The Starmer-Burnham Defence Handover

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Newscast – "The Starmer-Burnham Defence Handover"

Date: June 28, 2026
Hosts: Paddy O’Connell, Victoria Macdonald, Henry Mance

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Overview

This episode of Newscast dives into the political drama surrounding the rapid transition of UK Labour leadership from Keir Starmer to Andy Burnham, focusing on the high-stakes handover of defence policy and spending. The panel unpacks how recent events—including high-profile resignations and urgent defence spending commitments—will shape the Burnham administration’s early days, amidst the backdrop of war in Ukraine and ongoing domestic political turbulence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rachel Reeves in Ukraine: The Chess Photo Op

Timestamp: 01:18–02:39

• The show opens with a discussion of a photo showing outgoing Chancellor Rachel Reeves playing chess in Kyiv, which is symbolic both of her support for Ukraine and the intricacies of her political position as she prepares to exit the Treasury.
• Hosts highlight the significance of her "valedictory" tone and speculate on her future role under Andy Burnham.
• Quote: “There is a certain quality to everything she does at the moment of a kind of valedictory tone.” — Henry Mance [01:55]

2. Defence Investment Plan: A Handover at a Critical Moment

Timestamp: 03:31–05:45

• Keir Starmer is set to publish a long-overdue Defence Investment Plan in the days before the NATO summit.
• Initially anticipated to be a contentious issue between Starmer and Burnham, reports now indicate Burnham has signed off on this plan after briefings.
• Analysis centers on whether Burnham’s endorsement is full or just a provisional agreement, and the likelihood that the new PM might seek further increases in defence spending.

3. Military Perspective: The 'Moscow Test' and UK’s NATO Profile

Timestamp: 05:45–06:31

• Former Chief of the Defence Staff, Sir Tony Radakin, calls for the incoming PM to “keep our country safe” and invest in what matters for security.
• The panel discusses how the UK is perceived by Moscow, NATO, and the US, emphasizing the importance of strong alliances and maintaining the UK’s nuclear deterrence.
• Quote: “Do we look like a strong member of the NATO alliance? ... Because those are the elements that keep us safe.” — Henry Mance [06:17–06:28]

4. Defence Secretary Resignation: Catalyst for Starmer's Fall

Timestamp: 06:55–08:05

• John Healey’s resignation as Defence Secretary—due to insufficient funding—signalled a tipping point in Starmer’s premiership, undermining his credibility on national security.
• Dan Jarvis, his replacement, has secured more funding, with a notable pivot in investment towards future weapons (e.g., drones).

5. Labour Defence Policy & Policy Continuity on Ukraine

Timestamp: 09:46–11:54

• Despite leadership change and turbulence, all parties signal unwavering support for Ukraine.
• Steve Reed, Housing Secretary, stresses that the UK has already met and is exceeding the defence spending target (2.5% of GDP), with the promise of further increases.
• Both major parties and much of Labour are in consensus on backing Ukraine.

6. Early Burnham Government: Cabinet Jockeying and Gender Dynamics

Timestamp: 12:15–13:47

• Speculation about Burnham’s cabinet: could Ed Miliband be Chancellor and David Miliband Foreign Secretary? Some see this as plausible.
• Concerns are raised over the perceived “retro” and "blokey" makeup of the likely cabinet, with familiar faces from the New Labour era.
• Quote: “Is it starting to feel a bit retro and is it starting to feel a bit blokey?” — Henry Mance [13:15]

7. Ministerial Reshuffles and Battle for Continuity or Change

Timestamp: 13:47–16:00

• Debate whether keeping Yvette Cooper at Foreign Secretary would add stability amid frequent turnover, versus a new figure with fresh clout.
• Discussion on Burnham’s priorities: team-building, assembling a respected advisory group (including Andy Haldane and Lord O’Neill), and balancing signals to markets and voters.

8. Public Mood and Style: Smiles & Hope after Gloom

Timestamp: 17:16–19:12

• The show highlights the more affable style Andy Burnham brings, contrasted with Starmer’s “gloomy” admission that times would get harder before they improve.
• Burnham’s use of the word “hope” and his popular touch are viewed as timely, given the nation's mood.

9. Early General Election? Risk and Precedent

Timestamp: 19:31–21:00

• Discussions over whether Burnham might seek a quick mandate via general election, weighing historical precedents (Brown’s caution, May’s disaster) and political risks.
• A consensus seems to have emerged that Britain’s parliamentary system allows such transitions without immediate elections, despite ongoing calls from Reform and other critics.

10. Rachel Reeves’ Next Move and Cabinet Reshuffles

Timestamp: 21:05–23:25

• Rachel Reeves is not expected to remain Chancellor under Burnham, and may not accept a demotion—an unusual move for a former Chancellor.
• The group considers her public signals and continued ambitions, pondering whether Burnham might keep her in a significant role.

