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- [00:00]
Paddy O'Connell
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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- [00:19]
Lisa Bryant
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- [00:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
So, Paddy, for some time we've seen American forces building up a presence around Iran. And early this morning, the attack that had been anticipated for some time began.
- [01:03]
Donald Trump
A short time ago, the United States military began major combat operations in Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating imminent threats from the Iranian regime, a vicious group of very hard, terrible people.
- [01:27]
Paddy O'Connell
We've seen videos from Tehran, the country's capital, of smoke billowing from buildings
- [01:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
and the now familiar sounds of sirens ringing out in Israel,
- [01:40]
Paddy O'Connell
followed by explosions, which the BBC has authenticated across Gulf states where the US has bases.
- [01:48]
Lisa Bryant
Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.
- [01:50]
Laura Kuenssberg
We are talking to you and recording at 12:38 on Saturday. We are in the very early stages, Paddy, but this looks like it could be a very grave chapter in the many chapters of conflict in the Middle East.
- [02:02]
Paddy O'Connell
Newscast.
- [02:03]
Lucy Powell
Newscast from the BBC.
- [02:05]
Clive Myre
Fat boy, slimmer me in the classroom
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Chris Mason
doing our violin lessons.
- [02:08]
Lisa Bryant
I was the tattletale in the classroom.
- [02:09]
Paddy O'Connell
Can I have an apology, please?
- [02:10]
Lisa Bryant
I trust almost nobody that daddy has
- [02:13]
Clive Myre
to sometimes use strong language.
- [02:15]
Lisa Bryant
Next time in Moscow.
- [02:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
I feel delulu with no Salulu Take
- [02:18]
Lisa Bryant
me down the Downing street let's go have a tour.
- [02:22]
MyFico Advertiser
Blimey.
- [02:23]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's Laura in the studio.
- [02:25]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes, hello, it's Paddy in the studio
- [02:27]
Lisa Bryant
and it's Lise to set. Joining Paddy and Laura in the studio at this momentous time.
- [02:35]
Laura Kuenssberg
It feels like a huge daily and we're lucky to have you with us today with all your experience, including your recent experience of being in Iran. Newscasters, A bit later in the program, we will be talking to the deputy labor leader, Lucy Powell, because it's in a huge 36 hours in UK politics too. But of course, all the headlines today are focusing on this new stage of conflict in Iran, which appears to be spreading across the Middle east with retaliation from the Iranians towards Israel and other places, even Abu Dhabi and Riyadh. Also reports of strikes across the region. So let's just take this step by step in the most basic sense, Liz, what is the first thing that happened here?
- [03:15]
Lisa Bryant
At about 6:30 in the morning GMT, we heard the first reports that Israel had attacked Iran. It was described as a preemptive strike. Soon after, we got the first videos from Tehran of plumes of smoke rising from some of the main squares. Then from Israel, the reports of people being told to go into the shelters, of air raid sirens. Just an early warning that nothing was in the air. But just get ready. There's possibly advance warning warning signals. People immediately went into the shelters. Then we got reports, then it escalated. We had reports of many more cities in Iran coming under attack. And then Iran retaliated, not just against Israel, but as you mentioned, against other Arab capitals in Bahrain, in Kuwait, in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, in the uae. One after another. Iran had warned, repeatedly warned, that this time it wouldn't hold back. This time would be different. And especially if it considered that this battle was existential, it would use unprecedented force. And I think this is what we are seeing. President Trump, when he first spoke eight minutes in a post in a video on his truth social platform, making it absolutely clear that as he has often said, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. We will destroy their ballistic missiles. But even more, calling on Iranian security forces to lay down their arms. And if they did, they would have immunity. If they did not, they would face the consequences. Telling the people of Iran to take shelter for now while the bombs are dropping, but when the bombs stopped, to seize the government institutions, this would be their only chance in generations to take power. It's about regime change.
- [05:10]
Donald Trump
Finally. To the great proud people of Iran, I say tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand. Stay sheltered. Don't leave your home. It's very dangerous outside. Bombs will be dropping everywhere. When we are finished, take over your government. It will be yours to take. This will be probably your only chance for generations. For many years you have asked for America's help, but you never got it. No president was willing to do what I am willing to do tonight. Now you have a president who is giving you what you want. So let's see how you respond. America is backing you with overwhelming strength and devastating force. Now is the time to seize control of your destiny and to unleash the prosperous and glorious future that is close within your reach. This is the moment for action. Do not let it pass.
- [06:07]
Lisa Bryant
Bear in mind that even though support has been draining away from the clerical regime, that they still have an ideological corps that will fight to the last breath. They have the elite Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps established in 1979, whose specific mandate is to defend the revolution. Because they didn't trust the army, they thought it was too close to the Shah. You also have the Basiji, which is the volunteer militia. And we saw them on their motorcycles patrolling the streets of Tehran as a warning, telling people, don't come out in the streets. You will know the consequences. They will fight. And it has to be said that in the during that extraordinary wave of protests that was put down with lethal force, causing more casualties, we still don't know the exact, but certainly in the many thousands, many thousands of deaths, we had no reports that there were any defections in the security forces, no reports of any cracks in the regime. But now this is uncharted territory. What is happening now?
