, two and a half times safer than New York, five times safer than Los Angeles, 12 times safer than Chicago. We're not complacent, though. We're going to make more progress in building this.

[Chris Mason]

The context of all of this is that there's a narrative, isn't there, out there on social media and elsewhere, that London is dangerous, that it's some sort of hellhole. That's the kind of language you see people using about London. We've heard language from the President of the United States, from Nigel Farage, the reform leader, and from others. Why do you think they are making that argument?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, in recent years, certain politicians and commentators have been spamming our social media feeds with what I call distortions and untruths. They do it for their own political agenda. They do it because they may be nativists, they may have a certain world view. Let's look at London objectively.

[Adam Fleming]

If you're a nativist, you mean somebody who thinks that to be British you.

[Sadiq Khan]

Have to be white or spot on, or to be a Westerner, you've got to be white or there's a clash of civilizations.

[Chris Mason]

So you think there's a sort of racist undertone to this portrayal of London.

[Sadiq Khan]

Look at London. London is liberal, it is progressive, it is diverse, and it is incredibly successful with the antithesis of everything some of these politicians and commentators stand for. Look at a number of independent objective criteria. The number one city in the world for tourism, the music capital of the world, the sporting capital of the world, international student capital of the world. The foreign direct investment in London is remarkable. Last year, with more Americans coming here to work, to study and to invest for some time, and that's a problem. If you're somebody who doesn't believe it's possible for diversity to be a strength and you think it's a weakness, you're.

[Chris Mason]

Coming out today and making this argument and making it passionately. I guess some might say maybe you should have been on this soapbox, making this argument much more forceful for so long so that this narrative that's out there was trampled on sooner.

[Sadiq Khan]

I can point you, Chris and Adam, after we finish this, two examples of me doing so, and I'll.

[Chris Mason]

But if it was successful, I guess that narrative, that narrative of a failing city wouldn't have taken hold.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, here's the issue. Those that know London don't accept that narrative, don't accept that thesis. And that's one of the reasons why JPMorgan Chase, Apple, Google, I could. A number of examples are investing in London. That's the reason why tourists come here. That's why international students come here. It's those that don't know London who believe this perception and this narrative. And that's one of the things I'm keen to rebut and respond to. So if you're somebody who may live in a part of the country and for good reasons has never mixed with Muslims, or it hasn't spent time in a place that's diverse, you may not unreasonably believe this narrative because you've not been to London. You may be scared of coming to London.

[Adam Fleming]

Have you seen evidence that people were.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, when you listen to radio phonings or look at social media, you get some people who believe some of this nonsense and distortions, or the sense that.

[Chris Mason]

London can be a sort of punch bag, I guess, or the sense that maybe the streets are paved with gold, or that it gets a disproportionate amount of funding, that kind of thing.

[Sadiq Khan]

There are a number of preconceptions people have about London. There are some people who believe the streets are paved with gold, which is one of my concerns when it comes to the laudable objective which I support, to make a country More equal. I think the way to make our country more equal is not to make London poorer, to make other parts of the country get more investment. But it's across the globe, Chris. You've got people now who may only be on X, who may follow the likes of President Trump OR Vice President J.D. vance In America, or follow the likes of Elon Musk across the globe. And my nervousness and anxieties, they will believe the version they're putting out is the correct version.

[Adam Fleming]

But had you started seeing evidence that somebody who maybe would have come to London for the weekend to see a West End show five years ago wasn't going to come now and it was because of stuff they'd seen on social media?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, the good news is we're winning the argument in terms of we're not seeing that, thankfully, we're seeing record numbers come to London in terms of tourists. Theatre productions are sold out. You know, every artist in the world wants to perform in London. If you're talented, you want to come to one of our universities. So that's all good and well, but we can't be complacent. I don't want people talking down our capital city. I think it's unpatriotic to talk down our capital city. What we are seeing is it's not.

[Adam Fleming]

Making any difference economically or tourism wise. Why does it matter?

[Sadiq Khan]

What we are seeing, though, is British politicians and British commentators jumping on that bandwagon, talking down our capital city, using London as a punch bag to try and garner sports across the country. Given the impression diversity is a problem across the country, giving an impression that integration is a challenge across the country. The evidence from London is our diversity is a strength, not a weakness. It makes us richer, not poorer, which is incredibly important.

[Adam Fleming]

You're kind of actually speaking as a national politician here rather than a mayor of a city, aren't you? That's a UK wide message you're putting across there.