11. Cabinet Jockeying and Policy Timelines

Timestamp: 23:25–24:05

• Ministers are openly jockeying for positions—new portfolios will mean learning curves and delays, but Burnham seems keen to signal change.

12. Football, Politics, and the Summer Timetable

Timestamp: 24:05–29:29

• Light-hearted discussion about the overlap of major national events: England’s football matches, the handover of Premiership, and the quirks of the parliamentary schedule.
• Burnham will take office during the summer recess, delaying his first Commons appearance as PM but possibly giving him time to travel the country and make direct public appeals.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "There is a certain quality to everything she does at the moment of a kind of valedictory tone." — Henry Mance on Rachel Reeves [01:55]
• "Do we look like a strong member of the NATO alliance? ... Because those are the elements that keep us safe." — Henry Mance [06:17–06:28]
• "Is it starting to feel a bit retro and is it starting to feel a bit blokey?" — Henry Mance on Labour’s prospective cabinet [13:15]
• "The question is not going to be whether he looks like he’s having fun, it's whether people feel like they’re having better lives." — Henry Mance on Burnham’s leadership [18:48]
• "This is … a tricky balancing act, isn’t it? You want to go, hi, I’m still here, I’ve built some houses." — Victoria Macdonald regarding ministers seeking to keep their posts [22:59]
• "You’re going from running buses to having the nuclear ..." — Paddy O’Connell on Burnham’s leap from local to national leadership [17:30]

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:18–02:39 | Rachel Reeves’s chess photo in Kyiv and the symbolism of her last days as Chancellor | | 03:31–05:45 | Defence Investment Plan, Labour handover, and Burnham’s likely sign-off | | 05:45–06:31 | Sir Tony Radakin’s advice on security and the “Moscow Test” | | 06:55–08:05 | John Healey’s resignation, military funding shortfalls, and impact on Starmer | | 09:46–11:54 | Labour’s stance on Ukraine and defence, Steve Reed’s comments, party consensus | | 12:15–13:47 | Cabinet speculation, Miliband brothers, concerns about “retro” male-dominated lineup | | 17:16–19:12 | Burnham’s public warmth, smiles in Parliament, importance of hope in national mood | | 19:31–21:00 | Possibility of an early general election | | 21:05–23:25 | Rachel Reeves’s position and the broader cabinet reshuffling underway | | 24:05–29:29 | Football, the PM’s timetable, and quirky handover logistics during Parliament recess |

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Thematic Summary

Political Transition:
The episode captures a rare moment of relative consensus on international policy (especially Ukraine), even as domestic political change accelerates. The departure of Starmer and the swift ascension of Burnham are seen both as a product of political necessity (after damaging resignations and internal unrest) and as a chance for Labour to reboot with both fresh faces and some familiar veterans.

Defence Spending and Priorities:
Urgency in defence policy dominates the discussion, with the handover of a landmark spending plan and clear signals that addressing military underinvestment—especially in new technology like drones—remains a top priority. The panel sees this as an immediate challenge and opportunity for Burnham’s new government.

Unanswered Questions and Cabinet Moves:
Despite a sense of “business as usual” on Ukraine, major questions linger about the composition and ideology of Burnham’s cabinet, especially regarding continuity, gender balance, and the influence of “New Labour” alumni.

Mood Shift:
Burnham’s approach—more affable, focused on “hope,” and visibly enjoying politics—is presented as a possible antidote to the ennui and uncertainty of recent years.

Looking Forward:
Listeners are left primed for Burnham’s first major speech, the release of the Defence Investment Plan, and months of political maneuvering as the new PM’s government takes shape over a Parliament-less summer.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

If you haven’t been following every detail of the UK’s political upheaval, this episode provides a clear, conversational, and highly informed overview of why the Starmer-Burnham handover matters—not just for Westminster insiders, but for Britain’s outlook on security, economic stability, and public sentiment at a critical time.

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Transcript

[Paddy O'Connell]

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[David Smith]

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[Victoria Macdonald]

Henry, Paddy, can either of you play chess?

[Henry Mance]

I'm aware of the rules, but beyond that, no, absolutely not.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's such a political answer.

[Henry Mance]

Sorry, I mean, as in I can play. I could play against you, but you'd beat me very quickly. Assuming you'd good, which I suspect.

[Paddy O'Connell]

No, I'm not. I can play drafts. But this is. We're asking because we're looking at a picture of the current Chancellor of the Exchequer in Kyiv playing chess where it's a massive outdoor pastime.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Yes. Somewhere in the capital of Ukraine. She is having a game of chess. We know that she's good at chess. She's talked about it before. She was some kind of champion at some point in her teenage years. And this photograph was taken yesterday. What is going on, Henry?