- [07:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
And just to spin out for a bit of very, very basic context of what we're talking about here, the Shah was the former monarchy, the monarchy in
- [07:21]
Lisa Bryant
Iran that was brought down 1979 by the Iranian revolution, which then became the Islamic revolution. When Khomeini returned from Paris, and then this broad coalition of left wing and activists, civil society, they all had come together. But it soon became clear that this was an Islamic revolution, Islamists would be in charge.
- [07:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
And the reason that people have been out on the streets in the last few months and also previously in other protests that have been very violently put down is because it is now a repressive regime. It's a regime that many countries in the west don't believe when they say that they're not trying to create a nuclear weapon. So just for that very basic context,
- [08:00]
Lisa Bryant
because let's spell it out too. This is a country three times the size of Iraq. If you look at the last major US led intervention, major military operation, some 92 million people. What we and the this last wave of protests in the recent years, there has been an uprising every few years. They were sparked by the traders in the bazaar who couldn't sell their electronic goods because the currency collapsed. And the Americans later confessed that they did that. They brought about the collapse of the real currency which went into free fall against the dollar. So it began with the traders. It was an economic strike for over their financial woes. The students then joined in. And then the spark lit a huge fire. It spread across many more social classes, people from many different walks of life, and it spread across the country and spiraled into something much bigger. And spe to people last night in the streets and markets and bazaars of Tehran, people would say to me, some people went out for economic reasons. And the government acknowledged there were economic reasons. Some people went out because they were fed up with the corruption and the mismanagement. Others went out because they saw no way to improve their lives but that to bring down the regime. And I have to say, for the very first time in going to decades in Iran, there were people who said to me, I've got nothing to lose. It's not nice to have your country attacked. But an American airstrike is the only way for me to bring down this government and to have a different light. But on the other hand, others really worried and they will be worried today as they try to find shelter. They don't want an attack. It's a country pulling in different directions.
- [09:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
And we're seeing those divisions in some of the videos that are emerging on social media. And it's very hard to verify the material that's coming out. There's often an Internet blackout, which we understand is in place partly today. But when it comes then to the position of the Americans and why Donald Trump has made what is a very audacious statement saying, you know, it is, to use your phrase for America now about regime change for Western allies, including the UK the reason they've had so much concern about Iran is not just because of the repression in the country, but because of Iranian backing of other groups around that region and their connection to whether it's Hezbollah or whether it's Hamas. And of course, even now, we know from the war in Ukraine, you know, Russia and Iran have had strong links too. So this is about that country. But I suppose the reason why Western allies in America has been so forceful in this is they would say that Iran is a regime that is fermenting terror way beyond their own borders.
- [10:35]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, the thing is, the west has got a really bad track record at changing the heads of oil rich states. We don't have enough newscast to go through all the times the west has done this. But what's different here, Lisa, is that Trump has sent a mixed message. For the last three months, he's been on again, off again, and the people of Iran came out thinking he was going to act earlier. I think we could say that's true. So now that he has Acted. Do you understand why? He said this is their last chance for generations. Can you see why from the White House's position, staying off with the armada parked in the sea is not the same message as acting with it? He can't just be in the position of preparing constantly, can he?
- [11:18]
Lisa Bryant
But let's, but let's, we're in the early hours and let's look at how this is being described now. When the first report of Israel strikes came in, it was described as a preemptive strike which suggested that they thought an attack from Iran was imminent. There is no evidence to suggest, no confirmed evidence that Iran was about to attack Israel or was about to do its own preemptive attack against American bases and individuals, some 40,000 U.S. personnel across the region. So they haven't made their case. They haven't provided evidence of that. Attacking another country is also illegal. Remember before, in the run up to the US led invasion of Iraq in 2003, George W. Bush toured the United States. He spoke in many capitals trying to make the case for war. He went to the UN Security Council. He built a coalition of other countries. President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu have done nothing of that. And they will think that this is not. They will, that that is secondary to what President Trump emphasized in his speech, that Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. It's a threat. But there are, and I'm not sure if you want to go through it now, the idea that, for example, in his State of the Union address, President Trump for the first time said that Iran was developing ballistic missiles which could reach the United States, in other words, a direct threat to us. The intelligence assessments, even the US Intelligence assessments, is that Iran is years away from developing intercontinental ballistic missiles. But yes, the idea is, if we can try to understand from what they have said, that they believe Iran is at its weakest. Its so called axis of resistance or axis of fire was degraded, in some ways destroyed around the region in the wake of the Gaza war. Hezbollah is weakened. The Houthis. The Houthis are somewhat weak. Yeah, the Houthis are weakened. The Iraqi militias. The militias, but they're still activ. And they are indicating they will become active. Active too. And they feel the regime is at its weakest. And they saw the protests into the streets. So they feel they have to strike now.