[Sadiq Khan]

We are the capital city of our great country. We're a city that's grown, which I think is a good thing. It's because people want to come here. We've got to recognise, though, that brings with it challenges and opportunities as well. One of the challenges is to continue to make London an attractive place and that's an opportunity for us, because we want wealth creators to come here to generate wealth, generate prosperity and help us.

[Chris Mason]

Loads for us to talk about. Just on that subject of crime and looking beyond what you were talking about, phone thefts. So just over 1% of phone thefts in London result in a charge or conviction. According to police data, 117,000 stolen during 2024. I mean, having your phone nicked in London is basically legal, isn't it? When you look at that 1% figure if your phone is nicked, that's the end of it, you're not gonna see it again and there'll be, and the evidence suggests there's not gonna anything coming about other than you having to get another phone.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, if your phone is stolen, it's incredibly distressing. You've got all your photographs in there, your personal messages, your phone numbers and so forth. And we have seen in the past an increase in mobile phone thefts in all cities across Europe, including London. We've got our focus to tackle that. So what are we doing about this? We've, with the police, had Operation Reckoning. Many of the phones stolen end up in China or North Africa or other parts of the globe. These are international serious organizations, criminal gangs. And so what the police have done is shut down these gangs who are responsible for tens of thousands of phones being taken overseas. We've doubled the size of the team in the West End. A lot of these phones, and by the way, luxury watches were stolen in parts of London which are quite well to do, inverted commas. And so we've got more police officers, covert and overt there. And that's what we've seen, for example, in the most recent figures, a 15% reduction in personal robbery. This is classified as personal robbery. And a 25% reduction in personal theft. This is classified as personal theft. I'm not complacent. We're going to make more progress. But we're also at the same time lobbying phone companies.

[Chris Mason]

Why?

[Sadiq Khan]

If you remember years ago, the thefts of car stereos from our cars or the tomtoms, the sat navs, the government worked with manufacturers to design out this issue. Well, why can't the phone companies make stolen phones useless by having a kill switch, by denying access to the cloud if a phone is stolen, having a unique number plate almost visible on a phone. So we're doing the enforcement stuff, we're going to carry on doing the enforcement stuff, but also work with the phone companies to make more progress.

[Adam Fleming]

And the aircon has just kicked in and none of us can work out how to turn it off because it's automated in this very high tech building. Just on phone theft, though, I mean, you go to a lot of places. I mean, for example, when you get off the Tube, quite often you see a sign in the underground station saying be Careful how you use your, don't use your phone as you're leaving the tube station. I mean, is that advice you give to people? Keep your phone in your pocket.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, can I explain why TFL of Transmit for London have done that?

[Adam Fleming]

It's quite a horrible thing to see.

[Sadiq Khan]

Yeah. Look, without in any way victim blaming, it's really important to understand who's responsible. The robber or the thief is responsible, not you as somebody who may use your phone for a map or use your phone to make a phone call to say I've arrived safely and so forth. And so it's just to make us all savvy like you would when it comes to our bag being open in a congested place when you go to a concert. So for to make sure you're not.

[Adam Fleming]

The victim of pickpockets, isn't that the phone thieves winning even without having to steal the phone because they're making normal law abiding people have to change their behavior and you can't do something that's a pretty normal thing to do.

[Sadiq Khan]

Adam, you're making a case for leaving our windows open all the time and our doors open, not locking them and stuff. I'm somebody bleeding. Those were the days. Look, I think it's a combination of personal responsibility but also understanding we need tough enforcement. We've got record numbers by the way, in London of closed circuit television. Really important in terms of deterring crime but also catching perpetrators. But also we've made good progress in this golden quarter this winter in terms of theft and robbery. We're going to build them that.

[Chris Mason]

Let's talk about social media. You mentioned it a few minutes ago in the context of X and we've seen this debate rumbling in the last 24, 48 hours around X in the UK and its place in the political conversation, even the national conversation. Where are you on that platform and those who make the argument that there could be circumstances where it would be justified to basically turn it off in the uk?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, my starting point is social media generally speaking has been a source for good.

[Chris Mason]

Do you think so? Because I mean you've been on the wrong end of some of the most horrific abuse. It's quite something for you to say that.