[Henry Mance]

So I think Rachel Reeves is in Ukraine trying to demonstrate the support that she has given the government has given while she's been in control of the public finances for the past two years to the Ukrainian war effort. It is an absolutely brilliant photo by the absolutely brilliant Stefan Russo, Pennsylvania's main political photographer. But look, it is also has a particular quality to it, doesn't it? Because we know that Rachel Reeves is headed out of the treasury and you know, there is a certain quality to everything she does at the moment of a kind of valedictory tone. We don't know what job she might end up in under Andy Burnham, if anything. But, you know, it is a choice to do this in her final few weeks and it's produced this great photo

[Paddy O'Connell]

and she's there to commit UK money to Ukraine. And we'll talk about the defence investment plan in Sunday's newscast.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[Henry Mance]

I will resign as leader of the Labour Party.

[Victoria Macdonald]

And what will you do?

[Henry Mance]

Stare at a wall? Humanity's next great voyage begins. You know, I like my boss. I'll come on to them.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's supposed to be me as a doctor.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Ooh la la.

[Henry Mance]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Do we play music now or what do we do? Hello, it's Paddy in the studio.

[Victoria Macdonald]

It's Victoria in the studio.

[Henry Mance]

And it's Henry also in the studio.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We like it when you come in, although we also like hearing Henry at home. Just for those of us who like that sort of thing.

[Henry Mance]

Well, when the heat wave's over, I'll be back there.

[Paddy O'Connell]

His hot flat has brought him in, but it's also hot week for the politics. Do you know, seven days ago, Keir Starmer hadn't resigned?

[Victoria Macdonald]

It just seems bizarre. It feels like about six months ago. Or is it just because it's kind of unremarkable now and we just get used to these things?

[Henry Mance]

I think what's been so weird about this week, actually, is that Keir Starmer resigned on Monday. And when we were talking last week, Paddy, we sort of thought that was coming. But by Monday, early afternoon, we basically knew what was gonna happen next. We knew that Andy Burnham was almost certain to succeed him. And I think the speed at which the second part of the story was wrapped up has made it quite a strange week, because it means that in news terms, we're talking about who might be in his Cabinet, we're talking about what he might do. You know, ordinarily, and we. There is kind of an ordinary pattern to transitions now because we've had so many of them in the last few years, it takes a little while longer. Party members might be consulted. That clearly isn't happening this time. And it has made it, you know, a strange week, hasn't it?

[Victoria Macdonald]

Despite all that, though, Keir Starmer is going to publish his defence investment plan this week. It was due in autumn last year. We're expecting it Tuesday. And that will be ahead of the NATO summit, which is early next month.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And so we had thought this was going to be a stushy between the outgoing Keir Starmer and the incoming Andy Burnham, because it's a billion pounds, they Found down the back of the sofa, it looks like. But the Sunday Times reports today, I think it is, that it looks like Andy Burnham signed it off after a briefing in Whitehall. Do you know about this?

[Henry Mance]

Not beyond their report, but I mean, it would have been weird if he hadn't been brought into the conversations, at least to some degree. And that reflects the reality that he is going to be the next Prime Minister. I mean, I think what we'll need to report out over the next few days is there's a difference between getting a sort of very high level briefing and endorsing the entire contents of it. So it's entirely possible that Andy Burnham says, yeah, that sounds okay. I'm pleased you found a bit more money. Since John Healey resigned, that's the billion pounds to which you referred. The government has come up with a little bit more money, but way short of the amount that John Healey said was needed before he quit as Defense Secretary. But look, I think it's still entirely possible that within a few weeks of becoming Prime Minister, Andy Burnham and whoever his Defence Secretary is might want to demonstrate that they want to go even further and add several billion pounds more. But of course, that then would require some pretty difficult decisions about where else to spend money, or rather not spend money.

[Victoria Macdonald]

And Sir Tony Radekin, former Chief of the Defence Staff, was on Laura's show this morning.

[Chris Mason]

If you had one line of advice for the incoming Prime Minister, what would it be?

[David Smith]

It is keep our country safe. Acknowledge that you have this extraordinary responsibility.

[Henry Mance]

So you're almost like a wartime Prime

[David Smith]

Minister at the moment.

[Henry Mance]

And that means you need to invest

[David Smith]

in what really keeps us safe.

[Henry Mance]

So as well as having the make

[David Smith]

a field test, I would say it's the Moscow test.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So what do we look like to Moscow?

[Henry Mance]

Do we look like a strong member of the NATO alliance? Do we look like a strong nuclear power?

[David Smith]

Do we look like a strong ally of America?