- [13:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
So they see opportunity.
- [13:21]
Lisa Bryant
An opportunity. There is an opportunity. And Prime Minister Netanyahu sees an opportunity with President Trump in the White House. The last thing I will say is I was discussing at the weekend, I was at the. Well, this week I was at the Geneva talks and discussing with people who
- [13:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
are trying to get a.
- [13:35]
Lisa Bryant
Trying to get a diplomacy and bear
- [13:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
in mind Iran's nuclear ambitions.
- [13:38]
Lisa Bryant
Yes, this was a repeat of what happened last year when they were in the middle of negotiations and Israel struck, shattering the negotiating track. And it happened again this time. But discussing with people, President Trump has shown he likes short, sharp, successful operations like in Venezuela. And a lot of the argument has been that he hasn't, that his military chiefs have been telling, look, look, if we start military operations, there's no guarantee we can bring about regime change. It's never happened before in history, as you said, Patty, that you can bring about regime change from the air. It might be messy, it might be viol. But. And there was an assessment that he would go for the short, sharp, successful. Say I've done a nuclear deal better than Obama, but he seems to have gone for the big prize that he wants to be able to say, I have done it. I have ended nearly a half century of enmity with the evil Islamic Republic of Iran that has been threatening us from the very moment it took power. It's a big gamble.
- [14:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
And in terms of then the other decision makers here, because this is about Donald Trump's ambitions, it's also about Benjamin Netanyahu's ambitions. And of course, he's got an election before too long coming up in Israel before October.
- [14:47]
Lisa Bryant
Yeah.
- [14:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
This is something that affects so many different parties here. And I just wonder if you can assess how you think the decision would have been made between Israel and the U.S. you know, what's that relationship really like there? Is this something that they would have plotted and planned together? Would Donald Trump have said, I want to make this move. Will you come with me, BB or other way around? How would you imagine that might have happened?
- [15:14]
Lisa Bryant
Listen, at some point today, I'm sure you've already been asking 10 Downing street, when did they find out? When did President Trump pick up the phone and say to Sir Keir Starmer, a leader he gets along with, that we're going to be doing this?
- [15:26]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, he may not have done. And the UK statement so far has been very careful to say we do not want Iran ever to get its hands on a nuclear weapon. That must not be allowed. But it's interesting, Keir Starmer has stopped short of the kind of backing that's been given from Anthony Albanese, the Australian pm, and also Mark Carney, the Canadian leader, who seems to be more supportive of the American position. So he's walking A very fine line, of course, having just lost a by election to a left wing rival. But that's the story we'll come to in a bit. But it just, just partly because we're about to hear Clive Myre in Tel Aviv. I just wonder if you can explain how you think the decision making would have gone between Israel and America. You know, whose idea would it be to begin with?
- [16:08]
Lisa Bryant
From the beginning, when President Trump returned to the White House for a second time, Prime Minister Netanyahu saw an opportunity. His whole life, one of his driving ambitions is to attack the nuclear installations of Iran, to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. And suddenly he found this ally in President Trump. But it hasn't been easy sailing. You may remember that last year in the very week where Israel launched that carried out that strike which led to the 12 Day War, the week started with President Trump saying to Prime Minister Netanyahu, stop threatening Iran. You're getting in the way of my deal making. But when he saw the success of the Israeli strikes, then he said, oh, it almost made it sound, we did this together. There were reports this week that, that it would be Israel which would strike first and not the United States. And as soon as Israel struck, the first question was, is this a joint operation? Have they done this together? And it quickly became clear that this is a joint operation. There's a very close personal relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu and a very important political relationship. What we saw, finally, I would say what we saw in the Gaza war was that President Trump started listening to other allies, to the Qataris, to the Emiratis, to the Omanis, but in particular to the Qataris. After, after Israel tried to kill Hamas leaders in Qatar, suddenly he was no longer using the talking points of Israel. He pushed Prime Minister Netanyahu to end the Gaza war, to agree to a ceasefire. And we saw this shift. And in recent weeks, the Emiratis, the Qataris have all been either in Washington or on the phone telling President Trump, don't do it. But what we are seeing today is this time Prime Minister Netanyahu prevailed and he has taken his argument. This is my chance to change history. He loves that part. The president who wouldn't, which leader wouldn't want to be history making. But it's a very big gamble.