[Sadiq Khan]

Yeah, of course there are bad examples but you know, you can connect with people halfway across the globe. Just think about what's happening in Iran at the moment as we speak, or in the uprisings taking place across the Middle east in the past and so it allows you to be a citizen journalist. Often apologies for professional journalists, but Also, it allows you to connect. So I can broadcast on social media. If, for example, heaven forbid, the BBC doesn't want to cover my story, I can broadcast on social media. My concern about social media is regulation has not caught up with the pace of innovation around social media, the most recent incarnation being AI. My concern around social media when it comes to people like me is not about me personally, but if you're somebody who's an ethnic minority or somebody who's a woman or a girl thinking about becoming a politician, you may think twice or thrice because of the experience women politicians suffer on social media or I suffer. But actually what we need to do is this. Firstly, now that there is an Online Safety Act, Ofcom have the powers that in the past have. Let's wait and see what OFCOM concluding their investigation, what sanctions they put on X. I would hope X would act responsibly in terms of what OFCOM find. But it's really important that the parliamentarians, the legislators understand that. But each stage since social media was invented, they've been behind the curve. Think about the regulation there is on the BBC, on mainstream media, whether it's newspapers or broadcast, compared to social media.

[Chris Mason]

And so would you want similar kind of regulation for social media as the BBC, as broadcasters, as newspapers have?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, I think there's a whole conversation about algorithms. There's a whole conversation about the fact that there aren't human beings to double check what's happening on social media since Elon Musk converted Twitter to actually removed a lot of human beings changed the algorithms.

[Chris Mason]

Anonymity, of course. Another thing.

[Sadiq Khan]

Yeah. I think there are real question marks to be asked here. There's a whole different conversation about whether social media is a publisher and the responsibility that brings with it in terms of fact checking. And one of my concerns are the distortions and untruths that can amplify in seconds across the globe. I was at the receiving end of this a couple of years ago when a deep fake was used of me allegedly ordering.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, your voice.

[Sadiq Khan]

The Commissioner.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, one of the first ones as well, that people noticed.

[Sadiq Khan]

Yeah. And so there are many examples of this. So I think that's why it's important for legislators to understand that actually we can't just have free for all sort of Wild west when it comes to social media. We need proper guardrails.

[Adam Fleming]

Just to be clear though, so you're saying the Online Safety act that we've got now and ofcom, that's kind of right as far as it goes. But what do we need we need what bolt ons to the Online Safety act that includes AI and misinformation or some new Online Safety Act 2.0.

[Sadiq Khan]

So my view is this. The Online Safety act was diluted from what was the originally online Safety bill for reasons that we don't need to go into now. I think it should be the floor, not the ceiling and I think it should be kept under constant review. Actually, when you speak to innovators, when you speak to those who are responsible owners of social media, what they want is certainty. They want to know what the rules of the game are. AI has completely transformed this conversation, by the way. By the way, AI on X is just the start of us being exposed to some of the challenges that AI will bring. I want London to be the global capital of innovation. But what people say to me is what would really help us is if we knew what the rules of the game were. And I think this government can take a lead in providing rules of the game, providing certainty, but they need to.

[Adam Fleming]

Get a move on.

[Sadiq Khan]

Spot on.

[Adam Fleming]

What about age limits? So the Kemi Badenok, that Tory leader this weekend, says that social media basically should be banned for under 16 year olds. A little bit more nuanced than that. Do you think that's a good idea?

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, I remember the challenges we had, my wife and I, when our daughters were teenagers. It's just a minefield in relation to what's the right thing to do. You're never sure what is the right age to give your kid a phone? Should it be a brick phone or a phone where you can access the Internet? What do you do about the fact that everyone else in the classroom has got a phone and your child feels like they're missing out? These are really difficult issues to grapple with. I'm curious about what's happening in Australia, because there they've decided to, you know, just stop it. For everyone under the age of 16, the advantage that is to us is we can see about the Australian experience. We can see where the, where the, you know, the traps are, we can see where the benefits are.

[Adam Fleming]

And if it works in Australia, we should do it here.

[Sadiq Khan]

I'm a firm believer in copying well rather than inventing badly.

[Chris Mason]

So you're not quite where your fellow mayor Andy Burnham is, who pretty much endorsed Kemi Badenoch's idea yesterday. You're, let's see what happens down under and then maybe lift it.

[Sadiq Khan]

But I'm not there yet in terms of banning all kids from, you know, having access to a mobile phone and so forth. I do have concerns about what we've seen in the recent past with AI and Grok on X and stuff. And that's why I welcome ofcom's investigation.

[Chris Mason]

Let's talk about the Labor Code.

[Adam Fleming]

I was just gonna say copying. Well, exhibit A.