[Henry Mance]

Because those are the elements that keep us safe.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes. So one of the Sunday sums this up as drones, not destroyers, that although the military always asks for more money, there's been this consensus from military chiefs for months warning that we're underfunded. Then John Healey went because he didn't see enough investment as promised, he said by Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves. Dan Jarvis, the new Defense Secretary, has now got more money than the outgoing John Healey had. That's actually really happened.

[Henry Mance]

Yeah, and I think it reflects that the resignation of John Healey was such a significant moment. Look, I think Keir Starmer's position, as we've been reflecting on newscasts for a while, was already very precarious. But I suspect that once the books come to be written on this period, John Healey resigning as Defense Secretary a few weeks ago and saying Keir Starmer wasn't giving enough money for defense was perhaps the final nail.

[Paddy O'Connell]

He was unable. And he was unable to get it, wasn't he?

[Henry Mance]

Well, John Healey was unable to get that extra money, yes. But I think it also meant that it was that much harder for Keir Starmer to make an argument that as Prime Minister, one of the things he'd got right was protecting the UK was spending the money that needed to be spent on defense and so on. But look, yes, I think it sounds like Dan Jarvis, who replaced John Healey and actually quite a lot of Labour mps were surprised that he took that job. That anyone took that job in those circumstances does seem to have got a bit more money. The other thing that we understand is that he seems to have tweaked the contents of the defence investment plan a bit more towards weapons of the future, a bit more towards those drones rather than to other, you know, other perhaps more traditional items of defence spending, which

[Victoria Macdonald]

is what Al Khan, once he resigned as Armed Forces Minister, was saying. He didn't feel happy about. He wasn't involved in the funding bit, but he, he, he felt the focus wasn't quite right. So this might be the sort of thing, I suppose, that satisfies him.

[Paddy O'Connell]

It's intriguing because Al K career was in the Royal Marines. But also if you zoom right out, the dip was sort of, as you say, fired the starting gun on Keir Starmer's own resignation. Now it's come back as a bridge between the two Prime Ministers, between the two Labour Prime Ministers. And our guest today from the Times, Patrick Maguire, said, you can rest assured the MOD is going to come back and ask for more money. So Andy Burnham is going to be faced with demands for more money early in his time as Prime Minister.

[Henry Mance]

Look, and it's one of the many things that we haven't heard Andy Burnham speak that much about, understandably, given that he has been running a local by election campaign for the last several weeks and running a city combined authority in Greater Manchester before that, though, you know, Victoria, among others, managed to tempt Andy Burnham slightly onto national issues during that by election campaign. But look, I think there are a lot of unanswered questions about the extent to which he believes defense spending needs to rise. The things that he might be willing to spend less on in order to spend more on defense. And perhaps we'll learn a little more from Andy Burnham's first big national political intervention for a long time tomorrow when he gives a speech, essentially his first speech as presumptive prime minister, which is going to focus on the economy. Though I think it's more about the economy and regional growth and evolution than it is about issues like this. But let's see.

[Victoria Macdonald]

And in the meantime, the Housing Secretary, he is still the Housing Secretary. Steve Reid was on Laura's show and this is what he had to say about defence spending.

[Steve Reed]

We came into office committed to reaching 2.5% of GDP as our defence spend by the end of this Parliament, and we've exceeded it already. And the announcements that the Prime Minister will make linked to the defence investment plan will go even beyond that figure. Now, of course, we all see the threat that Russia in particular, but not only Russia, poses to our country. We see the changing nature of that threat with cyber attacks and new forms of attack. We're working very, very closely with the Ukrainians and the way that they have transformed their ability to defend themselves against Russia. So we need to learn from all of that and make sure that is applied to how we spend that, that money. But the bottom line here is defending this country is the first responsibility of any government and this government will keep the UK safe.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes, although there was a resignation of the Defense Secretary over how much money you're going to spend. And also one of the other standout factors, few years is although there has been all this turmoil within the Conservative Party and in fact on the British right, and so much turmoil within the Labour Party. And now, of course, there's a new party on the left. There was almost a handover of policy on Ukraine from the Conservatives to Labour. And we've discussed this before, you look for primary colors because everything else is so confusing in our politics. But on the question of backing President Zelenskyy and backing it with British bucks, we have done it and we have trained thousands and thousands of Ukrainian forces. And we're now learning then on what to do with drone construction, which links to how we might spend our money. So if we are searching for certainties in this time, Henry, Ukraine, actually, funnily enough, in all the political churn, is one of them.

[Steve Reed]

Yeah.

[Henry Mance]

And there's a near total political consensus within the Labour Party on how they should approach Ukraine. So I would not expect any deviation from Andy Burnham and whoever is his Foreign secretary. Still rumors, by the way, as we, I think, first Brought newscasters this time last week that that could be Lauderdale. David Miliband, as he would become, in order to become Foreign Secretary.