- [18:04]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, history is all over it from the United States politics as well, because in 1979, the year of the Iranian, then Islamic revolution, Jimmy Carter was the president launching a catastrophic rescue mission of hostages held in the US Embassy in Tehran. And Donald Trump has referenced this because what then happened in the next presidential election is that Ronald Reagan became the president. But it was always seen as one of the defining political fault lines. Whose watch was it on when Iran fell and when our guys were taken is a recurrent theme in American politics. It's not as big as the domestic issues, but it's been there for a long time. So you've perfectly explained how in Israel, the prime minister wants the history, in America, the president wants the history. So we turn to the people and let's talk as well about the people in bomb shelters all over the region, including in Israel, the ones who have bomb shelters, the ones who have them,
- [19:01]
Lisa Bryant
the Iranians don't have them, the Israelis have them. And a lot. If you're living in Dubai, why would you have a bomb shelter? It's, you know, shopping central. These are places everyone is going to be fighting you. And Laura, you keep coming back to this. How will we be affected? What if Iran closes down the Strait of Hormuz, one of the most important waterways where a huge percentage of the oil traffic goes through and all of the goods that reach Britain, if this war drags on and this is not going to be a matter matter of just it's certainly not one day. It's going to be in days and possibly longer. It will be felt all the way to the high streets of Britain.
- [19:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
I notice you use the word war then you are calling this a war.
- [19:38]
Lisa Bryant
Now, there's no indication there's going to be anything else but a war. And for if you're sitting in Iran wondering where to find shelter, if you're sitting in a bomb shelter in Israel, this is a war. I know we sometimes do, we call it a conflict. They've made it clear that this is going to be many days. And just listen carefully to what President Trump said in that speech. His ambitions are, are big. And if you're going to try to bring down the Islamic Republic of Iran, this is a major, major military operation. And no doubt on the ground, we know that Mossad, the Israeli agents as intelligence agency is on the ground. They played such a key role in the assassination of nuclear scientists and security chiefs last time there will be this. I was reading this week that this, the Israelis say this has been years in preparation, rehearsals and Iran has prepared. They learned lessons from the 12 Day War. But you talk about the people. What about the people of the United States, Patti, where the opinion polls show they don't want Parliament, they don't want President Trump to go to war Their concerns are the cost of living crisis, the immigration crisis. Unlike George W. Bush, he hasn't gone to Congress. And there's been criticism by leading Democratic lawmakers saying, you've got to come, to come to Congress, Congress to get authority to launch this war. He hasn't done that. He didn't really make the case for war. Let's see what happens in America as well. They're not going to be running to bomb shelters, but this is not what President Trump's base elected him to do.
- [21:05]
Laura Kuenssberg
Let's then take you into one of those bomb shelters. Our colleague Clive Meyer has been in Tel Aviv and Israel where there have been attacks.
- [21:13]
Clive Myre
Yeah, I'm actually in a bomb shelter which is beneath the hotel where we're staying. And I'm surrounded by, I don't know, scores and scores of families, some from the surrounding area. They're not people who are staying at the hotel. This is a bomb shelter used by everybody. And in fact, a woman is just coming around now. She's making some kind of announcement. I'm not sure what. But no one seems to be moving. So the danger is still imminent, it seems, which is why we're all down here. There are pets, there are dogs, there are. Are families with their children running around. And this is obviously something that a lot of people here are used to. But given the situation now with what seems to be a concerted attack on Iran, not just from the Israelis, but from the Americans, then there are people here who are worried that this could go on for some time.
- [22:05]
Paddy O'Connell
Back to Iran. Where is the leader, the Supreme Leader?
- [22:10]
Lisa Bryant
We are having reports at this time they have targeted the residency offices of the Supreme Leader. Was an attempt to target him, to kill him. There's been reports in American media, quoting Iranian officials that several Revolutionary Guard Corps, several Iranian officials have been killed. We've got no details. We're still getting reports on the targeting. But it would not be surprising given what Israel did on the first day of the 12 day war. It was like nine nuclear scientists in one fell swoop, three security chiefs. It was breathtaking, the intelligence. They. They had to be able to target so many senior people. And no doubt they have done it now. But as we're speaking midday in London, we still are just getting. We. There were also reports that they targeted the President Peskan. And if they're targeting them, they must have been targeting security chiefs as well.
- [23:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
And if the Americans and Israelis were successful, as they might see it, in taking out the Iranian leadership, perhaps even the Supreme Leader, what would the Symbolism of that be lys.
- [23:14]
Lisa Bryant
Well, it's not just symbolism. They have a huge impact. But what we've been hearing from Tehran, what we heard when we were there, is that they've learned the lessons of the 12 Day War. They realized that they are targeted and it came very close last time. And that there had been reports in the New York Times that they prepared a short list for the succession that during the 12 Day War, President the, the Supreme Leader who's supposed to be the ultimate decision making, he prepared a whole level of alternatives. If they take the head of the, the, the senior commander of the irgc, there's another one to step into place. If he's also killed, there's another one in step into place. They have multiple levels of people ready to take charge. And indeed the people who are now in charge this time are ones who have, are quite inexperienced compared to the ones who actually were in charge during the 12 day war. They had to slip into these positions and now they're the ones who are at the command. The way it works in Iran's clerical regime.