[Sadiq Khan]

This gets a little monox.

[Chris Mason]

Let's talk about the Labour Party and in particular these elections that are coming up in May. A big set of elections in London, not for you, but for the Labour Party all over London. How do you look ahead to those contests and the challenges that the opinion poll suggests that Labour faces? I mean, pretty much from all directions in different parts of the capital.

[Sadiq Khan]

For those of you listeners who aren't on and viewers who aren't in London, these are all our elections in London. We've got 32 boroughs, just under 2,000 councillors, and all seats are up for grabs.

[Chris Mason]

A big set of elections in the country.

[Sadiq Khan]

We did remarkably well four years ago, during the middle of my second term, we won more than 60% of council seats up for grabs. I know because I was an MP at the time, how difficult council elections are for Labour governments. Midterm elections tend to be very difficult for us. You know, I want voters to vote on these council elections based on the merits of how good a BADA Council is doing. I understand, though, that people will vote and treat it as a referenda on the national government over the course of the next few weeks and months. As challenging as elections are going to be, I want us as Team Labour to be going out to explain the benefits of the Labour government over the last 14, 15 months. From supporting renters, from supporting workers, from supporting parents, from supporting businesses, from supporting those people who are desperate for an appointment with their doctors and so forth. And it's, you know, I'm not going to pretend that it's going to be difficult for labor, but we've got to work hard between now and that first Thursday made to encourage people to lend us their support.

[Chris Mason]

Sounds like a politer analysis than Wes Streeting managed when he talked about the sort of maintenance guys running the country. But it sounds like a critique that says that the government down the road, the UK national government hasn't been good enough at telling its own story.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, I'm not sure it's a question of salesmanship. Look, you don't turn around a country that's been in this perilous state for 14 years and 14 months. It takes time to do so. When I see what the government's done over the last 14, 16 months, yeah, sure. Not perfect but renters have rights they only dreamt of over the last 14, 15 years. Workers have rights we've been talking about for more than a decade. If you're a parent with a young child, you're now getting support with childcare and breakfast clubs. If you live in a family and you're both working as mum and dad and you've got more than two kids, you will now receive support in terms of universal credit and so forth. We've now got trade deals with India, the usa, the European Union and South Korea. And I could go on. And so, look, it's not a question of, you know, the Labour government not doing much in the first 14, 15 months. It's recognizing these are midterms. And in the past, when there's been labor government, we've looked down as well during those midterm council elections.

[Adam Fleming]

I mean, the Prime Minister says that if people were to get rid of him within the party, it would be a disaster. Do you think he's right?

[Sadiq Khan]

I lived through the 2019 general election when, you know, the Labour Party got its worst results since the 1930s. And when Keir Starmer became leader, we were having serious conversations, not just whether we could win a game, whether the party could become extinct within one term. We didn't just win an election, we won a landslide election. So I'd say gently, don't write off Keir Starmer. He's inherited an awful legacy, but I'm confident that we can turn it around.

[Adam Fleming]

You also lived through the Gordon Brown premiership and loads of people wanted to get rid of him. They didn't. And Labour lost then.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, listen, I was at an MP when Tony Blair was Prime minister and Gordon Brown. I think I've had seven since I've been mayor, many of them Tories, by the way. Look, I think obsessing about my reelection.

[Adam Fleming]

Or 7 nil, that's quite a good.

[Chris Mason]

Record actually, isn't it?

[Sadiq Khan]

I think obsessing about a general election or a mayoral election when you're the candidate is indulgence. Your focus should be delivering for the country, addressing the cost of living crisis, addressing the crisis in the public services, addressing the NHS issue, addressing the housing issue and so forth, that should be a focus. And from what I've seen this year, that's what the Prime Minister's focus about.

[Chris Mason]

Europe, you just pushed by it there when you were talking about trade deals we've seen bursting out in public in the last few weeks and months, the Labour Party collectively asking itself what a better relationship with the European Union might Be from those who've advocated rejoining the Customs Union to the Prime Minister in the last week or so talking about strengthening ties to the single market, albeit without rejoining it. We know where you've been in the past on this question. Articulating an argument on behalf of London. How do you, how do you dissect that conversation that's going on within the Labour Party and where should the party be trying to get to?

[Sadiq Khan]

I respect the results of the referendum. I think leaving the European Union was the biggest act of economic self harm any country's ever done. The European Union. Not just our nearest neighbors, they're our closest trading partners. Biggest trading partners.