[Paddy O'Connell]

We must talk about this.

[Henry Mance]

But look, I would expect complete continuity, but continuity of ambition to support Ukraine as much as the Government can doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the detail of what Andy Burnham's Chancellor would be willing to commit when there are all sorts of domestic priorities as well.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I ask, could it be that Ed Miliband is Chancellor of the Exchequer and David Lord Miliband is Foreign Secretary, could that actually happen?

[Henry Mance]

There are people I've been speaking to all week who think not only could that happen, but it's quite plausible. But there is another concern that people, including allies of Andy Burnham, I mean, everyone in the Labour Party now sees themselves as an ally of Andy Burnham, but actual allies of Andy Burnham Express, which is. Hang on a second. Andy Burnham is a man, obviously. And Vic asked Lucy Powell why the Labour leader is yet again set to be a man. They've never had a female leader in their 120 odd year history. He's a man who was last prominent in national politics, last in the Cabinet in the late New Labour period. Ditto both Milibands. Obviously. Ed Miliband's been in the Cabinet the last couple of years as Energy Secretary. Andy Burnham appointed as his Chief of Staff. Prospective Chief of Staff this week, James Pernell, another man who played in the same football team as all of them back in the New Labour period.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Is this.

[Henry Mance]

Well, is it starting to feel a bit retro and is it starting to feel a bit blokey? Those are questions that you are hearing labor mps ask. And so I wouldn't at all be surprised if, in order to counterbalance that to some extent, Lucy Powell, who Vic spoke to today, who is already the Deputy leader of the Labour Party, could become the Deputy Prime Minister, which she currently isn't. David Lammy is. But I think that is something. As this Cabinet gets formed in private, but with all sorts of briefings and leaks over the next few weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if those are questions you hear asked more and more.

[Victoria Macdonald]

What just put yourself into the mind of whoever the new Prime Minister will be. Why would you move Yvette Cooper from Foreign Secretary just to have your own people in there?

[Henry Mance]

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of people who are saying, given the churn in Foreign Secretaries in the past decade, which I think exceeds the churn in Prime Ministers, it would make sense to leave someone there who already has the relationships. And Yvette Cooper, she hasn't been Foreign Secretary that long, but of course, she has spent the last 10 months or so building up those relationships. So I think that is very plausible. Of course, she is another figure from the last few years of New labor, so she knows Andy Burnham well and vice versa. But, no, I think that is certainly possible. The case being made for a figure from kind of outside current electoral politics as Foreign Secretary is that Andy Burnham wants to, as far as he can avoid getting sucked into spending so much time on foreign policy as Keir Starmer did. Now, partly that's up to the world, not up to the UK Prime Minister. But how do you do that? Well, the model that some look to is when Dave, when Rishi Sunak made David Cameron his Foreign secretary, and being a former Prime Minister, he had the clout to just do stuff that otherwise prime ministers would have to do. Of course, David Miller wasn't Prime Minister, but he was Foreign Secretary for three years and then has spent the last decade or more perhaps running a big ngo. So has various of those relationships and

[Paddy O'Connell]

has met everyone, really, around the world already. I think the thing is everyone has now agreed, say everyone, newscasters, listeners to Radio 4, most of them would agree with the statement that Keir Starmer appeared unprepared for government. Now, I'm not making that as my own judgment. I'm saying that is what people generally now say. And we are now looking at a situation where Andy Burnham has got weeks to come up with a plan, with people, with a program. And it looks to me like the real time he's been spending is on team building. You mentioned how they were, some of them played in the same football team. I think he's been spending his time trying to get names, names, names on the doors. He wants to come to the world and say, look at all these people I've got. And that's also clear in the way that he's letting it know who's advising him on the economy. And that links to the big speech tomorrow on Monday.

[Henry Mance]

Yeah, that's right. And some of those advisors, Andy Haldane, former chief economist of the bank of England, Lord o', Neill, Jim o', Neill, who was actually a Treasury minister under George Osborne for a period of time, although I don't think he was ever a Conservative. But those are distinguished figures who are designed, I think, to reassure the bond markets, who Andy Burnham famously said the UK needed to stop being in hock to. I mean, on the transition point, I think what we're going to have a test of here is whether the issue with Keir Starmer and his preparations was time or himself, essentially ism, the lack of an ism. Because Keir Starmer was leader of the Labour Party for 2020. Right. Exactly as four years, more than four years before he became Prime Minister. So he had plenty of time prepare for government. And there is a widespread admission now across the Labour Party that they weren't prepared. But perhaps the issue was the lack of a governing ideology with Andy Burnham. Perhaps it may well be okay, he only has a few weeks, but he has Manchesterism combined with his own ministerial experience, which, of course, Keir Starmer didn't have. And perhaps that clearer sense of purpose will mean that the three weeks is plenty. I think that is the sort of essay question that we're going to see answered over the coming weeks, months and years.