- [24:17]
Laura Kuenssberg
Pardon just when you say the 12 Day War, the war last year, summer last year, when things were incredibly intense.
- [24:23]
Lisa Bryant
My opinion of your newscast listeners that I think now that when we say but you're absolutely right, but there is a procedure in Iran. There is what's called the assembly of Experts, senior clerics. Their only job is to choose the next supreme Leader. And there's been discussion amongst these clerics about who would be, they're said to have been for a long time, a shortlist. And that shortlist as they've been looking at it of late, in the midst of what's happening now to ensure a transition, we just don't know what's going to survive at the end of the day.
- [24:55]
Paddy O'Connell
And we are so pleased, Lisa, that you've been joining us for newscast because it's only three weeks ago you were there reporting from Tehran. And it's absolutely unique access for our organization and we're so proud to have you with us. And we'll keep returning to this subject as things develop.
- [25:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
We will. Thank you so much.
- [25:14]
Lisa Bryant
And you know, people say, well, why should we be going? And I have to say that it has reinforced my just being on the ground, being able to and the courage of Iranians. They came up to us. We want you to know what we think. And the way they poured out their emotion. Some people didn't want to talk, especially when there was a television camera. But so in, in a way that I haven't seen before. We want our views to be known in the world. We want our voice. We're angry. We want change. There was such a profound sense that Iran is now a different country and they see that there is a profound yearning for change. I think even at the very top echelons they understand. But is it going to be the question always was and let's now it's different after this morning, will it be change in the regime or will it like we're seeing in Venezuela, or will it be regime change?
- [26:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
Lise, thank you so much indeed. And I'm sure we'll be I hope you'll be back with us very soon.
- [26:14]
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- [27:32]
Laura Kuenssberg
So Paddy, as promised newscasters, we know you're a political nerds like the two of us and we want to talk about the very important big political story in the UK here at home in the last couple of days, which was Labor's defeat at the hands of the Greens into third place also by reform in the Gorton and Denton by election. And I'm pleased to say that we are joined by the deputy City leader of the Labour Party, Lucy Powell, who was on the doors pretty much every day during that campaign. I think. Lucy, welcome to newscast what went wrong.
- [28:03]
Lucy Powell
Well, obviously it was very disappointing result for us and you know, we weren't able to persuade people enough people to, to vote labor or indeed that labor was the best place party to defeat reform. And I think these are trends that we've seen happening and coming for a while. And I think we've obviously now got to reflect further on that and make sure that we act and we adjust course and we listen to what's been said in that by election. I mean, what I would also say is that by elections aren't themselves a sort of predeterminant of a future election. And governing parties do often get defeats in these sorts of by elections. But I don't want to underplay it in, in any sense at all. This is in my own backyard. This is in a kind of labor heartland area and we, we lost.
- [28:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
You've been saying though, and other leading labor figures, but particularly you ran your deputy leadership campaign on saying we have to change course, we have to do things differently. That doesn't seem to have happened, has it?
- [29:11]
Lucy Powell
Well, I think those messages have been heard, but we now need to, to go further and faster and get some urgency around that. I think we've got to be a lot clearer about the purpose of the Labour government, make sure that we are really telling the story about what Labour is doing in this Labour government and whose side we're really on. And that I think will help us to rebuild our voter coalition. Perhaps some of the strategy that's been pursued in the past to, to maybe try and out reform. Reform. I mean, I'm not sure that was actually the case, but that was how it was perceived, you know, is not a successful course for us. And we really do need now to work on rebuilding that broad based voter coalition that we've always represented and that we need to continue to represent.
- [30:00]
Paddy O'Connell
I wonder if you can be as candid as you can be in answer to the question, would Andy Burnham have held the seat for Labour?
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Lucy Powell
Well, he probably would have done because I think certainly the Greens wouldn't have gone after the seat in the same way that they did.
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Paddy O'Connell
So it's back to Keir, isn't it? Because Keir blocked Andy and Keir blocked you. So it's once again we're left asking questions about him.
- [30:27]
Lucy Powell
Well, look, I mean I think the reasons for that decision and the reasons that I stand by because I accept collective responsibility in these things and collective decision making, the rory was not necessarily about this particular by election, but the subsequent by election that therefore would be required for the Greater Manchester Mayor. And I think what we can all sort of take this weekend is that perhaps you don't want that many by elections going forward because it is a challenging sort of time for us. But, but what I would say is, look, let's, let's look at why Andy Burnham is, is particularly popular because he is particularly popular here in Greater Manchester and across the, the north, because I think people do see in him someone on their side, someone who is delivering those Labour values and those Labour policies like more social housing and better buses, more job opportunities, especially for young people. And we have to draw on that, make use of Andy Burnham, but also draw on that and reflect on how we could do that better nationally and better as a government. And I know from talking to Kier many, many times over recent weeks before this, by election and since that that is something he is very focused on, on doing, on how we can give a much clearer account of ourselves and be much clearer and define ourselves by whose side we're on and which vested interests we are taking on in order to, to deliver for ordinary people across the country.