[Chris Mason]

So where do we go now in your view?

[Sadiq Khan]

I think we need even closer alignment with the European Union Union. I welcome the progress made with a youth mobility scheme. I welcome the trade deal we've now got with the European Union. We need even closer alignment. When I speak to business in London, most of our business are the service sector rather than goods. But yeah, I think we should be having close alignment.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

To a customs Union.

[Sadiq Khan]

Well, we've got to look at the impact it'll have on the US trade deal and the India trade deal. Yes and no. Don't assume just because we have close alignment with the European Union, whether it's parts of the custom union or the custom union or parts of the single market or single market, we get the same deal as other countries as well. I understand the reason why people are against free movement of people. I understand that some people explain the Brexit vote as a proxy on migration. That's all well and good. That shouldn't mean that we're not looking to close alignment. And that's why I think it's really important to welcome the fact that Prime Minister Keir Starmer is on far, far better terms with the Chancellor of Germany, the President of France, the President of the European Union than any Prime Minister in recent past.

[Chris Mason]

So in essence you, in terms of alignment would take whatever you could get to get the UK closer to the EU within the red line that you said around freedom of movement.

[Sadiq Khan]

Yeah, but obviously it's all a negotiation. I think the yen should be a closer alignment. It's got to be in the best interest of, of the uk, both economically and culturally and by the way, socially as well.

[Adam Fleming]

This has taken me back to discussions about passporting for financial services. Those happy days. Mr. Mayor, thank you very much.

[Sadiq Khan]

Always a pleasure.

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[Adam Fleming]

So Sadiq Khan has left the room. The air conditioning is still going on and off as we speak. What was your take on what he had to say?

[Chris Mason]

I think he's very aware, isn't he? Well, two things. One, a wider back to where we started this episode. A wider sort of national thing that says that people it is fashionable and it has been for the last 10, 20 years. I think for people to talk up their sort of out of London credentials. We do it as Broadcasters, you know, oh, we mustn't be seen to be London centric. Let's go to X, Y or Z. And that is a laudable thing to do. I would say that, wouldn't I? Because I tried to do quite a lot of it. But that sort of reminder of London's scale, reminder of brand London on the international stage and how that, if you like, bleeds into people's perceptions of. Of the UK and then certainly from the mayor's perspective, that sense of injustice that he sees, a narrative that is out there with people with big megaphones, not least the President of the United States, making an argument about a city they don't really know or understand. And here is the. The mayor who's been very electorally successful in winning mayoral contests here in London, pointing to stats that says, look, hang on a minute. Certainly when you look at, you know, murders and knife crime and whatever, there's a very powerful counter argument to make.

[Adam Fleming]

He was pretty loyal to the Labour leadership.

[Chris Mason]

He was, yes, he was. I think a recognition in those exchanges about the elections coming up in London in May that they're gonna be pretty bleak for Labour. You had to read the subtext to get to that. But I think that's pretty clear within Labour circles. They're coming from a very high bar. I think it's gonna be really interesting after the elections in May is the extent to which how Labour perform in London could be quite outsized. Because, yes, there'll be an interest, Wales, huge interest in Wales and indeed in Scotland and elsewhere in England. But London at sort of every level is kind of a Labour city. Most of the MPs in London, vast majority of the MPs in London are Labour. So many of the councils are Labour and sometimes with absolutely colossal majorities. And so how London Labour. Oh, and loads of Labour members are in London, a disproportionate number. So how London Labour reacts to the elections in May and their aftermath could be really key in all of the questions about the Prime Minister's future, the government's direction, et cetera, et cetera.

[Adam Fleming]

And it just seems to me when it comes to social media and technology, if there's any evidence, even quite early evidence, that the Australian social media ban for under 16s works, so many politicians in Britain will leap on that and push for it to happen here. And that could happen quite quickly.

[Chris Mason]

I think that's right. On a human level, I was really struck by the Mayor's opening sort of salvo in response to that question where he said he really likes social media and the value that it brings, even though he gets so much grief, because the grief, and not just grief, it's worse than abuse, abuse, horrific racist abuse over and over again pretty much every single day would, on a human level, make plenty of people think that, you know, you should turn off social media within the next five minutes. And five minutes is four minutes, 59 seconds too long. And yet that opening gambit about the, the kind of power of it as a, as a tool, just on a human level kind of struck me. But leaving open the space for him to move to where Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, is in endorsing the Kemi Badenok idea that you have restrictions for teenagers, you know, under 16s, that takes them off social media entirely.