[Victoria Macdonald]

But whatever expectations from those who support Labour or who want to see Andy Burnham be a successful Prime Minister, the expectations are up there. I mean, I just. Can. Can anyone taking over that job match the expectations? I just. I'm not sure.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, because the scrutiny that comes is, you know, you're going from running buses to having the nuclear. Yes and no. And it seems to me that you were one of the journalists, as you often are, who was in the thick of it when he replied, I don't want to be tested on the fiscal rules. Well, guess what, Andy Burnham, you're about to be tested on the fiscal rules every time you walk out of the door, every time you walk into the door. That's your job now. But I will say this in answer to the question which I raised about preparedness. It is one of the first genuine broad smiles I've seen in the Commons for a very long time that you do see smiles. Kemi Badenot gets a lot of her side laughing as well. And she's smiling. But actually, when he took his oath of office and someone shouted to him, not the. And he shouted back, I'm a naughty boy. It was like a return to me to the sort of feeling that there was a few years ago when there was sort of more affability and the smile. I thought, there's this cultism around him, but it was a genuine smile.

[Victoria Macdonald]

But can I just say to younger newscasters, just search at Life of Brian on YouTube because they will have no idea what's going on.

[Henry Mance]

Brilliant film. Monty Python fan. Suits me.

[Victoria Macdonald]

And my book, very, very funny.

[Henry Mance]

Very funny. I think it's on, actually. We shouldn't advertise rival services, but it's on a Rival streaming service at the moment, I believe.

[Paddy O'Connell]

But it's that sort of warmth where one of the rivals says, does a set up line.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Yeah, yeah, ye, absolutely. And he just taps it in.

[Henry Mance]

He looks like he's having fun.

[Paddy O'Connell]

That's what I mean.

[Henry Mance]

He looks like he enjoys politics and I think that probably is a very important quality in a time of national gloom. Keir Starmer himself has admitted that he thinks he made a big mistake when early on he said, things are going to get worse before they get better. I don't think Andy Burnham is going to repeat that mistake. But look, ultimately the, the question is not going to be whether he looks like he's having fun, it's whether people feel like they're having better lives.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And he's already nailed the word host Hope in Makerfield. He says, let's give people hope. Another person who is enjoying herself, I think is Kemi Badenok and I think, you know, what will the rival parties make of this time? Do you think we can predict a whole period when we're going to be hearing general election calls?

[Victoria Macdonald]

Well, then it would be Bren. Well, there are already, already calls for a general election, but what's the name? Brenda from Bristol. Not another one. I mean, it would be, I mean, I don't know, business would, would not necessarily be very pleased because it means more uncertainty people put off, you know, making investments, et cetera, et cetera. But there are some who are suggesting that Andy Burnham, if there is some kind of bounce in the polls, he could be super audacious, go to the country, get his own mandate. It might mean he might lose some Labour mps. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've no idea if he's going to be bold in that respect.

[Henry Mance]

Well, the thing is we now have both sides of the argument have been demonstrated in the last 20 years. You know, Gordon Brown didn't call that early election and Andy Burnham was in his cabinet at the time and perhaps always regretted it. But then almost a decade on from that, Theresa May did go for the early election and boy, did she end up regretting that. So, look, we don't know. I think it's really interesting though that, you know, the Conservatives haven't called for an early election and James cleverly said to Vic earlier, well, look, I didn't call for one when we kept changing leader and you know, I think, I think that's a fair point from him. But you know, you also had Lucy Powell saying, look, we're a parliamentary democracy. This is, this is how our system works. Of Course, that's not what Labour was saying when the Conservatives change lead, but I think we probably do now have a consensus from both parties, having both done it in recent memory, that this is our system, this is a parliamentary democracy. However presidential, a general election campaign feels

[Victoria Macdonald]

reform is calling for a snap general election.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Can I go back to where we started?

[Victoria Macdonald]

Of course.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Which is the figure of Rachel Reeves. I do find it all absolutely fascinating, her gameplay when we started talking about chess, because as Kemi Baked not pointed out to some criticism before of her tone, incidentally, which we haven't covered on newscast today, but is out there very actively is Rachel Reeves did not attend Keir Starmer's resignation speech in Downing street, but was in the group selfie with Andy Burnham. She has made it plain that she. It's up to him to decide what happens with her job, but implying her work is still to be done. She's being photographed in Kyiv. We explained why. What can you predict for us for Rachel Reeves?