- [31:58]
Laura Kuenssberg
So the Prime Minister needs to be more like Andy Barnum then.
- [32:01]
Lucy Powell
Well, look, let's, let's look, let's learn from Andy and also bring Andy more on board with what we're doing as well. Make better use of Andy Burner.
- [32:09]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah. Because I heard Clive Lewis on Radio 4 saying Labour has gone against children, disabled people, pensioners and he bemoans Pat McFadden saying we've got to win from the centre. He thinks the down street operation's been captured. Do you think the Downing street operation's been captured?
- [32:32]
Lucy Powell
We've seen a lot of changes in the operation there recently as well. What I would say is that of course we've got to rebuild that broad based voter coalition, the kind of progressive alliance, if you like, and make sure that we are absolutely seen as the key people to take on the Farage view of the world. Because there are now two emerging kind of views of the world in domestic politics today. There are those on the right now actually led by Nigel Farage and his sort of Tory wannabes with, with the sort of Tories in, in tow there as well, who think that economically the status quo is fine, that more trickle down economics, that tax breaks for the richest and, and getting rid of workers rights and the equality rights and those kind of things, that's the way to run the economy. But instead they want to blame immigrants and pit neighbor against neighbor and we represent very different political values and a political home. And we say that we need big change in the economy and we need to re country now. We've got to be very clearly the leaders of that voter coalition, of that worldview that says Nigel Farage and is Ilka wrong and that labor values and our values are the right way to change the country. And we haven't done that strongly enough. And we've really got to do that, I think.
- [33:52]
Laura Kuenssberg
But the problem you've got though is that in Gorton and Denton, people looked at you and I know you and lots of other colleagues were on the doors sort of every day. I know that the candidate and the team fought very hard and thought going into it that you might have been okay was the suggestion from the top of the Labour Party. But voters looked at you and thought you're not the leaders of that coalition. Actually, the Greens are the leader of that coalition. So is it now wrong or do you have to shift the strategy that the prime minister's been using for the last six months or so to say, ah, this is a fight between labor and reform? Because it looks quite different after Gorton and Denton. It looks now that you're being squeezed on both sides.
- [34:29]
Lucy Powell
Well, look, obviously the Greens were more effective in making that argument in this particular by election and as I say, sort of by elections have their own kind of chemistry and dynamics at play there that don't necessarily play out then into a general election. I don't think there's any reasonable suggestion that the Greens are going to be forming the government at the next election. I do think sure of that.
- [34:53]
Laura Kuenssberg
When you're three years away, can you. I mean, isn't it the problem.
- [34:55]
Lisa Bryant
Problem.
- [34:55]
Laura Kuenssberg
Some people in your own party were saying to me privately yesterday, part of the problem with how the cabinet responded to this on the record yesterday when Heidi Alexander, the transport Secretary, was sent out to do the the morning round. We're grateful to you for giving us your time this afternoon. But part of the problem was it sounded tenured to say, oh, well, the Greens can't possibly replicate this everywhere. You can't be sure of that. This may be three years to the next general election.
- [35:19]
Lucy Powell
Well, I, I mean, I don't think it is that feasible towards the next election. But look, I'm actually just as interested in today as I am in the tram lines of the next election because it's also about how we're governing in the meantime. It's not just about how we're setting things up for the next election. And we do need to take Nigel farage on today and tomorrow, not just in 2028, 2029. And we've got to take on his politics and we've also got to set out much more strongly. And we have done so some really solid labor things that just wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had a Labour government, you know, lifting the 2 child benefit cap, bringing in the Employment Rights act, you know, renationalizing railway and so on. These are good labor things, but people don't really know about them as well. And we haven't knitted them together in that much clearer story about the diagnosis of what we think is wrong with the country and how we're going about fixing it. And we have got to do that much more, more strongly as we govern. And I think, look, some of the things that maybe Clive Lewis and others have talked about, some of the, the mistakes that we have made in our time in government so far were things that actually weren't in our manifesto.
- [36:28]
Paddy O'Connell
I was going to say lifting the benefit cap on the amount of children wasn't in there either. It took a rebellion for that to happen. Look, can we go.
- [36:37]
Lucy Powell
Actually, it didn't take a rebellion and we've always been clear that that's something we would do when, when finances allowed.
- [36:44]
Paddy O'Connell
Okay, can we go back, Lucy, to Andy Burke Burnham, should he be allowed to stand somewhere else?