[Adam Fleming]

And while we were here at City hall, which has moved from its old location, it used to be by Tower Bridge, a bit more central, it's now out in kind of Docklands next to the XL Centre, where there's lots of big events and also where the famous infamous cable car is about two miles west from here. Nigel Farage, reform leader, was doing his regular Monday morning morning news conference and he unveiled another Conservative defector who was.

[Chris Mason]

Or is, is it was the Chancellor of the Exchequer briefly and is Nadeem Zahawi, long standing Conservative minister, was a big noise during the pandemic in as far as the rolling out of the vaccines were concerned and is a big scalp for reform. You know, the golden rule of defections is the party that gets the defector wears a broad smile. The party that loses the person usually slags them off on the way out the door and says it's proof that, you know, there's. Well, I mean, the Conservative response is one of talking about how many Conservatives have gone to reform, which is a bit of a, if you like, a nice problem for reform to have around people saying, are you just a home for former Conservatives? But then if you are the recipient of people who are heading in your direction, that is broadly, you know, net positive. One thing that stands out for me, Adam, is that whilst we've seen all of the swirl of stuff about what Nigel Farage said or didn't say when he was at school best part of half a century ago. And there's been another run at this from the Guardian in the last few days, we've now had two consecutive weeks where reform have done news conferences, where the, the star, if you like, in inverted commas of the news conference was a senior reform figure with a minority ethnic background. So Leyla Cunningham, the person Reform will set up as a challenger in the next London mayoral contest, maybe against Sir Sadiq or not. He's not yet committing to whether he's going to run again. And then this week, Nad Zahawi, which I just think is. I just think that is interesting against a, you know, a vulnerable spot in terms of people's perceptions of reform, to put it as it's more at its most gentle.

[Adam Fleming]

I've just got two observations about it. One is about reform itself and one is about reform's relationship with the voters. So with voters, do people see Nadeem Zahawi as, oh, a very experienced person from who's been in government and knows lots of government departments and is clearly a grown up. Or do they see then dim Zahawi whose political career ended cause he didn't pay the right amount of tax and was in a massive dispute with the taxman and he got fired because of it.

[Chris Mason]

Indeed. And of course two things can be true at the same time, and in this instance that both of those are part of his biography and for different.

[Adam Fleming]

Groups of people who might react to it differently. And then the second thing about just within Reform, remember one of the previous defections was Danny Kruger, who was brought in with the job of getting reform ready for government and thinking about how do you run government departments, how do you make government policy into reform policy into government policy? I wonder if Nadim Zahawi will feel he's quite an expert in that too. And that sets up perhaps a bit of a struggle between those two or maybe they'll get on famously.

[Chris Mason]

So the thing that fascinates me and full disclosure was re record because we've been hearing, talking here, talking to the Mayor of London and I was doing something else this morning. I've not yet listened to the news conference with Nigel Farage and Nadim Zahawi. But the first thing that came to mind for me and remains a live question, whatever he said or didn't say in the news conference, which newscasters may have heard by the time you're listening to this, is to what use do Reform put Nadeem Zahawi? Because Reform acknowledge, because it's true, that the massive challenge they face as they aspire to be a party of government starting from square one, is can they assemble the personnel and the infrastructure and the skill set of a potential alternative government? That is a massive ask of any party. It's a colossal ask of a party of reforms. Relative size at the moment and youth and people like Nadeem Zahawi with a career and CV like his could potentially, if they're up for it and can put in the time and they don't fall out with people who are already there, et cetera, et cetera, be hugely useful alongside, frankly, plenty of others, as Nigel Farage acknowledges. So for me, beyond the blast of headlines today around. Ooh, oh, look who reform have recruited now, the real question is, to what use can they put in?

[Adam Fleming]

Chris, thank you very much. That's all for this episode of Newscast, which came to you from City hall in London. We're in a meeting room by the atrium and we've now got to creep past about 120 people from the Housing Department who are having an away day. So maybe we'll be able to get some scoops on house building in London as we head for the exit, or.

[Chris Mason]

Actually just annoy them as we clatter past with all our kids. Kids. Oh, I've just knocked me water over.

[Adam Fleming]

I know Chris has managed to just trash City hall, so I think we should definitely get out of here. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with another newscast very soon. Bye.

[Chris Mason]

Anyone got any paper towels?

[Sadiq Khan]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Outro Narrator]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on 440-3301-239480. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone.

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If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen, on BBC or wherever you get your podcasts.