[Henry Mance]

Look, I can predict she's not going to be the Chancellor under Andy Burnham. I mean, look, he ran a campaign on change. It was never plausible that he would keep the same economic figurehead in place. Beyond that, I don't know. I think it's very hard to know. She's been a massive figure in the Labour Party. I know it sounds obvious, but we should just stress it for six years now, working out what Labour's economic offer should look like in this time of global economic turmoil. If she does get offered another Cabinet job, I think we should just stress how unusual that is, actually, for a Chancellor. You have to go back to 1983 to find a Chancellor who was demoted to a more junior Cabinet position, rather than just leaving, because it's such a big job that you end up doing that and then leaving the Cabinet or becoming Prime Minister. And in that case, by the way, in 1983, Jeffrey Howe became Foreign Secretary. Not sure Rachel Reeves is going to get a job that big. So it's going to be really interesting to see what she does next, because

[Paddy O'Connell]

I think she's flashing her headlights at Andy Burnham because she's. She's not she. Because she so linked with Keir Starmer, but now she's so linked with respect for Andy Burnham in her public statement and in her warehouse, and also linked

[Victoria Macdonald]

with the bond markets as well.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So let's say he keeps her. She does a deal to stay, and then there's another woman in the Cabinet, which she seems to have been having trouble with as well. So there's Lots of reasons why he might want her.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Steve Reed as Housing Secretary on Laura's show this morning. I mean, in a kind of unenviable position, wanting to, you know, talk about a debt of gratitude to Keir Starmer, who he has been loyal to, but also clearly wanting to keep his job as Housing Secretary and saying how much he supports Andy Burnham. I mean, it's. Yeah, again, it's small violins, but it is a, it is a tricky balancing act, isn't it? You want to go, hi, I'm still here, I've built some houses.

[Henry Mance]

Well, and you're seeing all sorts of cabinet ministers auditioning to keep their jobs. At the moment, the mathematical reality is that there are people around Andy Burnham who we know are going to get jobs. Louise Haig and so on, on. And then there are also. There's also just the fact that he is going to want to demonstrate change. And one way of demonstrating change is by changing a lot of the top personnel, the kinds of voices who come on programs on the BBC on Sundays to describe the government's agenda.

[Victoria Macdonald]

So then they're all starting from scratch on new portfolios. So that takes time then to get something to happen.

[Henry Mance]

It does. But the assumption is that Andy Burnham wants to tweak the direction, traveling quite a lot of those portfolios. So perhaps that might be easier with a new purpose person.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Okay, so I think we now talk about the football because there's only really three talking points in the UK at the moment. One is the weather, the other is the change in Downing street and the other is the football.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Did you stay up?

[Henry Mance]

I did. It wasn't that late. I mean, I guess I was BBC1. Okay, yeah, fair enough. No, I, I did stay up, but what I'm more anxious about, timing wise, and I don't know if many people have clocked. This is if when England beat the Democratic Republic of Congo on Wednesday day, then the round of 16 match is going to be on Monday week at one in the morning.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Right.

[Henry Mance]

Now, is the country going to stay up for that? I mean, I will be, but then I start work a few hours after that, so.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I think the country. Well, I mean, England will stay up. The England supporters, we have to commiserate with Scotland who, who are out.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Yes.

[Henry Mance]

And whose manager, Steve Clark, resigned.

[Victoria Macdonald]

He did, yeah. I mean, I, I love watching England. I've followed them around. I don't know if I'll stay up because BBC Sport are doing this excellent 8 minute high package so you can catch up on with no spoilers. Exactly. Right. So you can catch up every morning over your breakfast. All the games you missed in the middle of the night. So I might have to do that.

[Chris Mason]

But if.

[Victoria Macdonald]

If England get past the.

[Paddy O'Connell]

And spoiler alert, if they go all the way.

[Victoria Macdonald]

All the way? What are you talking about, Paddy?

[Paddy O'Connell]

If.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Do you mean to the final?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Yes.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Am I hearing you right?

[Paddy O'Connell]

Well, I'm just. I've got a. It's not. I'm predicting it, but I'm saying the question would arise which of the two men would represent the Prime Minister. Would be the Prime Minister in. At the World cup if it went to that?

[Victoria Macdonald]

Well, Keir Sama will still be the Prime Minister. He won't be Labour leader, but he

[Paddy O'Connell]

will be Prime Minister.

[Henry Mance]

It would be his last day as Prime Minister. So presumably he'd have to get the red eye back from New York in order to see the King in the morning.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Wow.

[Paddy O'Connell]

So that's. That's. What's the link you see?

[Victoria Macdonald]

No, it's a great link. That's why I hadn't. I'm not as far ahead as you.