- [36:51]
Lucy Powell
Well, there is nowhere else right now. And, and actually, I really don't want there to be another by election anytime soon, if that's at all possible for any of those MPs around the country thinking about that. I, I, if there were, if there
- [37:07]
Laura Kuenssberg
were, though, because it's not impossible.
- [37:09]
Lucy Powell
Well, look, I mean, you know, everyone knows my, my view about that, because everyone knows what decision I took at the, at the time for this particular by election.
- [37:19]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, if people have forgotten, spell it
- [37:21]
Paddy O'Connell
out, what was it?
- [37:23]
Lucy Powell
Well, I was the one person that, you know, that voted for him to be, to be allowed to stand in this by election. But as I say, I stand by collective responsibility, collective agreement. And, you know, what was, what was something that was I take out of the campaign for this by election was that we were able to bring together under one Labour team, a very united message, a very team. Andy Burnham, who was out with us all the time, Keir Starmer came up and, and he was, you know, involved in things throughout. Angela Rayner was there, Wes Streeting was there, the whole cabinet was there. We had one labor team. And that is actually when we can punch through the noise more strongly and tell the story about what we're doing here in Manchester, but also what we're doing around the country. And, and, and I see it as part of my job as the sort of bridge builder in the Labour Party to, to make sure that we continue to work with, and working with Keir Starmer, working with everybody else in the Labour Party, because this is, you know, the stakes are really, really high, not just for ourselves, but for the country. And we've got to get this right. We've got to do better. And that takes us all putting our shoulder to the wheel and not starting to pit once against each other.
- [38:36]
Laura Kuenssberg
And given if, as you say, the stakes are that high, if the Prime Minister can't do better, as you've said, he needs to, to ought he to think about doing something else if you're trounced in the May elections?
- [38:50]
Lucy Powell
Well, I'm not, I, We've got a leader of the Labour Party and, you know, I, I, I'm really clear that we, the last thing we kind of need to do is start really looking in on ourselves and.
- [39:02]
Laura Kuenssberg
Okay.
- [39:03]
Lucy Powell
And, and having those kind of debates, really, because it's gonna, it's very difficult. Running a country is very difficult. Being prime minister is very difficult. And, and, you know, we've got to get the politics right and get the politics more strongly. And that's what I'm going to focus on.
- [39:18]
Paddy O'Connell
Okay. And it's been a, it's a weekend. You've joined us on a Saturday. It's really nice of you. These are, these are difficult questions. And the one I wanted to kind of end on is that we newscasters know you care. You went into politics to change people's lives. You are a person of conviction. So whether our listeners like Labour or not, they know that that's who they're listening to. And I just wonder if you can let me in. I went campaigning, I went watching, campaigning and canvassing MPT today. Can you let me in on how exhausting it's been, what it's been like 18 months or more of Labour government? Government seems to look really difficult. You weren't very sympathetic to the Conservatives when it was their time, but do you feel more sympathetic to the Conservatives now that you've had a go?
- [40:01]
Lucy Powell
Well, the government, I think, is probably hard in any times, but I think it's particularly hard right now. And I'm not saying that because I want any sort of sympathy for it.
- [40:11]
Paddy O'Connell
No, it's my question.
- [40:12]
Lucy Powell
We're being paid, that's what we're being paid to. And it's something we want to do. But I think when you look at what's happening around the world, I mean even, even this, this weekend, when you, the, the, the kind of world order is, is moving and changing so, so fast. Alliances and conflicts and escalations and, and trade wars and tariffs and all of that, when you look at what's happening around the world, it's moving really fast. Then you look at what we've inherited domestic domestically as well after 15 years of the, the Tories and austerity and then coming out of COVID you know, these big shocks that have come along that have left people and our public services much, much the poorer and this is the agenda that we have inherited and, and yeah, it's a lot to kind of turn around and change as quickly as people rightly want to see it happening. And you know, politics is moving very fast, government is very slow and we've got to get better at matching those two things up.
- [41:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
And it is hard work as you've just explained. And we're very grateful to you for giving us your time on a Saturday afternoon. People might think you deserve a night out and I think you're getting one. Going to the Brits in Manchester tonight with a few other familiar faces including I think Andy Barnum. Who are you looking forward to seeing the most? Have you had to look at the set list?
- [41:29]
Lucy Powell
Well, I have. I mean look, it's the first time the Brits is, is leaving London in over 50 years. It's coming here to Manchester. It's a massive coup for us coming to my constituency. Have to go. I'm obliged to go of course, as you. It's really a tough life. I'm taking my 16 year old daughter who thankfully knows all the acts. I know a few. I'm particularly looking forward to Ray and Harry Styles which is a bit more kind of Facebook mums I think is what we're called these days. And my teenage daughter will enjoy all the other acts that I haven't ever heard of.
- [42:01]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah, I mean his, his journey to the mainstream has been fabulous to watch. Harry Styles, he was on the front pages of one of the Sunday magazines.
- [42:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
You mean charity to the mainstream from boy band, from like Saturday night reality tv. What are you talking about?
- [42:15]
Paddy O'Connell
Well, it's just Lucy's talking about Facebook mums. I don't think Facebook mums were his first. The fans at first. His first?
- [42:20]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, I'm not sure. Facebook Mums with 10 year old daughters I think had quite an eye.
- [42:25]
Lucy Powell
He was pre TikTok though, wasn't he? He was sort of pre era.
- [42:28]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah. Here we are. This is very embarrassing for me. The other thing, the other thing I'll say is that I'm a great thief and I'm going to steal. What you said to us in your last answer, which was.
- [42:38]
Laura Kuenssberg
I could guess which bit it was.
- [42:40]
Paddy O'Connell
Politics is very fast. Government is very sl. You go, I'm going to be saying that in my career. And it was Lucy Powell who said,
- [42:47]
Lucy Powell
you can trademark it.
- [42:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
There you go. There was another one. A senior, a senior Conservative said to me early this morning, said, this is a difficult time for sensible people.
- [42:57]
Paddy O'Connell
That should be the strap line of
- [42:59]
Laura Kuenssberg
this is quite good as well, Lucy.
- [43:01]
Lucy Powell
Well, I'll try and not be sensible tonight maybe.
- [43:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yeah, don't be sensible tonight. Have a great night at the Brits. And we are really grateful to you for joining us on Saturdays newscast.
- [43:10]
Lucy Powell
Thank you.
- [43:11]
Paddy O'Connell
Thank you.
- [43:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, Patty, wasn't that interesting, especially Lucy Pell's answer. Very honest answer, I think, to your question about whether or not Andy Burnham would have won it for Labor.
- [43:23]
Paddy O'Connell
I mean, that's amazing. Bit of what ifery it is.
- [43:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
And politics and political chat is very often full of what ifery. But the reason she said, which I'd suspect is probably correct, is the Greens wouldn't have gone after that seat seat in the same way that they did very aggressively, if Andy Barnum had been standing. If, on the other hand, Andy Barnum had stood and held it in another bit of water free this week, the Labour Party might be consumed with whether or not Andy Burnham was going to strike and when he arrived in Parliament next week, stand up and say he was going to run against Keir Starmer and he should shuffle off this mortal political coil.
- [44:00]
Paddy O'Connell
It's all fraught, isn't it? I mean, I imagine you, I think, were the one who said we got these two blocks in multi party politics. I said, oh, yeah, multiple. And you said, hang on. Last year you said, I think we're moving into two or three blocks. Lucy Powell said they said the same thing.
- [44:15]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes. It's Duplo, not a rainbow.
- [44:17]
Paddy O'Connell
Yeah. You know what the editor has said as he shut up? Yeah. He knocked over his hip flask and he said, wrap it up. I think that's very rude.
- [44:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's very rude.
- [44:25]
Paddy O'Connell
I was listening to you and I think you should take it up.
- [44:27]
Lisa Bryant
Change.
- [44:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, I'll carry on. What are you doing tomorrow?
- [44:30]
Paddy O'Connell
You just fade you down. We've got Lord Kinnock on our panel.
- [44:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
Ah, very good.
- [44:35]
Paddy O'Connell
Should be exciting. And we will cover the breaking news from The Middle East.
- [44:39]
Laura Kuenssberg
Yes. So we will be bringing people the the very latest on what's happening in the Middle East. I would say things are incredibly fluid, but I do know we will play tomorrow on the program a conversation I was very lucky to have last week with Tracy Emin, which was just as wonderful as you might have imagined it to be. And I say that not as a high end art buff at all, just someone who has heard of her and watched her and followed her as one of this most celebrated creative people alive. And it's an amazing conversation. And we filmed it sitting next to the big mucky bed.
- [45:10]
Paddy O'Connell
Yes, her bed looks a lot like mine, actually, I have to say.
- [45:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, her bed, she said, would look very, very different now, which is part of our conversation. Should it be all tidy? Anyway? So we're doing that and then you'll have to wait till tomorrow because everything's all very up in the air.
- [45:21]
Paddy O'Connell
It is. Okay, so we say thank you very much indeed for listening to Saturday's Newscast. We hope you'll join us tomorrow.
- [45:27]
Lucy Powell
Goodbye.
- [45:27]
Paddy O'Connell
Newscast.
- [45:28]
Lucy Powell
Newscast from the BBC.
- [45:30]
Chris Mason
Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly copyright Chris Mason Ooze Stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Don't forget, you can email us anytime. It's newscastbc.co.uk and if you would like to join our Discord community to talk about everything newscast related, there is a link in the description of this podcast and don't be scared. It's super easy to click on it and then get set up. Or you can WhatsApp us on 033-01-239480 and I promise you we read and listen to every single message. Thanks for listening to this podcast.
- [46:10]
Lucy Powell
Bye.
- [46:17]
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