[Paddy O'Connell]

I've read the script. On which front we go to Alison, our newscaster, who wants to be the supporter reporter. I'm a Brit living in Brasilia. I've been here for almost 20 years. Football is a religion here. On the day of a Brazil match, many people are allowed to leave work four hours before kickoff. And almost everything closes. This time around the matches is a sensible time for us to watch due to the time difference, naturally. I'm still supporting England. It's coming home. I love your program. I've been listening to it for years. Keep up the great work.

[Chris Mason]

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire?

[David Smith]

From posting videos on Good Bad Billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast made his fortune.

[Chris Mason]

He's buried himself in a coffin for

[David Smith]

days, counted to a hundred thousand on

[Chris Mason]

camera and even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral. The Internet.

[David Smith]

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism

[Chris Mason]

or is he just the king of the attention economy?

[David Smith]

Find out on Good Bad billionaire listen

[Chris Mason]

on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paddy O'Connell]

Just going back to where we started with the other supporter reporter, Henry. That means that the day that we are predicting for the Prime Minister to take office is.

[Henry Mance]

I mean, it's not even prediction. It is confirmed fact now, which is Monday, July 20th.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Yeah.

[Henry Mance]

There is a sl. Slightly odd element to this by the way, which is that the House Commons won't be sitting anymore, so they rise for their summer recess six or so weeks break, the Thursday beforehand. So I was speaking to one MP the other day who has reasonable chances, I think, of being appointed to Andy Burnham's government, who said, as a minister, who said, I've booked a flight for the Friday, which is the day the leadership handover happens, but not the Prime Ministerial handover. So I don't know if they'll be cancelling it in the hope of being appointed. But I mean, you know, I, I doubt anyone's hearts are really going to bleed for mps, but they had been expecting that everything would end then. But also, it just does mean that unless they extend Parliament sitting by a week or so, which they can do, it does mean you won't see Andy Burnham at the dispatch box as Prime Minister until he's been Prime Minister for about six weeks. You won't necessarily have him addressing labor mps, telling them, this is what I'm going to do. So it's a slightly odd time to take over. But then it might also mean that he can spend the summer going out around the country. And we know that as Prime Minister, he wants to spend much more of his time generally in Manchester in particular, but also, I'm sure, around the country.

[Victoria Macdonald]

But he could, could, he could use the, whatever that room is where they built the lectern and the whatever to do a daily press conference. If you remember last summer, reform absolutely exploited the fact that most of the other parties seem to have gone off on holiday and did a press conference almost every day. Now, whether they'll do that this year, I have no idea, especially when there are still questions around the 5 million gift that Nigel Farosh had from the crypto billionaire. I mean, mean, you know, it would seem that whoever takes over is going to have to hit the ground running and show to people that they've hit the ground running. They're going to have to be announcing stuff, aren't they, surely?

[Henry Mance]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people in the Labor Party are waiting to see what Andy Burnham's big few things that he announces in his first few days would be that makes make people go, oh, it is different, this is different. Perhaps an intervention on the cost of living in some form. I think that's sort of near certainty. But whatever it would be, I don't know. But yeah, I think those are crucial days, crucial days that he will be doing without Parliament. Perhaps that makes it easier, as you say, because he can communicate sort of more directly to the nation from that press conference room or elsewhere without having to refer to people as Right Honourable gentlemen and ladies.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Okay, so it's Andy Burnham's speech on the economy coming up on Monday. On Tuesday, the Defence Investment Plan is expected to be published, England vs Dr. Congo on Wednesday. Anything else? Else?

[Henry Mance]

No. Look, I think beyond the Defense Investment plan, government has slowed down deliberately because an edict has gone out. Say they can't make new policy because of the interregnum, so actually suspect it is going to become a quieter period on the government front. In the Labor Party, I think we'll see a lot more public jockeying for position and a lot more rumors, some of them nonsense, some of them turning out to be true, about what a Burnham government would do and what it would look like.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Can I just say that Lucy Powell, who is the deputy leader of labor, we referenced her earlier, said she found the jockeying for position around jobs unedifying, but also said she thought Ed Miliband will be a good chancellor.

[Henry Mance]

Right.

[Paddy O'Connell]

A good tip on which we will leave this edition. But thank you very much for listening. Goodbye.

[Victoria Macdonald]

Thank you. Bye.

[Henry Mance]

Goodbye. Newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, Tell everyone you know and don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on [phone]. Be assured, I promise, we listen to everyone. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire?

[David Smith]

From posting videos on Good Bad Billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune.

[Chris Mason]

He's buried himself in a coffin for

[David Smith]

days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and

[Chris Mason]

even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

[David Smith]

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism,

[Chris Mason]

or is he just the king of the attention economy?

[David Smith]

Find out on Good Bad billionaire listen

[Chris Mason]

on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.